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ideas for pvp bal. and carry over to pve

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited July 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I carried this over from another area of this forum.

there needs to be some sort of rebalance, i have Cap'd toons on both sides and am sad to see it when 1 bob almost 1 shots a Cruiser or what STO calls cruisers, NO single BoP should be able to take out a cruiser alone bop's are OP badly. Large ships can carry the warp cores to power large weapons load outs but have to give up turn, a bop can carry large weapons loadouts with out giving up any turn or shields example im a RA and i want to fly a T5 bop...i want my load out to be 2 Type Xheavy cans. 1Type X duel bank, 1 type X torp forward and lets just say 1 beam and 1 mine rear, well that fine but your only gonna be able to load some thing like a Type Viii shield and a Type V impulse so i get my big alpha strike but i cant sit still and out turn u anymore and fly around in a BoP with 5 ships hitting it and not taking damage! if i want o have a Cruiser that turns well i got to give up type X shields and use Type V ones with lower Type weapons loadouts. this would balance up large scale pvp combat. here are some other things that need a looked at, example...

(C)ruiser vs Cruiser ---pretty equal more in the hands of pilot
Cruiser vs(E)scort---C vs E, C wins 65-75% C vs E x's 2 odds flop C unlikely to win
Cruiser vs (BoP)---C vs BoP C wins 90%, C vs BoP x 3 or more odds flop C unlikely to win
(S)cience ships play rolls of well science ships factoring them in to all this easy
i have more detail but i tried to trim it down to bare min. best i can but this should be looked into

i have more detail'd info on this if need'd now with that said...
this idea for rebalance would be carried over to pvp by lets say...a mission comes up for recon or a smash and grab rescue mission a big heavy low turn cruiser is not need'd or even allowed in this mission u go to ur dock and grab one of ur BoP (K) or escort (F) and lauch, in a different mission u need to keep a few squads of BoP's distracted while your AI esscort or Human wingman (only allowed in BoP(K) or Escort) to run the blockade beam out target and haul it out. Its just not right to fly around a Small ship and take out those large ships in pvp or pve think back to the Show DS9 one of the final fleet battle sceens where u had the Large Vorcha's flying in with the little bop's on her flanks skirmishing about, another exp. of how this idea would had a new depth to game play would be the Cruiser punching a hole in 1 of the shields of a large boss type ship and ur buds or an AI following u cloaked uses there speed and turn to keep hitting that shield while the big Cruiser had time to come about and put its heavier weapons on target....more to come later

<S>
Nightraven
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Silly Idea Sorry.

    Really role a Klingon... go and play a BOP.

    Write back when you get to BG and have played for a few days.

    The BOP Has less shields, the BOP has the lowest Hull numbers in the game.

    Trust me a well played cruiser DOES NOT go down to one BOP.

    If I make the right move, sure I can sometimes take out a well piloted cruiser pretty quick. Mostly a well piloted cruiser is going to eat me. lol

    Trust me the BOP is very well balanced as is right now. My guess is if you are dieing in what seems like one pass perhaps you should look at your log and notice you died in one pass from multiple ships. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010

    there needs to be some sort of rebalance, i have Cap'd toons on both sides and am sad to see it when 1 bob almost 1 shots a Cruiser or what STO calls cruisers, NO single BoP should be able to take out a cruiser alone bop's are OP badly

    ...

    (C)ruiser vs Cruiser ---pretty equal more in the hands of pilot
    Cruiser vs(E)scort---C vs E, C wins 65-75% C vs E x's 2 odds flop C unlikely to win
    Cruiser vs (BoP)---C vs BoP C wins 90%, C vs BoP x 3 or more odds flop C unlikely to win
    (S)cience ships play rolls of well science ships factoring them in to all this easy
    i have more detail but i tried to trim it down to bare min. best i can but this should be looked into

    While I disagree with your post as a whole, these are the parts I take most issue with. No single BoP should be able to take out a Cruiser and indeed a BoP can't. When you see something like that happen it boils down to a little bit of luck but mostly the vastly different skill levels of the pilots of those ships. As for your percent chance of victory breakdowns they look great and reasonable on paper but in practice they can't possibly work. If, for simplicity sake, you ignore player skill (which you can't as it is the single most important factor) then all a team would have to do to win is bring a couple of Cruisers.

    Husanak covered it all pretty well. On a side note, I'm growing weary of people who preface their posts with "I've played boths sides" and then move on to make claims that simply don't hold true. It's tantamount to me offering some chick free breast exams and a "trust me, I'm a doctor."

