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The Klingon Issue - From a Daily Klingon

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Suricata,

I appreciate that effort, I really do, but that post is exactly why Klingons don't try to come to this forum to talk to Cryptic. It is very difficult without moderation to have a productive post about the Klingon faction with Cryptic on this forum because most players don't play Klingon every day and simply misunderstand/confuse the issues.

For example, I see two regular daily Klingon players so far in the first 19 pages of that thread: KillingMeSoftly and Moonseye. If there are more - shame on me, and I hope they introduce themselves.

Here are a few points that appear misunderstood about the Klingon faction issues.

1) Klingons are not looking for equal content, they are looking for equal treatment by Cryptic. Cryptic is effectively engaged into the needs and desires of the everyday Federation player, but the every day Klingon player feels like daily Federation players who have a Klingon alt character have more representation with Cryptic regarding the direction of the Klingon Faction than every day Klingon players do.

2) There is a bit of psychology here. Since release the Klingon faction has a community that knows a unique playstyle from the Federation. Klingon players require teamwork to level, because without other players PvP matches take forever or are miserable. Klingon gameplay is almost entirely competitive in this team context. What aspect of Season 2 content is 1) team centric or 2) competitive?

In other words, Cryptic has given Klingons, who only know one style of gameplay, a ton of content that isn't anything like the Klingon gameplay style (admittedly, the artwork throughout on the Klingon side of Tribble is fantastic). Season 2 makes Klingon gameplay the same as Federation gameplay - quasi competitive solo activity in game where the player has no control over the storyline. This style of gameplay is all most Fed players know, so those Feds don't see how this would impact a community that plays Klingon because they are used to a different playstyle.

For the daily Klingon - the content doesn't register as being for them, because it has nothing in common with the way they have played since release.

3) Which leads to the next point. Klingons want content that is unique and distinct from Federation gameplay. That gameplay would be competitive and team centric, and I note that it does not have to be Player vs Player in the limited sense current PvP is. For example, a Targ hunting competition where the group of 5 is competing against one another for the biggest Targ or the most Targ is a good example. bat'leth tournaments are another example where a "mission" could instead be 16 players fight until there is a winner. Sector map PvP is great, but if you want Klingons to be unique from Federation gameplay - design content around the gameplay style of the community. As it is in Season 2.0, all this new PvE content is simply Federation gameplay style content that makes the Klingons more like the Feds.

I don't believe Fed style PvE content for Klingons will be good for the game long term. By making each faction have a unique game style of play, it opens up Romulans to being sneaky, Feds being explorers, Klingons being warriors, etc... Instead of everyone the same with a different skin.

And this should, in part, explain why Klingons are unhappy with Season 2.0. This is not about having equality of content, it has everything to do with the inequity of treatment by Cryptic to their existing Klingon playerbase. Klingon players have no voice - I know the dozen most helpful Klingons on Tribble, and with the exception of Edgecase I doubt Cryptic could name 5 Klingon daily players. While the community representation concept died as quickly as it arrived, the fact is Cryptic is actively engaged with Federation communities outside the forums - and the daily Klingon Empire leaders and active gamers have no meaningful representation in game, out of game, or on the forums.

Federation players who want Klingon new content and game play to match their PvE playstyle - please stop and consider the impact of that to the existing Klingon community and on future factions. I don't think it is surprising that the Klingon community is leaving in mass, after all, they have done everything else up to this point as a community group. The further we go down the road of new content matching Federation solo content gameplay, I fear the Klingon Empire will always be an incomplete faction where the majority of members are alt characters for Fed players - instead of a thriving independent faction unique within the game.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Well ,speaking for myself,

    I do want the klingon PvE content, and its beautifull on tribble.
    I do want a storyline of our own that we can follow if we chose to do so.
    I don't care much about PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    For the daily Klingon

    You still play Klingon on a daily basis? Wow, I feel for you. ;) Why do you want to torture yourself? You do know that Cryptic has pretty much ignored/insulted the Klingon players ever since closed beta, right?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    Well ,speaking for myself,

    I do want the klingon PvE content, and its beautifull on tribble.
    I do want a storyline of our own that we can follow if we chose to do so.
    I don't care much about PvP.


    Reversed

    I care more about PVP than PVE. The latter is fairly shameful at the moment.

