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Are torpedoes now useless?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Since the last patch, has anyone else noticed their torps aren't connecting near as much? Quite a bit less for me actually.

I'm a tac in an assault cruiser, and I use two forward torps to maintain a steady barrage at the target. This worked extremely well pre-patch. About half my torps would get past their shields. Now I'm lucky to get 1 in 8 through. I've even tried switching to two photons up front, thinking one torp every 3 seconds would be effective, but, even then, it seems about the same number getting through.

Meanwhile, the beam overload-beamboats seem to be able to do more burst damage than I can now.

I'm thinking it has a lot to do with the heal changes. People are having a much easier time keeping their shields up. Couple that with spamming balance shields, and presto, very little torp damage.

I'm debating giving up on torps, it's sad though, I'd hate to see them vanish from pvp.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I've noticed a decrease in torp dmg. Yes, I still see the occasional decent hit.. I suspect, and only suspect that shield repair is so easy that it's hard to get the prepatch unshielded target.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Its likely the shields.... I switched to Chron torps. When they stop someone they take the nice -15 dmg buff. They do almost as much dmg as the Quantums. Also if they stop someone I can get out of ther arc and Cloak Decloak for the extra attack bonus.
    I never thought they where worth switching too before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Torpedoes have always been useless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    wait wait.. I thought you always hummed in combat

    On Quantum
    On Plasma
    On Chrono and Polo

    To the top of the deck! to the top of the bridge!

    Now blow away! blow away! blow away all!"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bostish wrote:
    I've noticed a decrease in torp dmg. Yes, I still see the occasional decent hit.. I suspect, and only suspect that shield repair is so easy that it's hard to get the prepatch unshielded target.
    I think this is the case. Just spamming the distribute shield power key seems to be enough to keep torpedoes from sneaking past the shields now. Virtually the only time they connect is when *all* of the target's shields are down.

    I've had better luck with torpedoes on my Battle Cruiser. That ship is maneuverable enough that I can mount 3 dual beam banks on the front, which is enough energy damage to keep the shields down for the torpedo to hit. I still find all beams to be more effective.

    Right now getting through the shields is the hard part, and any torpedo you carry decreases your damage against shields. While energy weapons aren't great against hulls, they work better against hulls than torpedoes do against shields.

    Torpedoes still seem fine on my BoP and Escort. DHCs are a lot better at keeping shields down than the 2 or 3 measly beam arrays on a cruiser or science ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Man, now I wish I had a combat log parser :)

    I would like to justify not having, or having a torp now.

    Though, I have also grown more favor to Scatter Volley than the upper High Yields. It could be my gut saying.. You see Bost.. You see it man, give it up.. Torps are the new mines. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I like Torpedo Spread II. Sure I could probably find something else, anything else, more useful but I like watching all the torpedoes fly around going boom boom and stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bostish wrote:
    Man, now I wish I had a combat log parser :)

    I would like to justify not having, or having a torp now.

    Though, I have also grown more favor to Scatter Volley than the upper High Yields. It could be my gut saying.. You see Bost.. You see it man, give it up.. Torps are the new mines. :D

    so why don't you?
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/stocombat/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    First, Thank you.. it's like though shall ask, thou receive..

    I didn't see an option to breakdown by type. Maybe i'll fiddle with the logs some and see what i can do..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Miogaruna wrote: »
    Torpedoes have always been useless.

    on escorts and dps characters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ok, so I came up with some results.. I grep'ped out just Quants and then just Phasers
    So what is below, is Total, Phaser Only, Quant Only

    Total Combat
    Out Dmg: 347,466.031
    Out Dps: 613.681
    TDps: 661.21
    of which
    Phasers
    Out Dmg: 292,258.438
    Out Dps: 517.994
    TDps: 556.536

    Quants
    Out Dmg: 43,204.234
    Out Dps: 77.288
    TDps 88.515

    And for grins I looked at someone else who had phasers and quants
    Combined - Out Dps: 308.937
    Phaser - Out Dps: 236.79
    Quant - Out Dps: 57.411

    So give or take some bad math, Qaunts are about 12 to 20% of the DPS
    My current loadout was 3DBB+1Quant and 3BA