    Furthermore, I really like that word "tantamount". I've been trying to use it in a sentence for some time now which might be why it seems to forced here. I just had to let it out. Tantamount. Tantamount. Tantamount. Thank you. ^^
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    You need to stop hanging out with crappy cruiser captains then

    or give them some pointers on how to get better at being a cruiser captain.

    It'll only make pvp better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    SteveHale wrote: »
    It's tantamount to me offering some chick free breast exams and a "trust me, I'm a doctor."

    This'll work after enough tequila shots. :p



    but you may want to use some purell afterwards....................
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    hmm it seems none of u know anything bout me i have max'd toons on both sides tac, sci and eng i know what im talking bout and i put a post up for peeps to add imput bout my post not bout shoots and what what im saying is...if u want to load a LITTLE bop carry weapons made for a large ship then u need to give up turn or what type of shields u can carry re-read what im saying and then add your reply, and let me be more clear a bit more at ADM. and BG ranks some one flying a AC fed side gets attacked by a 1BoP, who wins?? in the Trek Unimverse.....the cruiser fires a spread and what happens to the little bop?? now put that fed AC against 5+bop's what happens?
    first fight ..AC kills Bop with min. effort
    second fight 5+Bop overwhelm the fed AC and take losses but wins
    take your self out of your own world and look at the lore and trek history

    now Husanak
    how many times have u seen 1 bop taking a pounding from 3 or more fed ships and it just keeps going
    again IF u want your little bop to carrie type 10 heavy weapons x's 4 (a bop's warp core cant power that) but what ever, then u can only equip. type 5 or 6 shields or impules and that would force u to give up turn and stand off strength none of u r looking at the ships load cap. ive been in the trek gaming world for 20years and worked for Taldren on SFC3 so i have an inside lane on a few peeps
    ty for replying but your missing the point

    ps
    Im day 1 beta hour 1 launch
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I wasn't missing your point. Your just not right. ;)

    I understand the point your making but the BOP is not a Shuttlecraft... that is not cannon. Sorry.

    The BOP can fend off multiple feds. Sure its true I do it all the time. lol
    I do give up to do it.

    The BOP has univeral stations... I can run 4 Eng or 4 sci or 2 eng and 2 sci and LIVE ALL day long. Good luck killing me, of course I gave up all tactical options to do it...
    so after circling you unable to kill you for an hour you will get me when my arm gives out and I put the mouse down.

    OR I could run 4 tactical officers and die in 2 seconds.

    The point your missing... is a good team SMOKES me and every other bop quickly.

    The best FED PvP players are insanely hard to beat for klingons.

    When we do we use Guile... and stradagy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Here is some info for ya from wiki

    The Bird of Prey is one of the most common Klingon ships seen in the Star Trek franchise. First introduced in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, the Bird of Prey has featured in five of the films and frequently appears in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Industrial Light & Magic designed and built the Bird of Prey for Star Trek III, assisted by the film's director, Leonard Nimoy. In early drafts of the script, the Bird of Prey was to be a Romulan vessel; although this idea was later dropped, the Bird of Prey maintained its cloaking device as a plot point in the film and the Romulan bird feather patterns on its wings were kept. The Bird of Prey is the first Klingon vessel depicted with a cloaking device; all classes chronologically later in the series would also use a cloaking device. The wings of the Bird of Prey are able to move, lowering to attack, maintaining just above horizontal in flight mode and raising high when the ship lands. However, as the studio model's mechanism for moving the wings broke, in later Star Trek series' episodes the wings are usually fixed in either flight mode or attack mode. This was not rectified until the creation of a CGI model for the vessel. The studio models for the Bird of Prey were sold in the 2006 Christie's auction; the original model sold for US$307,200,[5] while an enlarged wing, used for close-up shots in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, was sold for US$8,400.[6]
    Although several variants are seen throughout the franchise, design notes state that the Bird of Prey has two main classes: the B'rel-class and the K'Vort-class. Both classes used the same studio model, differing in sizes in proportion to other starships depending on variant. The B'rel-class is a scout vessel, used for espionage, skirmishes and raids, while the K'Vort-class is a light cruiser. Both classes are armed with disruptor cannons mounted on the tips of the wings and a forward torpedo launcher, although the K'Vort-class possesses an extra two ship-mounted disruptor banks and a second torpedo launcher. Likewise, both classes are equipped with cloaking devices and are capable of impulse and warp speeds. With a crew of only 12 and a length of 160 meters, the B'rel-class is far smaller than the K'Vort-class, which measures 320 meters and possesses a crew of 300+. The interior of the Bird of Prey is similar to that of Douglas Trumbull's submarine-like designs for the K't'inga-class; some Birds of Prey are even shown with periscopes to allow the captain to personally target weapons. Despite relatively light armaments, Birds of Prey are shown to be effective craft; both the USS Enterprise and USS Enterprise-D are destroyed in part due to the activity of a Bird of Prey.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    your post proves my point and th B'rel is a clasic BoP the K'vort is a step up in class to destroyer or what sto would call a Escort and it your post it says it can only carry light weaps and when enterprise (kirk era) the Bop could fire through its cloak any ship firing weaps on bare hull will cripple that ship, entrprise(picard era) it was a k'vort class vessel, wings down+small bop wings up k'vort or higher i know my classes

