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Not convinced

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited July 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I read allot of threads on pvp and weather it's unbalanced or if it's simply that star trek's elite is only playing on one side. I'm not saying im great at pvp and I'm sure allot of elitists are going to say that I'm just a bad player and have a crappy ship, or am unexperienced because feds have so much pve content but I have played dozens of pvp match's ending in federation 0 -1 against klingons 15 with damage and healing looking high on both sides, so whats the problem? Maybe the klings are right they have all the elite players and theres not a single decent fed player in the game, simply all the federation players suck; but that doesn't seem very convincing to me. I've seen allot of very good fed players out there that can deal out the damage or support there team as well as the next klingon the only difference is it seems our ships are out classed, fed ships seem all around worse with less turn rate and a lower impulse modifier, some people might think that doesn't make a difference but it does mean less weapons bearing on the enemy and less chance of escaping and in addition federation doesn't have cloak, no ships with universal officer slots and it's cruisers cant mount cannons the only exception being the Galaxy - X dreadnought which has out of combat cloak and can mount cannons but only has a base turn rate of 3 (degrees per second), thats even lower then the far larger klingon carrier.

So I ask the question, is pvp unbalanced because we are simply outclassed?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    There have been federation versus klingon matches where it ended 15-0 in the federation's favor. What happens is that most of the klingon players have played through the game twice, when they make their klingon character they have already reached RA5 on their fed character. You are also forgetting that Klingon ships have less hull as well as useless slots ensign on half of their ships.

    The difference in experience and coordination can be seen in fleets especially where welly coordinated fleets can destroy other fleets on the same empire 15 - 0 likewise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    First I would like to say thank you Miogaruna for your dignified reply and I understand that most klingon players have played through twice and have a wealth of experience but that doesn't mean that fed players don't have multiple RA 5 chars as well and are equally experienced, I do realize that fed ship do have more hull but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in pvp as ships seem to go down in a few seconds of cannon fire regardless of class or amount of hull and personally i would gladly give up the extra hull for more maneuverability, and as for useless ensign slots that seems like a toss up to me as a ensign of any kind has limited uses and both sides end game are stuck with at least one slot on the ship being a ensign only rank, with the exception of the klingon carrier and the klingon bird of prey.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    A lot of the time, the problem is the Science Officer and or Science Ships for Feds. Simply, they are doing their job, or there aren't enough of them. The Science Officer is the only officer that can reliably detect cloaked ships within 10km, and the science ship can to most abilities available for breaking cloak (tractor beam, Charged Particle Burst, Gravity Well and I think Tyken's Rift). Honestly, there are a lot more Science / Science officers who don't use these skills effectively than there are ones that do.

    Pre 1.2, the Fed ball was the way for Feds to survive FvK PvP, but with Scatter volley the way it is now, it's a death sentence during the Alpha Strike. If you haven't been able to interrupt the alpha strike (detecting them and break their cloak), you pretty much need a plan to bug out and them come back around outside of the scatter arc. Remember that a well placed ram by a cruiser can 1-shot a Bird of Prey.

    So no, I don't believe PvP is unbalanced at all from the point of view of game mechanics. The perceived imbalance comes from the difference in experience and teamwork between Klingon and Federation PvPers. If you like FvK PvP, and you feel like you're getting rolled all the time, try and find yourself a good Science player and make friends with them. Even better would be 2 science players; nothing like seeing an entire ball of enemies lose 9k shields on all facings and have their cloaked disabled for 15 seconds
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I'm biased because I only play Klingon...but I must say that most Klingon players are absolutely fantastic - Feds not so much. I certainly die to select Fed players but in general most Feds play carelessly and have no teamwork. Basically the way they play gives me the win. I'm not doing anything special but a lot of Feds are really not cut out for PvP. I can mention specific instances if you like, but trust me - Feds are reeeeeally easy to kill.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The problem is that Feds have a lot of kirks and janeways, and not so many picards and archers. You can't just run into PVP and only worry about yourself, sometimes you need to plan or run away when you are outmatched. Sometimes the tac/esort guys need to toss a heal on the eng/cruiser healer, you need to work as a team.

    Klingons have this ingrained in their playing, BoPs hit and run, other classes use strategy and teamwork, a typical fed escort will sit in a group of five enemies thinking it can burn them all down solo, it's not going to happen.

