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a debate of Ablative generator issued to all vessels...

Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
Future Adm. Janeway invented the Ablative armor, since there was a Great advantage against the borg, the possibility of Starfleet high command declared to have each ship equipped with it for unexpected encounters with the borg... well one man thats has great intellect and thats in the top of the chain of command will do.. right? does it make sense? and its also APPLICABLE to real life if an technology that is beneficial...

and Either way Janeway will still discover that ablative gen its only a matter when...

so my point here i say let the Ablative generator be issued to all ships.... like an Crafting thing or buying it with marks or sumthin special...

this explanation should be enough... or someone would like to add more...

and those that dont like the idea state your idea here and why?
Post edited by Archived Post on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Might be a nice feature for escorts...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    nah forget it lol it be an unbalance to pvp lol... Klingons will be complaining again...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Well, my question would be simply, why should it be added as an ability to all ships? What is the sound reasoning for it to be made available as an option to any starship in the game?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    well come to think of it... look at the episode... the Ablative armor was 1st seen in a shuttle? am i wrong?

    then it was easily transferred to the inteprid...

    so it would make sense... that ships at that time had the ablative gen.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    joseph001 wrote:
    well come to think of it... look at the episode... the Ablative armor was 1st seen in a shuttle? am i wrong?

    then it was easily transferred to the inteprid...

    so it would make sense... that ships at that time had the ablative gen.

    But for what advantage/disadvantage?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    well firstly it looks cool secondly i think it would have become standard issue and the advantages would be increased defense and an almost indestructible ship for a little while until the armour fails and the disadvantage, when in use ships dont seam to have shields
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I thought the Ablative Armor was originally part of the Defiant?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    joseph001 wrote:
    nah forget it lol it be an unbalance to pvp lol... Klingons will be complaining again...

    Given the side effects - No we wouldn't, at least I wouldn't.

    I will say that I believe it should stay as a special feature on just the one ship for now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    I thought the Ablative Armor was originally part of the Defiant?

    thats ablative armour, thats kinda like a second hull or a coating made to take the damage from enemy fire and then it has to be replaced. i think not to sure but tanks have ablative armour.
    the ablative armour were on about is more like a completely new shield tech i suppose that forms a hull around the ship protecting it, i suppose the reasoning for calling it ablative armour was that it is kind of like the old ablative armour
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think the Defiant version and the End Game Voyager are different applications of the same base technology. Think of Defiant as the small experiment and End Game being the "final" application of the technology as it were.

    As for in game, no it should not be on all ships. Story wise we have very little info on the tech. We only saw it on a shuttle and Voyager. Both are small ships comparatively. For all we know generators might not be feasible to deploy on cruisers due to size. Escorts, maybe, however with the issues the Defiant first had and the need for power to weapons on escorts it could be argued that it's not feasible for escorts to have the tech either since the power draw might take away from the engine and weapon needs.

    As for Starfleet not using the tech, in the Path to 2409 there were many in Starfleet who thought the Borg were gone for good despite warnings from 7 and Janeway. Not to mention the Temporal Prime Directive. The temporal division might have stopped it's development until the timeline caught up, which is about where we are now. Hence the tech has sat until the right time in which case you start using it on the ship type you know it will work on, Intrepid type ships.

    Game play wise, adding it to all ships takes away from the unique ability of the refit Intrepid so that would need something new. Not to mention the Klingon issue unless you give it to them. Not to mention it would add an unnecessary layer of protection to all ships drawing out battles. You already need to drain at least a shield facing and then kill the hull as is to defeat an enemy. How having to drain a shield, drain or wait out the ablative armor, then kill the hull would be overkill if not impossible as long as the armor was available within the cool down.

    It's a unique power for one class of high level ship that offers a trade off from other similar class of ships at that tier. I think the devs did fine with what they're doing with the new refit ships and abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    castmodean wrote: »
    But for what advantage/disadvantage?

    I suggest it be a type of gear on non-Intrepid ships, incurring an added disadvantage that you have to consume a slot of some sort.

    I would suggest the deflector if you are feeling conservative, or the shield generator itself if you are feeling nerfy. If it was the shield gen it would function like a purple base mk XII shield with fewer or no modifiers (yes this armor would be mk XII gear)

    Then it would just function as it does now, by making you briefly invulnerable and crippling your weapons to torpedo only.

    Perhaps it could also incur a major power drain to activate, and continue to tap aux power until it goes offline...

    This way it has its uses to those who want it, but doesn't tear up the balance.

    With the proper (read here not insanely long, I'm looking at you Cryptic, and not too short, Im looking at you players) cooldown, and the proper rarity or difficulty in obtaining it, it would make a nice piece of high level 'epic' gear to shoot for.