    @Darksided

    Very nicely worded Dark, I couldn’t agree more!

    Oh and I am on page 18 :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The dev response to the Klingon issues can be found on Tribble right now.

    40 kills in Cracked Planet maps.

    See. You folks are making a difference.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Cpt_Duck wrote:
    Oh and I am on page 18 :p

    Then I really suck - missing someone in my own fleet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The dev response to the Klingon issues can be found on Tribble right now.

    40 kills in Cracked Planet maps.

    See. You folks are making a difference.

    Edited: Superchum there is no dev response. This is a PvP issue, not a Klingon specific issue. Stay on topic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The dev response to the Klingon issues can be found on Tribble right now.

    40 kills in Cracked Planet maps.

    See. You folks are making a difference.

    *just re-read what you typed never mind*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    I don't believe Fed style PvE content for Klingons will be good for the game long term. By making each faction have a unique game style of play, it opens up Romulans to being sneaky, Feds being explorers, Klingons being warriors, etc... Instead of everyone the same with a different skin.

    Sorry, but that argument just doesnt work. What makes each faction different and unique is their STORY, not whether they PvE or PvP. The things you just mentioned(exploration, combat, "sneakiness") are STORY elements, not gameplay mechanics. And besides, going by your logic what would the Roms be? Feds are ALREADY PvE and PvP, while Klingons are pretty much only PvP. If those are the only two equations your working with, the Roms would have to be like one or the other of the already existing factions when it comes to PvE and PvP. Saying that one faction is just a "PvP faction" is just a lame excuse to not have to make as content for them as another faction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Sorry, but that argument just doesnt work. What makes each faction different and unique is their STORY, not whether they PvE or PvP. The things you just mentioned(exploration, combat, "sneakiness") are STORY elements, not gameplay mechanics. And besides, going by your logic what would the Roms be? Feds are ALREADY PvE and PvP, while Klingons are pretty much only PvP. If those are the only two equations your working with, the Roms would have to be like one or the other of the already existing factions when it comes to PvE and PvP. Saying that one faction is just a "PvP faction" is just a lame excuse to not have to make as content for them as another faction.

    The Romulans would be what they are right now, which is non existent. Cryptic can't even come up with an effort to bring the Klingons somewhat up to par, so from this point of view it makes no sense at all to implement another faction.

    On a side note, I am a Daily Klingon that has posted in the above mentioned post as well as in many others. While I agree that we need more PvE content, for the sole purpose of making the level grind somewhat enjoyable, my main concern is the addition of refit and possibly new ships for Klingons.

    While I can see this is not necessarily on top of the Devs list, I also believe that we kind of earned it simply for the fact that we are still here.After all designing a refit ship can't be that difficult, since Dstahl posted somewhere that 2 of the Federation refits were done overnight.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    You really think Klingons want this? Name one.

    Bob the Yak says he likes it
    Come on Superchum, for once don't troll a thread I write.

    I just find it odd that this organized "call to arms" is going to ignore the one change that is going to have the biggest impact on the Klingon side of things.

    So while your post is talking about the psychological affects of content imbalance ... the devs are fast making a change to PVP maps that is going to have a much larger impact on the KDF's immediate gameplay experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Lots of interesting thoughts in the original post. Interesting to think of the Klingons as the team-oriented playstyle.
    Darksided wrote: »
    1) Klingons are not looking for equal content, they are looking for equal treatment by Cryptic.

    It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".

    At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.

    I'm not sure how you could bring more attention to your cause, because unless the Devs see serving the current Klingon model as a way of retaining/acquiring players not attracted to the Federation game, its going to become more and more hemogenous with the main Federation-style experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NikeOnline wrote: »
    It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".

    Equal treatment would include actually talking to every day Klingons. It has been months since Cryptic visited Klingon forums, for example, to get the opinion of Klingons regarding the Season 2 update which was supposed to be for Klingons.

    Just treat Klingons fairly by communicating with the community the same was they do with the Federation. Content equality is never a reason Klingons leave the game - the fact that our concerns, bug reports, and opinions are not represented or addressed is a much bigger issue.

    For example - Cannon Scatter Volley has been broken since Season 1.2 update, and will not be addressed until Season 2 goes live. Since PvP is virtually all there is to do as a Klingon in Season 1.2, Cryptic shrugged off a huge bug instead of addressing it - even though it has a huge impact on Klingon gameplay.

