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PvPs New Car Smell, But the Shine Fades Fast

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
While the 'new' system of PvP certainly has folks interested in learning the changes and adapting their character, I am starting to think that once the 'newness' wears off, folks will get bored quicker. Below are my thoughts why the new system is a great foundation for a combat system in STO, but without Tweaks is not good for the health of the PvP community. Time will tell, but I think that time will prove me right in a matter of only a few weeks - and certainly in less than one month.

Pros of the new system:

1) Better technical foundation for combat

2) Broader variety of useful skills combined with cooldown changes has created broader diversity of techniques for gameplay. This does not necessarily translate into PvP success.

Cons of the new system:

1) Ramming Speed is last resort attack tactic in Star Trek, but first the tactical option for most ships to generate burst damage in Star Trek Online. Bumper Cars > DPS

2) Skill has been replaced by zerg. This hampers scalability severely, preventing the game from growing PvP beyond the instanced based set number fights. System prevents a competitive future for an open PvP environment based on objectives, as numbers of players is now the primary driver for victory.

3) A system heavily focused on offense was replaced by a system heavily focused on defense. The reputation of Cryptic to approach every problem as a nail requiring the sledgehammer solution is well earned. Tweaks are necessary, another major revamp is not.

4) Terrible players are now even worse (this is a vast majority of the population), and organized players are now far superior than before (vast minority of the players). In the past, a player who was otherwise a terrible teammate could at least destroy one ship without ramming speed, thus contribute in some small way. Today, that player is still a terrible teammate and can no longer destroy even a single ship alone.

Any player who attempts to PvP solo without a regular group and still expect to win is a fool. The system makes the lone fighter the weak link - the reason any team should lose every match.

5) The massive reduction of threat from any single ship has severely impacted gameplay, and in my opinion, removed the "risk" from PvP to the point that PvP in the game is less fun. There is no room in the current system for individual excellence in DPS, rather every match is determined by the individual excellence of healing. When there are multiple people demonstrating individual excellence in healing, even the most excellent DPS centric players have a snowballs chance in hell of winning.

---

I like the technicals and foundation of the new system over the old system, but gameplay in the new system is less fun for me than the old system. Every kill is a concentrated and coordinated gank, and there is no room for individual excellence by any individual player in overcoming a coordinated attack by multiple people except through the sheer luck of a high crit ramming strike.

There is nothing in STO for a PvPer like me anymore, because there is no way for me to work hard enough to make myself individually better than any other individual. My engineer healer puts out nearly 200K in self heals every 90 seconds, making me invulnerable to any individual in the game - as in there is nothing that can counter balance my build and add risk to the healer playstyle. The advantage of the old system is that it was at least possible for me to die to another single player - even if the ways I would sometime die were completely rediculous. The other system also worked well in that I could at least kill every type of player solo, but in the new system this is impossible against certain opponents without ramming them for a super lucy crit. I pose no risk, nor feel no risk, unless I outnumbered by my opponents or outrnumbering my opponents. The patch has made us all the same, which is to say none of us are special.

Who wants to play a game where the designed intent is for the ceiling to also be the average? This is the crux of my problem with the new system - there is no room in the system for individual talent, only teamwork AND even that is dependent entirely on even teams.

Bottom line, PvP simply isn't as fun now in my opinion because of reduced risk in gameplay and a future that looks bleak due to the overwhelming influence of numbers on the game today. It makes for a PvP system that only scales to the advantage of the big, not the good.

I appreciate the help of the premade PvP groups (DoB/TTT/182/etc) I fought over the weekend. It really helped me tweak my build and understand the details of this patch.

I only hope Cryptic adds risk back to the game, because it is the risk that anyone could kill you in PvP that made the competition fun. In the existing limited, non-objective based PvP system, other than the value of "new" there isn't much to find entertaining for the individual - as everything special that happens in PvP is either pure luck from a Ram or part of the power of gank.

