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Learning Curves

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
We are still less than a week into Season 1.2, and already Feds are finding frustration. The experience is similar to having your mother-in-law give you advice, there is some pain there but you learn to live with it. Why do Feds have this experience?

Because most Fed fleets are not PvP centric, while most Klingon fleets are. If you look at who is having problems adjusting and adapting, learning faster or suffering the learning curve, the single most influencial factor is knowledge. We need to keep these things in mind.

A Klingon fleet - GoD, SVK, Clan Hunters, CHC, etc. but its a long list - is most likely to have several people on with each person testing, learning, and improving themselves in PvP in season 1.2- and in almost every case each fleet is using voice communication to share lessons learned and new ideas. The knowledge transfer is faster, broader, and the experience of the individual players - most of whom had to level via PvP - only contributes greater to the variety of testing possibilities. It is worth noting that with the universal BO slots on a BoP, more variety and combination of skills can be tested at the same time.

Only a handful of Fed fleets are PvP centric - and shocking - those players are adapting faster than other Federation players. Just like Klingon Fleets, pooled knowledge enhances their ability to learn, adapt, adjust, and accumulate knowledge.

People join fleets for different reasons, but if you are a PvPer, and you are having to learn all these changes in PvP by yourself and without friends because your fleet is not an active PvP centric fleet - expect to be behind the curve until sufficient time has past that you have learned what has changed. Every day this week I have adapted with a new tip based solely on 1.2 changes. I can't imagine anyone, even those like me who have PvP fleet resources to draw upon, has figured out how these changes impact individual playstyles towards optimal configurations.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    You made a post which his hard to give an answer to. I generally, agree with most of your statements. Though, I'm not part of a PVP fleet.

    My resources are:
    Forums
    Other players who don't respond with f' off n00b :) (which btw, no one has done yet, everyone seems to want to share, even people some may fear to see. Be respectful, dont start off "I'm going to report you for hacking".)

    I'll play my character, I watch my enemies tactics.. For example, on my Fed, I wasn't sitting there saying zomg, GoD, TRIBBLE that; Klinks OP. I watched how they opened, when they use abilities, when they knew when to fold them, knew when to hold them, knew when walk... wait.. I'm digressing from my point.

    I think a large % of peoples issue is pop it all and see who's left after the smoke.

    I don't pop SCI Team, Eng Team, RSP and Haz Emit, cause I’m taking a little dmg. I pick the response to the aggression. So, when I do need something it's there for me. Same thing for offence, I keep in mind someone may snb my attack buffs off. I don't use everything at one time. It maybe a lower ranked version after I refresh, but it will be something more than /zone zomg, you pickle head!

    As you will notice below, I'm mostly Klink, but I watch alot.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I am no sheep, I would rather die a million times and learn the hard way what works than be some lame follower of fashion. :);):D:o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    After a pvp game, look at the top scoring players and ask them if they wouldn't mind giving you some tips. Especially relelvent if they're flying the same ship class as you at the time. Doesnt matter if they're klingon or fed. Most peeps will be happy to answer you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Blenda wrote:
    I am no sheep, I would rather die a million times and learn the hard way what works than be some lame follower of fashion.

    I would rather colaborate and adapt the builds that kill you a million times. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Blenda wrote:
    I am no sheep, I would rather die a million times and learn the hard way what works than be some lame follower of fashion. :);):D:o

    I'll take 10 people like that, who also know how to cooperate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    I'll take 10 people like that, who also know how to cooperate.

    It might be prudent to mention that there are only about 3-4 actually creative fleets (that are developping the stratagies) in this game. The rest of the players are either developing on previously discovered tactics/builds or cookie-cuttering the latest FoTM (which gets created by the 3-4 fleets).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    It might be prudent to mention that there are only about 3-4 actually creative fleets (that are developping the stratagies) in this game. The rest of the players are either developing on previously discovered tactics/builds or cookie-cuttering the latest FoTM (which gets created by the 3-4 fleets).

    True with almost every MMO, I say almost, well cause I haven't played them ALL. But the ones, I have played, there has always been the ones who lead, and the sheep followed. Then, it gets even funner when people talk TRIBBLE about them in the forums :)

    Though, I can say, yours and ambience's information was the first I read, when I started playing. Player Guides are nice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    First i was :confused:, then i was :mad:, i kept practising and asking and learning, now i am :D

    :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    It might be prudent to mention that there are only about 3-4 actually creative fleets (that are developping the stratagies) in this game. The rest of the players are either developing on previously discovered tactics/builds or cookie-cuttering the latest FoTM (which gets created by the 3-4 fleets).

    This actually bothers me a little bit. I tend to be a little bit more creative on the Cruiser side, actively testing for "good builds" on tribble, but I can't seem to do the same on the escort/BoP side. So I just wait until I see what Santa does. ;)

    I actually think it's part of the way the game works, though. In EVE, for example, one is almost encouraged to be creative as one can come up with a pretty off the wall setup and actually have it work because the unexpected nature of the setup surprises opponents and often leaves them with no ability to counter your creativity before losing their ship(s). Further, there are quite a few groups that come up with innovative group tactics that each is capable of using to great effect on the battlefield.

