I made a new thread for this so we can sort out the ideas for a solution for the Ramming issues without sounding like a Flame / Whine thread that might be ignored by the Devs or end up being moderated.
Please post your idea for a solution to the Ramming issue here if you feel it needs one.
I am not a fan of nerfing so I was trying to think of a way to leave the power the way it is but make it so it is less favorable to use so often. I also would like whatever is done to a power to add flavor to the game, not take it away.
I do feel ramming is canon and should be part of the game but it needs a bigger down side for its use. My idea is this:
1. When you zone into a PvP match or zone the ability to repair with Critical - Minor components from the Difficulty Slider settings is disabled.
2. When you use Ramming Speed you generate critical damage debuff on yourself like when you die doing an elite DP setting mission. The debuff can't be repaired until your out of the match and the more you use that tactic the more debuffs you generate on yourself.
3. If the debuffs aren't strong enough deterent for over use of Ramming speed, give the debuff a stronger modifier or make it so that it generates 2 or 3 debuffs a shot instead of just one. Would need toning / tweaking.
4. Dieing does not wipe the debuffs off and you still get it if you live. The generation of the debuff or debuffs is 100 % chance every time you click it. The more you use the tactic the weaker your ship becomes until the end of the match as it is to damaged to be fully repaired in combat.
5. Once out of PvP or a PvP zone you can repair it as per normal conditions.
This fits canon and does not nerf the skill and would work within the current systems in place in the game. The key would be to make the Ramming Speed skill a desperate tactic, not a tactic you want to use every time it's up in a match. This would add to the game while still making the power less favorable to use but not nerf it into the realm of uselessness.
#1. RAM damage is based on Crew primarily. Smaller ships such as BoPs, Escorts, and Raptors have a much greater chance of doing less damage and a much higher chance of taking damage themselves.
#2. Ramming disables the surviving ships temporarily.
#1. RAM damage is based on Crew primarily. Smaller ships such as BoPs, Escorts, and Raptors have a much greater chance of doing less damage and a much higher chance of taking damage themselves.
#2. Ramming disables the surviving ships temporarily.
#3. Ramming cooldown is increased.
Not to sound flip, but what does crew size have to do with a ramming ship's mass? Sure, generally speaking, a ship with a larger crew could be said to have more mass, but that's a reallllllly strong generalization. Or look at Klingon ships versus Fed ships... Klingons will, generally speaking, probably be packed in closer together (higher population) with less "ship" around them because they don't appreciate "creature comforts" like the Feds do. The Feds would have less crew in a larger ship because they want more room to walk around, more private quarters space...
As another example, take the carrier; it's got a crew of 4,000. At least at the start of a match it does. If you're not packing a Tac Team, there's a good chance that you'll be at around 25% crew for the majority of the match. The ship hasn't lost any mass, yet it's operating at around 250 - 500 crew.
As it is now, I do more damage and have a much better chance of surviving the ram if I'm in my carrier. If I'm in my BoP and I ram a cruiser, I have to take steps to survive. Specifically, I need to pop something that increases hull resists, or I go boom.
Honestly, I don't mind how it is now, but increasing the cool down wouldn't bother me much.
The problem isn't so much with the ability, as to how fast combat is, versus how fast we can repair, versus the chance of random systems shutting down, et cetera. Right now, all of these things operate like super (or magic) powers, instead of skills or tactics or assigning crews to repair damage or reinforce the ship's structural members.
Ramming speed option only available when ship has a certain hull percentage. 50-% idealy
This is pretty much the only change that is needed... this would make it a high chance of suicide. Allow people to ram every 2 min is fine... just only allow ramming at 40 or 50%. This way you may take them with you but its the suicide run it has always been in cannon... with a small chance that you may live with 5 hull or something.
{Edit - Better yet put no cooldown timer on Ram at all and only enable it at 25% hull}
haha no way. Evasuve man spamming ramming speed would be a bit OP
Fair they could leave in the timer. lol
It won't be all that op, if they died on every ram though.
I have a vested intrest... as a hard to kill bop I have died when I flew a little too close to a stalemated cruiser... they seem to ram me at some point. All the talk of basing it on ship size or crew size scares me.
I see no real reason to make any changes to Ramming Speed. It still takes skill to use and the ship who uses it takes proportional damage. In PvP, a player supporting the victim can take advantage of this with a good shield rip and deal with the rammer. It is moot to debate whether or not the usage is canon as most effects that are canon do not translate well to the gaming environment. I see no reason to stack a ton of debuffs on the user as this will make the skill even more worthless than "Abandon Ship". Ramming speed is also a good escape move for all players as there is no other way to go to full impulse to regroup.
