I think one of the problems in STO is that people feel the often have to choose between ground and space. This come mostly from the fact that all the skill points are on the same tree.
What I suggest is that the ground based skills earn their own experience. This XP should be equally proportional to space skill xp, to keep it in balance for purposes of making choices.
This way, we can do pvp on both ground and space equally well. Fleet actions.... everything. I think this could go a long way to resolving a lot of issues people are feeling on ground missions. I prefer space, so I am fully specced into it. I still don't see putting a point into ground until the cap goes to like 60. I know I am not alone on this. Many players make ground only and space only characters. Let's just get rid of this split forever.
Remove the forced choice between being great at space.. or great on ground.
I think one of the problems in STO is that people feel the often have to choose between ground and space. This come mostly from the fact that all the skill points are on the same tree.
What I suggest is that the ground based skills earn their own experience. This XP should be equally proportional to space skill xp, to keep it in balance for purposes of making choices.
This way, we can do pvp on both ground and space equally well. Fleet actions.... everything. I think this could go a long way to resolving a lot of issues people are feeling on ground missions. I prefer space, so I am fully specced into it. I still don't see putting a point into ground until the cap goes to like 60. I know I am not alone on this. Many players make ground only and space only characters. Let's just get rid of this split forever.
Remove the forced choice between being great at space.. or great on ground.
There is no reason we cannot have both.
Thoughts?
I wouldn't sound terrible I would sign to you as support.
I hate ground combat (I once tried it even fully skilled for it still hated it) and I am to full space which means I cannot do any ground combat that is remotely serious.
I don't feel like I have to choose. If you plan your character correctly you will have a good balance between your space and ground skills.
If you play PVP seriously you will feel that you want every edge you can get which mean a fully focussed spec on either ground or space, mixing spec for pvp puts you at a strong disadvantage.
If you play PVP seriously you will feel that you want every edge you can get which mean a fully focussed spec on either ground or space, mixing spec for pvp puts you at a strong disadvantage.
I don't play PvP so I cannot agree or disagree with you. Superchum does make a good point though.
I don't feel like I have to choose. If you plan your character correctly you will have a good balance between your space and ground skills.
I agree, and I'm a little suprised that this debate is still around after I've been gone for 3 or so months. Here is a little snippit of a response I had to a thread from a few month ago. The topic was that Klingons intentionally spoil Ground PvP for Federation characters by using "cheap" tactics. It somehow led to a poster claiming that if a character puts any points into ground skills than he is intentionally "beating up" on characters fully specced into space.
Can I ask you what your definition of "completely specced into ground pvp" is? I have been called a lamer, cheater, exploiter, over powered, etc. because I have some skill points invested into ground abilities, and as you pointed out, those who invest points into ground are in a position to do better than those who don't. What I don't understand is why individuals like you (see "like" you) claim that if someone puts points into ground skills they can't be competative in space combat so they are beating up on the other players who focused on space.
Forgive me if my math is incorrect as I am working on little sleep and doing this off the top of my head, but iirc, there is a maximum of 60700 points to spend between space and ground skills. I have a total of 9400 points invested into ground skills. That leaves me with 51300 points invested into space abilities. That's about 85% of my points invested into space skills, yet I am consistantly at or near the top in damage and kills (and suprisingly often in healing as a tactical officer) in ground and usually hang around the middle of the pack in space. Could I be better in space? Absolutely, but I would chaulk that up to my lack of practice. Why do I do so well in ground when the numbers would suggest I am more inclined to be better prepared and more competative in space?
So I ask again, what do you consider fully specced into ground? You have expressed that, in addition to poor sportsmanship shown by the players dying on purpose, it is essentially unfair for players to choose to invest points into ground skills and compete against players who chose not to. I'm just really not quite sure I understand what your gripe is.
I've only been resubbed for about a day so I am still trying to catch up to any and all changes that have been made in the last few months, but my initial observation still appears to support my above quote. I have never felt "gimped" in space combat because I was missing those few thousand points. I figured out what I wanted to do in both ground and space, and I specced for it. Of course I would love to have some more points to fill out some of the skills that I have like 5/9 points in, but I'm not slamming my fist on the desk in a lament to the heavens that I split my skills.