    When was the last time a major bug influence Fed gameplay for any extended period of time - like the entire time between major updates. I'm sure you wouldn't care... but the history of this forum suggests the outrage would drown out every other issue.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NikeOnline wrote: »
    Lots of interesting thoughts in the original post. Interesting to think of the Klingons as the team-oriented playstyle.



    It may help to consider you're NEVER going to get "equal treatment"... nor should you. You (as a category of player/customers) are, at best, going to get proportional treatment. If I take your statements at face value, there aren't a lot of "daily Klingons".

    At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.

    I'm not sure how you could bring more attention to your cause, because unless the Devs see serving the current Klingon model as a way of retaining/acquiring players not attracted to the Federation game, its going to become more and more hemogenous with the main Federation-style experience.

    As much as I like the OP's thoughts, I have to agree with this one also. Proportional treatment is more like what the Klingons will get, and as I've said in other posts, I believe the Klingon side should be fleshed out more, but I think getting an identical set of missions/story line would really do them an injustice. Make the Klingon story more internal to the Klingon side of things and then overlap with the Federation side where it advances the story line and the Klingons could be a viable faction to play for the long term.

    Being strictly pvp is limiting to them and also limits their interactions with the Fed side. And I can see where that could definitely be improved, how is the harder question to answer,
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Sorry, but that argument just doesnt work. What makes each faction different and unique is their STORY, not whether they PvE or PvP. The things you just mentioned(exploration, combat, "sneakiness") are STORY elements, not gameplay mechanics. And besides, going by your logic what would the Roms be? Feds are ALREADY PvE and PvP, while Klingons are pretty much only PvP. If those are the only two equations your working with, the Roms would have to be like one or the other of the already existing factions when it comes to PvE and PvP. Saying that one faction is just a "PvP faction" is just a lame excuse to not have to make as content for them as another faction.

    So the game is only about story? As someone part of an entire faction community that has played STO from release without a storyline, it would appear your "story" theory is completely contrary to all available evidence at hand to date.

    The style of play was determined by Cryptic when they decided to create a community without a story, and drive playstyle towards teamwork and competition in order to level. There are plenty of ways to create content that support competition and teamwork without making it a PvP queue map - and indeed many of those ways could be PvE in nature.

    As for PvP and PvE, those are the only equations you are working with. My point is Cryptic needs a new equations if they want to appeal to the player community in the Klingon Empire - because as feedback from Season 2 is demonstrating, the same equation approach with quasi competitive storyline PvE content to the Klingon faction has basically alienated what Klingons are left.

    I read the post you made the other day about Klingons Grand.Nagus, and even saw you had a Dev response within. I posted about it on the Klingon forum, and based on the feedback I have got from my post on your post - most Klingons who actually play think your opinions are bad for our faction, don't represent most Klingons, represent the insights of a Fed who has a Klingon alt, and in general highlights the perception problem among Klingon players that an opinion like yours regarding Klingon gameplay gets a Dev response while everday Klingons are ignored by Devs regarding Klingon specific issues and feedback.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    I just find it odd that this organized "call to arms" is going to ignore the one change that is going to have the biggest impact on the Klingon side of things.

    So while your post is talking about the psychological affects of content imbalance ... the devs are fast making a change to PVP maps that is going to have a much larger impact on the KDF's immediate gameplay experience.

    /facepalm

    Yes, because what Klingons have been calling for is a change to a PvP map so that matches will be even longer, making it even harder to level. Come on Superchum, no devs have responded to that change on Tribble, we have no idea why it happened, and since we know the change to 40 kills all but killed ground PvP queues - we have good evidence regarding what impact that change would have on game play on Halodeck.

    That is not a Klingon specific issue either - it will impact Feds even more, considering FvF is much more active PvP than any KvK or FvK is right now. PvP issues directly impact Klingons, no doubt, but that isn't a Klingon specific change - all factual evidence contradicts such an implication.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think the new klingon pve content is a great start to improving faction, it's a small step to inreasing KDF content.

    We still need alot more pve storylinge missions to improve player interest.

    I no longer see pvp as being an important reason for playing KDF chars as there is no longer any uniqueness to it, the new fed ships have same slots/weapons/cloak/skills as the KDF ships with exception of bop which is extremely weak if battle becomes prolonged. The new carrier i see as a pointless ship to use due to having nearly zero turning ability and the single skul fighter bay is of very little use in pvp.

