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Ground PvP Myths Exposed

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Klingons are OP/Have better weapons, armor and shields

Yes, I have heard this. Quite a few times, actually. Fact: the ground game is the most balanced aspect of STO. Both factions have access to the same exact gear whether you farm it, buy it off the exchange or use medals, badges, marks, etc. The only exception is that Klingons can get a green bat'leth (this, obviously, is minor but should be fixed none-the-less: make bat'leths part of the Otha loot table or have them as rewards for feds).

"Midgets" are OP/Run faster/Are Harder to Target/Are Griefers/Are not canon

Most of the time, "midget hate" is just general misdirected rage by someone who just got their butt kicked. However, people do try to level specific charges against our height impaired friends. Midgets do not run faster but yes, the animation for their little legs does move quicker. Using tab to target solves any targeting issues. Short species are canon as well (a glass of tranya, anyone?). And no, players do not create midgets to grief. Usually they do it because it's funny.

Most likely, if you are being run down, whether it's by a midget or not, it just means the other player is faster at spamming the shift key and/or has an ability to slow you down.

Tac/Sci/Eng are OP

Actually, I never hear this in reference to the ground game. Again, like it or not, the ground game is the most balanced aspect of STO. And it's not rock, paper, scissors, either. Any class can beat any class in a 1v1 with the right kit and tactics.

Too many holds, roots, slows, etc

Perhaps the most common complaint about the ground game even though abilities like this are a staple in every MMO. Yes, it sucks but you can counter it and/or live through it by using hypos, shield charges and power cells or, god forbid, playing as a team and utilizing a healer. In a 1v1, these types of abilities, when timed and executed correctly, can be a deciding factor but in no way do they guarantee victory. More often than not, when someone rages about being held, they neglect to mention the other part of the equation... they found themselves out in the open, alone and focus fired upon by 5 enemies. Held or not, you would've died anyway.

It's all about gear

Yes, gear matters. But gear is also overrated. Should you go out and get the best gear possible for your ground toon? Yes. But the difference between a green and blue sniper rifle is very small - in reality, we are looking at one extra bonus enhancement which procs, at best, 5% of the time. Usually these complaints are based on lack of knowledge. For example, at LT I had a guy zone rage about my "OP rifle" because I vaporized two exposed players at once. I was using a white split beam.

The most important factor in gear is the choice you make when picking what to use. You should be using the right kind of gear for the class and kit that you chose. An example of someone choosing poorly would be a tac with a close combat kit using dual pistols or a stun gun. If you are not sure what to use, ask your fleet, ask the guy who just gave you a dirtnap or post a thread in this forum.

Expose/Exploit is cheap

You can do everything right in a battle and still lose by getting vaporized. Think of it as an "act of God" if it helps you sleep. Fact is that it's part of the game. Another fact is that by RA/BG, an exploit shot will not always kill you. Could it be removed from the game? Sure. But trust me - the way this game is designed, the expose/exploit system is the ultimate balancing factor. Good luck killing a dedicated healer without it. If they removed it, there would have to be major balancing changes to every class or else some fights would just go on forever.

Matches go on too long/Teams are not balanced

In what way is this ground specific? Do these things not happen in space? 'Nuff said.

Feds/Klingons suck at ground and always lose

Yes, I have heard this on both sides. Klinks who think feds always lose and vice versa. I have played both sides enough to know that this is not something you can generalize about. There are good players on both sides. Both sides are capable of running the table in their bracket all night long or losing over and over. Both sides are also capable of whining, crying and flaming. In a pug situation, which the vast majority of matches are, it only takes one or two skilled players on one side to tip the scales in favor of their team.

I'm spec'ed for space and cannot compete in ground

I think most players that say this really haven't tried or only played a few ground games and gave up. Of course these players are going to have a difficult time... most likely they are fumbling with their buttons and aren't even sure what their kits are capable of in PvP. Ground PvE does little to prepare you for ground PvP.