The value of being able to achieve individual kills through a smart, focused DPS strategy in the old system cannot be underestimated as important part of PvP that STO has lost - because it is what allowed for a future open PvP system that was less dependent upon numbers for success - unlike the new system. Surely there is a way to bring some of that back in the new system without bumping crit damage up to the previously insane level of damage.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »

    4) Terrible players are now even worse (this is a vast majority of the population), and organized players are now far superior than before (vast minority of the players). In the past, a player who was otherwise a terrible teammate could at least destroy one ship without ramming speed, thus contribute in some small way. Today, that player is still a terrible teammate and can no longer destroy even a single ship alone.

    How is this a bad thing.. No amount of nerfs/balancing will help bad players. You could give us all paper ships and wet noodles for weapons and a better player will still beat poor ones 98% of the time. To try and balance a game over poor players is a poor idea PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Badlander wrote: »
    How is this a bad thing.. No amount of nerfs/balancing will help bad players. You could give us all paper ships and wet noodles for weapons and a better player will still beat poor ones 98% of the time. To try and balance a game over poor players is a poor idea PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Good question. I agree no amount of nerfs/balancing will influence individual abilities over time. I am not suggesting balancing the technicals of the game to give advantage to individuals - indeed I feel that is part of the mistake with the new system. Gameplay must be balanced in favor of offense - not defense, because if the system favors defense over offense - it will hurt the community over time.

    When a PvP game is balanced in favor of offense, there are winners and losers. When a PvP game is balanced in favor of defense, you create a third condition - no winners. The lack of winning and losing reduces the ability of a good player to be good and the bad player to be bad. In other words, the new system that favors defense over offense is attempting to do exactly what you say shouldn't be done - it makes the game individually easier for bad players.

    It will fail over time. The mistake Cryptic has made is to adjust gameplay towards the existing PvP community without also examining how this will grow the PvP community. By focusing the new system away from individual excellence and towards team excellence, how does the community grow?

    One would have to argue the amazing fleet system in STO will attract players if you believe the team system will work, but there is no such thing as an amazing fleet system in this game. Indeed, there isn't a single activity in the game that is fleet centric.

    What existing MMO has ever significantly grown after release by attracting large groups of people? For that matter, what online community of any kind has ever grown by attracting 'groups of people'? The answer is none. The few games that did grow after the initial release period grew because the games became attractive to large numbers of individuals. How will STO attract individuals to PvP when they have taken individuality out of PvP? How does a game where the best anyone can individually be is average hold appeal to individuals?

    Right now, the 'new car smell' is holding individual attention. How long before that wears off?

    I don't believe Cryptic has an answer for that. They understand the method though, customizations for individuals is a primary focus in Cryptics development of STO outside of PvP - which for me has been a sign they recognized the importance of player individuality in MMOs. In PvP games, individuality means a lot - but the new system is intended to make everyone average.

    It is very hard to sell "Come PvP in STO so you too can be as average as everyone else!" Under the old system, even bad players could achieve individual success. That element of individual capability through hard work made the previous system attractive to new gamers. I have a hard time seeing how the new system is going to attract new gamers, or how any system that doesn't reward excellence and effort as an advantage is going to produce growth.

    We all know teams will always be better than individuals - and should always be. That is not the point, the point is that individualism matters a great deal in ALL MMO games. Cryptic knows this, look at how much time and effort they spend allowing for individuality in every aspect of the game - except the new PvP system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I agree to your second post here in the fact Cryptic has to do something. The main part is they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Who do they please? The hardcore pvper or the i want to be uber but i suck at pvp ppl.

    Look at games like WOW. They nerf/beef up this and that and the forums are still full of ppl not happy over pvp. Blizz has had years to tweek pvp and......:( The winners will always be happy and the losers will always be IT can't be me for why I lose in pvp. So they run to the forums and cry nerf.

    Now i am not saying things do not need tweeking, but who does Cryptic listen to when it comes to those tweeks?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I think allot of the reaction to 1.2 is overblown. Cryptic changed the game tons no doubt. However over the last few days I'm noticing the best players are finding ways to win... and the poor players are pretty much the fodder they where before. The first day of the patch some people where living much longer then they where before... as the days go on I'm noticing that less.
    I have been in a few pug matches now with some good players testing there tweeks, and burst kills are back.
    The weak players still pop fast... they just have an extrra 2 seconds to do something about it now.