I see no real reason to make any changes to Ramming Speed. It still takes skill to use and the ship who uses it takes proportional damage. In PvP, a player supporting the victim can take advantage of this with a good shield rip and deal with the rammer. It is moot to debate whether or not the usage is canon as most effects that are canon do not translate well to the gaming environment. I see no reason to stack a ton of debuffs on the user as this will make the skill even more worthless than "Abandon Ship". Ramming speed is also a good escape move for all players as there is no other way to go to full impulse to regroup.
Takes skill eh? Hmm i happen to have a macro that merely relies on me facing remotely the same direction.
"Even more worthless" ?
Also i would gladly give up the use of ramming speed as an form of normal movement to change it from what it is right now.
Takes skill eh? Hmm i happen to have a macro that merely relies on me facing remotely the same direction.
I do not rely on ramming speed enough to need a macro. If that suits your style, that is fine. However coming off as if your personal solution is the only solution is pretty patronizing. Regarding your quoting of my statement of "even more worthless", at least state your reason for challenging my conclusion. Just quoting me and saying nothing is also patronizing.
Oh it was going on before I made this new thread. I only made it so that the ideas could be put here instead of a thread with " Idiotic " in the title. Sorta also hoped it wouldn't flame out but that was a foolish wish on my part.
As far as Ramming speed goes /shrug change it or not I posted my idea for it but no matter what goes on with it I really don't care. If you want a lot of Ramming in game cool you paid your money to play like I did, post or not its up to you.
Well ramming speed should never be done lightly. Its never done lightly in canon, though it is done, so it shouldn't just be another attack placed on a timer, that ships simply line up against other ships and train it, with no real consequences to themselves.
So if I was going to fix ramming speed, but not make it worthless.
First, when ramming speed is initiated, the attackers shields and weapons and aux drop to zero and all grey out in order to provide that extra push to the engines and to show that bridge officers are bracing themselves and not able to pop skills (not a big change I know right now, except the shield drop thing).
Ramming Speed is then initiated like it is now, damage is calculated like it is now to both ships (remember though the attacker now has no shields).
When the attack run is done, regardless of its success or failure, the attackers ship has a ten second cool down on all systems and skills (meaning everything stops) for ten seconds, reflecting the stress and damage to the ship and crew. Obviously shields and hull can be healed by teammates during this cooldown, but otherwise you're a sitting duck, that's assuming you survive the attack run.
Personally, I like ramming. Its one of the few things that's actually fun in PvP. If anything is to be done with Ramming, it's that it needs to be back to the 3-4 minute timer than the 2 minute one.
But there are a number of tools to avoid being rammed and dieing: Brace, Repulsors, Photonic Shockwave, and even simple evasive, emergency engines, or even engine batteries. So moving just a little bit is enough to survive.
Personally, I like ramming. Its one of the few things that's actually fun in PvP. If anything is to be done with Ramming, it's that it needs to be back to the 3-4 minute timer than the 2 minute one.
But there are a number of tools to avoid being rammed and dieing: Brace, Repulsors, Photonic Shockwave, and even simple evasive, emergency engines, or even engine batteries. So moving just a little bit is enough to survive.
would like the idea of it being a more 'final' style solution that has been tossed around, and yes while it has counters in general there is no way to notice that a player is about to ram you.
maybe if it took a few seconds to pull off, and your target gets a warning signal or something
would like the idea of it being a more 'final' style solution that has been tossed around, and yes while it has counters in general there is no way to notice that a player is about to ram you.
maybe if it took a few seconds to pull off, and your target gets a warning signal or something
You never noticed the graphics ? the purple stuff around ramming ship...
I've got a few ideas on this and some are more drastic than others with the others being similar to what has already being posted.
1. Only usable when your ship's hull is below 25%. I've seen below 50% suggested but that's high enough that you have a good chance still. At 25% and below it's down to the player to decide if their skills will keep them alive or if they should ram. If you're being damaged so much that you have no time to decide at under 25% .... well you're dead anyway.
2. This ties in to the above with it being used only below 25% hull. You die doing it. No questions about it. It's not a tactic to inflict kinetic damage that bypasses shields, it's a last gasp measure to inflict as much damage as possible while knowing you're going to die too.
3. If number 2. is too much then this becomes the next best thing. Only usable once per spawn. You use it, great, you survive, great, but you can't use it again until you respawn meaning it can't be spammed and would have far more thought put into it and when to use it. To prevent it being used, you die, and then get it refreshed I'd also throw in the current 2 - 3 minute cooldown after a respawn. Those that use it as damage and nothing else would cry over this change, those that use it as a last gasp measure won't suffer for it.
