Tier 4 and Tier 5 pvp see increasing amounts of annoying ******** and insta deaths compared to earlier tiers.
The abilities are all too strong. RA pvp is much more reliant on healing and stacked abiities. Not only do you have more of both but they are proportionally stronger; the ships arent scaling up nearly as much as the abilities.
I was going to write a much longer post but I think that pretty much covers everything.
Just my 2c. I did have fun in my matches tonight; it's just that I enjoyed tier 3 and even tier 4 pvp mechanics quite a bit more.
I don't mean one shots, just the extreme rapidity of destruction owing to the sheer firepower being thrown around. Ramming Speed is pretty much the same in tier 5 as it is in tier 4.
so essentially your saying that the opponents ability to team up and focus fire you is OP?
YES!!
but your not the first one to find out. There have been many Threads about teamwork now. How it is OP and so on. But how do you really wanna nerf it?
Here some suggestions:
1) disallow teaming, its the first step to teamwork.
2) no chat. also forbid 3. party chat hax programs like vent.
3) ditch stacking altogether.
4) make all heals selfheals.
5) when shooting at someone, you get teleported into a safe 1 vs 1 environment that balances out differences in player skill.
plz cryptik do it!
The problem with focus fire is that it makes certain balance and gameplay aspects difficult.
If it would take 5 ships, say, 30 seconds to destroy a single ship, then how long would it take 1 ship to kill it?
If there is no concern about healing, resistance and assymetric abiltiies, this would be an easy answer, let's call 150 seconds the lower limit. 150 seconds for one fight seem a little... excessive.
But, if it takes 5 ships only 5 seconds to destroy a single ship, how good need yours and your allies reflexes to be? How do you handle a situation where you haven't yet formed your team and are still alone? You're basically "auto-dead" and you might return to that state quickly. Once your team lost the first battle, you might not be able to recover at all.
Focus Fire in real life is not that effective. 5 Soldiers can empty all their ammo clips into a Leopard 2 tank, and they won't destroy it. But they might put so much stress on its crew that it's making mistakes. If 5 policeman shoot at a gangster, he's most likely just as dead as when one would do it. If 5 gangsters and 5 policeman shoot at each other, it's better if each policeman keeps firing at his own target to keep the gangster down. Add a 6th ganster or policeman that is unnoticed by the rest, and things would get very ugly for the other side.
But that's not what STO models. STO uses hit points for its shields and hull, which is pretty much "canon", e.g. that's how Startrek combat looks like. Shields fall after repeated hits, there are no single deadly hits to your arteries or lungs or heart or brain. And there, focus fire is highly benefitial and there is no concept of "supressive fire". But that means there are certain challenges to making a good PvP gameplay. You most likely will need some "cheat" options that does not reward focus fire in some scenarios. RSP does that, 100 % shield resistance does that. But they are flawed from a gameplay perspective, since they are absolute and don't just discourage focus fire -they discourage all fire. And this can easily make these options OP in 1 on 1 scenarios, while it's actually fine against focus fire.
I don't think that it's all that terrible in 1.2. But I think it can be improved, if one keeps the above in mind and denies abilities in a way to specifcally address some concerns. Not everything can or should be fixed with a fundamental mechanical change.
The problem with focus fire is that it makes certain balance and gameplay aspects difficult.
If it would take 5 ships, say, 30 seconds to destroy a single ship, then how long would it take 1 ship to kill it?
If there is no concern about healing, resistance and assymetric abiltiies, this would be an easy answer, let's call 150 seconds the lower limit. 150 seconds for one fight seem a little... excessive.
But, if it takes 5 ships only 5 seconds to destroy a single ship, how good need yours and your allies reflexes to be? How do you handle a situation where you haven't yet formed your team and are still alone? You're basically "auto-dead" and you might return to that state quickly. Once your team lost the first battle, you might not be able to recover at all.