    I usually only play pre-mades, and so I'm not often steamrolled by klinks, I use a voice chat, call targets, my healers call heals and let us all know when we are on our own for heals due to CDs. Our sci guys call dampening fields and who they are SNB'ing, our eng guys put EPS on escorts, you need to know when to use abilities and who to give them to, and typically most fed players don't realize this, they horde abilities for themselves, and PUG healers very rarely toss out heals, even if they are teamed up with people in the PUG.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The key here is that the average Klingon PvPer is pretty good, while the average Fed PvPer is not. But the good Feds are really good. They make my bottom hurt when I fight them. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Kinjiru wrote: »
    The key here is that the average Klingon PvPer is pretty good, while the average Fed PvPer is not. But the good Feds are really good. They make my bottom hurt when I fight them. :D

    ^ This.

    Ten characters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    The fed ships are not inferior at all. You can't rig one the same as a Klink ship, they are however very effective is used right. One key to klink victory is aggresion, I almost never play my fed anymore... all my friends are klinks.
    I ran a couple matches the other day, we feds still lost. You will also notice how many times I died. (I say I was running with the hey get the trader handicap) Point is though VICTORY FAVORS THE BOLD. Fed pugs almost always lack aggresion. A good fed team will rip a klink to pieces... we all know the best fed players, they are nightmares to play against. (Granted most of them mainly play their klink toons)

    http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7652/gameclient2010070311565.jpg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Fed dont cry , next time Criptyc sell you shiep and officer Klingo and maibe you PVP problems solve . :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Husanak wrote: »
    Point is though VICOTRY FAVORS THE BOLD.

    Is that something like musketry? :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I read allot of threads on pvp and weather it's unbalanced or if it's simply that star trek's elite is only playing on one side. I'm not saying im great at pvp and I'm sure allot of elitists are going to say that I'm just a bad player and have a crappy ship, or am unexperienced because feds have so much pve content but I have played dozens of pvp match's ending in federation 0 -1 against klingons 15 with damage and healing looking high on both sides, so whats the problem? Maybe the klings are right they have all the elite players and theres not a single decent fed player in the game, simply all the federation players suck; but that doesn't seem very convincing to me. I've seen allot of very good fed players out there that can deal out the damage or support there team as well as the next klingon the only difference is it seems our ships are out classed, fed ships seem all around worse with less turn rate and a lower impulse modifier, some people might think that doesn't make a difference but it does mean less weapons bearing on the enemy and less chance of escaping and in addition federation doesn't have cloak, no ships with universal officer slots and it's cruisers cant mount cannons the only exception being the Galaxy - X dreadnought which has out of combat cloak and can mount cannons but only has a base turn rate of 3 (degrees per second), thats even lower then the far larger klingon carrier.

    So I ask the question, is pvp unbalanced because we are simply outclassed?

    I counter your wall of text with my own!

    You got it ok if there is way more and I mean way more feds in game then klingon then that means there is way more bad players you may get in your q. That’s not even calculating all the other aspects like we pvp to level we team we often fight with those we fought with for awhile. And by the way most that are good at pvp are pvp players they play mmos to play pvp and they get the mechanics of it. We build rebuild and always think and work together to test and come up with new builds. This goes to show that the one that strive to be good pvpers will suceed. To tell you the truth like all klingon will tell you if it is a well laid out team that practices and build together they will be hard it will be a close game Fed or not. I also notice on the fed side the good fed players usually will enter a q in teams of five only because they do not want to fight Klingon with a few bad players on their team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    thanks for the feedback it's good to get reasonable suggestions and different views as opposed to flaming, it is true that pugs usually don't do so well especially against a coordinated team and theres some pretty good points across the board from just about everyone; im glade most people took my question for what it was as i really was just curious if anyone knew if the problem was in maneuverability or if cloak and cannons seemed to be the huge issue but it seems like the general consensus is a lack of team work or at least pre-made teams and simply less pvp experience in the federation pool of players; I can accept that, especially if there is a larger number of fed players it could seem like the federation is gimp if you keep getting in games with players that don't support each other or are simply still fairly green to pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Half of all this is attitude I think. It's the same in wow, with the alliance 'kiddies' vs the 'mature' horde pvpers.
    It's simply not the case. Psychologically, just as in wow, many feds will enter a map expecting the Klingons to be better than them, particularly in pugs. That's a defeatist attitude.
    Something I have noticed when playing my Klingon (and I am new to the klingon side) is that Federation tend to be very hesitant, as someone else pointed out above.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Dragosv wrote: »
    Fed dont cry , next time Criptyc sell you shiep and officer Klingo and maibe you PVP problems solve . :D

    What?