I dislike making ramming speed a "hull %" skill that would inherently make it more valuable to cruisers as they can shrug off the damage, for a sci vessel, BoP, Raptor, or escort ramming is a very risky move.
I understand the desire to make it more of a last resort tactic, but that only fits lore for Feds. I have no doubts the Jem'Hadar and a few other species in the lore would see it as viable at full health.
Lastly, ramming speed serves several functions each that are very helpful currently. 1.) a risky form of escape as your shield resist drops to minimum, weapon power, auxillary, etc meaning after you use it, the only thing that is viable is escape. 2.) It gives you a risky option to do damage to someone who has RSP/RSF on. 3. It lets you provide a finishing blow when otherwise you couldn't. 4. Fun factor. 5. If a group uses it will ilikely kill the target at great cost.
As it is, I think there needs to be some better arguments if you want it to be nerfed as it serves a lot of useful functions and the proposed ideas so far tend to leave gapping holes in what the ability allows for, like an RSP/RSF counter.
As it is, I think there needs to be some better arguments if you want it to be nerfed as it serves a lot of useful functions and the proposed ideas so far tend to leave gapping holes in what the ability allows for, like an RSP/RSF counter.
i honestly dont think it needs a nerf, and infact most the people posting dont. as it is the damage will equal, if your lucky a well place torpedo. (at lest in my experiance)
I would just like it to be a bit more of a last resort option, though your point on how the other races could use it more freely is a good one
btw, Dyonas thanks for the sig. Its a really good link
I dislike making ramming speed a "hull %" skill that would inherently make it more valuable to cruisers as they can shrug off the damage, for a sci vessel, BoP, Raptor, or escort ramming is a very risky move.
I understand the desire to make it more of a last resort tactic, but that only fits lore for Feds. I have no doubts the Jem'Hadar and a few other species in the lore would see it as viable at full health.
Lastly, ramming speed serves several functions each that are very helpful currently. 1.) a risky form of escape as your shield resist drops to minimum, weapon power, auxillary, etc meaning after you use it, the only thing that is viable is escape. 2.) It gives you a risky option to do damage to someone who has RSP/RSF on. 3. It lets you provide a finishing blow when otherwise you couldn't. 4. Fun factor. 5. If a group uses it will ilikely kill the target at great cost.
As it is, I think there needs to be some better arguments if you want it to be nerfed as it serves a lot of useful functions and the proposed ideas so far tend to leave gapping holes in what the ability allows for, like an RSP/RSF counter.
RSP and RSF have counters. SNB is the counter to pretty much everything yes but there are other options. The two most common are to switch targets or to ignore it and blast away. Concentrated fire will kill a ship with RSP via bleedthrough. A skill that ignores virtually all defenses and can be used over and over is not a counter, it's an "I Win" button in all but name. Using it as an escape mechanism is not one of the intended functions and taking it away would see more people pop sooner.
Not to sound flip, but what does crew size have to do with a ramming ship's mass? Sure, generally speaking, a ship with a larger crew could be said to have more mass, but that's a reallllllly strong generalization. Or look at Klingon ships versus Fed ships... Klingons will, generally speaking, probably be packed in closer together (higher population) with less "ship" around them because they don't appreciate "creature comforts" like the Feds do. The Feds would have less crew in a larger ship because they want more room to walk around, more private quarters space...
As another example, take the carrier; it's got a crew of 4,000. At least at the start of a match it does. If you're not packing a Tac Team, there's a good chance that you'll be at around 25% crew for the majority of the match. The ship hasn't lost any mass, yet it's operating at around 250 - 500 crew.
As it is now, I do more damage and have a much better chance of surviving the ram if I'm in my carrier. If I'm in my BoP and I ram a cruiser, I have to take steps to survive. Specifically, I need to pop something that increases hull resists, or I go boom.
Honestly, I don't mind how it is now, but increasing the cool down wouldn't bother me much.
The problem isn't so much with the ability, as to how fast combat is, versus how fast we can repair, versus the chance of random systems shutting down, et cetera. Right now, all of these things operate like super (or magic) powers, instead of skills or tactics or assigning crews to repair damage or reinforce the ship's structural members.
I'm talking about max crew value of the ship not how many crew are actually alive.
I do not rely on ramming speed enough to need a macro. If that suits your style, that is fine. However coming off as if your personal solution is the only solution is pretty patronizing. Regarding your quoting of my statement of "even more worthless", at least state your reason for challenging my conclusion. Just quoting me and saying nothing is also patronizing.