Focus Fire in real life is not that effective. 5 Soldiers can empty all their ammo clips into a Leopard 2 tank, and they won't destroy it. But they might put so much stress on its crew that it's making mistakes. If 5 policeman shoot at a gangster, he's most likely just as dead as when one would do it. If 5 gangsters and 5 policeman shoot at each other, it's better if each policeman keeps firing at his own target to keep the gangster down. Add a 6th ganster or policeman that is unnoticed by the rest, and things would get very ugly for the other side.
But that's not what STO models. STO uses hit points for its shields and hull, which is pretty much "canon", e.g. that's how Startrek combat looks like. Shields fall after repeated hits, there are no single deadly hits to your arteries or lungs or heart or brain. And there, focus fire is highly benefitial and there is no concept of "supressive fire". But that means there are certain challenges to making a good PvP gameplay. You most likely will need some "cheat" options that does not reward focus fire in some scenarios. RSP does that, 100 % shield resistance does that. But they are flawed from a gameplay perspective, since they are absolute and don't just discourage focus fire -they discourage all fire. And this can easily make these options OP in 1 on 1 scenarios, while it's actually fine against focus fire.
I don't think that it's all that terrible in 1.2. But I think it can be improved, if one keeps the above in mind and denies abilities in a way to specifcally address some concerns. Not everything can or should be fixed with a fundamental mechanical change.
Does Fire on my Mark, Sensor Scan, AP Beta stack together?
DMG boost buffs has diminishing? DMG resistance debuffs has diminishing?
Tier 4 and Tier 5 pvp see increasing amounts of annoying ******** and insta deaths compared to earlier tiers.
The abilities are all too strong. RA pvp is much more reliant on healing and stacked abiities. Not only do you have more of both but they are proportionally stronger; the ships arent scaling up nearly as much as the abilities.
I was going to write a much longer post but I think that pretty much covers everything.
Just my 2c. I did have fun in my matches tonight; it's just that I enjoyed tier 3 and even tier 4 pvp mechanics quite a bit more.
Up until the latest patch I always thought that while some skill was involved, victory or defeat usually had more to do with who had the twichier fingers. Since the patch, you still have to be able to react more quickly but bolstered defenses and lower dps has increased the chances that we'll survive. It's also more important than ever that you use the skills available to you more wisely, rather than spamming any and everything.
You have to remember too that some of the people in tier 5 have been there for quite a while and most have been doing this everyday. I'm glad you had fun and hope you don't take some of the insta-ganking too hard. It definitely takes some time to get accustomed to ... the speed ... of Tier 5 game play.
Focus fire is not any different in tier 5 than it is in tier 3/4. There's a lot more premades in tier 5 than in earlier tiers, but the premades dont have any more firepower than pickups. (Unless they are all using bugged scatter volley, which I did see a couple times.) Main difference with premades is more ramming and more knocking down RSP with subnucleonic beam. And they are far better at team support. Any group of idiots can pick a target and shoot at it....
The median skill levels of pick ups is pretty TRIBBLE in tier5, which was annoying. I guess there's a lot of people who have waited until RA to start PVPing?
Thinking about premades does raise a point: the greater abilities focus of tier 5 is advantageous to coordinated groups, since they will be more able to take advantage of team abilities. If this doesnt make sense to you, contrast tier 5 with tier 1; the piddling abilities you have available in tier 1 make coordination beyond the level of focus fire rather pointless.
Tier 4 and Tier 5 pvp see increasing amounts of annoying ******** and insta deaths compared to earlier tiers.
The abilities are all too strong. RA pvp is much more reliant on healing and stacked abiities. Not only do you have more of both but they are proportionally stronger; the ships arent scaling up nearly as much as the abilities.
I was going to write a much longer post but I think that pretty much covers everything.
Just my 2c. I did have fun in my matches tonight; it's just that I enjoyed tier 3 and even tier 4 pvp mechanics quite a bit more.