    examples of classes there more but..
    FF-Frigate- bop class
    CL-Light Cruiser-destroyer-kvorts and light escorts
    CA-full cruisers-ktingas-stargazers(sto)heavy escorts
    DN-galaxy-vorcha-
    BB-negvar-sovereign
    SBB-SoulWolf(fed)-Bird of Death(kling)
    lots and lots more and for that matter

    KLINGS NEED MORE SHIPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    we mod'd at least 100 for sfc3
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    NightRaven I believe your mathmatics are flawed because it does equate player skill or tactics into the answer.

    I can't one-shot a Cruiser - only a handful of player ingame have that level of pvp skill.

    But I can kill one by myself with a single BoP.
    Does this make me or the BoP over powered or unbalnced - no.

    It means I know how to hit & run well enough to stay alive to kill a cruiser.
    Conversely if said cruiser player is skilled, they could keep me at a stalemate endefinately.

    Your math is flawed and does not take into effect the human skill factor.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Rock, paper, scissors does not equal "balance."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    your right im not putting in player skill, the core post is that a BoP in the Trek world does NOT have the Power Plant to carry what players are putting on there ships
    U cant put a V12 800hp engine on a 12foot Jboat it dont matter how good u are if your ship cant carry the loadout u can be the best player in the would u gonna die now if u bring 4 of your BoP flying friends along then bloodwine for the glory of the kill

    if a BOP wants to carry type 10 cannon weaps then to power them it will have to load a cruiser power plant
    and that means it dosnt have room for type 10 impluse type 10 shield gens, type 10 dish

    u would have to load smaller ones and then u would lose your turn and what type of shields u can carry
    u guys mean well but still missing the point take your self out of it and look at it from a person that loves trek but never play'd a game and only know trek lore
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Tune...what?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    My fake ship can beat your fake ship in the real world! ;):p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Nightraven

    Really your flawed on your view of the current game balance. I think what everyone is saying to you is the game is balanced right now and does not need the kind of tinkering nerf you are talking about.

    Your argument that the bop dosn't have a proper warp drive is silly. My point with the wiki post for you was to show you 2 things.

    1) the bird of prey is the main klingon ship in the Star trek universe and that is the way it is in the gane. The Klingon empire isn't using shuttles as there main workhorse ship. They are also going to fit them with proper warp cores. Not to run replicators and 10 forward... but to run cannons they are Klingon.

    2) The bird of prey has many configs, in the Star trek universe there are small 14 man BOPS like you are saying that would have no chance against a Fed ship... and their are war bird class BOPS that are designed to KILL things.

    Cryptic has been very true to the IP on the bird of prey.... hell look at the weapon load out on the BOP at RA. It matches the cannon details perfectly. 4 cannons and 2 torpedo launchers.

    PS Have you really played a BOP in the game. Cryptic has done what you are suggesting by reducing the amount of shield a bop gets. A covariant cap 2 is around 6k on a BOP... I believe the same shield is ALOT more on a fed cruiser. ;)
    They have also been true to the IP by giving the BOP the weekest hull in the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Husanak wrote: »
    A covariant cap 2 is around 6k on a BOP... I believe the same shield is ALOT more on a fed cruiser. ;)

    Nope it's about 1k stronger, not that much in the scheme of things it equates about 1-2 more seconds the shield will be up against decent damage. A lot of cruiser vessels actually run regenerative shields that are capped around 4-4.5k. The only fed ship with stronger shields than the norm are sci vessels.
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