You can build a character that can be very effective both in both space and ground. It's not rocket science, people. Yes, you will have to make tough decisions where you put your points and your character will be narrowly focused on only specific kit/BOF abilities. You could also make yourself another toon for ground if you just have to min/max... it's not like leveling up to RA/BG takes that long in STO compared to other MMOs. And if you are a min/max type of player, it should be a cakewalk.

Or you could even try queuing your dedicated spacer for ground. The other night I was on a team of 4 ground spec players. We accidentally queued for cracked at LTC. Mind you, none of us had much, if any, points allocated to space and we all had hilariously under geared ships. Guess what? We won. 15-14. Oh... and we were on the Fed side, too. :)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I will go along with all this except one point - "And no, players do not create midgets to grief. Usually they do it because it's funny."

    b.s. It is being done because they are easier to overlook (not being a height joke...) and harder to target than "normal" sized characters.

    Now, I do not particularly care. If someone wants to make a midget character - fine by me. They do die just the same when you hit them.

    Of course, would be interesting to introduce a 'size' penalty. - ie - cannot use ba'hs....or perhaps get a strength bonus if you are over a certain size, debuff if you are a midget. I would be willing to bet the midge syndrome goes away about then!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    RStoney wrote: »
    b.s. It is being done because they are easier to overlook (not being a height joke...) and harder to target than "normal" sized characters.
    You know, I'm not convinced midget characters give any advantage at all. Does it even change hitbox size?

    The only time I've had trouble targeting someone in ground is when there's an engineer deployable anywhere within 30 feet of them. I don't think height's ever been a deciding factor.
    Too many holds, roots, slows, etc
    Matches go on too long/Teams are not balanced
    I'd say these are absolutely matters of opinion? I mean, I don't think it's controversial to say ground has more holds/knockback effects and that they're generally easier to access. And 40 kills can be a longer, more frustrating experience while outnumbered on the ground due to queue suckage, in my experience. Especially if the game thinks sticking you with a 5v1 is just hilarious.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Quote from a recent match: "That invisible TRIBBLE is not cool."

    I'd like to add that there is a SCIENCE skill called "Neural Neutralizer" that can be used as an AoE placate, and the animation is a quick blue supernova with a whoosh sound. If you are hit with this, then you will not be able to see the science officer for up to 15 seconds. The science guy will be invisible to you but he will still be able to attack you. This is NOT a hack or a "cloak" that only Klingons have! ALL science officers have the skill from Lieutenant Commander 5 and higher. It's all part of the fun mind games that science players use. I REPEAT WE ARE NOT CLOAKING!!!

    You can see me using Neural Neutralizer in the first ten seconds of this video, it is the blue supernova: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-kJYpBzViQ

    Neural Neutralizer is countered by Biofilter Sweep, Melorazine, or placate resistances that you might have chosen at character creation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Good post. My own experience is that ground PvP is extremely well balanced. I've had a good mix of getting my TRIBBLE whooped as a Fed, doing the whooping as a Fed, getting my TRIBBLE whooped as a Klingon and doing the whooping as a Klingon, with several matches that are close run things thrown in as well.

    Oh, and as for that comment about 'invisible TRIBBLE', as well as 'Neural Neutralizer', there is a skill (forget its name) that does act as a personal cloak, but this is available from Kits for both Fed and Klingon Tactical Captains. So, again, balanced.

    EDIT:Oh, and i should point out that, like the ship cloak, you cannot fire whilst using it - you have to 'decloak' first. Unlike the ship cloak, though, you do not have a damage boost for a short spell after you turn it off.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Zmidponk wrote:
    Good post. My own experience is that ground PvP is extremely well balanced. I've had a good mix of getting my TRIBBLE whooped as a Fed, doing the whooping as a Fed, getting my TRIBBLE whooped as a Klingon and doing the whooping as a Klingon, with several matches that are close run things thrown in as well.

    Oh, and as for that comment about 'invisible TRIBBLE', as well as 'Neural Neutralizer', there is a skill (forget its name) that does act as a personal cloak, but this is available from Kits for both Fed and Klingon Tactical Captains. So, again, balanced.