All of pvp relies on the stacking of abilities, especially if you plan to be the dammage dealer on your team or fly an escort. Stacking tactical buffs (like APA+CSV2) is the bread and butter of being an escort, even in T3-T4. The only difference is you have less abilities in the lower tiers to use, so teamwork and communication is key.
Funny enough, I've said in the past that alot of the OP powers that have been discussed on the forums, may be only problematic in the RA range.
Well 1.2 Started out good... PVP matches had gone from 10 minutes max to 30 minutes max until everyone figured out what builds work now. Now it seems we are back to the 10 minute matches.
Well 1.2 Started out good... PVP matches had gone from 10 minutes max to 30 minutes max until everyone figured out what builds work now. Now it seems we are back to the 10 minute matches.
The difference is, that before you were killed with star trek weapons, now you are killed by unstartrekish ram.
Well 1.2 Started out good... PVP matches had gone from 10 minutes max to 30 minutes max until everyone figured out what builds work now. Now it seems we are back to the 10 minute matches.
There was-is nothing wrong with 1.2 or PvP.
The reason matches have gotten shorter again is because those players who do alot of pvp have readjusted thier game to maximize thier effect again in pvp. This has always been the case, regardless of how many nerfs come down the line. The good continue to get better and the bad continue to fall behind.
Cryptic can not balance the game to make a bad player better.
Though I will continue to say that RAM should destroy both vessels, regardless.
5 rams on the same target is probably always going to be overpowered, no matter what they do.
If the skil lwas usable only below 25% hull strenght, there would be no "alpha" ram-gank. The only defense agains it atm is to have tractor repulsors ready.
5 rams on the same target is probably always going to be overpowered, no matter what they do.
It's easily counterable if they telegraph it too much. If you see 5 ships making a beeline toward yours with purple tetrahedral outlines around them...
Drop some mines about a second before impact. Nothing beats ramming a chroniton.
Photonic shockwave. It's so effective you can hear it on Vent - usually sounds like "**** THAT GUY".
Evasive maneuvers. You know, to evade those 5 fatty battering rams coming your way.
Scramble sensors. Mass ramming is a friendly fire traffic jam waiting to happen.
Edit: As mentioned in the post above mine, TBR is also good. It gives people that wheels-stuck-in-mud feeling.
Burst damage is still very high, crits especially. Sorry but hitting someone with a single quantum torpedo for nearly 25k damage... yeah its not fun for them or me. Honestly I've seen some pretty ridiculous things in 1.2, the same problems with super fast deaths are still around just in slightly different flavors. Granted, a lot of it can be mitigated by better reactions on the defensive side, but that also requires stacking defensive buffs.
But its not just tacs with APA, my eng/escort has obliterated people, even cruisers with one application of scatter volley 3 (yes I know its bugged), APB 2, and a torpedo strike. Meanwhile, science ships piddle around with no real damage capability and mediocre defensive abilities, and highly situational control abilities.
Its definitely better than it was before, but still, there is some adjustment that should happen.
It's easily counterable if they telegraph it too much. If you see 5 ships making a beeline toward yours with purple tetrahedral outlines around them...
Drop some mines about a second before impact. Nothing beats ramming a chroniton.
Photonic shockwave. It's so effective you can hear it on Vent - usually sounds like "**** THAT GUY".
Evasive maneuvers. You know, to evade those 5 fatty battering rams coming your way.
Scramble sensors. Mass ramming is a friendly fire traffic jam waiting to happen.
Edit: As mentioned in the post above mine, TBR is also good. It gives people that wheels-stuck-in-mud feeling.
Just to point out, but photonic shockwave and tractor beam repulsors are completley negated by aux to dampners, so they won't stop a ram if your rammer is smart.
Up until the latest patch I always thought that while some skill was involved, victory or defeat usually had more to do with who had the twichier fingers. Since the patch, you still have to be able to react more quickly but bolstered defenses and lower dps has increased the chances that we'll survive. It's also more important than ever that you use the skills available to you more wisely, rather than spamming any and everything.