Though I must add a caveat, my experience is coming from a BG5 Tactical Officer who leveled up solely on PvP and the majority of that in ground matches. Maybe it is a little more difficult for other classes, but so far my Sci Officer has never felt at much of a disadvantage. I will have to wait and see as I get some more levels. However, in my second ground match on my Sci, after being gone for three months, I did get a hate tell to the effect of "You're weapons kill me too fast, cheater." Tells like that seem to reinforce to me that ANYone can be competitive at ground combat if they know what they are doing, regardless of the number of skills they invest.
I don't do ground pvp as I stated I hate ground combat, but in story lines missions (those i like to play) I have to do groubnd combat and I am not able to because I am a space pvper and thus focus on that.
9.4k skill points would seriously hurt my space spec for that means taking out RA space skills for osme ground combat skills and those RA ones are very powerfull skills.
Well as I said it is probably a little harder to balance with other classes, but as a Tac officer I didn't find much use for the Tier five space skills. In fact I think I have more T5 skills in ground than I do in space. I would imagine that as an Eng or Sci that some of those T5 skills could really make a difference. One the level cap is raised I'm going to have to do some re-evaluation of my skills.
10k is nothing that is 2 RA skills to 9 that is seriously nothing and all those are badly needed in the space skills I still lack.
10k is something. It's huge. You have 20 levels/skillup at T5. If you can't build something with that much more flexibility ... you're building it wrong.
Well as I said it is probably a little harder to balance with other classes, but as a Tac officer I didn't find much use for the Tier five space skills. In fact I think I have more T5 skills in ground than I do in space. I would imagine that as an Eng or Sci that some of those T5 skills could really make a difference. One the level cap is raised I'm going to have to do some re-evaluation of my skills.
T5 at Engineering is pretty narrow. Weapons Systems is the best bang for your buck. Hull Repair is popular but over-rated. The Aux systems is unpopular but very under-rated due to changes in 1.2. None of the ground skills have any real use even in a ground combat based build.
No clue about science.
Any word on a free respec when the cap increases?
You get 2. One at 46. One at 51. That's how the system works. You get free respecs when levelling up to new ranks. We all should already know this by now.
10k is something. It's huge. You have 20 levels/skillup at T5. If you can't build something with that much more flexibility ... you're building it wrong.
10k is nothing. I've put all the Experience I've earned (I just broke level 49) into Aux Performance and 3 Torp Skills (Projectiles -> Torpedoeds -> Quantums) and I only have 300 to spend right now. 10k goes quickly.
I was able to max out fire team kit except for plasma grenade and ambush. Which were just one box each from max and max out target optics and still had enough to max out most the space skills I needed to be competitive in space PVP. You can balance out pretty well as it is now.
It adds significant boosts to Engy Team and Miracle Worker. I dropped my ship skill for it. Combined with even 1 Hull Repair console and you can get back to the green from red (and have practically full shields with MW).
as an engineer I know those 10k won't be enough to get me all I want, but than understand I am a serious PVPer when it comes down to it I do anything to get that edge.
I don't have the cash here or I would have brought the best stuff I could pay 800% more for 1% bonus I would
Invest 4.5k skill points for a little bonus? I would
It adds significant boosts to Engy Team and Miracle Worker. I dropped my ship skill for it. Combined with even 1 Hull Repair console and you can get back to the green from red (and have practically full shields with MW).
I dropped my ship skills to flesh out the lower tiers of engineering more completely. I'm just not as big a fan of Hull Repair as I am of the other two right now in this environment is all.
I mean we could go back and forth on the benefits and cons of each. But that might derail the thread.
I'm basically looking at 7/7/7 in all three of them when I finally get to level this up on live, but I'm toying around with various other things while I still have a VA on test just to see what I can get out of the skills. I had a ton of respecs unused, and I still have 70k merits, lol.
as an engineer I know those 10k won't be enough to get me all I want, but than understand I am a serious PVPer when it comes down to it I do anything to get that edge.
I don't have the cash here or I would have brought the best stuff I could pay 800% more for 1% bonus I would
Invest 4.5k skill points for a little bonus? I would
As an engineer I have to ask what it is you want out of ground skills?
