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A CANON Alternative to Cloak!

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I see alot of comments pro/con with the feds getting cloaking. Both sides make their points heard and are passionate in their stances. Of course I understand that many Klingon players feel the feds should not be getting a cloak.

With that being said, instead using cloak, why dont we give the feds the Stealth Technology as seen in the finale of ST Voyager.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stealth_technology

The Ep gave no indication of violating any treaties or pacts. In fact the klingons and the feds were good allies in the timeline, except for that bit with Janeway. The Ability can have different cooldowns or w/e the community desires. And before anyone objects to it being in an alt timeline....we seem to be fond of things of other timelines or universes as long as it serves us doesnt it haha jk =p

Simple, canon soln, done.

Anyways just putting this out there for discussion. Off to go pretend to care about class...
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    i would say that any form of stealth technology that makes you invisible to sensors is a cloak. im not sure if it makes you physically invisible like a cloak but its doing the same job.

    either way im not sure how you put that it the game without making the ship disappear like a cloak unless it just gets rid of the arrows on the mini map, or the boxes around your ship. so they players can only detect you by visually looking for your ship.

    besides it might have been a cloak admiral janeway did not really care about destroying the correct timeline so i doubt she cared about the treaty if it was still in effect
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    indeed, i'm sure there are many ways to come to a alternative. Another example I can think up off the top of my head is that phase cloaking thing that lets your ship pass through objects, i forget what episode though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I suppose it all depends on how the targeting system works. If the ship is still visible but 'off' sensors, could you still target it? As I recall doesn't scramble sensors cause the ship you are fighting to visually 'cloak'?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Gapaxbr wrote: »
    indeed, i'm sure there are many ways to come to a alternative. Another example I can think up off the top of my head is that phase cloaking thing that lets your ship pass through objects, i forget what episode though.

    The oft quoted in these forums 'The Pegasus.' Phase cloaks are a violation of the treaty of Algeron if you remember the end of that episode too so its not much a work around :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Theres one simple problem.

    a) When Janeway did it in 2404, i don't think she was worried about trouble from the Romulans cuz she wasn't coming back. She was acting on behalf on Starfleet....she was stealing from them and acting illegally.

    b) Second, it was an alternate timeline, so for all we know the Treaty with the Romulans collapsed by 2404 in that time period.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Anichent wrote: »
    Theres one simple problem.

    a) When Janeway did it in 2404, i don't think she was worried about trouble from the Romulans cuz she wasn't coming back. She was acting on behalf on Starfleet....she was stealing from them and acting illegally.

    b) Second, it was an alternate timeline, so for all we know the Treaty with the Romulans collapsed by 2404 in that time period.

    Yeah the thing is though, if the treaty prohibits cloaking technology, Starfleet/Janeway had developed new stealth technology, along with torps and armour, in essence bypassing the treaty altogether. Starfleet found an alternative basically. We dont know if the treaty with romulans collapsed because it does not reference it.

    The tricky part is finding out a new game mechanic to implement using the proposed stealth technology.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Gapaxbr wrote: »
    Yeah the thing is though, if the treaty prohibits cloaking technology, Starfleet/Janeway had developed new stealth technology, along with torps and armour, in essence bypassing the treaty altogether. Starfleet found an alternative basically. We dont know if the treaty with romulans collapsed because it does not reference it.

    The tricky part is finding out a new game mechanic to implement using the proposed stealth technology.

    Well at present, has anything really talked about the current state of political affairs between the Federation and the Romulan factions? I know some things are touched on in the game, but at the same time, if there are any treaties in effect I am flying my armed starship deep in sovereign territory under a flag not that nations....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    it the all good things timeline, the romulans had been conquered by the klingons and the feds had cloak as there was no treaty any more, the same thing could have been in the endgame timeline, that the treay was gone and the feds had their own cloak or something similar, until janeway changed it creating this timeline but the klingon never conquered the romulans so we still have the treaty....for now
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    castmodean wrote: »
    The oft quoted in these forums 'The Pegasus.' Phase cloaks are a violation of the treaty of Algeron if you remember the end of that episode too so its not much a work around :)

    The problem with the phase cloak is that it calls into question what exactly does the Treaty of Algeron ban. Technically speaking, the Pegasus cloak made the ship invisible because the whole ship was out of phase with the normal universe, so that light and other EM waves also pass through the ship. It doesn't actually use true romulan/klingon cloak technology, i assume the effect looked the same on-screen due to stock effects.

