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Why Can't Ships Roll???

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
To start all spacecraft, and aircraft respectfully are able to roll. Both types of craft work on a 3 axis of rotation. IE - Pitch ( climb and decend ) - Yaw ( left, right turn ) - and Roll.
You got the pitch and yaw in the game correct, but sadly lack the roll factor. I would like to know why. Rolling is basic ACM or in this case SCM - Air Combat Maneuvering, Space Combat Maneuvering.
Maybe I am out in left field on this. However I am of the opinion that a roll program needs to be installed.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    same reason why we don't have full double 360 control options (goign straight up and down)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because the devs decided that the vast majority of Trek Fans would not be able to handle full 3D combat. Nor would it work very well with balancing shield facing ("your left shield's gone? just roll, you're good as new" isn't as harrowing as "Captain! Our Left Shield is DOWN! Torpedoes incoming!")

    However, there doesn't seem to be as many players as cryptic implied with is lack of 3D reasoning.

    ..... I really wish Cryptic would post (non invasive/non damaging) numbers and statistics about players.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    no fingers
    no thumbs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    My understanding from back in the day it was partly an artistic choice and partly a point that you never really see it done in the series either. I do also think part of that is based on some limitations in the engine itself, but I might only be half remembering that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because Cryptic only thinks in 2D and if they were to think in 3D they might have had a way better product. Once again common sense doesn't apply.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Because the devs decided that the vast majority of Trek Fans would not be able to handle full 3D combat. Nor would it work very well with balancing shield facing ("your left shield's gone? just roll, you're good as new" isn't as harrowing as "Captain! Our Left Shield is DOWN! Torpedoes incoming!")

    However, there doesn't seem to be as many players as cryptic implied with is lack of 3D reasoning.

    ..... I really wish Cryptic would post (non invasive/non damaging) numbers and statistics about players.

    actually whats becoming more apparent day by day is that they never could figure out HOW to make the ships move vertically never mind roll...........
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Go and watch the Series! Besides the Defiant, no ship did that!

    Also all ships in Space always meet at the same level, noone flies on the back!

    I like it, its like Star Trek is and it works great!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    All very good points of view. I guess I am being to practical, being a Air Force vet, I worked on F-15's, so this stuff is bread and butter to me. That said common sence is not that common.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    To be honest the only place I ever recall 'dog fighting' a star trek ship was in the old interplay video games. Everything else I can only recall single plane x/y combat
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    BIG-BEAR wrote:
    All very good points of view. I guess I am being to practical, being a Air Force vet, I worked on F-15's, so this stuff is bread and butter to me. That said common sence is not that common.
    Except these ships are more akin to naval ships: You're so big you might as well just sit there and fire all your guns as you're going to get hit anyway. But that's fine since we have shield tech. Unless you're flying one of those fancy DPS monster escorts, then yeah, you should be able to everything a jet fighter can do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    pulling an Immelman on a BoP would be a geek-gasm for me....

    but I understand the concept of 3d flight is hard to grasp.....

    ....lol...a perfect example is I let my father fly MS Flight Sim once......lol......

    ya.... the whole three axis thing is hard for some to grasp and disorientation takes over..

    :rolleyes:

    (( remember the old descent: freespace games ? that was full 3d movement..... I remember at times I got really disoriented in that game ... so I understand the argument ))



    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I believe at some point in closed beta they tried full 3D movement and found from player feedback that it was too disorienting to too many people, asides from being very un-trek like. So the decision was made to limit the tilt up down, etc to what it is now to prevent that. Last I heard though they were still discussing the idea of a greater up/down tilt.

    Granted, I wouldn't mind full 3D from the simulators I've played before, but apparently the general population dosen't take it as well.

    So while it may seem common sense in the context of space combat, for a mass market MMO not so much.

    *edit* Yes I miss Descent and Descent: Freespace very much :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    (( remember the old descent: freespace game ? that was full 3d movement..... I remember at times I got really disoriented in that game ... so I understand the argument ))
    Was the space empty? 3D disorientation can and will happen to even experienced pilots if there aren't points of reference around. Aside from a few (Boring Asteroid belt maps, I'm looking at you) most maps in this game feature a giant landmark to serve as reference for where you, your allies, and your enemies are.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Spawn1702 wrote: »
    Go and watch the Series! Besides the Defiant, no ship did that!

    Also all ships in Space always meet at the same level, noone flies on the back!

    I like it, its like Star Trek is and it works great!

    This. The fact that some people have trouble with 3D movement is probably also true, but rather inconsequential. The main reason is that it was not done in Trek.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Aris wrote:
    This. The fact that some people have trouble with 3D movement is probably also true, but rather inconsequential. The main reason is that it was not done in Trek.