    In STO, though, there is very little creativity encouraged simply because each ship gets X BO slots and there are only Y BO abilities that are worthwhile. Damage type doesn't really matter. There's no reason to run anything other than energy type consoles for tactical. There's no real reason to run anything other than +power consoles in engineering slots (except maybe 1 EPS). In the end I think equipment plays a small role on the battlefield. This ends up with cookie cutter setups for each role on the battlefield.

    So, while in EVE I have multiple options which can be effective (rifter for example can be shield tanked, armor tanked or speed tanked, cap warfare, max damage or remote rep fit, multiple EWAR options, etc) the limited number of effective abilities as well as being hard locked into BO slot types for anything except the BoP really places a limit on creativity in STO. You come up with one or two "Best" fits for a role or fighting style and it's game over. There are some exceptions, but they are most assuredly exceptions rather than the rule.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    This actually bothers me a little bit. I tend to be a little bit more creative on the Cruiser side, actively testing for "good builds" on tribble, but I can't seem to do the same on the escort/BoP side. So I just wait until I see what Santa does. ;)
    <text>

    check your inbox.

    In cruisers or escorts (engineering or tactical) there really isn't much room for creativity that expands in multiple directions. Either you go upwards in healing&survivability/dps (respectively) or your wasting large amounts of potential. Science has the most room to be creative though, since there are many areas that science shines in.

    if you look at the past (pre1.2), people were already popularizing the trends that we see today. No doubt that they will grow and expand into more complex stratagies/builds, but that wasn't the point that I'm trying to make.

    What cryptic should do is work on the endgame pvp. Stuff like automated tournaments, persistant warzones, & PvP rewards (like a fame stick, or hero rank in gw) would go along way towards keeping pvp'rs in the game. Additionally it would give fleets a place to challenge one another, so scrubs can stay in the minor leagues without complaining (although they will)

    pre1.2 people that made stuff famous/popular (seriously, name a trend and I can probably link who started it)
    • Emerald - RSP boat
    • Akumarev - Stunlocking cruiser
    • Ninjaboy - DPS cruiser
    • Faithborn - 5KM limits
    • Fedball - FBP spamming BoP
    • Blackjack - torpedoless escorts/raptors
    • DoB - TSS spamming, ES chains, coordinated spikes, first to get banned from organizedpvp channel
    • Section 31 - 4 cruiser teams.
    • GoD - the first real klingon fleet to reliably win against federation fleets
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    check your inbox.

    In cruisers or escorts (engineering or tactical) there really isn't much room for creativity that expands in multiple directions. Either you go upwards in healing&survivability/dps (respectively) or your wasting large amounts of potential. Science has the most room to be creative though, since there are many areas that science shines in.

    if you look at the past (pre1.2), people were already popularizing the trends that we see today. No doubt that they will grow and expand into more complex stratagies/builds, but that wasn't the point that I'm trying to make.

    What cryptic should do is work on the endgame pvp. Stuff like automated tournaments, persistant warzones, & PvP rewards (like a fame stick, or hero rank in gw) would go along way towards keeping pvp'rs in the game. Additionally it would give fleets a place to challenge one another, so scrubs can stay in the minor leagues without complaining (although they will)

    pre1.2 people that made stuff famous/popular (seriously, name a trend and I can probably link who started it)
    • Emerald - RSP boat
    • Akumarev - Stunlocking cruiser
    • Ninjaboy - DPS cruiser
    • Faithborn - 5KM limits
    • Fedball - FBP spamming BoP
    • Blackjack - torpedoless escorts/raptors
    • DoB - TSS spamming, ES chains, coordinated spikes, first to get banned from organizedpvp channel
    • Section 31 - 4 cruiser teams.
    • GoD - the first real klingon fleet to reliably win against federation fleets

    Actually, at this point I think Cryptic just needs to work on freaking bugfixes. I have the choice between constant crashes or no sound thanks to running an X64 OS. Since the patch I'm losing my connection almost constantly...logging back in only to be allied to everyone on the map. Still seeing way too many 2v5s.

    Endgame PvP would be cool, but there are still way too many issues with this game technically (and the last patch made it worse for me), to keep me interested. They need to stop with the new features and focus on fixing what they have or they may lose me.

    BTW, sorry for the rant, but I got DCed while leading 11-4 in a 2v4 and I'm in a BAD mood now. :mad:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Actually, at this point I think Cryptic just needs to work on freaking bugfixes. I have the choice between constant crashes or no sound thanks to running an X64 OS. Since the patch I'm losing my connection almost constantly...logging back in only to be allied to everyone on the map. Still seeing way too many 2v5s.

    Endgame PvP would be cool, but there are still way too many issues with this game technically (and the last patch made it worse for me), to keep me interested. They need to stop with the new features and focus on fixing what they have or they may lose me.

    BTW, sorry for the rant, but I got DCed while leading 11-4 in a 2v4 and I'm in a BAD mood now. :mad:

    thats... odd, try adding this "-ignorex64check" to the advancedcommandline option in the startup window (before typing in your password for the first time).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    thats... odd, try adding this "-ignorex64check" to the advancedcommandline option in the startup window (before typing in your password for the first time).