    So does the treaty ban cloak technology that the klingons and romulans use? Or any kind of stealth technology? Then stealth technology is also quite a vague concept when u consider varying degrees of stealth. Canon fails to give an answer here.

    For STO, mem-alpha cites that the Treaty is no longer in effect, though of course anyone could have edited the article. So i guess the point is moot, and if we're going for starfleet stealth technology, we might as well have a cloak. I get the feeling that we're being encouraged to use MES instead though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I do not know of a reference to treaties being abolished with the feds in the game. We know the Hobus event happened, we know theres struggling with power among the Romulans, and we know the Borg are involved and now it seems to be implicated the Iconians are involved as well. I suspect with the amount of debate around cloaking, the devs will likely reference the cloaking part of the Romulan treaty sometime in the future.

    However with that said. We cannot assume that during the endgame timeline that the klingons conquered the Romulans. In fact at the end of the Dominion war, relations between the factions should be strengthened not weakened. Also recall that Hobus occurs at the very end of what is considered hard canon, that is with the new movie. There is no such evidence to assume that the treaty prohibiting cloak was abolished or maintained after the events of Hobus. And even if the treaty was still in place, we dont know if the Stealth Tech was an entirely new invention starfleet, assuming the romulans were still around during the Endgame Ep. If it was a new tech, the treaty should not apply, because the stealth tech may not even be a form of cloak at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    DLRevan wrote: »
    The problem with the phase cloak is that it calls into question what exactly does the Treaty of Algeron ban. Technically speaking, the Pegasus cloak made the ship invisible because the whole ship was out of phase with the normal universe, so that light and other EM waves also pass through the ship. It doesn't actually use true romulan/klingon cloak technology, i assume the effect looked the same on-screen due to stock effects.

    So does the treaty ban cloak technology that the klingons and romulans use? Or any kind of stealth technology? Then stealth technology is also quite a vague concept when u consider varying degrees of stealth. Canon fails to give an answer here..


    Exactly, Bazinga!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I would just throw three relevant points out there;

    1; The 'Stealth technology' did seem to make the SC-4 invisible visually.
    However.... big however.... there is the *potential* that this stealth is just an anti-Borg system, not a general stealth system. Just a thought. There is no direct canon clarification.

    2; Why do all these old treaties matter anymore?
    The Romulan Star Empire has fragmented into several new bodies resetting all that (correct me if I'm wrong), and the Klingons are at war with the Federation which would seem to be *incentive* for the Federation to pursue some form of cloaking to test its usefulness.

    So unless someone can point to a Path to 2409 which clearly states that the Federation made and effort to uphold this treaty by renewing it with one of the Romulan shards and the Klingons that they are at war with.....

    It seems ot me that treaties are a pointless premise where the cloak argument is concerned. :)

    3; It makes sense assuming all this for the Federation to pursue a variety of technologies, Stealth and various types of cloak included.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I'd like to add that there's overwhelming evidence that the Treaty is gone. The Treaty of Algeron is famous for banning the use of cloaking technology by the federation, but ironically that was an addendum to the real purpose of the Treaty: The formation of the Romulan Neutral Zone.

    I'm debating this in another thread, but I think we can agree that the Neutral Zone is gone? We're flying freely into romulan space as we please, it could be safe to say the Treaty never got renewed with Empress Sela's government. Couple this with the T5 Defiant and Galaxy-X, and there's overwhelming evidence the Treaty isn't in effect anymore.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Another concern from the klingons are that the feds will be gaining an adv in pvp. As they think cloak should only be on klingon ships etc etc.