    I have to agree.

    As much as I miss X-Wing and TIE-Fighter games - Star Trek was almost always oriented on the same plane (due to being large, capital ships)/

    I don't remember any Star Trek ships rolling (they sometimes had a slight bank though).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Aris wrote:
    This. The fact that some people have trouble with 3D movement is probably also true, but rather inconsequential. The main reason is that it was not done in Trek.

    Thats not really true. In TOS, TNG, VOY it was not done becuse the physical model filming used made it very hard to do on a tv show budget. DS9 did showed more stuff done in the big battles at the end.
    Enterprise had an actual looping and a roll on screen. Sits definetly possible for tek ships to do so.
    And remeber ST2. it was explicit mentioned that we are in a 3d env.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    Thats not really true. In TOS, TNG, VOY it was not done becuse the physical model filming used made it very hard to do on a tv show budget. DS9 did showed more stuff done in the big battles at the end.
    Enterprise had an actual looping and a roll on screen. Sits definetly possible for tek ships to do so.
    And remeber ST2. it was explicit mentioned that we are in a 3d env.

    but 99.9999% of the time it didn't happen - even in films (where budget wasn't as much of an issue).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    Thats not really true. In TOS, TNG, VOY it was not done becuse the physical model filming used made it very hard to do on a tv show budget. DS9 did showed more stuff done in the big battles at the end.
    Enterprise had an actual looping and a roll on screen. Sits definetly possible for tek ships to do so.
    And remeber ST2. it was explicit mentioned that we are in a 3d env.
    Except the Enterprise didn't move like a fighter in ST:II. I just did some lateral Z movement (using the RCS thrusters).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The Enterprise-E made a full roll in Star Trek Nemesis to take pressure of the shields.

    The Enterprise NX-01 makes a full loop in the episode "The Expanse" of Season 2 to outsmart the klingon Duras.

    In an episode of Season 4 the Enterprise NX-01 was sabotaged and the warp core went almost critical. Trip served on the Columbia NX-02 at the time. The Columbia rolled on her back and flew upside down in order for Trip to use the Grappler to get to the Enterprise from the Columbias shuttle bay.

    The Enterprise-D made a full role to make it out of the Dyson's Sphere in the episode Relics (The Scotty episode).

    The Defiant performed a full loop during the final battle of the Dominion War in the episode What You Leave Behind.

    Even Kirks first enterprise performed full 3D movement after the refit in the Battle against Kahn. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn)

    Do you see the pattern here?

    Full 3D flight was in Star Trek and should be in this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Agreed. True 3D combat just isn't Trek.

    From a game standpoint, the extra dimension of movement doesn't provide enough player enjoyment to be worth all the troubles it causes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Bracknell wrote:
    The Enterprise-E made a full roll in Star Trek Nemesis to take pressure of the shields.

    The Enterprise NX-01 makes a full loop in the episode "The Expanse" of Season 2 to outsmart the klingon Duras.

    In an episode of Season 4 the Enterprise NX-01 was sabotaged and the warp core went almost critical. Trip served on the Columbia NX-02 at the time. The Columbia rolled on her back and flew upside down in order for Trip to use the Grappler to get to the Enterprise from the Columbias shuttle bay.

    The Enterprise-D made a full role to make it out of the Dyson's Sphere in the episode Relics (The Scotty episode).

    The Defiant performed a full loop during the final battle of the Dominion War in the episode What You Leave Behind.

    Even Kirks first enterprise performed full 3D movement after the refit in the Battle against Kahn. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn)

    Do you see the pattern here?

    Full 3D flight was in Star Trek and should be in this game.
    No, they did Full 3D every once in a while as a special maneuver while plane fighting most of the time. That dictates a slow recharge power at best.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    No, they did Full 3D every once in a while as a special maneuver while plane fighting most of the time. That dictates a slow recharge power at best.

    At least make it possible as a special power. Because 3D flight did happen in Star Trek as evidenced in my earlier post!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Did you actually see the "3D movement" in Wrath of Kahn. The ship kept perfectly level and slowly lowered as the helm officer moved a slider marked "Z-Axis".

    Not exactly soaring like a falcon through space.

    The extra effort needed isn't justified by the occasional special move. It would get quite tiresome to watch a ship perform the same roll manuver every time they clicked a particular button. Since free-form 3D movement isn't in the offering (rightly so) it is best to stick to the normal Trek feel of flat space.

    After all, if you really acknowledge 3D space you entirely break most of Trek storyline. For example, in TNG a small Fed fleet sets up a barrier to prevent cloaked Romulan ships from entering Klingon space. If space was truly 3D the Rommies could simply have gone over/under the entire array of ships and flown on to whatever destination they desired.