    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Speaking of out classed, I always found it amusing (and kind of frustrating) when in my BoP with the superior turning and maneuverability I get in close and then can't turn fast enough to get the opposing Escort back within my forward firing arcs. I only bring it up as another example of players of varied skill levels taking better advantage of the tools they have at their disposal. My ship may be more maneuverable but if I'm up against a better pilot it's not going to make that much of a difference... that's usually when I have to duck out and hope they don't follow, lol.

    We've all seen the difference that Feds greater hulls can potentially make. I sit at around 24k hull while most Escorts are closer to 34k and I can usually unload enough damage to blow myself up but that extra 10k tends to allow them to skate away, pop some defenses, or get some support. When someone gets the drop on me in a well played escort I can be toast no matter how close I am to the group. Those few extra seconds are a pretty fair cloak trade off for cloak, in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    SteveHale wrote: »
    Speaking of out classed, I always found it amusing (and kind of frustrating) when in my BoP with the superior turning and maneuverability I get in close and then can't turn fast enough to get the opposing Escort back within my forward firing arcs.

    Sheee don't tell the feds they can install RCS units. ;)

    Really most bop players (myself included) don't do a ton of stuff to increase their already very good turn. I run a engine with [turn] I don't run a RCS unit. On my fed escort 2x RCS units are much much more valuble then any armour... that with high engine power and the fed escort turns better then a good number of bops.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I have found good and bad teams on both sides. When I started as a KDF I would be invited to team at lower levels and see how the KDF play. (They do not have the Fed-Ball mentality, but you find very few alone.) As I reached BG I did not need the team as I knew my role and those around me - there were many leaders in the group and some strong individuals. (KDF also do a lot of focus firing - working off the lead BoP or Raptor target instructively.) When I played SPvP with my sci RA, it is not so clearly defined. The fed side is a group/mob mentality - which does have strong points - but requires a strong leader where few arise. The only time I find Feds focus fire is when there are one or two KDF. (Next time stand off the Fed Ball with three or more KDF, you will see most KDF focus firing on targets as fed beams go to many targets.)

    Are you always facing the same group of players? Do you click names to see if they are in the same fleet or the ship names have -TRIBBLE- in them?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Originally Posted by Dragosv
    Fed dont cry , next time Criptyc sell you shiep and officer Klingo and maibe you PVP problems solve .
    Cpt_Duck wrote:
    What?


    .

    wait wait! I speak gibberish.

    "Feds don't cry, next time Cryptic will sell you a ship and an officer Klingon and maybe your PvP problems will be solved."

    Or he wants a light decaf, no milk , half-sugar.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    ...it's simply that star trek's elite is only playing on one side...

    When did I get a Klingon character?! :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    wait wait! I speak gibberish.

    "Feds don't cry, next time Cryptic will sell you a ship and an officer Klingon and maybe your PvP problems will be solved."

    Or he wants a light decaf, no milk , half-sugar.

    If I had to bet latinum on it, I'd bet that the proper translation is ... he wants coffee.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    If I had to bet latinum on it, I'd bet that the proper translation is ... he wants coffee.

    And who wouldn't want a hot cup of Jo, after a long day working a U.N. translator.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    BobTheYak wrote:
    I'm biased because I only play Klingon...but I must say that most Klingon players are absolutely fantastic - Feds not so much. I certainly die to select Fed players but in general most Feds play carelessly and have no teamwork. Basically the way they play gives me the win. I'm not doing anything special but a lot of Feds are really not cut out for PvP. I can mention specific instances if you like, but trust me - Feds are reeeeeally easy to kill.

    I agree with Bob, except I'm not a "fantastic" Klink pvp'er.
    I'm average, so when you see me at Commander level pvp - don't be worried.