    EDIT:Oh, and i should point out that, like the ship cloak, you cannot fire whilst using it - you have to 'decloak'[ first. Unlike the ship cloak, though, you do not have a damage boost for a sgort spell after you turn it off.

    Yes, this is what happens. Complete and utter discrimination against Klingon ground PvP'ers peppered with false accusations. As soon as a Klingon tactical uses Stealth Module, the Fed yells "OMG CLOAK HAX, Klingons so OP!" Whenever I use Neural Neutralizer on my Science, Fed yells "OMG H4X!!! That is a tactical kit on a science guy!"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    RStoney wrote: »
    I will go along with all this except one point - "And no, players do not create midgets to grief. Usually they do it because it's funny."

    b.s. It is being done because they are easier to overlook (not being a height joke...) and harder to target than "normal" sized characters.

    Now, I do not particularly care. If someone wants to make a midget character - fine by me. They do die just the same when you hit them.

    Of course, would be interesting to introduce a 'size' penalty. - ie - cannot use ba'hs....or perhaps get a strength bonus if you are over a certain size, debuff if you are a midget. I would be willing to bet the midge syndrome goes away about then!
    I agree with this. I like most of the points in the OP, but midgets are a pet peeve. The main reason people play tiny characters is that they are harder to target.

    It's not impossible to target the midgets, just harder. Tab targeting can often select them, but anyone who has tried tab-targeting in this game knows that it becomes exceedingly unreliable when there are more than two targets in sight. Very often you just end up selecting the same two deployables, security officers, etc. over and over. STO is not like other games where tab will eventually cycle you through all targets, it usually just keeps selecting the same 2 or 3.

    Honestly I wouldn't be bothered by the midgets if they weren't so common. It's the number of midgets in the game that is non-canon. The Klingon Empire is not dominated by 3-foot tall 45 pound warriors. A few wouldn't be a problem, but they are more common than ordinary-sized warriors, so I really think midget-privleges need to be revoked. You can't play midgets responsibly, so they need to be gone from the game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Klingons are OP/Have better weapons, armor and shields

    Yes, I have heard this. Quite a few times, actually. Fact: the ground game is the most balanced aspect of STO. Both factions have access to the same exact gear whether you farm it, buy it off the exchange or use medals, badges, marks, etc. The only exception is that Klingons can get a green bat'leth (this, obviously, is minor but should be fixed none-the-less: make bat'leths part of the Otha loot table or have them as rewards for feds).

    For the most part you are right, we both have the same gear (except Federation does sometimes get special rewards like the Overpowered Plasma Sniper Rifle).

    However, did you take in account the Klingon Racial Traits?

    Honorable: 5% Energy Resistance and +10 Threat Generation
    Warrior: +15% Melee, +15% Critical Damage, and +5% Energy Weapon Damage

    So technically a Klingon right off the bat has a greater chance in ground combat than an Federation Captain that fully invested in ground traits.
    "Midgets" are OP/Run faster/Are Harder to Target/Are Griefers/Are not canon

    Most of the time, "midget hate" is just general misdirected rage by someone who just got their butt kicked. However, people do try to level specific charges against our height impaired friends. Midgets do not run faster but yes, the animation for their little legs does move quicker. Using tab to target solves any targeting issues. Short species are canon as well (a glass of tranya, anyone?). And no, players do not create midgets to grief. Usually they do it because it's funny.

    Most likely, if you are being run down, whether it's by a midget or not, it just means the other player is faster at spamming the shift key and/or has an ability to slow you down.

    True, it is a misconception that they run faster, however I think the complaints have more to do with taking advantage of the terrain. Like fully able to hide behind a box while standing up or getting in a tight area and use it for cover.
    Tac/Sci/Eng are OP

    Actually, I never hear this in reference to the ground game. Again, like it or not, the ground game is the most balanced aspect of STO. And it's not rock, paper, scissors, either. Any class can beat any class in a 1v1 with the right kit and tactics.

    Again, true.

    Good Engineers are hard to kill since they constantly keep shields up and have deployables that add to DPS.

    Science can stack exploits until they land and the finish you off.