    Trek space is clearly flat. It may not be "realistic", but it is plenty cenematic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Bracknell wrote:
    At least make it possible as a special power. Because 3D flight did happen in Star Trek as evidenced in my earlier post!

    You forgot to add when the Galaxy-X fired at a Klingon ship from under it (using the Phaser Lance whatever) and flying though the destruction and the second Klingon ship following after it, from what I remember.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    Did you actually see the "3D movement" in Wrath of Kahn. The ship kept perfectly level and slowly lowered as the helm officer moved a slider marked "Z-Axis".

    Not exactly soaring like a falcon through space.

    The extra effort needed isn't justified by the occasional special move. It would get quite tiresome to watch a ship perform the same roll manuver every time they clicked a particular button. Since free-form 3D movement isn't in the offering (rightly so) it is best to stick to the normal Trek feel of flat space.

    After all, if you really acknowledge 3D space you entirely break most of Trek storyline. For example, in TNG a small Fed fleet sets up a barrier to prevent cloaked Romulan ships from entering Klingon space. If space was truly 3D the Rommies could simply have gone over/under the entire array of ships and flown on to whatever destination they desired.

    Trek space is clearly flat. It may not be "realistic", but it is plenty cenematic.

    You're absolutely correct. The only thing I would add is that for capital ships, the ships we use in STO are a bit too agile for me. Because there is little reference to scale aesthetically, I rarely ever get the feeling that I'm captain of a capital ship. Most of the time I get the feeling I'm literally a ship - a fast and agile one more akin to a fighter.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    Did you actually see the "3D movement" in Wrath of Kahn. The ship kept perfectly level and slowly lowered as the helm officer moved a slider marked "Z-Axis".

    Not exactly soaring like a falcon through space.

    The extra effort needed isn't justified by the occasional special move. It would get quite tiresome to watch a ship perform the same roll manuver every time they clicked a particular button. Since free-form 3D movement isn't in the offering (rightly so) it is best to stick to the normal Trek feel of flat space.

    After all, if you really acknowledge 3D space you entirely break most of Trek storyline. For example, in TNG a small Fed fleet sets up a barrier to prevent cloaked Romulan ships from entering Klingon space. If space was truly 3D the Rommies could simply have gone over/under the entire array of ships and flown on to whatever destination they desired.

    Trek space is clearly flat. It may not be "realistic", but it is plenty cenematic.

    It isn't flat. You forgot about the sensor net they used to detect cloaced ships in that episode.

    Even flying under or above the fleet wouldn't have worked because of that sensor net.

    There is clear evidence in the shows and movies that 3D movement exists.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Jim-San wrote:
    You forgot to add when the Galaxy-X fired at a Klingon ship from under it (using the Phaser Lance whatever) and flying though the destruction and the second Klingon ship following after it, from what I remember.

    Forgot about that one. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I find the whole concept to be rather amusing, X Y and Z planes are completely arbitrary in space, there is no up and down per say, other than what we might tie to the galaxy axis. It is only when you have other objects to reference that you can assign an coordinate system. if any of you have read Ender's Game. . .down is the enemy. Disorientation occurs because your mind attempts to assign an arbitrary coordinate system where none exists. Rather than keeping yourself fluid and dynamic. It is what people who are used to planet side living try to do. Those who live in space would know better.

    ~D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Bracknell wrote:
    It isn't flat. You forgot about the sensor net they used to detect cloaced ships in that episode.

    Even flying under or above the fleet wouldn't have worked because of that sensor net.

    There is clear evidence in the shows and movies that 3D movement exists.

    Nope. The net only worked when a cloaked ship moved through the web of beams between the ships. No detection was possible outside the radius of the ships. It was the breaking of the beams that revealed ships. This is why when the Rommies disrupted the beams in the middle of the fleet, they had to fall back.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Democratus wrote: »
    Nope. The net only worked when a cloaked ship moved through the web of beams between the ships. No detection was possible outside the radius of the ships. It was the breaking of the beams that revealed ships. This is why when the Rommies disrupted the beams in the middle of the fleet, they had to fall back.

    Ok. I might have to rewatch the episode. :confused:

    The thing is that Star Trek contradicts itself on many occasions. While there is true full 3D movement in space in one episode then there is also an episode where the writer didn't ackknowledge that and showed space as flat.

    We have seen both in Star Trek. Full 3D flight and 2D flight.

    Of course we get into these friendly discussions about the topic. To each their own. I prefer the full 3D movement. I have no problem about the possibility of disorientation. They implemented it very good in Star Trek Bridge Commander.
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