Turret boosting skills are what I invested in for ground based PVE. Weapons Malfunction would seem to be one of the better investments for ground PVP.
But the engineering tree is thin in terms of ground PVP. Just like the kits themselves are.
I want some pve abilities without getting my rear end owned hopelessly at normal (which sucks as I want to do space on elite)
Ah. Ground PVE is my specialty.
All you need is turrets 9. So you can train Phaser Turret III on your BO's. If you can set it up so you are placing a turret, and run with 3 engineers and 1 science officer, and have all three of your engineers using at least 2 turrets ... you will do two things ...
1- Create a laser light show that in the 1970s they would play Pink Floyd albums to. It's very pretty to watch.
2- Increase your Damage in any given encounter to the point where you will tear through Normal and Advanced settings with no difficulty at all.
The one science officer helps you survive the NPCs that cheat on advanced levels. The ones with the dual bolt spray and the weapons that shoot through shields.
The 3 engineers play up to your strengths.
I usually have each of my engineer BOFFs on my away team equipped with 2 turrets, 1 shield heal, 1 weapons malfunction.
It's a slaughter. A complete slaughter.
And you don't need to invest many Skill Points in ground skills.
All you need is turrets 9. So you can train Phaser Turret III on your BO's. If you can set it up so you are placing a turret, and run with 3 engineers and 1 science officer, and have all three of your engineers using at least 2 turrets ... you will do two things ...
1- Create a laser light show that in the 1970s they would play Pink Floyd albums to. It's very pretty to watch.
2- Increase your Damage in any given encounter to the point where you will tear through Normal and Advanced settings with no difficulty at all.
The one science officer helps you survive the NPCs that cheat on advanced levels. The ones with the dual bolt spray and the weapons that shoot through shields.
The 3 engineers play up to your strengths.
I usually have each of my engineer BOFFs on my away team equipped with 2 turrets, 1 shield heal, 1 weapons malfunction.
It's a slaughter. A complete slaughter.
And you don't need to invest many Skill Points in ground skills.
What are the exact skills your Sci Officer has? All Medical Tricorder?
What are the exact skills your Sci Officer has? All Medical Tricorder?
I have to double check. It's two medical tricorders. One other power that deals with radiation damage I think? (I got tired of the Borg assimilation) And the AoE gas fragile hold. Which comes in handy in stopping that initial charge/onslaught against dual pistol wielders.
I don't want to reduce my space effenceincy by taking out talent points from space to ground, not a single one of them.
that is why i support them beiing seperate and thus being able to skill in both without downgrading the other.
My point is ... you don't have to.
There's such a small point investment in Ground PVE for an engineer that you can easily get to working levels in all relevant space combat skills, and still have room for the few ground skills you'll need.
The only way this won't happen is if you're trying to hit 9 in all your space skills.
And if that's how you're building your character ...
You need to go back to square 1. All of the guides I've ever read about character skill tree point out how 5 to 7 is what you shoot for and only go to 9 in a few select skills.
The only way this won't happen is if you're trying to hit 9 in all your space skills.
And if that's how you're building your character ...
You need to go back to square 1. All of the guides I've ever read about character skill tree point out how 5 to 7 is what you shoot for and only go to 9 in a few select skills.
As an Engineer, I can 9 all but 2 or 3 space skills that are relevant to me (with the new Season 2 skill cap). I can see how a Science Officer wouldn't be able to do this with a versatile Sci Power set. And a Tac Officer should be able to 9 every space skill s/he uses.
Does assimilation really deal radiation damage? I think at one point, I heard it was physical. So my medic carries dylovene...
Could explain why I feel like I'm melting whenever I get hit with assimilation.
Its all in the combat log. I haven't made an attempt to read it myself because there's so much it logs, its very tedious to find what I'm actually looking for. I wish it could output to a text file or at least have more color formatting to precisely zero in on stuff.
Ah no worries. It's an old trick I picked up on these very forums back when I was still new to the game. I'm very set in my ways too. (I find it hard to switch to other ships and when I do I go nuts getting my keybinds set up the exact same way). So it's been with me for awhile. It was the difficulty slider itself that forced a change on me. Prior to that I used four engineers. With multiple turrets. It was insane.