    Tactical, can expose to a lesser degree. But sometimes they don't need exposes to 1-shot kill.
    Too many holds, roots, slows, etc

    Perhaps the most common complaint about the ground game even though abilities like this are a staple in every MMO. Yes, it sucks but you can counter it and/or live through it by using hypos, shield charges and power cells or, god forbid, playing as a team and utilizing a healer. In a 1v1, these types of abilities, when timed and executed correctly, can be a deciding factor but in no way do they guarantee victory. More often than not, when someone rages about being held, they neglect to mention the other part of the equation... they found themselves out in the open, alone and focus fired upon by 5 enemies. Held or not, you would've died anyway.

    Thats why Cryptic put in those debuff abilities on consumables and it is nice.

    However, the most common stun / hold that can't be counter is the simple rifle butt / palm strike, where you are long-term stunned and able to be repeatedly attacked until exposes, then you are promptly vaporized. So its common place that in close-up, its spammed.
    It's all about gear

    Yes, gear matters. But gear is also overrated. Should you go out and get the best gear possible for your ground toon? Yes. But the difference between a green and blue sniper rifle is very small - in reality, we are looking at one extra bonus enhancement which procs, at best, 5% of the time. Usually these complaints are based on lack of knowledge. For example, at LT I had a guy zone rage about my "OP rifle" because I vaporized two exposed players at once. I was using a white split beam.

    The most important factor in gear is the choice you make when picking what to use. You should be using the right kind of gear for the class and kit that you chose. An example of someone choosing poorly would be a tac with a close combat kit using dual pistols or a stun gun. If you are not sure what to use, ask your fleet, ask the guy who just gave you a dirtnap or post a thread in this forum.

    Unless you are wearing Mk III armor to a Captain battle, pretty much equipment doesn't count. But sometimes those little extra stats do help. But for the most part PvP is practically all around "who can expose the other and get an exploit kill".
    Expose/Exploit is cheap

    You can do everything right in a battle and still lose by getting vaporized. Think of it as an "act of God" if it helps you sleep. Fact is that it's part of the game. Another fact is that by RA/BG, an exploit shot will not always kill you. Could it be removed from the game? Sure. But trust me - the way this game is designed, the expose/exploit system is the ultimate balancing factor. Good luck killing a dedicated healer without it. If they removed it, there would have to be major balancing changes to every class or else some fights would just go on forever.

    I think people rather that exposes be a little more harder to land in PvP than it being removed altogether. Such as Science Captains spamming effects until it lands or someone spamming rifle butt until an expose occurs.
    Matches go on too long/Teams are not balanced

    In what way is this ground specific? Do these things not happen in space? 'Nuff said.

    Originally 15 kill limit was too short, but its long been decided that 40 kills is just too long. And ground PvP isn't as interesting as Space PvP.

    As for Teams not being balanced, that's the classic Mis-Queue. Which also doesn't help with the ground PvP queues being relatively empty these days.
    Feds/Klingons suck at ground and always lose

    Yes, I have heard this on both sides. Klinks who think feds always lose and vice versa. I have played both sides enough to know that this is not something you can generalize about. There are good players on both sides. Both sides are capable of running the table in their bracket all night long or losing over and over. Both sides are also capable of whining, crying and flaming. In a pug situation, which the vast majority of matches are, it only takes one or two skilled players on one side to tip the scales in favor of their team.

    Really this is up to the teams and the luck of the draw. You have a well oiled team and virtually steamroll though the other.
    I'm spec'ed for space and cannot compete in ground

    I think most players that say this really haven't tried or only played a few ground games and gave up. Of course these players are going to have a difficult time... most likely they are fumbling with their buttons and aren't even sure what their kits are capable of in PvP. Ground PvE does little to prepare you for ground PvP.

    You can build a character that can be very effective both in both space and ground. It's not rocket science, people. Yes, you will have to make tough decisions where you put your points and your character will be narrowly focused on only specific kit/BOF abilities. You could also make yourself another toon for ground if you just have to min/max... it's not like leveling up to RA/BG takes that long in STO compared to other MMOs. And if you are a min/max type of player, it should be a cakewalk.