    As game stands i've lost interest in the pvp aspect of klingon faction so extra pve missions is a must in my opinion to keep an interest in game and to improve faction population.


    Cha'sak - KDF tac
    Angelus - KDF sci
    Gizmo - KDF eng
    Whisp - Fed eng
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NikeOnline wrote: »
    At the moment, it looks to Cryptic like the Federation style of content is more successful at entertaining the largest percentage of their customers. So they are pushing Klingon play to be more like that model to entice the majority, rather than to serve the minority.

    One more thought on this.

    The players of the Klingon Empire are secondary citizens of Star Trek Online because they are treated as secondary citizens by Crypitc. For months Cryptic would promise how Season 2 was to be dedicated to helping Klingon players - and this hype was designed and intended to be for the existing Klingon playerbase. Well, Season 2 is here, and we got shafted. We get a small number of new PvE missions - which I will concede are fantastic efforts (particularly visually) - but existing Klingons never asked for this. We also got a new ship. Everything else we get is shared content. The Federation on the other hand gets an entire new tree of missions and rewards for diplomacy. The Federation also gets 3-5 new ships. They also get the shared content. It is impossible to call Season 2 a Klingon patch, not when we are getting a few bones from the cow while the Feds are chowing on new Tenderloins.

    Klingon players have been calling for new ships and have been highlighting the existing BOFF issues with our current ships. We have been delivered a new ship - a Galactic Garbage Carrier. The Federation not only gets three new ships, but they are all of iconic design and come with new special abilities. To add insult to injury, the new ships are first given incredibly overpowered BOFFs, then reduced to have the same BOFF configuration of existing Klingon ships. AND NOW, only after the Feds have this new specialized BOFF configuration that Klingons have always been frustrated about, the complaints Klingons have had since release regarding BOFF specialization are being heard - because Feds are unhappy with it?

    We are second class citizen when we have to make our problems the same as a Federation player in order to get any attention to our problems.

    When Cryptic responds to Klingon issues that are clearly only problems to Federation players building alt characters - instead of listening to existing daily Klingon playerbase - Cryptic is establishing the social contract that existing Klingon players are second class.

    We are exactly what we have been made to be. Proportional treatment indeed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Equal treatment would include actually talking to every day Klingons. It has been months since Cryptic visited Klingon forums, for example, to get the opinion of Klingons regarding the Season 2 update which was supposed to be for Klingons.

    Just treat Klingons fairly by communicating with the community the same was they do with the Federation. Content equality is never a reason Klingons leave the game - the fact that our concerns, bug reports, and opinions are not represented or addressed is a much bigger issue.

    So, one thing you are looking for is a few more posts in that forum? Not an excessive request in my mind. But the Feddies will tell you that dev communication is pretty erratic (and sometimes entirly meaningless when compared with what actually happens in game), so don't think that just getting a pat on the head with a few posts will automatically mean anything where the rubber meets the road ;).
    For example - Cannon Scatter Volley has been broken since Season 1.2 update, and will not be addressed until Season 2 goes live. Since PvP is virtually all there is to do as a Klingon in Season 1.2, Cryptic shrugged off a huge bug instead of addressing it - even though it has a huge impact on Klingon gameplay.

    I'm not really sure how they prioritize their bug database. All kinds of oddities seem to slip through for months at a time. I wouldn't say Klingons are being singled out... But if things are being dealt with proportionately to the people engaged in using those things, then PvP being sort of low on the totem pole makes sense.

    They need to make progress on lots of fronts. Hopefully they can allocate some time to your front, becuse it seems like a way some folks are having a good time, and it may be being neglected more than is fair to those customers.
    When was the last time a major bug influence Fed gameplay for any extended period of time - like the entire time between major updates. I'm sure you wouldn't care... but the history of this forum suggests the outrage would drown out every other issue.

    Hmm. I thought my Mirror Universe uniforms not being available for months after launch was a pretty severe bug :rolleyes:. I let my subscription lapse after the first month until they fixed it. I doubt losing my $15-$30 was a big spur to them to fix it, but they did fix it eventually, and started getting my money again (from time to time) as a result.