    With the treaty issue pretty much out of the way here as it seems, what are the thoughts in cloak usefulness in game/pvp?

    Personally i dont need a cloak to fight in pvp haha, i think it would be highly useful in PVE though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Having not browsed the tribble forums I cannot say I categorically that its really had that much of an effect. More I've just seen complaining that the Federation shouldn't have it period more than its real impact on the PvP experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Gapaxbr wrote: »
    I see alot of comments pro/con with the feds getting cloaking. Both sides make their points heard and are passionate in their stances. Of course I understand that many Klingon players feel the feds should not be getting a cloak.

    With that being said, instead using cloak, why dont we give the feds the Stealth Technology as seen in the finale of ST Voyager.

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stealth_technology

    The Ep gave no indication of violating any treaties or pacts. In fact the klingons and the feds were good allies in the timeline, except for that bit with Janeway. The Ability can have different cooldowns or w/e the community desires. And before anyone objects to it being in an alt timeline....we seem to be fond of things of other timelines or universes as long as it serves us doesnt it haha jk =p

    Simple, canon soln, done.

    Anyways just putting this out there for discussion. Off to go pretend to care about class...


    The stealth technology was a cloak.


    "A cloaking device is a form of stealth technology that uses selective bending of light (and other forms of energy) to render a starship or other object completely invisible to the electromagnetic spectrum and most sensors. It has been encountered in varying forms over the centuries. "- Memory-Alpha


    (The only non-stealth technology listed is Refractive shilds, which exist in Voyagers normal timeline.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    We don't need a "canon alternative" to cloaking technology. The treaties in place that kept the Federation from developing cloaking technology do not have to be honored any longer, and would logically not be expected to be honored, due to the facts that A. the Romulan government basically no longer exists, and what little government does exist is hostile towards the Federation, and B. the Klingons are at war with the Federation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The only problem with citing Memory Alpha links is that as a wiki, it is subject to the perception of the person editing it, even if there is a layer of oversight. Besides as a soft canon source, they can pretty well do whatever they are allowed by TPtB.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    In term of Fed Cloaking vs Klink cloaking assuming treaty = null.....

    I think the Federation is geared to a different kind of warfare, and ought to be.

    I think despite this that they will inevitably adapt cloak for their own uses.

    I think that taking all this into account the Feds should/will only use cloak on a small number of specialized vessels for the foreseeable future.

    I do think however that even if more Fed ships are slated for cloak that the Klingon players need to relax and concentrate more on helping the devs get their faction up to par with the Federation.

    After-all, Romulans will have most likely universal cloak or even battle cloak should they become a faction.....
    (They invented the darn thing :P They'll likely get a special phase cloak ship too to add to that)

    So to put this in perspective;

    On one hand we have the UFP Starfleet which is only dabbling in cloak as an augmentary tactical asset.

    On the other extreme the Romulans who rely on it for literally all their advantages in some way

    In the middle of the road the KDF who use cloak as a tactical weapon universally but are not wholly Dependant on it.

    EG a Romulan ship should find it very hard to survive PvP with no cloak, a Klingon ship should find it possible just harder, and a Federation ship should find it no less hard at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    not to mention that logic in memory alpha appears to be circular. lol

    Right so, the treaty is not a problem. And im sensing there is really is no good reason to not allow the feds cloak or w/e we want to call it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If Starfleet gets cloaking in this game, it will sort of cheapen the experience for a me a bit.

    (although I wish the Romulan and Klingon NPCs would use their a little more/better :/)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    To be honest though, you can conscientiously object to the use of cloak and forbid any of your crews to allow the technology used aboard ship(IE not fly the refit Defiant.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    There is nothing stopping Federation having cloak or Cryptic granting them such.