    Lately though the Feds at lower levels have improved greatly in both tactics and teamwork.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I read allot of threads on pvp and weather it's unbalanced or if it's simply that star trek's elite is only playing on one side. I'm not saying im great at pvp and I'm sure allot of elitists are going to say that I'm just a bad player and have a crappy ship, or am unexperienced because feds have so much pve content but I have played dozens of pvp match's ending in federation 0 -1 against klingons 15 with damage and healing looking high on both sides, so whats the problem? Maybe the klings are right they have all the elite players and theres not a single decent fed player in the game, simply all the federation players suck; but that doesn't seem very convincing to me. I've seen allot of very good fed players out there that can deal out the damage or support there team as well as the next klingon the only difference is it seems our ships are out classed, fed ships seem all around worse with less turn rate and a lower impulse modifier, some people might think that doesn't make a difference but it does mean less weapons bearing on the enemy and less chance of escaping and in addition federation doesn't have cloak, no ships with universal officer slots and it's cruisers cant mount cannons the only exception being the Galaxy - X dreadnought which has out of combat cloak and can mount cannons but only has a base turn rate of 3 (degrees per second), thats even lower then the far larger klingon carrier.

    So I ask the question, is pvp unbalanced because we are simply outclassed?

    Game mechanics I feel are balanced. The tactics however are not (generally speaking). Most days I dread doing my PVP dailies with my fed toons because fed pugs tend to be more disorganized. Generally the Klingon pugs play off each other a bit better. Every so often there are awesome fed groups but I have not been too fortunate in finding them with any consistency. The key to it all is teamwork. Granted the Klingon first strike capability is a good advantage but it is by no means unbeatable. If the fed group works together by healing each other and focus fire, then most times they will shred the Klingon groups. Personally, I feel the issue is in the leveling process itself. The feds grind missions and (at least for me) do it mostly solo. The Klingons in contrast (at least when I leveled mine) do so mostly in a group. You don't need a premade group per se, but just need to play off of each other better and work as a team. Both factions have their ups and downs the illusion of imbalance stems from the differences in the strengths and weaknesses.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    Lately though the Feds at lower levels have improved greatly in both tactics and teamwork.

    Or could be klink rerolls
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    BountyXP wrote: »
    When did I get a Klingon character?! :eek:

    We sent you one via UPS, but we forgot the air holes..........
    sorry.:(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ankah wrote: »
    Or could be klink rerolls

    I really am starting to feel that the Klinks may be too "purposesly" gimped.
    I have a decent (imo) dammage set up on my raptor, but I am coming across more and more escorts that just don't get scratched by my alpha's.
    Makes me wonder if the Dev's have over-comped the Fed's.
    and then the thought leaves and I go back to shooting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ankah wrote: »
    Or could be klink rerolls

    Mmm. Sounds tasty. Some klink rolls might go good with that coffee the OP wants.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    We sent you one via UPS, but we forgot the air holes..........
    sorry.:(

    Ohhhh....so that's what smelled so bad in that box.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    BountyXP wrote: »
    Ohhhh....so that's what smelled so bad in that box.

    Note to self: Always make airholes before closing the box for shipment.
    oh and I should've left a bigger towel for messies in transit, not to mention easier cleanup for situations like this.
    sorry.
    superchum wrote: »
    Mmm. Sounds tasty. Some klink rolls might go good with that coffee the OP wants.

    They go great with wasabi and still have that wonderful Klngon crunchiness!





    and we are officially off-thread-topic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    I really am starting to feel that the Klinks may be too "purposesly" gimped.
    I have a decent (imo) dammage set up on my raptor, but I am coming across more and more escorts that just don't get scratched by my alpha's.
    Makes me wonder if the Dev's have over-comped the Fed's.
    and then the thought leaves and I go back to shooting.

    If they are smart they are buffing their shield resists, or their team mates are. But in PUGs at Commander level, I'm seeing many escort captains getting smoked really quickly. Some Captains are so bad they can't be saved. Trust me, I and others I've played with have tried and if you're not careful they will bleed you dry. Others have worth and get healed and buffed which makes em harder to take down. Just keep looking for the weak links and focus fire. They'll pop. Either that or maybe you just haven't gotten lucky lately. :cool:
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