    So i guess, it comes down to getting the shields down
    The highest recorded Quant DPS i recorded was Phazed and G'ravel @ 111dps which was only 62k of thier total dmg. I'm going to assume was about 1/5th of theirs too.


    tried Chron Torps aswell (no points applied)
    Total: Out DPS: 857.24
    Phaser: Out DPS: 766.396
    Chron Torp: Out DPS: 68.51

    i know my DPS was higher this time.. I'm more interested in the ratio of damage. between main and torp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Well, that settles it for me, I'm dumping torps.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I don't think there is much harm in spec'ing the first 2 tiers projectile and torpedo.
    But i don't see the value in specializing.
    If you can't rip the shields down, then likewise might as well me murmuring ‘Shaka, when the walls fell’.

    However, to the first point, grouped I think you can be more flexible in Quant, Chron, etc.. Just have it in your inventory.

    When i was running around without a torp, I felt I had several opportunities to put one between the eyes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    No one really noticed, but the devs snuck in a HYT nerf when no one was looking, and didn't put it in the patch notes. Before, HYT use to increase each torpedoes' damage, but now it lowers each individual torpedoes' damage. You still get more damage with HYT, but it's been lowered by about 20-30% from before, roughly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I use to use torps because they look neat and was a sto staple but unfortuntley for a escort all cannons were better at least before the patch, and now it looks that post patch they still stinck cant cryptic get anything right.............
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    No one really noticed, but the devs snuck in a HYT nerf when no one was looking, and didn't put it in the patch notes. Before, HYT use to increase each torpedoes' damage, but now it lowers each individual torpedoes' damage. You still get more damage with HYT, but it's been lowered by about 20-30% from before, roughly.

    Actually mate HYT has always lower each torpedos damage by about 20-30%, at the very least its been doing it since open beta. Of course you still get more damage in total from a HY than a single torp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Although torps don't do as high numbers... there finnishers. I have watched many a pop when a string of my torps hits hull. There a guarentee that some one isn't going to turn and repair a facing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bostish wrote:
    So give or take some bad math, Qaunts are about 12 to 20% of the DPS
    My current loadout was 3DBB+1Quant and 3BA.

    1 out of your 7 slots accounts for 12 to 20% of your damage. That's not that shabby all things considered.

    I'm not so sure Izzx is on the right path abandoning them. The slot certainly holds its own when compared to the other six.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    1 out of your 7 slots accounts for 12 to 20% of your damage. That's not that shabby all things considered.

    I'm not so sure Izzx is on the right path abandoning them. The slot certainly holds its own when compared to the other six.

    Considering the average rear rack of turrets probably accounts for 10-15% of DPS on an escort, a torpedo accounting for 15% of DPS is still rather low considering 3 DHCs then account for 70% of damage. Adding a 4th DHC instead of a torp would still actually increase damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    HYT is one of the last few spikes left...but i understand people have difficulties shooting them manually in the right moment :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Q
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Considering the average rear rack of turrets probably accounts for 10-15% of DPS on an escort,

    That's getting away from Bostish's data and stepping back into theorycraft. Let's stick with Bostish's parses. He's using Dual Beam Banks up front, and Beam Arrays in the back. Turrets should be parsed on their own. Then we can look at what turrets do.

    In Bostish's data, the Torpedoes are holding their own. There's 7 weapon slots.

    And no turrets or Dual Heavy Cannons were measured in the data I read.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I don't know, I kind of feel the opposite about torps. Prior to this patch, I was flying around in an 8-beam cruiser, happily slaughtering any non-RSP'd ship (1200 damage per beam). After the patch I'd be lucky to get 300 damage, so I switched to torps which I'd previously considered useless.

    Torps are still effective, but mostly when used by escorts (HY3) or on escorts (less shield strength). 1v1, cruiser vs cruiser, it comes very much down to luck and the skill of the opposing player to keep his shields up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    i would like to take a moment and clarify any misgivings when it comes to torpedos. I have always used a single Quant Torp Launcher on my fore weapons loadout. The key to torps is knowing when to use them...especially HY Torp.

