Simple question for those who are not in a PvP Fleet:
Would you PvP more if there was no PvP Fleets or PvP Premades in matches?
I answered this in your other thread .. BTW.. It's good to see you're still around.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with PvP fleets. Not every fleet is a classic act. Some are simply better than others. A GOOD FLEET (or guild as the case may be) .. is well balanced, the communicate well with each other, and even know how to have fun in the process.
yes some of them are very cocky and can be mouthy at times. NOT ALL are.
Me personally: From what I've read by many of these some team players STO (in their opinion) is so easily played ESPECIALLY in PVE (even the HIGHEST setting) .. that frankly if a player is unable to master PvE at that highest setting ... frankly there is little reason to bother showing up. That seems to be the general concensious. That said: right now Advanced is about the best I can do CONSISTANTLY !! I can survive at the other setting ... but not mastered as yet. Frankly at my age ... I guess I've slowed down a bit. I really do miss PvP ... hey ! I'll get there ..eventually.
I'm not about to blaim others for my lack of skill. (aka old age ).
i would pvp the same amount regardless. technically i am the leader of a PVP fleet but i can only count a handful of times i have actually been in a DBD premade. I end up joining other fleets/groups and sometimes using OPVP/other vent sometimes not. PVP fleets are in a word:good. At the end of the day, good players will flock to other good players when they want high quality PVP combat, whether they are fleeted or unaffiliated. The best matches I have been in were fought between amalgamations of the top players from different fleets. Not to take anything away from GOD, s31 DOB or the rest, but just "being in a pvp premade fleet" doesnt make u a good player. If anything it broadens your horizons, enhances your experience, exposes you to diferent tactics, and increases your KNOWLEDGE. Clearly more high game pvp practice increases skill, but there is definitely a hard limit to how much simply being on a good team can do for you. It just so happens that how the cookie has crumbled leaves the majority of "nutter" type dedicated players in a small group of fleets. That doesnt make the game less fun, imho, it makes the game. I can recall dozens of times people have said on vent or in chat "oh ****,DOB again, gdamnit" or insert any other elite fleet in its place, u get the idea. PREMADE PVP FTW!
I answered this in your other thread .. BTW.. It's good to see you're still around.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with PvP fleets. Not every fleet is a classic act. Some are simply better than others. A GOOD FLEET (or guild as the case may be) .. is well balanced, the communicate well with each other, and even know how to have fun in the process.
yes some of them are very cocky and can be mouthy at times. NOT ALL are.
Me personally: From what I've read by many of these some team players STO (in their opinion) is so easily played ESPECIALLY in PVE (even the HIGHEST setting) .. that frankly if a player is unable to master PvE at that highest setting ... frankly there is little reason to bother showing up. That seems to be the general concensious. That said: right now Advanced is about the best I can do CONSISTANTLY !! I can survive at the other setting ... but not mastered as yet. Frankly at my age ... I guess I've slowed down a bit. I really do miss PvP ... hey ! I'll get there ..eventually.
I'm not about to blaim others for my lack of skill. (aka old age ).
Yeah, I'm still around. But really I'm starting to waver in my loyality.
In general there is nothing really wrong with PvP Fleets, but when you have PvP Fleets against the causal player, it's always a massacre. And it's starting to effectively parallel gang warfare (no joke).
People are so intimidated that when they see a PvP fleet as their opponents, they give up and surrender. Just to get the match over with, so they can claim their Marks and move on. Some people don't even really bother with Marks of Honor outside of War Zones. Because they are tired of it.
So thats why I feel that if these PvP Fleets get their own little queues, would the casual player return? Or is PvP effectively dead?
I would pvp exactly the same, who cares about pvp fleets anyway ? except those 100 people in them. Seriously, i cannot remember when i met organized pvp fleet in a PuG past month or so... i remember playing one game agains GoD with my fed and once i have met Faithborn and his gang both in cracked planetoid for dailies...and that is...if i didnt need the arena for marks, i wouldnt met them. Oh there was one CaH full of people from 23rd ? or was it 27th ? or 29th ? but they did play on both sides against each other. On my klingon i havent met a single premade agains me, and i was pvping last weekend pretty much both days.
PvP Fleets. I think I fought one. Once. I think it was GoD. I lost. Ban PvP fleets.
Then ban all other players that I lost to.
More seriously - I am not in a PvP fleet. I am carefully interested in doing so. But I shy way a little on the time investment and so on. It feels to me that removing PvP fleets would be a terrible thing to do - I imagine there would be less players overall in the queues. I wouldn't like that at all.