    What 1.2 has done has given the best players godly heals... and if you play with a few new powers they really havn't taken the burst from anyone either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    For the most part I agree with the OP. I was not a fan of boosting healing while nerfing burst damage at the same time. I think we would have been better served to do one then the other if needed. The ramming speed is so out of control that whoever though of reducing the cd timer should be fired. Last night I was in a semi organized cp where the chain rams became the attack of choice....it's lame. While I agree with the claim that bad players are even worse off with this patch I would be a bit more specific. Crappy Engineer pilots in Cruisers can be somewhat effective just because a monkey can play one right now and pretty much stay alive. However, if you sucked as a Tac in an escort/BoP before the patch you probably suck even more now. Yea you might live a bit longer but your dps most likely went in the crapper. To a point now where you are effectively a liability to your group even more then you were pre-patch.


    As for myself I'm adapting and figuring out new weapon setups and builds. I'm not crazy about the changes but I think -GoD- will be fine. I'm just waiting for the next round of nerf cries to start, I'm guessing in about a week or two.

    Blackjack
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Cryptic should study what makes competition successful, and avoid opinion and speculation.

    Competitive games that have winners and losers are more popular than games that do not. There WILL BE a winner of the World Cup, because soccer would not be the most popular game in the world if there were no winners or losers. When the NHL was suffering from a large number of ties, they implemented a tie breaking system to determine a winner. This patch is the opposite of that approach.

    For example, Vlad I have played you many dozens of times in game. Under the old patch, if your Fed escort was competing against my battlecruiser at a random flag in Cap&Hold, either of us had a chance of defeating the other. The problem with the old system was that the chance of winning and losing was random - based largely on crit chance and crit damage. However, in those matches each of us could skillfully maneuver our ship into position to open up the opportunity to increase our chances for success without having to rely on random crit damage bonuses. The reason was because when in good position, we could burst offense at a greater intensity than the other could burst defense.

    Under the new system, I am unsure if I could kill your Escort, but it is an unfortunate fact you will never defeat my battlecruiser 1v1 in a Cap&Hold match again without super random luck of a ramming speed maneuver. I heal nearly 200K every 90 seconds, and your escort can neither deal enough damage over time to overcome that, nor burst enough damage in the limited amount of time to prevent that.

    In the new system, my Engineer in a cruiser is overpowered relative to you because the mechanics do not allow you to produce enough damage to win without ramming speed - the only burst damage of consequence in the new system. My Engineer suffers from the same issue of limited offense to some degree, except that I can sustain enough damage over time to kill you - your only chance being you can run away to recharge outside my range.

    That leaves us at a perpetual draw.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Husanak wrote: »
    I think allot of the reaction to 1.2 is overblown. Cryptic changed the game tons no doubt. However over the last few days I'm noticing the best players are finding ways to win... and the poor players are pretty much the fodder they where before. The first day of the patch some people where living much longer then they where before... as the days go on I'm noticing that less.
    I have been in a few pug matches now with some good players testing there tweeks, and burst kills are back.

    I would disagree with you. After the last major revamp, over time people learned to become better damage dealers. Why? Because the biggest changes were to DPS, and it took time for everyone to learn how to be more effective at DPS.

    The result was that over time, matches got shorter and damage totals grew larger as people figured out the system.

    This time, all the major changes are related to healing. There is no upside to DPS after this patch, what you see now is as good as it gets. All of the upside for players getting better under the new system is in healing.

    That would suggest that over time, people will figure out how to use the new healing skills, and matches will grow even longer than they already are as people learn to live. There is no upside for offense, only defense, because there have been no changes to offense that players would have to learn and adapt to - offense simply got nerfed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    The other system also worked well in that I could at least kill every type of player solo, but in the new system this is impossible against certain opponents without ramming them for a super lucy crit. I pose no risk, nor feel no risk, unless I outnumbered by my opponents or outrnumbering my opponents.
    I mostly agree with you, but I wonder how much of that perception comes from being a cruiser captain?

    I used to consider myself a pretty good healer. The patch didn't do anything to make healing weaker, and it put some variety into healing instead of pretty much just using ET III whenever it was available, but I'm finding there isn't nearly as much need for healing. Even escorts usually don't need to be rescued right this second anymore. My healing number are a lot lower in many matches because I simply don't need to heal as frantically to keep people alive.