    Other than that I've manged to dodge or scootch around what bugs I knew about.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I agree with Suricata's post more than the OP's. But of course I do feel Cryptic has been neglecting the Klingon side for a long time, and continues to neglect them while throwing them a bone now and then to keep up appearances. But the same could be said about the entirety of STO after launch.

    At any rate, my opinion on what you stated, OP...
    Darksided wrote: »
    1) Klingons are not looking for equal content, they are looking for equal treatment by Cryptic.

    I agree in that I feel Cryptic should give equal "treatment" instead of equal "content". But when you say "Klingons", you're incorrectly lumping everyone else into our opinion, which isn't fair.
    Darksided wrote: »
    2) There is a bit of psychology here. Since release the Klingon faction has a community that knows a unique playstyle from the Federation. Klingon players require teamwork to level, because without other players PvP matches take forever or are miserable. (...) This style of gameplay is all most Fed players know, so those Feds don't see how this would impact a community that plays Klingon because they are used to a different playstyle.

    I disagree to a point. STO's gameplay mechanics is the same for both sides. Sure, each side uses different strategy and tactics in PvP since the ships are different, but the mechanics are all the same. It's still the same game. And if the PvE content was there, your day-to-day Klingon gameplay could be almost identical to the Fed side.

    Your first point was much more valid since we're talking about needing the same level of commitment to fleshing out the Klingons instead of just copying and pasting all of the code and resources to add to Klingon PvE.
    Darksided wrote: »
    3) Which leads to the next point. Klingons want content that is unique and distinct from Federation gameplay.

    I agree 100%. However...
    Darksided wrote: »
    I don't believe Fed style PvE content for Klingons will be good for the game long term. By making each faction have a unique game style of play, it opens up Romulans to being sneaky, Feds being explorers, Klingons being warriors, etc... Instead of everyone the same with a different skin.

    You're trying to merge the topic of faction-specific development with the motivation of "unique" gameplay style. That's a very weak tie-in and why others are arguing with you. Your motive is genuine and some of what you want (more attention/development on the Klingon side) is also what I want, but your reasoning for that is debatable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    As game stands i've lost interest in the pvp aspect of klingon faction so extra pve missions is a must in my opinion to keep an interest in game and to improve faction population.

    Starseeker13,

    The Federation has enough PvE content that a Fed player can level to VA without PvP - I've done it, RA5 on Halodeck and VA1 on Tribble - all with 0 PvP.

    Even if you count all the new PvE content on Tribble for Klingons, one can't find enough mission XP to get from BG5 to LtGen on Tribble. I know, because I am a LtGen on Tribble, did all the missions to test, and still had to grind the rest of the way. There isn't even 10K worth of XP with the Klingon missions, and the cap is 72,700.

    PvP isn't going away, it will still be critical to new Klingons who level - particularly if they want the best gear (the PvP venders on Ganalda have more choices than the exploration venders on Qonos). I agree the new content is nice, since I tested it all for them and think the artwork is simply amazing, but at the end of the day Klingons are either the longest exploration grind in the game or a PvP faction that requires other players to level.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    (Stands up and clears throat)

    I am a daily Klingon.

    (sits back down, but eyes the doughnuts and free coffee with maliciuos intent)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NikeOnline wrote: »
    Hmm. I thought my Mirror Universe uniforms not being available for months after launch was a pretty severe bug :rolleyes:.

    Are you suggesting a character costume bug is in any way a bug equal to a PvP bug - when a PvP bug impacts the primary form of gameplay available to the entire Klingon faction?

    /facepalm

    Please lord, give me patience when communicating to absolutely f-in ignorant foolish mfers on this forum.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    One more thought on this.

    ...

    We are second class citizen when we have to make our problems the same as a Federation player in order to get any attention to our problems.

    When Cryptic responds to Klingon issues that are clearly only problems to Federation players building alt characters - instead of listening to existing daily Klingon playerbase - Cryptic is establishing the social contract that existing Klingon players are second class.

    We are exactly what we have been made to be. Proportional treatment indeed.

    Hmm. Every play a little Cryptic MMO called City of Villians?

    Been there, done that, and it didn't get fixed even after several years of development time on the shared platform. Appearantly the lessons learned from that bifurcation of the players was to produce shared content. They skipped pretty directly to that phase on this game :o.