    There are 2 things to consider when firing torpedos:

    1. Will i be able to get the shield facing down before they hit.
    2. Will i be able to keep that shield facing down in time for them to hit.

    Fortunately, the soloution to both of these queries can be found somewhat easily.

    Firstly, It is absolutely nessecary to have the current sheidl facing to at least <20% before you let torps go. If you are firing your torps after the sheidl facing is at 0% then you are firing too late...you have to fire them so they hit at the exact time the shield facing fails...this takes practice.

    Secondly, its all a matter of timing as stated above....and distance as i will make clear here. One of the biggest mistakes i see alot of people make is firing torps from too far away. The farther torps have to travel to hit your target two things happen. They will lose accuracy, and the target has a great chance of evading the torps.

    I will usually not hit a HY volley unless i am within 3-4 km of someone at the very most. However this raises an interesting problem...at that range how do you get a shield facing down fast enough to fire torps out at exactly the right time without them hitting evasive or something else to get out or defend themselves?

    Interesting question...the answer....for me...is Beam Overload...BO is the only skill i have found that can consistently and reliably take down a shield facing in a single hit. So when i enter that 3km range i will most liekly hit BeamOv coupled with a rapid fire or lately scatter volley...and right behind that is my HY III...at that range it is almost garunteed to hit the hull...and if done right can very easily kill any unsuspecting ship....including healboats (cruisers).

    Torpedos are not useless...as long as you know how to use them correctly. Timing and Spacing are the two most important factors in Torpedo damage.

    Hope this helps.

    Love,

    Xigent
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Forget what i said, went back to beams and they're doing decent damage again. Probably just the players I as up against.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Bostish wrote:
    When i was running around without a torp, I felt I had several opportunities to put one between the eyes.

    I appreciate the work you did compiling the numbers. This here is the feeling that may best me in the end though. So many times I though "If I only had a torpedo" and sometimes I just can't whip around fast enough to fire off the aft quantums. Although, maybe I just need to practice some more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Considering the average rear rack of turrets probably accounts for 10-15% of DPS on an escort, a torpedo accounting for 15% of DPS is still rather low considering 3 DHCs then account for 70% of damage. Adding a 4th DHC instead of a torp would still actually increase damage.

    I do plan on doing Cannon tests on my Klingon Tac. I'll need to make a new BO though, right now I picked Volley III instead of CRFIII (after the patch). Hopefully, I'll have some results of that testing too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Looking at it from the perspective of total damage done is pointless. Torps aren't there for sustained DPS, they're there for burst. Half my kills or more come from High Yield 3 after my energy weapons drain a facing and keep it down. There's so much healing right now that you can't rely on whittling someone down, ever; when a facing drops, you have to do as much damage as possible RIGHT NOW before they take a bunch of heals and hardens.

    Ignoring torps is foolish, most especially on a DPS ship. You can certainly make an all-energy build work, but I don't think you'll have as much success as you expect and I especially don't think it works as well as a build including a torp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Looking at it from the perspective of total damage done is pointless. Torps aren't there for sustained DPS, they're there for burst. Half my kills or more come from High Yield 3 after my energy weapons drain a facing and keep it down. There's so much healing right now that you can't rely on whittling someone down, ever; when a facing drops, you have to do as much damage as possible RIGHT NOW before they take a bunch of heals and hardens.

    Ignoring torps is foolish, most especially on a DPS ship. You can certainly make an all-energy build work, but I don't think you'll have as much success as you expect and I especially don't think it works as well as a build including a torp.

    I don't disagree, I do have data to show how much to who. But overall your correct, torps are generally the kill shot. So, hard to measure it's effectiveness, even if it only caused a total of 40k dmg, if each one was kill or near kill shot. Then that was a good thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Ignoring torps is foolish, most especially on a DPS ship. You can certainly make an all-energy build work, but I don't think you'll have as much success as you expect and I especially don't think it works as well as a build including a torp.
    It sort of depends on what type of ship you have. Maneuverable ships with heavy forward firepower make great use of torpedoes. Less maneuverable ships which rely on broadsides get less value from them. Torpedoes have a narrow arc and need to be timed properly when shields drop, which make them pretty awkward for certain ships.
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