    I don't think one of my cruisers has died more than twice in a PvP match since the patch. Usually I don't die at all, win or lose. I've been in several fights with other cruisers that ended in draws, and not one fight with even numbers of cruisers that resulted in a win or loss. I don't usually bother with any defense other than distributing shield power unless I'm taking cannon fire or getting hit by beams from several enemies.

    I've got tier 2 and tier 4 tac/escorts that still feel right. And when I fight escorts or BoPs in my cruisers those fights still feel right -- both parties can actually be a threat to one another. But matched against any other sort of ship the fight is stagnant and dull.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Under the new system, I am unsure if I could kill your Escort, but it is an unfortunate fact you will never defeat my battlecruiser 1v1 in a Cap&Hold match again without super random luck of a ramming speed maneuver. I heal nearly 200K every 90 seconds, and your escort can neither deal enough damage over time to overcome that, nor burst enough damage in the limited amount of time to prevent that.

    In the new system, my Engineer in a cruiser is overpowered relative to you because the mechanics do not allow you to produce enough damage to win without ramming speed - the only burst damage of consequence in the new system. My Engineer suffers from the same issue of limited offense to some degree, except that I can sustain enough damage over time to kill you - your only chance being you can run away to recharge outside my range.

    That leaves us at a perpetual draw.
    I don't really know if an escort could never beat a battlecruiser now. In a team vs. team fight the escort is still a threat. I had kind of assumed that 1-1 the escort might have a shot at winning, but so far I can't remember a cruiser vs. escort fight which ended decisively -- the fight always last long enough that help arrives or the escort runs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    inktomi19d wrote: »
    I used to consider myself a pretty good healer. The patch didn't do anything to make healing weaker, and it put some variety into healing instead of pretty much just using ET III whenever it was available, but I'm finding there isn't nearly as much need for healing.

    I was thinking the same as you until I was able to join up with my fleet and play against DOB and TTT w/ Faithborn in 5v5s on Saturday night.

    After those matches, I realized what I had been missing. If an Engineer in a Cruiser is getting less total healing than the top damage dealer is getting damaeg in a Cap and Hold - you are not optimized yet for the new patch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    I was thinking the same as you until I was able to join up with my fleet and play against DOB and TTT w/ Faithborn in 5v5s on Saturday night.

    After those matches, I realized what I had been missing. If an Engineer in a Cruiser is getting less healing than the top damage dealer on both sides in a Cap and Hold - you are not optimized yet for the new patch.
    How often do you get to face serious teams though? On the Fed side it's pretty normal for everyone to have 100k or more healing, which really cuts into the work a "healer" has to do.

    My Klink is still much more healing focussed honestly. Klingon ships are more frail overall, a smaller portion of the Klingon fleet seem to be cruisers, and BoPs are not only the most fragile thing in the game but the universal BO stations allow them to run without any engineers at all. The Klingons just need a little more healing.

    On the Fed side I still run into the big "why bother?" when it comes to healing. I still occasionally have to jack up my Aux to pull someone out of a pinch, but mostly I was getting really bored when I was putting all my effort into healing the way I used to.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    MajorFury wrote: »
    For the most part I agree with the OP. I was not a fan of boosting healing while nerfing burst damage at the same time. I think we would have been better served to do one then the other if needed. The ramming speed is so out of control that whoever though of reducing the cd timer should be fired. Last night I was in a semi organized cp where the chain rams became the attack of choice....it's lame. While I agree with the claim that bad players are even worse off with this patch I would be a bit more specific. Crappy Engineer pilots in Cruisers can be somewhat effective just because a monkey can play one right now and pretty much stay alive. However, if you sucked as a Tac in an escort/BoP before the patch you probably suck even more now. Yea you might live a bit longer but your dps most likely went in the crapper. To a point now where you are effectively a liability to your group even more then you were pre-patch.


    As for myself I'm adapting and figuring out new weapon setups and builds. I'm not crazy about the changes but I think -GoD- will be fine. I'm just waiting for the next round of nerf cries to start, I'm guessing in about a week or two.