    I'm trying to think how you can best serve your goals. My first thought is you might try using the forums to organize PvP events on a regular schedule. The more people there are using the tool, the more the Devs will care about keeping it polished and sharp. Grow the population playing AS AND WITH 'daily Klingons'. Make the proportionality work for you. If there are people saying "I subscribe to this game because I am a part of the "Friday Night Phaserfight" events." then when folks that organize the event ask for something to be looked at, you've got some traction. Player run events are very improtant to the health of a game with such obvious problems with retention at the end game. Scratch their back and they'll scratch yours.

    Another way you might get better attention is to stage demonstratons of bugs. Pick a regular time when Devs are in office and arrange for GMs and Devs to be present when you illustrate a problem with live play.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Are you suggesting a character costume bug is in any way a bug equal to a PvP bug - when a PvP bug impacts the primary form of gameplay available to the entire Klingon faction?

    /facepalm

    Please lord, give me patience when communicating to absolutely f-in ignorant foolish mfers on this forum.

    Hey, it was a determing factor for me. You want to poke fun at my reasons for playing, but can't figure out why other people don't give a rat's left buttock about your concerns? Look in the mirror and think on it a little harder.

    I'm dealling with you pretty civilly, but I can stop if you like.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    Well ,speaking for myself,

    I do want the klingon PvE content, and its beautifull on tribble.
    I do want a storyline of our own that we can follow if we chose to do so.
    I don't care much about PvP.

    I agree Klingons have a vast history some PVE would be excellent.

    And in case no one has noticed the PVP in this game sux for the klingons and the feds. The game is half finished if it is to survive Klingon content is a MUST as well as a more fleshed out PVP. RIght now it's play Fed to RA then quit or play alt the game needs more depth and fleshing out the Klingons is the way to create

    1) A more balanced experience
    2) Larger Klingon player base leading to better PVP.

    just my humble opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Darksided wrote: »

    PvP isn't going away, it will still be critical to new Klingons who level - particularly if they want the best gear (the PvP venders on Ganalda have more choices than the exploration venders on Qonos). I agree the new content is nice, since I tested it all for them and think the artwork is simply amazing, but at the end of the day Klingons are either the longest exploration grind in the game or a PvP faction that requires other players to level.


    Any new KDF players are leveling by constant monotonous exploration grinds as i did with my last char. this is the only efficient way to level a klingon char at the moment without spending a total of a few hours waiting in pvp queues for very little xp. The pvp queues even at BG level are now empty the vast majority of the time on KDF side since the feds got cloaks and ships with special abilities, this will be even more apparent when season 2 goes live on holo.

    Alot of new Klingon pve content is the only way to improve KDF other than revising the skills available to both faction to create uniqueness, the few missions we get in season 2 is a very small but important step towards improving KDF population.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I disagree to a point. STO's gameplay mechanics is the same for both sides. Sure, each side uses different strategy and tactics in PvP since the ships are different, but the mechanics are all the same. It's still the same game. And if the PvE content was there, your day-to-day Klingon gameplay could be almost identical to the Fed side.

    You're trying to merge the topic of faction-specific development with the motivation of "unique" gameplay style. That's a very weak tie-in and why others are arguing with you. Your motive is genuine and some of what you want (more attention/development on the Klingon side) is also what I want, but your reasoning for that is debatable.

    I welcome that debate (or argument) cipher_nemo, because I think it goes to the core of the Klingon issue - and truly desire this post to flesh out this issue. I have seen hundreds - literally hundreds - of players who played exclusively Klingon leave the game because Cryptic has added exactly 2 things to the entire game that were in line with the type of gameplay Cryptic created for the Klingon community - Shanty Town and Special Task Forces. If you look at these two additions - the new PvP map for ground PvP and the team centric Special Task Forces - that is the only content added to the Klingon side since release that was in line with community, team centric playstyle of Klingons.

    Style of play is very important, and this isn't about mechanics - we shouldn't confuse the two. You have to understand, if you play Klingon everyday - unless you grind explorations only - you cannot play Klingon without interacting with other players. It is simply impossible. Every Klingon players game style is centric to the theme of interacting with other players - either in cooperation or competition - it is the style of game play they absolutely must enjoy in order to play Klingon - otherwise they are playing STO in misery. A Fed player does not need ANY contact with other players to enjoy multiple elements of the game. It is the difference between the complete absence of interaction and the solid, starting requirement of interaction. This has a huge impact on large communities - an impact that simply can't be shrugged away.