I'm new to the game, but I've played many of the MMOs currently on the market and almost all the ones that the sun has long set on. My confusion to the skills system, and it's division of intent (space, ground, or gish), lies not just in the idea that you must either be good at one or suffer the hit of being 'meh' at both. It also lies in the fact that I cannot for the life of me, make heads or tails of the skill system. It feels too nebulous, to vague as to what it does or does not effect in some cases and in others too specific.
I have stopped leveling in the attempt to actually learn what effects what, and what skills will mater in the long game. I have quietly noted the complaints of others involving the class I play (Engineer). I've listened to the debates about what is worth it, and how to possibly make some skills useful. However, the fact that the skills feel more like a labyrinth to be solved than a mechanic to be used.
Maybe it's that the game just kind of throws you in, the booklet (if you could call it that) that comes with the game is little more than a bookmaker or flier than an actualy how to play guide. I've had to use the forums to find out simple mechanics and keyboard functions.
If they restructure the skills, it would also be prudent to better document what effects will assist or stack, what effects are pointless to go for (not needed for build, or just plain useless to class), and either make the skills have a transparency (AKA: one skill effects both space and ground) or allow for the split training. I understand people who want to eek out every drop of performance from their build just as readily as I see the view of those who say "Take the hit to not suck down there". However I would have to say that I side more readily with the split training crowd in only that it fits fluff better than the "suffer" method.
Comments
~D
I wouldn't sound terrible I would sign to you as support.
I hate ground combat (I once tried it even fully skilled for it still hated it) and I am to full space which means I cannot do any ground combat that is remotely serious.
If you play PVP seriously you will feel that you want every edge you can get which mean a fully focussed spec on either ground or space, mixing spec for pvp puts you at a strong disadvantage.
And if not now, then certainly by level 61.
I don't play PvP so I cannot agree or disagree with you. Superchum does make a good point though.
10k is nothing that is 2 RA skills to 9 that is seriously nothing and all those are badly needed in the space skills I still lack.
I agree, and I'm a little suprised that this debate is still around after I've been gone for 3 or so months. Here is a little snippit of a response I had to a thread from a few month ago. The topic was that Klingons intentionally spoil Ground PvP for Federation characters by using "cheap" tactics. It somehow led to a poster claiming that if a character puts any points into ground skills than he is intentionally "beating up" on characters fully specced into space.
I've only been resubbed for about a day so I am still trying to catch up to any and all changes that have been made in the last few months, but my initial observation still appears to support my above quote. I have never felt "gimped" in space combat because I was missing those few thousand points. I figured out what I wanted to do in both ground and space, and I specced for it. Of course I would love to have some more points to fill out some of the skills that I have like 5/9 points in, but I'm not slamming my fist on the desk in a lament to the heavens that I split my skills.
Though I must add a caveat, my experience is coming from a BG5 Tactical Officer who leveled up solely on PvP and the majority of that in ground matches. Maybe it is a little more difficult for other classes, but so far my Sci Officer has never felt at much of a disadvantage. I will have to wait and see as I get some more levels. However, in my second ground match on my Sci, after being gone for three months, I did get a hate tell to the effect of "You're weapons kill me too fast, cheater." Tells like that seem to reinforce to me that ANYone can be competitive at ground combat if they know what they are doing, regardless of the number of skills they invest.
9.4k skill points would seriously hurt my space spec for that means taking out RA space skills for osme ground combat skills and those RA ones are very powerfull skills.
Any word on a free respec when the cap increases?
10k is something. It's huge. You have 20 levels/skillup at T5. If you can't build something with that much more flexibility ... you're building it wrong.
T5 at Engineering is pretty narrow. Weapons Systems is the best bang for your buck. Hull Repair is popular but over-rated. The Aux systems is unpopular but very under-rated due to changes in 1.2. None of the ground skills have any real use even in a ground combat based build.
No clue about science.
You get 2. One at 46. One at 51. That's how the system works. You get free respecs when levelling up to new ranks. We all should already know this by now.
I don't have the cash here or I would have brought the best stuff I could pay 800% more for 1% bonus I would
Invest 4.5k skill points for a little bonus? I would
I dropped my ship skills to flesh out the lower tiers of engineering more completely. I'm just not as big a fan of Hull Repair as I am of the other two right now in this environment is all.