    Or you could even try queuing your dedicated spacer for ground. The other night I was on a team of 4 ground spec players. We accidentally queued for cracked at LTC. Mind you, none of us had much, if any, points allocated to space and we all had hilariously under geared ships. Guess what? We won. 15-14. Oh... and we were on the Fed side, too. :)

    True, ground specs don't really matter. The only thing that matters spec-wise is your traits. Like that little bit of Crits can make a difference. But for the most part it's timing and how you use your kits. That and having an amble supply of consumables. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I do kind of agree of what you have said. but i would like to say something about the classes. Tac is TRIBBLE for ground compared to both sci and eng.

    I've fought against tac officers that have spammed everything including having about 6 summoned pets around them and i still laugh at them cos i can tank and potentially kill them indefinately.

    Tac officer is a worthless profression ground side
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    For the most part you are right, we both have the same gear (except Federation does sometimes get special rewards like the Overpowered Plasma Sniper Rifle).

    However, did you take in account the Klingon Racial Traits?

    Honorable: 5% Energy Resistance and +10 Threat Generation
    Warrior: +15% Melee, +15% Critical Damage, and +5% Energy Weapon Damage

    So technically a Klingon right off the bat has a greater chance in ground combat than an Federation Captain that fully invested in ground traits.

    This might hold water if you couldn't roll a klingon on the fed side. Of note: most of the ground (and space) PvP community agree that aliens are the best race.
    Azurian wrote: »
    True, it is a misconception that they run faster, however I think the complaints have more to do with taking advantage of the terrain. Like fully able to hide behind a box while standing up or getting in a tight area and use it for cover.

    The LOS "issue" works both ways. While a midget may be able to avoid being targeted due to crates, he also cannot target someone on the other side of that crate whereas a "normal" sized character could.
    Azurian wrote: »
    However, the most common stun / hold that can't be counter is the simple rifle butt / palm strike, where you are long-term stunned and able to be repeatedly attacked until exposes, then you are promptly vaporized. So its common place that in close-up, its spammed.

    I'm not going to be the defender of rifle butt spam. Yes, this ability could use some tweaking. All I can say is that as you get more experienced in ground PvP (how to move your toon around and use distance) it will become less and less of a factor. You will have an opportunity to use a device at some point. You also will get an opportunity to act at some point. In a 1v1 fight, it's a joke. In 5v1, you were going to die anyway.
    Azurian wrote: »
    True, ground specs don't really matter. The only thing that matters spec-wise is your traits. Like that little bit of Crits can make a difference. But for the most part it's timing and how you use your kits. That and having an amble supply of consumables. ;)

    I never said spec doesn't matter. If you want to read between the lines, my little anecdote might say that some things are more important than spec, like teamwork, skill and a positive attitude. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dekkameron wrote: »
    Tac is TRIBBLE for ground compared to both sci and eng.

    This is categorically false. The scariest thing on the battlefield is a correctly geared tac crouching with a sniper rifle aimed at your back.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    brainfacer wrote: »
    You know, I'm not convinced midget characters give any advantage at all. Does it even change hitbox size?.

    It does not change the hitbox size. However, it does change the clicky box size. A midget toon has less area for you to click on compared to a giant toon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Biggest complaint i see is about bunnyhopping. Mouthbreathers need to stop keyturning ^^
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I'm pretty sure most of the midgets are just because people heard 'that was what the pros do'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Azurian wrote: »
    For the most part you are right, we both have the same gear (except Federation does sometimes get special rewards like the Overpowered Plasma Sniper Rifle).

    However, did you take in account the Klingon Racial Traits?

    Honorable: 5% Energy Resistance and +10 Threat Generation
    Warrior: +15% Melee, +15% Critical Damage, and +5% Energy Weapon Damage

    So technically a Klingon right off the bat has a greater chance in ground combat than an Federation Captain that fully invested in ground traits.

    Azurian, OPEN YOUR EYES, the klingons are TEH minority of KDF side...QQing about klingon racial traits is stupid, especially if federation has ground traited races also. Tellarite ? Catian ? Andorian ? Vulcan ? All have possiblility to have great ground traits.