    If Cryptic came along and told Federation players that ALL new content was going to force them to be grouped and competitive with other players - how many Feds would be happy? The same is true when Cryptic comes along as produces ALL new content that doesn't require a group and is not competitive for a Klingon. Klingons are outraged - most feel insulted - and it is impossible to miss why that is the case.

    The new content on Tribble is great - I've played all of it available to Klingons and have screenshots in posts up and down all the Tribble forums - but the rejection reaction by Klingons is entirely predictable. In every single remaining Klingon fleet - the talk is about leaving the game, and in many cases the exodus has begun.

    Does Cryptic care? Does Cryptic even recognize the issue? Does anyone besides me see how the new Klingon content, no matter how good, is basically a wasted effort because it is a complete mismatch with the playstyle Cryptic forced upon the entire Klingon community? Will it attract Federation players to play the Klingon faction? If so, great, but realize these players are unlikely to be more than alts of a Fed centric player - and the Klingon community built from release until now is the core of the Klingon Empire - and that core is disappearing precisely because of the mismatch between the game play style of the new content and the existing player base of the Klingon community.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NikeOnline wrote: »
    Hey, it was a determing factor for me. You want to poke fun at my reasons for playing, but can't figure out why other people don't give a rat's left buttock about your concerns? Look in the mirror and think on it a little harder.

    I'm dealling with you pretty civilly, but I can stop if you like.

    Fair enough. Note how the content that bothered you was completely individual centric content that impacted no one elses ability to play except you. Note how the content issues I am discussing impacts the every single Klingon players gameplay - the entire community.

    The scopes are different, and I would argue, under equal treatment the problems with a scope that includes an entire community would be higher than one of an individual. Not the case when the community is Klingon and the individual is Fed - at least that is the perception of Klingons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    Well ,speaking for myself,

    I do want the klingon PvE content, and its beautifull on tribble.
    I do want a storyline of our own that we can follow if we chose to do so.
    I don't care much about PvP.

    what he said
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I'm not altogether sure what direction this thread is going at this point, however I'll chime in.

    My observation is that there are two distinct Klingon camps.

    One wants the KDF to be fleshed out and something of a mirror of the Fed experience. They want to play the same game the Feds are playing, just as Klingons. They want story missions, plenty of PVE options, and basically they want to be a separate but equal faction.

    The other group wants Cryptic to focus on the original intent of the Klingon faction as the PVP faction. They want better PVP and more reason to PVP including open PVP/territory control. There might be some interest in PVE content here, so long as it promotes the general PVP atmosphere, like competitive PVE.

    And of course some folks would be happy with either or both.

    Personally I want both. I think Cryptic has a great opportunity to give some general perspective on the overall plot from the Klingon side of things, and episodes that promote that are good additions to the game. I really like the new Klingon episodes, but I also know that it is not remotely enough to take the place of the primary focus of the KDF which is still PVP.

    Having just leveled a second BG5, I know it has changed a lot since launch. My first BG5 was all PVP, but the second barely got any PVP done, and had to grind on exploration and nebula repeatables. There is not enough varied PVE content on the KDF side to have good PVE leveling. It would be nice if there was, but expecting it now or even soon is completely unrealistic.

    What I want in the near term, to help the KDF, is to give more reason to PVP, especially at low levels. Feds need to be attracted to the queues. Klingons need to be attracted to the queues, including KVK queues.

    This absurd change to 40 kills in space arena maps is NOT THE ANSWER! I'm still hoping to find out its a terrible bug and a mistake, because I can't see myself sitting through matches that long.

    But, in the short term, they need to get more people wanting to go to the queues and do PVP. The rewards are pitiful currently, but there should be another hook in any case. They put in a diplomatic corps with its own leveling rewards, so why not invent a battlefield corps of some kind with its own rewards that rewards constant PVPers with benefits? Maybe special variants of ships that have a little more hull strength, for example?

    That is really the direction I think they need to go. The PVE experience on the KDF side is just not adequate, and it can't be brought up to the same level as the Federation side in the near future at all. However, it should be easier and faster to expand the PVP game and create more reasons to PVP, to have it give its own rewards, not just another way of getting the same equipment you can get from PVE.
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