You have to remember too that some of the people in tier 5 have been there for quite a while and most have been doing this everyday. I'm glad you had fun and hope you don't take some of the insta-ganking too hard. It definitely takes some time to get accustomed to ... the speed ... of Tier 5 game play.
This is bang on.
I have had ships "insta pop" for me pretty regular. However I have played against a Growing number that understand the counters and bang them off. It is great fun to get into a nice long battle of point counterpoint.
The real trick is understanding what your are most likely going to run up against, and then carry the proper counters. The relex to use the right counter at the right time = wicked battles.
Just to point out, but photonic shockwave and tractor beam repulsors are completley negated by aux to dampners, so they won't stop a ram if your rammer is smart.
Yep, but many professional "rammers" use the lt slots for the green blob...luckily.
Does Fire on my Mark, Sensor Scan, AP Beta stack together?
DMG boost buffs has diminishing? DMG resistance debuffs has diminishing?
AP Beta from different players stack. I am actually not sure about the the other ones.
But that brings out a good additional "tweaking" option - avoid stacking of damage debuffs from different players. You are already "rewarded" by dealing more damage than a single ship should normally be able to handle if you combine fire, is there a need for an extra reward?
The day I get this serious about an internet spaceship game is the day I turn on my computer for the last time. BECAUSE THAT'S THE DAY SKYNET GOES LIVE!
Comments
YES!!
but your not the first one to find out. There have been many Threads about teamwork now. How it is OP and so on. But how do you really wanna nerf it?
Here some suggestions:
1) disallow teaming, its the first step to teamwork.
2) no chat. also forbid 3. party chat hax programs like vent.
3) ditch stacking altogether.
4) make all heals selfheals.
5) when shooting at someone, you get teleported into a safe 1 vs 1 environment that balances out differences in player skill.
plz cryptik do it!
If it would take 5 ships, say, 30 seconds to destroy a single ship, then how long would it take 1 ship to kill it?
If there is no concern about healing, resistance and assymetric abiltiies, this would be an easy answer, let's call 150 seconds the lower limit. 150 seconds for one fight seem a little... excessive.
But, if it takes 5 ships only 5 seconds to destroy a single ship, how good need yours and your allies reflexes to be? How do you handle a situation where you haven't yet formed your team and are still alone? You're basically "auto-dead" and you might return to that state quickly. Once your team lost the first battle, you might not be able to recover at all.
Focus Fire in real life is not that effective. 5 Soldiers can empty all their ammo clips into a Leopard 2 tank, and they won't destroy it. But they might put so much stress on its crew that it's making mistakes. If 5 policeman shoot at a gangster, he's most likely just as dead as when one would do it. If 5 gangsters and 5 policeman shoot at each other, it's better if each policeman keeps firing at his own target to keep the gangster down. Add a 6th ganster or policeman that is unnoticed by the rest, and things would get very ugly for the other side.
But that's not what STO models. STO uses hit points for its shields and hull, which is pretty much "canon", e.g. that's how Startrek combat looks like. Shields fall after repeated hits, there are no single deadly hits to your arteries or lungs or heart or brain. And there, focus fire is highly benefitial and there is no concept of "supressive fire". But that means there are certain challenges to making a good PvP gameplay. You most likely will need some "cheat" options that does not reward focus fire in some scenarios. RSP does that, 100 % shield resistance does that. But they are flawed from a gameplay perspective, since they are absolute and don't just discourage focus fire -they discourage all fire. And this can easily make these options OP in 1 on 1 scenarios, while it's actually fine against focus fire.
I don't think that it's all that terrible in 1.2. But I think it can be improved, if one keeps the above in mind and denies abilities in a way to specifcally address some concerns. Not everything can or should be fixed with a fundamental mechanical change.
Does Fire on my Mark, Sensor Scan, AP Beta stack together?
DMG boost buffs has diminishing? DMG resistance debuffs has diminishing?