I mean we could go back and forth on the benefits and cons of each. But that might derail the thread.
I'm basically looking at 7/7/7 in all three of them when I finally get to level this up on live, but I'm toying around with various other things while I still have a VA on test just to see what I can get out of the skills. I had a ton of respecs unused, and I still have 70k merits, lol.
As an engineer I have to ask what it is you want out of ground skills?
Turret boosting skills are what I invested in for ground based PVE. Weapons Malfunction would seem to be one of the better investments for ground PVP.
But the engineering tree is thin in terms of ground PVP. Just like the kits themselves are.
I want some pve abilities without getting my rear end owned hopelessly at normal (which sucks as I want to do space on elite)
Ah. Ground PVE is my specialty.
All you need is turrets 9. So you can train Phaser Turret III on your BO's. If you can set it up so you are placing a turret, and run with 3 engineers and 1 science officer, and have all three of your engineers using at least 2 turrets ... you will do two things ...
1- Create a laser light show that in the 1970s they would play Pink Floyd albums to. It's very pretty to watch.
2- Increase your Damage in any given encounter to the point where you will tear through Normal and Advanced settings with no difficulty at all.
The one science officer helps you survive the NPCs that cheat on advanced levels. The ones with the dual bolt spray and the weapons that shoot through shields.
The 3 engineers play up to your strengths.
I usually have each of my engineer BOFFs on my away team equipped with 2 turrets, 1 shield heal, 1 weapons malfunction.
It's a slaughter. A complete slaughter.
And you don't need to invest many Skill Points in ground skills.
I don't want to reduce my space effenceincy by taking out talent points from space to ground, not a single one of them.
that is why i support them beiing seperate and thus being able to skill in both without downgrading the other.
I have to double check. It's two medical tricorders. One other power that deals with radiation damage I think? (I got tired of the Borg assimilation) And the AoE gas fragile hold. Which comes in handy in stopping that initial charge/onslaught against dual pistol wielders.
My point is ... you don't have to.
There's such a small point investment in Ground PVE for an engineer that you can easily get to working levels in all relevant space combat skills, and still have room for the few ground skills you'll need.
The only way this won't happen is if you're trying to hit 9 in all your space skills.
And if that's how you're building your character ...
You need to go back to square 1. All of the guides I've ever read about character skill tree point out how 5 to 7 is what you shoot for and only go to 9 in a few select skills.
Does anyone read what I post?
I take every bloody edge how small it might be for space pvp hell it is is a 0.1% I wouldn't drop it.
Thanks for the Turrets Tip.
Does assimilation really deal radiation damage? I think at one point, I heard it was physical. So my medic carries dylovene...
Could explain why I feel like I'm melting whenever I get hit with assimilation.
I could swear it's radiation. Heh. Guess I need to pay more attention to my combat log.
Ah no worries. It's an old trick I picked up on these very forums back when I was still new to the game. I'm very set in my ways too. (I find it hard to switch to other ships and when I do I go nuts getting my keybinds set up the exact same way). So it's been with me for awhile. It was the difficulty slider itself that forced a change on me. Prior to that I used four engineers. With multiple turrets. It was insane.
I have stopped leveling in the attempt to actually learn what effects what, and what skills will mater in the long game. I have quietly noted the complaints of others involving the class I play (Engineer). I've listened to the debates about what is worth it, and how to possibly make some skills useful. However, the fact that the skills feel more like a labyrinth to be solved than a mechanic to be used.
Maybe it's that the game just kind of throws you in, the booklet (if you could call it that) that comes with the game is little more than a bookmaker or flier than an actualy how to play guide. I've had to use the forums to find out simple mechanics and keyboard functions.
If they restructure the skills, it would also be prudent to better document what effects will assist or stack, what effects are pointless to go for (not needed for build, or just plain useless to class), and either make the skills have a transparency (AKA: one skill effects both space and ground) or allow for the split training. I understand people who want to eek out every drop of performance from their build just as readily as I see the view of those who say "Take the hit to not suck down there". However I would have to say that I side more readily with the split training crowd in only that it fits fluff better than the "suffer" method.