I cannot remember the last last i did a ramming speed i never use it. but the macro is there if i need it. I am surprisingly a roleplayer and i would not use such a thing with my liberated Jem'hadar.
I did not intend to be rude to you. SOrry if you took it that way.
All i meant that currecntly it is not even remotely worthless. (unless Minimasx does it ^^)
LoL. I really like the bit about how there should be some kind of warning or indication that someone is going to ram you. I feel the same way about alpha strikes, buffs and debuffs in general. If you are going to kill me, I demand that you message me first and perhaps we can discuss terms. Then maybe I can kill you back!
I'd support anything or even everything along the following lines:
* Increase cool down timer
* Random system shutdown (stun) for a varied duration on both ships involved in the collision
* Damage based on ship mass (taking hull damage into account as well)
* % Hull damage on ramming ship
* Limited maneuverability once the course is set
* Wildly outrageous range of damage to both ships (do you feel lucky, punk?)
----
* True Warp Core Breach! I'd like to see a longer countdown to core breaches to give people a chance to escape a true shockwave and severe damage. Sure, that's not strictly related to ramming but I still think watching everyone scatter when someone goes boom would be fun and funneh.
Comments
#1. RAM damage is based on Crew primarily. Smaller ships such as BoPs, Escorts, and Raptors have a much greater chance of doing less damage and a much higher chance of taking damage themselves.
#2. Ramming disables the surviving ships temporarily.
#3. Ramming cooldown is increased.
Not to sound flip, but what does crew size have to do with a ramming ship's mass? Sure, generally speaking, a ship with a larger crew could be said to have more mass, but that's a reallllllly strong generalization. Or look at Klingon ships versus Fed ships... Klingons will, generally speaking, probably be packed in closer together (higher population) with less "ship" around them because they don't appreciate "creature comforts" like the Feds do. The Feds would have less crew in a larger ship because they want more room to walk around, more private quarters space...
As another example, take the carrier; it's got a crew of 4,000. At least at the start of a match it does. If you're not packing a Tac Team, there's a good chance that you'll be at around 25% crew for the majority of the match. The ship hasn't lost any mass, yet it's operating at around 250 - 500 crew.
As it is now, I do more damage and have a much better chance of surviving the ram if I'm in my carrier. If I'm in my BoP and I ram a cruiser, I have to take steps to survive. Specifically, I need to pop something that increases hull resists, or I go boom.
Honestly, I don't mind how it is now, but increasing the cool down wouldn't bother me much.
The problem isn't so much with the ability, as to how fast combat is, versus how fast we can repair, versus the chance of random systems shutting down, et cetera. Right now, all of these things operate like super (or magic) powers, instead of skills or tactics or assigning crews to repair damage or reinforce the ship's structural members.
This is pretty much the only change that is needed... this would make it a high chance of suicide. Allow people to ram every 2 min is fine... just only allow ramming at 40 or 50%. This way you may take them with you but its the suicide run it has always been in cannon... with a small chance that you may live with 5 hull or something.
{Edit - Better yet put no cooldown timer on Ram at all and only enable it at 25% hull}
haha no way. Evasuve man spamming ramming speed would be a bit OP
Fair they could leave in the timer. lol
It won't be all that op, if they died on every ram though.
I have a vested intrest... as a hard to kill bop I have died when I flew a little too close to a stalemated cruiser... they seem to ram me at some point. All the talk of basing it on ship size or crew size scares me.
Nope. To be canon it would have to be a last gasp attack, not a tactic repeatedly used in every battle.
Make it only available at 49% hull or lower and increase the cool down to at least 15mins, and that might well solve the problem.
Yer it's been used many times, but not even remotely in the same context that it is used in STO
Takes skill eh? Hmm i happen to have a macro that merely relies on me facing remotely the same direction.
"Even more worthless" ?
Also i would gladly give up the use of ramming speed as an form of normal movement to change it from what it is right now.
Fair enough.
I would have no problems with that change.
I do not rely on ramming speed enough to need a macro. If that suits your style, that is fine. However coming off as if your personal solution is the only solution is pretty patronizing. Regarding your quoting of my statement of "even more worthless", at least state your reason for challenging my conclusion. Just quoting me and saying nothing is also patronizing.
As far as Ramming speed goes /shrug change it or not I posted my idea for it but no matter what goes on with it I really don't care. If you want a lot of Ramming in game cool
So if I was going to fix ramming speed, but not make it worthless.