I would certainly not PvP more without PvP fleets. I can't PvP much more than I do now anyway. I don't even care to run Exploration Dailies most of the time.
Can we have a que for Christians, Wiccans, Africans, the chinese, People who love cats, S&M fans--- I'm mean since the OP is asking for segregation and all?
While I respectully dissagree with the OP and his some what misguided feelings on the subject ... IMHO this is a bit over the top as well.
Some folks just don't like "gang banging" I've been there in other games ... NOT GOOD !
By that same token, I don't think it is good to punish those good fleets that also happen to be good at PvP as well. There are a couple of games that have found a good balance in the matter. Believe it or not there are folks on STO who even gripe about that as well.
In short I find that both extremes on PvP are often exactly that ... the truth is some where in the middle.
I don't pretend to have all the answers for PvP ... I wish I did. Just the same, perhaps having different "styles" or "types" of PvP would work ? (just suggesting stuff )
No actually it doesn't bother me to face premade pvp groups,the thing that BOTHERS me a lot though is my pug teammates going afk or using their cloking device of their galaxy class the whole match,i know guys you are doing it for the medals as i do but at least GO DOWN FIGHTING.
I think it's time for cryptic to implement a minimum requirement on damage/healing to get the medals or the daily mission accomplished.
let them have there fleets i alwayse random group till i get a good group then we stick together and whoop randoms and fleets alike,they act like vent gives them this great indistructable advantage,but you know what
? they get whooped just the same, i wouldnt pvp any more or any less if they got rid of pvp fleets
While I respectully dissagree with the OP and his some what misguided feelings on the subject ... IMHO this is a bit over the top as well.
Some folks just don't like "gang banging" I've been there in other games ... NOT GOOD !
By that same token, I don't think it is good to punish those good fleets that also happen to be good at PvP as well. There are a couple of games that have found a good balance in the matter. Believe it or not there are folks on STO who even gripe about that as well.
In short I find that both extremes on PvP are often exactly that ... the truth is some where in the middle.
I don't pretend to have all the answers for PvP ... I wish I did. Just the same, perhaps having different "styles" or "types" of PvP would work ? (just suggesting stuff )
I was merely expressing my incredilous disbelief at the idea of segregated pvp in the most outrageous way possible to drive the point home that putting a caste system on pvp will do nothing but harm the game in the long run, becuase it would not remove griefing in the game.
Secondly the OP is not talking about griefing- he's expressing the fact that he doesn't like being defeated by pre-made pvp teams from pvp fleets in the match system. WHile it can suck to go against a well made team, they are not undefeatible or over-powered. I have been in several PuG's who have defeated pre-mades in pvp and dislike the hidden agenda of OP's thread.
Teamwork can not be taught or controlled by the developers, but it can be taught by those who PUG. If the players want to have more fun in pvp against pre-mades then PUG'ers will have to step up, lead and learn to work together.
I have a vague feeling on the back of my mind guys, that someone has a deep and strange obsession with every organization of players that directly or indirectly includes the acronym "PVP".
I have a vague feeling on the back of my mind guys, that someone has a deep and strange obsession with every organization of players that directly or indirectly includes the acronym "PVP".
Has anybody else felt anything similar lately?
I think the OP was posing a hypothetical question, we all know that as long as there is pvp, there will be groups who specialise in it.
I think the OP's question should be treated as such - Hypothetically.
And so far the majority are cool with pvp focused folk.
No game has ever totally separated the group queues from solo players in a PvP context. The closest one has come is WoW, where people who queue as a group are more likely to be matched against other groups; that is, the queueing algorithm is intelligent enough to match group against group when possible.
That only works when you have a very large number of people PvPing. STO does not. Separating group queues from solo queues would destroy PvP in this game completely. It's a horrible idea. Learn to play and win, rather than trying to change the game to suit your personal preference.
I think the question ultimately boils down to this:
Would PvP be better without people really interested in PvP?
I guess that's a variant of "If a tree falls in the wood and no one is around, does it make a noise?"
I think we all know the poor op is pretty much on a crusade against anything he feels gives anyone else he plays against an advantage over him. BOPS Vent Organizatios... I forget everything he feels is Over Powered but I'm sure there is more.
STO is NOT a hard game to do well in. I am not saying it doesn't take skill to be very good... but it does not take a ton of skill to be competitive.
The ops posts are not completely unintelligent which is why its so frustrating that he seems to refuse so much good advise he has gotten on these forums.
The idea of a smarter que system that would pull teams over pug if possible is not a terrible idea... if the game pop would make it work. Which right now it does not.