Ships are fine.
Abilities are fine.
Nothing is overpowered. Its just in your head.
Play more and learn from it.
You have to remember too that some of the people in tier 5 have been there for quite a while and most have been doing this everyday. I'm glad you had fun and hope you don't take some of the insta-ganking too hard. It definitely takes some time to get accustomed to ... the speed ... of Tier 5 game play.
The median skill levels of pick ups is pretty TRIBBLE in tier5, which was annoying. I guess there's a lot of people who have waited until RA to start PVPing?
Thinking about premades does raise a point: the greater abilities focus of tier 5 is advantageous to coordinated groups, since they will be more able to take advantage of team abilities. If this doesnt make sense to you, contrast tier 5 with tier 1; the piddling abilities you have available in tier 1 make coordination beyond the level of focus fire rather pointless.
Needs more snarky, pointless, waste of space that could better be used by someone wanting to contribute. Here, I'll help!
Waste +1!
All of pvp relies on the stacking of abilities, especially if you plan to be the dammage dealer on your team or fly an escort. Stacking tactical buffs (like APA+CSV2) is the bread and butter of being an escort, even in T3-T4. The only difference is you have less abilities in the lower tiers to use, so teamwork and communication is key.
Funny enough, I've said in the past that alot of the OP powers that have been discussed on the forums, may be only problematic in the RA range.
just recombobulate the phase variance
The difference is, that before you were killed with star trek weapons, now you are killed by unstartrekish ram.
There was-is nothing wrong with 1.2 or PvP.
The reason matches have gotten shorter again is because those players who do alot of pvp have readjusted thier game to maximize thier effect again in pvp. This has always been the case, regardless of how many nerfs come down the line. The good continue to get better and the bad continue to fall behind.
Cryptic can not balance the game to make a bad player better.
Though I will continue to say that RAM should destroy both vessels, regardless.
ramming was popular way before 1.2
As a finisher yes, but not as 5 coordinated rams in row
If the skil lwas usable only below 25% hull strenght, there would be no "alpha" ram-gank. The only defense agains it atm is to have tractor repulsors ready.
It's easily counterable if they telegraph it too much. If you see 5 ships making a beeline toward yours with purple tetrahedral outlines around them...
- Drop some mines about a second before impact. Nothing beats ramming a chroniton.
- Photonic shockwave. It's so effective you can hear it on Vent - usually sounds like "**** THAT GUY".
- Evasive maneuvers. You know, to evade those 5 fatty battering rams coming your way.
- Scramble sensors. Mass ramming is a friendly fire traffic jam waiting to happen.
Edit: As mentioned in the post above mine, TBR is also good. It gives people that wheels-stuck-in-mud feeling.But its not just tacs with APA, my eng/escort has obliterated people, even cruisers with one application of scatter volley 3 (yes I know its bugged), APB 2, and a torpedo strike. Meanwhile, science ships piddle around with no real damage capability and mediocre defensive abilities, and highly situational control abilities.
Its definitely better than it was before, but still, there is some adjustment that should happen.
Just to point out, but photonic shockwave and tractor beam repulsors are completley negated by aux to dampners, so they won't stop a ram if your rammer is smart.
This is bang on.
I have had ships "insta pop" for me pretty regular. However I have played against a Growing number that understand the counters and bang them off. It is great fun to get into a nice long battle of point counterpoint.
The real trick is understanding what your are most likely going to run up against, and then carry the proper counters. The relex to use the right counter at the right time = wicked battles.
Yep, but many professional "rammers" use the lt slots for the green blob...luckily.
I mean, ram probably needs SOME change. I would make Defense a defense against it. But really. that's not an RA issue.
But that brings out a good additional "tweaking" option - avoid stacking of damage debuffs from different players. You are already "rewarded" by dealing more damage than a single ship should normally be able to handle if you combine fire, is there a need for an extra reward?
Had to fix that for you.
Come with me if you want to live John Conner!