    (My personal cooldown suggestion? 3 minutes of up-time, with premature deactivation possible, 8 minute cool-down period, whether de-activated prematurely or not)

    Also, if set up properly, it would be less effective as a whole for all the other ships, being most useful overall on the new T5 intrepid (perhaps the new Intrepid gets a boost to armor up time, in addition to the not having to consume a deflector slot. It might also incur less or no power drain)

    To save trouble with visual implementation, simply set up a Visual effect similar to some of the powers that create a 'skin tight' field around a ship (like Aceton) to draw on the specular maps of a ship, which look alot like armor in the first place.

    This also lets it be used on all customized ship variants.

    The only other suggestion I have is to set it to be most useful for sci and escort, and least for cruiser.
    Whether thats done by altering the length of use, CD, or power drain I don't know...

    I'm just suggesting that the larger the hull, the more of a hit you have to take to make it invulnerable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The ablative armor generators are doing the same thing as the ablative armor on the Defiant. It just seems the Generators create a suit around a ship while the Defiant is specifically built with ablative armor.

    The technology though is entirely useless to most of Starfleet. If you want armor on your ship... build the ship with armor in the first place. As Endgame demonstrated the armor seems to disable the shields, weapons and logically consume a massive amount of energy / mass.

    I suppose it might be a stealing of the Borg regeneration concept where they can literally restore physical damage to their ship somehow. Generators would use massive amounts of energy to create an armor coating and replace it as it gets spent. I can only assume the thing is building on replicator technology to make armor plates otherwise... the Federation can suddenly make armor appear from nowhere ?

    That said, the Borg were able to adapt to the technology rather quickly and I didnt see the E-E or Rhode Island using the tech so I see no real basis to say the armor is anything special.

    Result: Leave it alone on the Intrepid
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    TBH, all the stuff from Endgame should simply be forgotten. The episode was to horrible to warrant the existing of all those stuff in game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    joseph001 wrote:
    [...]so my point here i say let the Ablative generator be issued to all ships.... like an Crafting thing or buying it with marks or sumthin special...
    [...]

    Nice,

    And Cloak for all sci ships too ? :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Idali wrote:
    TBH, all the stuff from Endgame should simply be forgotten. The episode was to horrible to warrant the existing of all those stuff in game.

    Most people do not share your opinion, myself included. I thought it was a brilliant bit of storytelling, and it got the "geek" in me rather excited to see future (as in future to the timeline) tech introduced. Some of my favorite episodes in Star Trek deal with tech from the timeline's future.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Best way to think of ablative armor would be to think of it as holograpic armor. As long as power is put into the system it generates a virtual armor layer over the actual hull of the ship. Cut power and it vanishes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    hadnt the borg adapted to the future armor though?

    if i remember correctly from watching END GAME the other day the Queen said to Future Janeway

    "I may have assimulated your pathagen, but i also assimulated your armor technology.."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    defiant had sheets of ablative armor bonded to its spaceframe voyager had advanced replicators installed that when activated would sheet the ship in a second skin of thick armor plate like the batmobile in the micheal keaton batman movie. as ablative armor is burned away it supposedly creates a cloud of particles that dissapates energy weapon effects with the generators more plates to replace damaged ones.
    so on defiant once gone you got to get replacements from starbase . voyager can bascically replicate it
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    If that is how it works the Defiant and warships that already have ablative armor will use it better than those without.

    They already have armor so all the generator has to do is replace it...
    With ships like Voyager it requires the generators to literally coat the entire ship to start with and THEN keep up replacing it.

    Regardless, one can easily say all ships have generators installed already... afterall when we repair enough of our hull it can go from wrecked to pristine instantly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Afaik the only think similar between Ablative generators and Ablative armor (intrepid/defiant) is the word Ablative.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ruivo wrote:
    Afaik the only think similar between Ablative generators and Ablative armor (intrepid/defiant) is the word Ablative.

    Precisely. Voyager had the Ablative Generator, not to be confused with Ablative Armor which was used on the Defiant and some other ships. Two completely seperate technologies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Archanubis wrote:
    Might be a nice feature for escorts...

    mm yes than instead of 2 klingons I can take on three or four.....

    but no this would be bad for game balance.


    sad thing is federation always had superior defences and klingons more firepower, for a game both need to have the same these days or people start to whine and cry very loudly (see WoW getting more generalized each patch)

    so that would mean handing it over to the klingons as well which game wise is oke, but not needed seeing it wouldn't add anything save for a bit more hull hp which is eaten away fast enough anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    sovereign wrote: »
    Precisely. Voyager had the Ablative Generator, not to be confused with Ablative Armor which was used on the Defiant and some other ships. Two completely seperate technologies.

    Yeah TRIBBLE them for giving it the same name it is a constant confusion in the pen and paper rpg I play.