I would much rather get a game when my fleet is not around and I have qued up myself then having the teams queing up and me never getting a game. I would rather be the one pug player on the team and have at it.
A fleet VS pug is not always a face roll... yes the pug will very rarely win. However there are degrees of winning. Thanks to the current que system I have been in plenty of 5 on 2; 4 on 3 or the odd 4 on 1.
I never give up and if I can finnish one of those with a score like a 15 to 10 loss... I consider it a victory. It can also be fun. In any event I'm am straying from the topic the op threw down.
NO we do not need any divisive que system.
Yes I would PvP just as much... there are so few klinks; I would team with the same people anyway. lol
If this game ever reaches a population that would suppot a smarter que system that would pull teams and still allow pug people to get a match when then want one... then cryptic can look into a smarter que system.
As for your second, lets put it this way, nobody likes getting curbstomped. And people tend to actually have fun in PvP when people are even.
PvP fleets vs PvP Fleets
PuGs against PuGs
1 on 1s
But I've yet to see a PuG enjoy fighting a PvP Fleet. It's usually ends up people throwing in the towel, not respawning, or suicide attacks.
Well I am not saying I don't see your point... to a point. (I think that makes sense)
I think that the real issue is Expectations. If you do PvP once in a while you can't expect to win 50/50... or even 25/75. I know your post wasn't about balance... however not being able to win more then a 1/4 or your matches when you very rarely do something is not odd behaviour. I very rarely play basketball I'm not going to go down to the local gym for a pickup game and expect to be MJ. That dosn't mean I can't have fun playing.
We have all been in uneven matches number wise, hopefuly the 2.0 que is better that way.
However being mis matched in numbers or skill is no reason to stop playing and give up.
As I mentioned in my previous post people should Change their Expectations. Consider getting a couple kills on a good team a victory.
One type of match we all remember the most are matches where the other side pulls a few suprises and swings a few kills. Against another team we know pretty much what to expect. A pug that pulls things together (even if only for a moment) and scores a good blow is a TON of fun.
I have also been on the other side of things where I am playing a few pug matches for fun and run into a team or a semi team of targets. Giving those teams a workout for their win is fun as well, you don't have to have ultimate victory for PvP to be FUN. That is what we are here for after all.
Anyway, thanks for answering my questions. You do seem intelligent, keep practicing and trying new things. I am sure you have the ability to be competitive, and more competitive players in this game will do the most to fix the issue you are perceiving. (ie. If the majority of pugs start having one or two competitive players... fewer people will feel steamrolled)
As for your second, lets put it this way, nobody likes getting curbstomped. And people tend to actually have fun in PvP when people are even.
PvP fleets vs PvP Fleets
PuGs against PuGs
1 on 1s
But I've yet to see a PuG enjoy fighting a PvP Fleet. It's usually ends up people throwing in the towel, not respawning, or suicide attacks.
I understand what you are saying ... but IMHO it is not the fault of the well organized fleet ... they should not be punished for doing a good job at what they do. Yet to a degree that is essentially what you are sugggesting. (at least from a certain stand point of view)
I may be the fartherst thing from the kind of player I want to be on this forum .... yet , I still respect their skill and team play.
IMHO a part of the problem is that there are not enough ques with LARGER numbers available.
I DO agree with the idea that PvP should be "tiered" ... matching rank with rank. ie: RA-5 (current top rank) with RA-5. OR: Captain with Captain. Other wise you end up with a very lop-sided out of balance que.
Also: the larger numbered ques would have a tendancy to be more forgiving where there is perhaps an imbalance of player "classes" (ie: not enough healer types). IMHO this is ALSO where smaller ques that have all (or mostly all ) one fleet within that que. A well ran fleet has a balance of players in each category and usually do a pretty good job at those stations. IF the QUE were for 25 to 40 players ... that same quild or fleet would still be there .. BUT it would be a PART of that que .. and not totally dominating it. IMHO that would even the odds a bit. It is unlikely that there that many guilds that large.
these are just my thoughts and opinions. It should also be noted that I have no problem with fleets sticking togeather in PvP. I use to be active in that very thing. It is fun !
I will return to PvP ... I just need to get past the initial reluctance.
I'm in a fleet that is terribly inactive and all I do is PuGs (aside from occasionally hanging out for a few extra matches with a PuG that becomes like a permade, right?). When we hit a premade we give it our all and whatever the result (which can be rather embarrassing) I queue up for the next match and maybe things go my way again. I don't have a problem getting stomped by people who are more organized and better than I am. I just hopefully get a little better, lol.