    Warrior is just upgraded soldier trait, and honorable is pretty useless compared to other traits.



    Oh and yes, i hate midgets and bunnyhoppers. Not because i cannot deal with it, just because IT LOOOKS STUPID, and those people who do it, know exactly that does, thats why they do it for that so called "fun".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dalnar wrote:
    Azurian, OPEN YOUR EYES, the klingons are TEH minority of KDF side...QQing about klingon racial traits is stupid, especially if federation has ground traited races also. Tellarite ? Catian ? Andorian ? Vulcan ? All have possiblility to have great ground traits.

    Warrior is just upgraded soldier trait, and honorable is pretty useless compared to other traits.



    Oh and yes, i hate midgets and bunnyhoppers. Not because i cannot deal with it, just because IT LOOOKS STUPID, and those people who do it, know exactly that does, thats why they do it for that so called "fun".

    Hey guys, why are you hating on the bunny hoping? I really don't understand. :( Doesn't it look fun from all my videos?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dekkameron wrote: »
    I do kind of agree of what you have said. but i would like to say something about the classes. Tac is TRIBBLE for ground compared to both sci and eng.

    I've fought against tac officers that have spammed everything including having about 6 summoned pets around them and i still laugh at them cos i can tank and potentially kill them indefinately.

    Tac officer is a worthless profression ground side

    I think tactical has very different expectations. Tacticals should not be in the frontline tanking or drawing attention. They should hang back and wait for an aimed shot. Engineers and science, on the other hand, can go to the front lines and fight you and all your pets. The tactical hangs out in the back. So you might be correct that in a 1v1 situation, you as an engineer might survive longer, but in very elite PvP team situations (and I emphasize "team"), a tactical can make the game a nightmare. I've been killed with 3000 damage against a tactical from CHC named Thundernine. He'd go in and stealth, then sneak around and kill people one at a time--very sneaky. If you ever play a game against F.S. fleet or watch my videos, you'll notice that we have a tactical named Pam who manages to get over 30 kills, average 35 kills. It's insane and I have no idea how he does it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    Hey guys, why are you hating on the bunny hoping? I really don't understand. :( Doesn't it look fun from all my videos?

    1. it looks stupid
    2. bunnyhopper really ruins the immersion in all MMOs i have played
    3. in STO, bunny hopping causes (at least for me) melee hits and lunge to rubber-band and of course miss , i would call it exploiting game mechanics, as it gives unfair advantage.


    Just make several jumps in row cause exhaustion like from running, and prevent jumping when the bar is charging up. Problem solved. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    What ruins ground PvP for me is the things that prevent teamwork:

    - Random respawn points
    - Labyrinth maps that don't let me find my team
    - All maps are dark and depressing...

    In space you can at least see where your team is and full-imp straight for them. Usually getting there in a few seconds. On ground i'm running round in circles searching for them for minutes... usually not finding them before running into an enemy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dalnar wrote:
    1. it looks stupid
    2. bunnyhopper really ruins the immersion in all MMOs i have played
    3. in STO, bunny hopping causes (at least for me) melee hits and lunge to rubber-band and of course miss , i would call it exploiting game mechanics, as it gives unfair advantage.


    Just make several jumps in row cause exhaustion like from running, and prevent jumping when the bar is charging up. Problem solved. :o
    Using game mechanics is not exploiting. If someone is bunnyhopping in close to you, stun them and hit sprint to put distance between you and your enemy. Static postioning in pvp in any mmo is bad.

    Jump mechanic is fine. Putting in an exaustation mechanic would make situations where you are stuck/or objects are in los even worse. (ie locations such as the crates on the bottom of deserted facility/ ledges in shanty town)
    What ruins ground PvP for me is the things that prevent teamwork:

    - Random respawn points
    - Labyrinth maps that don't let me find my team
    - All maps are dark and depressing...

    In space you can at least see where your team is and full-imp straight for them. Usually getting there in a few seconds. On ground i'm running round in circles searching for them for minutes... usually not finding them before running into an enemy.