    Blackjack

    nerf blackjack
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    MajorFury wrote: »
    For the most part I agree with the OP. I was not a fan of boosting healing while nerfing burst damage at the same time. I think we would have been better served to do one then the other if needed. The ramming speed is so out of control that whoever though of reducing the cd timer should be fired. Last night I was in a semi organized cp where the chain rams became the attack of choice....it's lame. While I agree with the claim that bad players are even worse off with this patch I would be a bit more specific. Crappy Engineer pilots in Cruisers can be somewhat effective just because a monkey can play one right now and pretty much stay alive. However, if you sucked as a Tac in an escort/BoP before the patch you probably suck even more now. Yea you might live a bit longer but your dps most likely went in the crapper. To a point now where you are effectively a liability to your group even more then you were pre-patch.


    As for myself I'm adapting and figuring out new weapon setups and builds. I'm not crazy about the changes but I think -GoD- will be fine. I'm just waiting for the next round of nerf cries to start, I'm guessing in about a week or two.

    Blackjack

    I assume you're referring to our encounters last night.

    The problem is a cruiser really has no other way to apply burst damage. Hell, we had a lot of fun going up against you guys last night (props to GoD for being insanely talented). I'm sure a couple of our chain rams ****ed you and Santa off a little, but I think we were 4 cruisers and a sci. We had absolutely no other way to take you guys down before you had a chance to escape. Even SNBs to strip your RSPs were simply countered by ST, EPtS, and whatever else was necessary to keep you alive long enough to EM out far enough to cloak and start the process over again. Tractors weren't doing the trick. We didn't have much in the way of BTSE (except for the one sci ship), but even someone with BTSE 3 is now easily countered by an ET. The only 2 things I can think of now to stop a hit and run BoP/Raptor is a stun (photonic shockwave/tricobalt) mid EM or an SNB mid EM.

    And this is one of the problems I'm really seeing come to light with this patch. Yeah, the escorts/raptors/BoPs are feeling a pinch when it comes to lower alpha, but even a group of cruisers and science ships are now simply completely incapable of taking down even a single raptor or BoP unless the raptor/BoP makes a mistake, the raptor/BoP pilot is less than capable, or the cruiser/sci gets a well timed ram in. I know this because after our matches I logged in my klink and used your tactics and in several CP matches wasn't taken down even once. I haven't done as much FvF as FvK post patch, but I'd assume the escort is in the same boat.

    And, yeah, GoD is adapting to the changes. There are bits and pieces of my cruiser floating around CP to prove it. And I'm adapting, too. I'm just trying to figure out how you guys get such massive damage out of the new uberability. I've been experimenting with setups in my BoP and I'm not having nearly as much success. But props to you guys for getting it figured out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Zorena wrote:
    nerf blackjack

    Oh yeah, I forgot to include my nerf cry. Nerf blackjack...and santa. They're evil people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    And this is one of the problems I'm really seeing come to light with this patch. Yeah, the escorts/raptors/BoPs are feeling a pinch when it comes to lower alpha, but even a group of cruisers and science ships are now simply completely incapable of taking down even a single raptor or BoP unless the raptor/BoP makes a mistake, the raptor/BoP pilot is less than capable, or the cruiser/sci gets a well timed ram in. I know this because after our matches I logged in my klink and used your tactics and in several CP matches wasn't taken down even once. I haven't done as much FvF as FvK post patch, but I'd assume the escort is in the same boat.

    I decoded to log in my fed today and play with the escort. Honestly with the new changes the BOP is far better. The BOPs ability to run a Engineer LT. Commander make it a great little ship. I run a LT CMD on my bop and take DEM II... and then I have 2 more healing slots. On my escort I had to chose... be able to tank the sheilds a bit or be able to heal/resist my hull. The BOP can do both and still run a wicked burst.