    But he talked about a generator which mean voy stile shell armour and nor defiant stile embedded armour.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    sovereign wrote: »
    Precisely. Voyager had the Ablative Generator, not to be confused with Ablative Armor which was used on the Defiant and some other ships. Two completely seperate technologies.

    Well it DID confuse me dammit!

    Especially since the Ablative gimmick on the Intrepid is ... armor it seems from the pics that have been posted.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    well as a matter of fact both armours work with the same trick.

    they spread out the energy from a blast and let some of the armour boil off to get rid of that energy in the form of heat.

    With the defiant that means after each fight where it got hit the armour would needed to be replaced in sections and for voyager it would mean shutting of the generators and allow the to replicate enough of it and get it going again, (this is very VERY baseline as nothing concreet is really know about how it is placed etc)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Voyager style armor is just TRIBBLE due to the obvious fact it is simply putting a hunk of armor over everything.

    Good if your wanting to be a turtle otherwise embedded armor or at least armor that allows you to use shields + weapons would be more effective in a warship.

    Although according to Memory Alpha the E-A had Armor Generators so the concept is old and works by using replicators. As such, the only aspect of the Ablative Armor Generators that is new in Voyager is the fact the materials of the armor is obvious tougher than anything seen before.

    Tougher Armor that one can simply say is already built into current starships and the generators are part of the ship repairing process ingame when your healing yourself.


    If all your asking for is the ability to change your ship skin to a slick armored model... thats the C-Store cosmetic item

    If your asking for the ability to become invulnerable by coating yourself in super thick armor... eh ?
    Engineering Captain Ability or Officer Ability perhaps.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    J-Sheridan wrote:
    Voyager style armor is just TRIBBLE due to the obvious fact it is simply putting a hunk of armor over everything.

    Good if your wanting to be a turtle otherwise embedded armor or at least armor that allows you to use shields + weapons would be more effective in a warship.

    Although according to Memory Alpha the E-A had Armor Generators so the concept is old and works by using replicators. As such, the only aspect of the Ablative Armor Generators that is new in Voyager is the fact the materials of the armor is obvious tougher than anything seen before.

    Tougher Armor that one can simply say is already built into current starships and the generators are part of the ship repairing process ingame when your healing yourself.


    If all your asking for is the ability to change your ship skin to a slick armored model... thats the C-Store cosmetic item

    If your asking for the ability to become invulnerable by coating yourself in super thick armor... eh ?
    Engineering Captain Ability or Officer Ability perhaps.

    The voy armour is indeed replicated on the spot at a fast rate and can be de-materialized for a few seconds to allow weapons fire (as seen with torpedoes) However it cannot allow you to fire phasers for removing the armour over such a large area would seriously endanger the stability of the armour shell. (phaser cannons would work due they fact they are just as big as a torp launcher)

    Also shields can be used with the shell up, but would need to be extended beyond the shell which means their power would close to vanish making it far more worthwhile to drop them and allow them to recharge.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Liandras wrote:
    The voy armour is indeed replicated on the spot at a fast rate and can be de-materialized for a few seconds to allow weapons fire (as seen with torpedoes) However it cannot allow you to fire phasers for removing the armour over such a large area would seriously endanger the stability of the armour shell. (phaser cannons would work due they fact they are just as big as a torp launcher)

    There was no 'de-materialisation'. The armor piece literally moved up to allow the rear launcher to fire. The rest of this was not mentioned in the episode so unless you can come up with a CANON source for it... worthless.

    Liandras wrote:
    Also shields can be used with the shell up, but would need to be extended beyond the shell which means their power would close to vanish making it far more worthwhile to drop them and allow them to recharge.

    Again, provide proof of this via a canon source.

    The armor is covering the shield emitters as well as the weapons so there is much a chance the shields wont work with that armor on.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    joseph001 wrote:
    Future Adm. Janeway invented the Ablative armor, since there was a Great advantage against the borg, the possibility of Starfleet high command declared to have each ship equipped with it for unexpected encounters with the borg...

    wait, didn't voyager pick up the tech on the way home from the delta quad? Janeway went back in time with it. Voyager jumped set time and came home without ever meeting the race they got the armor from.

    So, wasn't time rewritten and the generator never should exist in the federation to begin with. It should have vanished when they jumped home.

    so, how could she even have it to give to starfleet to be installed in our ships?

    that is kinda far fetched
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Admiral Janeway did NOT invent that technology, there is nothing that says Voyager was even involved with it's creation.

    If the E-A had the basis for the generator concept and the Defiant the basis for the armor... I dont think its far-fetched to think Starfleet put 1+1 together to get Ablative armor Generators souped up with improvements developed over the years. Possibly even from Borg tech.

    Although we didnt see the Rhode Island or E-E use this technology so there is no indication it was ever employed again.
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