    All the ground maps are well layed out, they are easy to memorise and to kite enemies if you can't find your team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    skababy wrote:
    All the ground maps are well layed out, they are easy to memorise and to kite enemies if you can't find your team.

    First of all, i do NOT find the maps easy to memorize at all! I admit to having little MMO experience, but in real life at least i have very good navigating skills and sense of direction. When I say the map feels like labyrinths i mean it! (of course i only spent a few hours trying to figure them out, before i stopped doing ground-pvp)

    I admit to not having done much ground PvP. The reason for this being that a usual game for me looks like this:
    - i spawn, and wonder where is my team?
    - I have no idea where to move
    - i try to move toward friendly dots on the map
    - i can not reach them because of map layout; they are on different level, i have to move back and around something etc.
    - an enemy, or more likely 2-3 of them, pops up and kill me in 2-3 seconds.
    All this is done in 10-15 seconds... I don't find this any fun, and so i stopped doing ground pvp... The "spawn-get killed before doing anything-repeat" procedure gets old fast...

    (i can hold my own very well in space pvp and on ground in stf, but not on ground in pvp... maybe the problem with ground pvp is that is scares away most new players (new pvp'ersthat is), before they can build the required experience to do it ok and have fun? To me that indicates that something should be changed)

    btw: i'm a medic, and mostly focus on supporting my team. without a team to support/keep alive i'm not of much use... I have no buffs/debuffs, and my heals are no good when i'm held/stunned...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    First of all, i do NOT find the maps easy to memorize at all! I admit to having little MMO experience, but in real life at least i have very good navigating skills and sense of direction. When I say the map feels like labyrinths i mean it! (of course i only spent a few hours trying to figure them out, before i stopped doing ground-pvp)

    I admit to not having done much ground PvP. The reason for this being that a usual game for me looks like this:
    - i spawn, and wonder where is my team?
    - I have no idea where to move
    - i try to move toward friendly dots on the map
    - i can not reach them because of map layout; they are on different level, i have to move back and around something etc.
    - an enemy, or more likely 2-3 of them, pops up and kill me in 2-3 seconds.
    All this is done in 10-15 seconds... I don't find this any fun, and so i stopped doing ground pvp... The "spawn-get killed before doing anything-repeat" procedure gets old fast...

    (i can hold my own very well in space pvp and on ground in stf, but not on ground in pvp... maybe the problem with ground pvp is that is scares away most new players (new pvp'ersthat is), before they can build the required experience to do it ok and have fun? To me that indicates that something should be changed)

    btw: i'm a medic, and mostly focus on supporting my team. without a team to support/keep alive i'm not of much use... I have no buffs/debuffs, and my heals are no good when i'm held/stunned...
    MAPS ARE MAZES MYTH:

    assimilated cruiser is a rectangal with a corridor down the middle.
    ghost ship is a square with two sides of the square having two levels on top of each other
    deserted facility is 3 sqaures on top of each other overlapping in the middle
    edit: shanty town is a big square with ramps leading up top of 2 buildings, buildings are separated by a ally

    compared to maps in fps games they are quite straightforward

    zooming the mini map/map out increases navigation ease. keeping your eyes on the minimap helps. coming from an rts background im used to having my eyes on the minimap most of the time im not in combat. this should prevent getting insta killed by enemies, as the radar shows enemy postions(noob firendly). ie run away from red dots

    as a medic you have 3 expose debuffs, tricorder, nanite plague and neural netralizer. with the borg medical kit you get another expose debuff(and offensive shield reducer) through tach harmonic. if you have all 3 heal buffs(damage resistance part) on yourself (hot, burst, naite heals) you can survive most dps while stunned or held. if someone lands an expose you use a consumable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    The only reason I hate midgets is they look ridiculous :rolleyes: Ditto circle strafing and bunny hopping.