Comments
I answered this in your other thread .. BTW.. It's good to see you're still around.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with PvP fleets. Not every fleet is a classic act. Some are simply better than others. A GOOD FLEET (or guild as the case may be) .. is well balanced, the communicate well with each other, and even know how to have fun in the process.
yes some of them are very cocky and can be mouthy at times. NOT ALL are.
Me personally: From what I've read by many of these some team players STO (in their opinion) is so easily played ESPECIALLY in PVE (even the HIGHEST setting) .. that frankly if a player is unable to master PvE at that highest setting ... frankly there is little reason to bother showing up. That seems to be the general concensious. That said: right now Advanced is about the best I can do CONSISTANTLY !! I can survive at the other setting ... but not mastered as yet. Frankly at my age ... I guess I've slowed down a bit. I really do miss PvP ... hey ! I'll get there ..eventually.
I'm not about to blaim others for my lack of skill. (aka old age ).
Shush, go get shot at.
Yeah, I'm still around. But really I'm starting to waver in my loyality.
In general there is nothing really wrong with PvP Fleets, but when you have PvP Fleets against the causal player, it's always a massacre. And it's starting to effectively parallel gang warfare (no joke).
People are so intimidated that when they see a PvP fleet as their opponents, they give up and surrender. Just to get the match over with, so they can claim their Marks and move on. Some people don't even really bother with Marks of Honor outside of War Zones. Because they are tired of it.
So thats why I feel that if these PvP Fleets get their own little queues, would the casual player return? Or is PvP effectively dead?
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~GM Tiyshen
Then ban all other players that I lost to.
More seriously - I am not in a PvP fleet. I am carefully interested in doing so. But I shy way a little on the time investment and so on. It feels to me that removing PvP fleets would be a terrible thing to do - I imagine there would be less players overall in the queues. I wouldn't like that at all.
I would certainly not PvP more without PvP fleets. I can't PvP much more than I do now anyway. I don't even care to run Exploration Dailies most of the time.
Seriously I am not in a pvp fleet I do pvp and have succes at it and most important I have fun.
While I respectully dissagree with the OP and his some what misguided feelings on the subject ... IMHO this is a bit over the top as well.
Some folks just don't like "gang banging" I've been there in other games ... NOT GOOD !
By that same token, I don't think it is good to punish those good fleets that also happen to be good at PvP as well. There are a couple of games that have found a good balance in the matter. Believe it or not there are folks on STO who even gripe about that as well.
In short I find that both extremes on PvP are often exactly that ... the truth is some where in the middle.
I don't pretend to have all the answers for PvP ... I wish I did. Just the same, perhaps having different "styles" or "types" of PvP would work ? (just suggesting stuff )
I think it's time for cryptic to implement a minimum requirement on damage/healing to get the medals or the daily mission accomplished.
? they get whooped just the same, i wouldnt pvp any more or any less if they got rid of pvp fleets
I was merely expressing my incredilous disbelief at the idea of segregated pvp in the most outrageous way possible to drive the point home that putting a caste system on pvp will do nothing but harm the game in the long run, becuase it would not remove griefing in the game.
Secondly the OP is not talking about griefing- he's expressing the fact that he doesn't like being defeated by pre-made pvp teams from pvp fleets in the match system. WHile it can suck to go against a well made team, they are not undefeatible or over-powered. I have been in several PuG's who have defeated pre-mades in pvp and dislike the hidden agenda of OP's thread.
Teamwork can not be taught or controlled by the developers, but it can be taught by those who PUG. If the players want to have more fun in pvp against pre-mades then PUG'ers will have to step up, lead and learn to work together.
good vintage fedwhine
Ohhh and btw NERF TEAMWORK make everyone play solo this is an MMO if you dont like fleets go play a single player game...
No, about the same I think.
I do like to get it handed to me now and then, it reminds me that I'm not as good as I might sometimes think.
I wish I could pewpew like some, or heal like others, and only in playing them do I see it done, to know what to work towards.
Also in my experience most of them are gracious in victory and give credit where due. In some cases they will offer advice also.
There's nothing like a good pat on the back after having your colon stomped
Has anybody else felt anything similar lately?
I think the OP was posing a hypothetical question, we all know that as long as there is pvp, there will be groups who specialise in it.
I think the OP's question should be treated as such - Hypothetically.
And so far the majority are cool with pvp focused folk.
That only works when you have a very large number of people PvPing. STO does not. Separating group queues from solo queues would destroy PvP in this game completely. It's a horrible idea. Learn to play and win, rather than trying to change the game to suit your personal preference.