    This game is NOT hard canon which means they are free to play with Star Trek's story within the boundries CBS allows. Since CBS have to pass things Cryptic does then any claims the Federation cant have cloak is an utter lie.

    They USED to have a treaty with the Romulans, they USED to be against using cloaks.

    Times change, especially in war and as such Federation gets cloak.

    End of Story.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    aye works for me
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think there are a lot of points to the qurstion of if the federation faction should have cloaking technology, and the least important of them is "is it cannon?".

    Far more important are:
    1. How will the federation faction having access to cloaking ships affect PvP (particularly FvK, given that klingon ships pay a penalty in hull and shields in part to ofset their cloak)?

    2. How will federation ships having cloak affect the atmosphere of PvE gameplay for federation players? (Perticularly in comparasin to klingon, and eventually romulan experiences)

    3. How widespread should federation access to cloaking ships be? (should every ship have a cloak?, every escort?, only a select few? should it be seperated by tier?)

    4. How will the loose ends regarding the treatys banning claoks be handled in the in-game lore? (the creators can literally make up whatever they want here so it's not so much a question of can they justafy it as how should they justafy it so it doesn't feal contrived)

    Personally, I think that the best solution would be as follows:

    Make a point that most federation ships are not ment to be combat vessels. Secondly lets add the bit of trechnobable that says you can't just strap a cloak onto any old ship and have it be effective (I know this contradics some TOS canon but that can be worked around with further trecnobable). So we now have a reason for only warships designed with the intent of being clokable to have cloaking capability.

    Llet's address the political issue thusly. The federation honestly isn't sure whether or not the treaty with the rolumalns still stands. Matters are further confused by the demand for better and more military ships (the klingon war), and the posability that undine agents are pushing either agenda seceretly. The net result of this has been a "better to ask forgivness than permission attatude" that has resulted in newer generation warships having cloaking technology. So far this has been limited to the deffiant class vessils that have managed to get into dock long enough for the refit (the deffiant class incorporated the nesesary designe features from the beginning even though they were generally built without the actuall cloaking device until recently), and the reffited galaxy class dreadnaut (to which cloaking was added due to the fortuitus timing of the shedueled refit for the class as a whole having large numbers of galaxy class vessels in for a major overhaul already).

    Now onto gameplay:
    as you'll see I've set up an expectation that only a small number of federation ship classes have cloaking, and those classes can (presumably) be balanced accordingly to prevent PvP issues.

    Furthermore, because few federation ships have cloaking capability it should only minimally impact the PvE experience as you don't have to fly a cloaking ship and you should encounter fewer fellow feds with cloaking than without assuming the cloaking classes are properly balanced. It would be ideal to keep ships with cloak limited to tiers where the player will have a non-cloaking alternative of the same role (escort, cruiser, etc).

    As for other factions, well the romulan PvE content can assume you have cloaking and include stealth based missions while the federation and klingon cannot (i think there are non-cloaking klingon ships). And as to differences between klingon and federation gameplay, well there'd have to be some klingon PvE content before I could comment there.

    i think the total list of ships with claok in the federation side should be:

    1. Deffiant refit (escort)
    2. Advanced escort (escort)
    3. Galaxy X (cruiser)
    4. Either the Assault cruiser, or a new tier 5 cruiser
    5. either the Recon science vessel or a new tier 5 "scout science vessel".

    and no others unless a tier above 5 is added.

    And obviously the advanced escort (and any of the other existing ships should they be chosen) will need to be reassesed in order to keep the game balanced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Defiant and Galaxy-X get basic cloak.
    These ships can only be acquired at Tier 5 from RA+

    Thats it, no more and no less.

    Justifying it is goddamn simple.

    Romulans have signed an agreement with the Federation that permits them to employ cloaking technology in a similar manner they did during the Dominion War.

    Once upon a time the Federation was in a poor position militarily to break the treaty and didnt have the NEED to do so. Now, the Federation is far more heavily armed while the Romulans have been crippled. The Romulans are not stupid so declaring war on the Federation at this time is not an option and weakening the Federation when they are currently taking the brunt of Borg, Undine, Klingon, Dominion and Cardassian fire would not be the best move.