First, when ramming speed is initiated, the attackers shields and weapons and aux drop to zero and all grey out in order to provide that extra push to the engines and to show that bridge officers are bracing themselves and not able to pop skills (not a big change I know right now, except the shield drop thing).
Ramming Speed is then initiated like it is now, damage is calculated like it is now to both ships (remember though the attacker now has no shields).
When the attack run is done, regardless of its success or failure, the attackers ship has a ten second cool down on all systems and skills (meaning everything stops) for ten seconds, reflecting the stress and damage to the ship and crew. Obviously shields and hull can be healed by teammates during this cooldown, but otherwise you're a sitting duck, that's assuming you survive the attack run.
But there are a number of tools to avoid being rammed and dieing: Brace, Repulsors, Photonic Shockwave, and even simple evasive, emergency engines, or even engine batteries. So moving just a little bit is enough to survive.
would like the idea of it being a more 'final' style solution that has been tossed around, and yes while it has counters in general there is no way to notice that a player is about to ram you.
maybe if it took a few seconds to pull off, and your target gets a warning signal or something
You never noticed the graphics ? the purple stuff around ramming ship...
1. Only usable when your ship's hull is below 25%. I've seen below 50% suggested but that's high enough that you have a good chance still. At 25% and below it's down to the player to decide if their skills will keep them alive or if they should ram. If you're being damaged so much that you have no time to decide at under 25% .... well you're dead anyway.
2. This ties in to the above with it being used only below 25% hull. You die doing it. No questions about it. It's not a tactic to inflict kinetic damage that bypasses shields, it's a last gasp measure to inflict as much damage as possible while knowing you're going to die too.
3. If number 2. is too much then this becomes the next best thing. Only usable once per spawn. You use it, great, you survive, great, but you can't use it again until you respawn meaning it can't be spammed and would have far more thought put into it and when to use it. To prevent it being used, you die, and then get it refreshed I'd also throw in the current 2 - 3 minute cooldown after a respawn. Those that use it as damage and nothing else would cry over this change, those that use it as a last gasp measure won't suffer for it.
yeah, just hard to notice when its point blank
I understand the desire to make it more of a last resort tactic, but that only fits lore for Feds. I have no doubts the Jem'Hadar and a few other species in the lore would see it as viable at full health.
Lastly, ramming speed serves several functions each that are very helpful currently. 1.) a risky form of escape as your shield resist drops to minimum, weapon power, auxillary, etc meaning after you use it, the only thing that is viable is escape. 2.) It gives you a risky option to do damage to someone who has RSP/RSF on. 3. It lets you provide a finishing blow when otherwise you couldn't. 4. Fun factor. 5. If a group uses it will ilikely kill the target at great cost.
As it is, I think there needs to be some better arguments if you want it to be nerfed as it serves a lot of useful functions and the proposed ideas so far tend to leave gapping holes in what the ability allows for, like an RSP/RSF counter.
i honestly dont think it needs a nerf, and infact most the people posting dont. as it is the damage will equal, if your lucky a well place torpedo. (at lest in my experiance)
I would just like it to be a bit more of a last resort option, though your point on how the other races could use it more freely is a good one
btw, Dyonas thanks for the sig. Its a really good link
edited
RSP and RSF have counters. SNB is the counter to pretty much everything yes but there are other options. The two most common are to switch targets or to ignore it and blast away. Concentrated fire will kill a ship with RSP via bleedthrough. A skill that ignores virtually all defenses and can be used over and over is not a counter, it's an "I Win" button in all but name. Using it as an escape mechanism is not one of the intended functions and taking it away would see more people pop sooner.
I'm talking about max crew value of the ship not how many crew are actually alive.
Carriers being the most lethal.
I cannot remember the last last i did a ramming speed i never use it. but the macro is there if i need it. I am surprisingly a roleplayer and i would not use such a thing with my liberated Jem'hadar.
I did not intend to be rude to you. SOrry if you took it that way.
All i meant that currecntly it is not even remotely worthless. (unless Minimasx does it ^^)
I'd support anything or even everything along the following lines:
* Increase cool down timer
* Random system shutdown (stun) for a varied duration on both ships involved in the collision
* Damage based on ship mass (taking hull damage into account as well)
* % Hull damage on ramming ship
* Limited maneuverability once the course is set
* Wildly outrageous range of damage to both ships (do you feel lucky, punk?)
----
* True Warp Core Breach! I'd like to see a longer countdown to core breaches to give people a chance to escape a true shockwave and severe damage. Sure, that's not strictly related to ramming but I still think watching everyone scatter when someone goes boom would be fun and funneh.