    In PvP people will (not unreasonably) use every mechanic they can to win but my objection is why create a game with such goofy looking mechanics? MMO'ized Mass Effect 2 this ain't *sigh* :(

    I have tried quite hard to get 'into' the ground game but I just can't. I am not saying it cannot be fun at all (particularly after a few bottles of beer) but it could be oh so much better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bunny hopping? That's one of the annoying things I already hated in Unreal Tournament, right? I hated seeing everyone jumping around. Not that it mattered, I suck at this type of ego-shooter anyway.

    Descent, now that's another matter..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Iam playing both sides so iam not a Kling/Fed Hater ^^

    I didnt really payed attention to why

    - but on my Kling Char it was much easier to achieve new Items in Low-Levels
    - 40 kills in ground is really to much ... i know its the same for both sides, still i should be changed
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    DeadlyShoe wrote:
    I'm pretty sure most of the midgets are just because people heard 'that was what the pros do'.

    That cracked me up right there.


    Also.. Good post, OP.. can I be your friend? :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    fakkya wrote:
    - 40 kills in ground is really to much ... i know its the same for both sides, still i should be changed

    HAHAHA, people say 40 kills is too much, then other people say "I die in 3 seconds, that's too fast" HAHAHA... So many complaints about ground PvP!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Dalnar wrote:
    1. it looks stupid
    2. bunnyhopper really ruins the immersion in all MMOs i have played
    3. in STO, bunny hopping causes (at least for me) melee hits and lunge to rubber-band and of course miss , i would call it exploiting game mechanics, as it gives unfair advantage.

    That's exactly right, bunny hoping has three advantages:

    1) Hoping gives good defense against rifle butt spam. It makes the close combat kit extremely difficult; makes Bat'leth attacks extremely difficult.
    2) In order to avoid fatal flanking damage from your opponents, it's best to stay very close to the walls. Unfortunately, as a result, when you are moving around, you will slam into the pillars and obstacles against the walls. So you have to keep jumping in order to jump over the pillars. Not to mention jump over the tons of boxes and crates that liter the PvP maps.
    3) Jumping makes it extremely difficult to target when someone is simply click targeting.

    What I am hearing from this thread is that people want to dumb down PvP into Hello Kitty online, or worse, simply shoot each other point blank with zero interaction with the terrain and zero measures taken to counter close combat. On the one side there are people constantly whining about rifle butt, and on the other side there are people whining about jumping; yet jumping is the easiest way to TAKE COVER behind a crate or keep them away from close combat and rifle spamming you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bheduwa wrote:
    That cracked me up right there.


    Also.. Good post, OP.. can I be your friend? :o

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SzE08aInn4
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    What I am hearing from this thread is that people want to dumb down PvP into Hello Kitty online, or worse, simply shoot each other point blank with zero interaction with the terrain and zero measures taken to counter close combat.

    I see commnets along these lines in game all the time on fed side. Cryptic please don't listen to whiners and ruin ground pvp as well. My spaceship is basically a transport ship now (now selling round trip tickets from Earth to Otha and back, get them while they're cheap)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Thanks for the post BorrowedTune. I'm an MMO noob (this being my first). I do well in space (as far as I can tell) and have a great time with it. While working on Accolades I've been doing more ground PvE (Starbase 24, Big Dig), am starting to understand the controls/movement/powers of my ground toon, and after a recent respec, I found I had more points to put into ground skills. The point is, I'm planning on playing some Ground PvP this weekend. I expect I'll get deadified quickly, but hope to still have fun with it and give it an earnest try.

    I have some questions I hope someone will answer:

    1) How does one even Bunny Hope? What is the mechanic/keystroke? Is it an ability or just a certain skill the player developes to hit a specific combination of buttons?

    2) Will someone please explain Expose/Exploit to me?

    3) Any other hints/suggestions for a newb groundling?

    As an FYI: I am a Fed Human Tactical Officer, RA5. The only ground trait I have is Teamwork (but I don't know what the +5% Team Exploit Damage means). All my weapons/equipment are very rare. I use an anti-proton split-beam rifle as my primary weapon and I recently picked up a stun pistol (don't remember which type atm) as a side-arm. I have a "Fire" kit, I think it's call.
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