    Ohh and someone mentioned the N word.... I played a late night scrub last night and was teamed with Blackjack... that guy does deserve one. lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    This patch has gone in the opposite direction of what is supposed to fix, I still see RSP stacking somehow, I won't go into the RSP CD that makes RSP available almost immediately after use. The ramming is becoming the FOTM type ability, I get rammed constantly by at least 3 ships every time I am in combat. In a 5 v 5 cracked I am getting 500K damage in CP with 3 kills where before I was getting 10 with 250K in damage. I keep seeing teams lead by escort spamming scatter volley while they have 2 ES on the escort with HE. So if you concentrate on the Escort good luck if you switch to a healer good luck. Team play has denegrated to death by a thousand paper cuts with one steak knife. I am a tac captain in a cruiser, while survivability is nice I might as well throw spit wads out the airlock at eng/cruiser or eng/sci. The Aux spiking is is unbelievable to the point that BTA is a useless skill. I know I will get the L2P or adapt dogma. I know I am not the greatest Tac/Cruiser out there, I think I am pretty damn good and this latest patch has me befuddled I can't take down a decent eng/cruiser build. Many on this board have said that no ship should survive if focused by 5 ships, I know see escorts surviving with 5+ ships focusing it. The simplest fix to the previous setup was to put in a hard cap and floor to energy and do away with the stacking of abilites like BT(X) and group stacking of AP:B. Instead we get this monstrosity where you need more luck then skill to destroy a ship with a decent build. This patch, like a previous poster has stated, turned great healers into gods, and decent healers into awesome healers with little needed to improve ones setup where as DPS has been relegated into the extremes, BOv III and Scatter Volley. Scatter Volley does more damage now then CRF 3 did and we wont go into BOv III and the torp trick, that is still around.

    Either way I refuse to start over so I will continue to play my dailies and wait for more STFs or another patch that swings the balance more towards the middle. Until then I will only PvP on my dailies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I assume you're referring to our encounters last night.

    The problem is a cruiser really has no other way to apply burst damage. Hell, we had a lot of fun going up against you guys last night (props to GoD for being insanely talented). I'm sure a couple of our chain rams ****ed you and Santa off a little, but I think we were 4 cruisers and a sci. We had absolutely no other way to take you guys down before you had a chance to escape. Even SNBs to strip your RSPs were simply countered by ST, EPtS, and whatever else was necessary to keep you alive long enough to EM out far enough to cloak and start the process over again. Tractors weren't doing the trick. We didn't have much in the way of BTSE (except for the one sci ship), but even someone with BTSE 3 is now easily countered by an ET. The only 2 things I can think of now to stop a hit and run BoP/Raptor is a stun (photonic shockwave/tricobalt) mid EM or an SNB mid EM.

    And this is one of the problems I'm really seeing come to light with this patch. Yeah, the escorts/raptors/BoPs are feeling a pinch when it comes to lower alpha, but even a group of cruisers and science ships are now simply completely incapable of taking down even a single raptor or BoP unless the raptor/BoP makes a mistake, the raptor/BoP pilot is less than capable, or the cruiser/sci gets a well timed ram in. I know this because after our matches I logged in my klink and used your tactics and in several CP matches wasn't taken down even once. I haven't done as much FvF as FvK post patch, but I'd assume the escort is in the same boat.

    And, yeah, GoD is adapting to the changes. There are bits and pieces of my cruiser floating around CP to prove it. And I'm adapting, too. I'm just trying to figure out how you guys get such massive damage out of the new uberability. I've been experimenting with setups in my BoP and I'm not having nearly as much success. But props to you guys for getting it figured out.

    I've run into a few Cruisers who actually pump out some pretty damn good damage while being able to hang in a fight for a very long time. Granted it might not be huge spike damage but everyones spike damage has been nerfed. 4 cruisers and 1 Science obviously is not an ideal set-up just like us not having any healers in that fight was either. I guess that is why it lasted such a long time but goes to show that a mixed group is ideal as always. I am laughing at some of the people who have actually come out crying that damage is still too high. Guys if it got any damn lower we might as well just declare a truce and go have Woodstock on Risa. Seriously, it might be time to ask for some help from some of the respected PvP'ers in game on ways to improve instead of blaming the game for your failures.