    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

    Post-patch, adding -ignorex64check now causes random crashes every 30 minutes to an hour. Taking it out I have no sound. Doesn't seem to have an effect either way on the DCs. Prepatch I would occasionally get a "Server Not Responding" for a few seconds when zoning. Now at any point (and at least twice a day) I get no lag, no nothing, just an immediate "Disconnected from server".

    But this isn't the forum for this, really. Just had to vent my frustration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    In STO, though, there is very little creativity encouraged simply because each ship gets X BO slots and there are only Y BO abilities that are worthwhile. Damage type doesn't really matter. There's no reason to run anything other than energy type consoles for tactical. There's no real reason to run anything other than +power consoles in engineering slots (except maybe 1 EPS). In the end I think equipment plays a small role on the battlefield. This ends up with cookie cutter setups for each role on the battlefield.

    Unfortunately, if you believe these statements, you are not as creative as you are proclaiming.

    Why do weapon type and energy type consoles have equal values now? What does this allow for that previously was not available?

    Why do you use an EPS console at all?

    Do you really believe all those other ENG consoles that aren't power consoles are not useful? Are you sure?

    Do you PvP successfully at the high level with less than 100 weapon power? You realize you don't even need 100 weapon power anymore to be very successful, right?

    My best damage build in season 1.2, which I am arragant enough to believe could beat you in PvP (or bore you to death), 1) relies on a console other than a power ENG console for success, 2) doesn't use an energy type console 3) requires a specific type of deflector dish, shield type, impulse engine to be successful 4) and leverages 3 BO skills I never used prior to Season 1.2

    As soon as you made excuses for creativity, and presumed to know everything without testing, you proved Faithborn correct.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Unfortunately, if you believe these statements, you are not as creative as you are proclaiming.

    Why do weapon type and energy type consoles have equal values now? What does this allow for that previously was not available?

    It allows for rainbow builds, which a) requires more invesment in skillpoints in energy types thus lessening your ability to train for various support skills in the engineering and operations trees and b) lessens the chance of an individual type of proc occurring. But, hey, variety is the spice of life, right?

    It also allows you to run Directed Energy Distribution Manifolds or Prefire Chambers for no other reason than that's what you want to run. But I don't see a real difference here. For this second argument, Energy type console = Weapon type console if you're running a 1 weapon type 1 energy type build.
    Darksided wrote: »
    Why do you use an EPS console at all?

    I don't...not on my cruiser at least. I did fail to mention SIF Generators, though, which I do use. My bad on that. And I don't use weapons power consoles on my cruiser, either.
    Darksided wrote: »
    Do you PvP successfully at the high level with less than 100 weapon power? You realize you don't even need 100 weapon power anymore to be very successful, right?

    I don't need to run with less than 100 weapon power, but I certainly can. In my sci/escort and tac/BoP I'm primarily focused on damage, so running with less than 125 weapon power is a waste for those roles. In my cruiser I run 100/25/25/50 with an end result of roughly 105/50/50/85 and through several abilities am able to keep my aux power at 115+ almost full time for near full power aux based heals. And, from time to time I've been known to run 95 weapons and 95 aux to get the full 125 for heals. In fact, the cruiser I run is more than capable of running (and I have a power preset for) 125/125/80/125 for brief periods of time.
    Darksided wrote: »
    As soon as you made excuses for creativity, and presumed to know everything without testing, you proved Fborn correct.

    What makes you assume I presumed to know everything without testing? I did extensive testing on Tribble prior to 1.2 going live. In fact, I'd wager I did more testing than 99% of the people who took advantage of Tribble to test. I came up with what I consider to be the best support cruiser build I could. On my own. Without relying on the gods of support cruisers such as faithborn to lead the way for me. Here's the really interesting part: After extensive testing I found I changed 2, yes 2 BO abilities and 3, yes 3 consoles in total from 1.1.

    I also found, in my experience, the following:
    • The shield regen console that did nothing to help your team before still does nothing to help your team.
    • The armor consoles that did nothing to help your team before still do nothing to help your team.
    • The RCS consoles that were useless for cruisers that, with the exception of aceton field, DBBs and in the case of the Battlecruiser DHCs were relatively omnidirectional are still useless. And in fights with groups a cruiser generally shouldn't have any trouble pointing itself in the proper direction without them. The only possible good use I've found for these is for the escort wanting to play the turning game with a BoP or another escort.
    • Sometimes, for ships that move around alot, it is still occasionally useful to run 1 EPS console.
    • It takes either an extremely well timed tricobalt or me making a mistake to take me down 1v1 in my cruiser, despite not jumping on the armor console bandwagon like a lot of other people have and despite only running one copy of RSP.
    • The best way to help your team is by maximizing power either in weapons (escort/DPS cruiser), shield (for cruisers still using Extend Shields) or aux (for CC/hull healing/TSS) or any combination thereof depending on your abilities. Anything less and you're being less than 100% effective in your primary or secondary role.

    And I'm happy to take you on 1v1 anytime so you can teach me lessons about creativity.
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