    As per usual, the Romulans like to sit in the background taking none of the risk but getting all of the reward. Federation kills all the bad guys while the Romulans can build up their power and wipe everyone out in one quick clean offensive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Another thought, while the Federation wouldn't scrap the treaty, does the Federation recognize any one Romulan government as the legitimate government?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Turtlewing wrote: »
    I think there are a lot of points to the qurstion of if the federation faction should have cloaking technology, and the least important of them is "is it cannon?".

    Far more important are:
    1. How will the federation faction having access to cloaking ships affect PvP (particularly FvK, given that klingon ships pay a penalty in hull and shields in part to ofset their cloak)?

    2. How will federation ships having cloak affect the atmosphere of PvE gameplay for federation players? (Perticularly in comparasin to klingon, and eventually romulan experiences)

    3. How widespread should federation access to cloaking ships be? (should every ship have a cloak?, every escort?, only a select few? should it be seperated by tier?)

    4. How will the loose ends regarding the treatys banning claoks be handled in the in-game lore? (the creators can literally make up whatever they want here so it's not so much a question of can they justafy it as how should they justafy it so it doesn't feal contrived)

    Personally, I think that the best solution would be as follows:

    Make a point that most federation ships are not ment to be combat vessels. Secondly lets add the bit of trechnobable that says you can't just strap a cloak onto any old ship and have it be effective (I know this contradics some TOS canon but that can be worked around with further trecnobable). So we now have a reason for only warships designed with the intent of being clokable to have cloaking capability.

    Llet's address the political issue thusly. The federation honestly isn't sure whether or not the treaty with the rolumalns still stands. Matters are further confused by the demand for better and more military ships (the klingon war), and the posability that undine agents are pushing either agenda seceretly. The net result of this has been a "better to ask forgivness than permission attatude" that has resulted in newer generation warships having cloaking technology. So far this has been limited to the deffiant class vessils that have managed to get into dock long enough for the refit (the deffiant class incorporated the nesesary designe features from the beginning even though they were generally built without the actuall cloaking device until recently), and the reffited galaxy class dreadnaut (to which cloaking was added due to the fortuitus timing of the shedueled refit for the class as a whole having large numbers of galaxy class vessels in for a major overhaul already).

    Now onto gameplay:
    as you'll see I've set up an expectation that only a small number of federation ship classes have cloaking, and those classes can (presumably) be balanced accordingly to prevent PvP issues.

    Furthermore, because few federation ships have cloaking capability it should only minimally impact the PvE experience as you don't have to fly a cloaking ship and you should encounter fewer fellow feds with cloaking than without assuming the cloaking classes are properly balanced. It would be ideal to keep ships with cloak limited to tiers where the player will have a non-cloaking alternative of the same role (escort, cruiser, etc).

    As for other factions, well the romulan PvE content can assume you have cloaking and include stealth based missions while the federation and klingon cannot (i think there are non-cloaking klingon ships). And as to differences between klingon and federation gameplay, well there'd have to be some klingon PvE content before I could comment there.

    i think the total list of ships with claok in the federation side should be:

    1. Deffiant refit (escort)
    2. Advanced escort (escort)
    3. Galaxy X (cruiser)
    4. Either the Assault cruiser, or a new tier 5 cruiser
    5. either the Recon science vessel or a new tier 5 "scout science vessel".

    and no others unless a tier above 5 is added.

    And obviously the advanced escort (and any of the other existing ships should they be chosen) will need to be reassesed in order to keep the game balanced.

    For ships id say just keep the cloaks for Gal-X and the Defiant. But a possible future cloak, its probably better for a tier 6 ship in the future. For pve combat, really shouldnt matter much...its an NPC haha

    In fact, having a cloak opens up the possibility for different types of missions, like stealth missions.
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