Would PvP be better without people really interested in PvP?
I guess that's a variant of "If a tree falls in the wood and no one is around, does it make a noise?"
STO is NOT a hard game to do well in. I am not saying it doesn't take skill to be very good... but it does not take a ton of skill to be competitive.
The ops posts are not completely unintelligent which is why its so frustrating that he seems to refuse so much good advise he has gotten on these forums.
The idea of a smarter que system that would pull teams over pug if possible is not a terrible idea... if the game pop would make it work. Which right now it does not.
I would much rather get a game when my fleet is not around and I have qued up myself then having the teams queing up and me never getting a game. I would rather be the one pug player on the team and have at it.
A fleet VS pug is not always a face roll... yes the pug will very rarely win. However there are degrees of winning. Thanks to the current que system I have been in plenty of 5 on 2; 4 on 3 or the odd 4 on 1.
I never give up and if I can finnish one of those with a score like a 15 to 10 loss... I consider it a victory. It can also be fun. In any event I'm am straying from the topic the op threw down.
NO we do not need any divisive que system.
Yes I would PvP just as much... there are so few klinks; I would team with the same people anyway. lol
If this game ever reaches a population that would suppot a smarter que system that would pull teams and still allow pug people to get a match when then want one... then cryptic can look into a smarter que system.
Are you refearing to Fed OR Klink fleets?
Are you sure the people you are having issues with are even in the same fleets ?
As for your second, lets put it this way, nobody likes getting curbstomped. And people tend to actually have fun in PvP when people are even.
PvP fleets vs PvP Fleets
PuGs against PuGs
1 on 1s
But I've yet to see a PuG enjoy fighting a PvP Fleet. It's usually ends up people throwing in the towel, not respawning, or suicide attacks.
Well I am not saying I don't see your point... to a point. (I think that makes sense)
I think that the real issue is Expectations. If you do PvP once in a while you can't expect to win 50/50... or even 25/75. I know your post wasn't about balance... however not being able to win more then a 1/4 or your matches when you very rarely do something is not odd behaviour. I very rarely play basketball I'm not going to go down to the local gym for a pickup game and expect to be MJ. That dosn't mean I can't have fun playing.
We have all been in uneven matches number wise, hopefuly the 2.0 que is better that way.
However being mis matched in numbers or skill is no reason to stop playing and give up.
As I mentioned in my previous post people should Change their Expectations. Consider getting a couple kills on a good team a victory.
One type of match we all remember the most are matches where the other side pulls a few suprises and swings a few kills. Against another team we know pretty much what to expect. A pug that pulls things together (even if only for a moment) and scores a good blow is a TON of fun.
I have also been on the other side of things where I am playing a few pug matches for fun and run into a team or a semi team of targets. Giving those teams a workout for their win is fun as well, you don't have to have ultimate victory for PvP to be FUN. That is what we are here for after all.
Anyway, thanks for answering my questions. You do seem intelligent, keep practicing and trying new things. I am sure you have the ability to be competitive, and more competitive players in this game will do the most to fix the issue you are perceiving. (ie. If the majority of pugs start having one or two competitive players... fewer people will feel steamrolled)
I understand what you are saying ... but IMHO it is not the fault of the well organized fleet ... they should not be punished for doing a good job at what they do. Yet to a degree that is essentially what you are sugggesting. (at least from a certain stand point of view)
I may be the fartherst thing from the kind of player I want to be on this forum .... yet , I still respect their skill and team play.
IMHO a part of the problem is that there are not enough ques with LARGER numbers available.
I DO agree with the idea that PvP should be "tiered" ... matching rank with rank. ie: RA-5 (current top rank) with RA-5. OR: Captain with Captain. Other wise you end up with a very lop-sided out of balance que.
Also: the larger numbered ques would have a tendancy to be more forgiving where there is perhaps an imbalance of player "classes" (ie: not enough healer types). IMHO this is ALSO where smaller ques that have all (or mostly all ) one fleet within that que. A well ran fleet has a balance of players in each category and usually do a pretty good job at those stations. IF the QUE were for 25 to 40 players ... that same quild or fleet would still be there .. BUT it would be a PART of that que .. and not totally dominating it. IMHO that would even the odds a bit. It is unlikely that there that many guilds that large.
these are just my thoughts and opinions. It should also be noted that I have no problem with fleets sticking togeather in PvP. I use to be active in that very thing. It is fun !
I will return to PvP ... I just need to get past the initial reluctance.
OP - L2P
Can you elaborate? To my knowledge, the amount of noteworthy PVP players that have left is exactly zero.