    Blackjack
    P.S. dont nerf me....nerf Santa
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    MajorFury wrote: »
    P.S. dont nerf me....nerf Santa

    nerf both of them, *blindly swings the nerf-bat inside of the GoD ventrilo channel*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    MajorFury wrote: »
    Seriously, it might be time to ask for some help from some of the respected PvP'ers in game on ways to improve instead of blaming the game for your failures.

    Amen. If someone is not having success in PvP, the starting point for addressing that problem is recognition it is the player that is the problem.

    Once you do that, you'll be ready to listen to the advice that is constantly being put on these forums - some of which is very useful.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Amen. If someone is not having success in PvP, the starting point for addressing that problem is recognition it is the player that is the problem.

    Once you do that, you'll be ready to listen to the advice that is constantly being put on these forums - some of which is very useful.

    If players are still having issues with pvp, they said players need to try playing pvp at a lower ranking then Rear Admiral until such time as they can play with the "big boys" so to speak. There is no loss of "face" in doing this as one must walk before one can run.

    This leads to my second point; All the existing gripes still sound as if they are coming from RA levels of PvP and don't seem to be as much of a problem as one goes into the lower level pvp ques. Maybe, just maybe, the changes need to be done at the RA levels only this next time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I think you kind of hit the nail right on the head. Lots of people are doing like I did, level through PvE, get bored, try PvP, get pwned. I still think that rather than making too many more changes people should take the burden of learning upon themselves and enroll a character to bring it up through the ranks of PvP.

    Experience is the best teacher.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Wow....just wow. Where were all these opinions that "the player is the problem" and that people "leveling through PvE" are the issue two weeks ago? Organized fleets and high-level PvP'ers have been saying this for months yet have been shouted down as "elitist" or "e-peen stroking" by the community.

    Now people are starting to realize the truth...that no amount of nerfs or DEV assistance is going to make poor players any better. It's only handicapping and disappointing the high-end players. We just got done with a major wave of nerfs, changes, power rewrites, and game mechanic switches yet already there are multi-page posts asking for more nerfs and changes?!

    The magical balance of power upheaval that many low-end PvP players were hoping for has not...and probably will never...materialized as a result of Cryptics actions. The good PvP teams are still good. The poor PvP players and uncoordinated fleets/teams are still bad. There are always methods employed to assist and assure victory. Good players seek them out and refine them until perfected. Take away BTSS? No problem...eat a triple Beta stack. Bad players? They whine and cry for nerfs and when they get them they find the next best thing and cry for nerfs there as well.

    The truly sad part of it all is that Cryptic actually listens to them... :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Badlander wrote: »
    How is this a bad thing.. No amount of nerfs/balancing will help bad players. You could give us all paper ships and wet noodles for weapons and a better player will still beat poor ones 98% of the time. To try and balance a game over poor players is a poor idea PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    As someone who doesn't pvp (but who has in other games) i have a partial answer to this. Terrible doesn't just have to be because someone is genuinely bad. It's a pretty liberally thrown around label which can also land on players who are new to this games pvp and trying to get a handle on things and may not yet have the perfect pvp set up or experience that comes with actual pvp in the game.

    So if someone in that situation is discouraged because they're underperforming then it's entirely possible they mauy just opt out of giving pvp a reasonable try thus shrinking the pvp "pool" of players for matches.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    If players are still having issues with pvp, they said players need to try playing pvp at a lower ranking then Rear Admiral until such time as they can play with the "big boys" so to speak. There is no loss of "face" in doing this as one must walk before one can run.

    This leads to my second point; All the existing gripes still sound as if they are coming from RA levels of PvP and don't seem to be as much of a problem as one goes into the lower level pvp ques. Maybe, just maybe, the changes need to be done at the RA levels only this next time.
    I might have missed something, but I don't think the thread was about people being unsuccessful in PvP. The complaint was that it's gone a lot more towards "nobody wins, nobody loses, nothing happens".

    I honestly don't think there is a chance of my cruiser losing a fight to a single ship -- I might not win, but I'm definitely not going to lose. Usually I'm not in serious trouble until I have 3 or more ships firing on me. I'm not a great player, I get lazy, I don't always pay attention, I crash into stuff and get stuck while I'm watching behind me, but even with how much I suck the risk of losing has pretty much gone.

    I think the complaint is that the game is too easy if anything. If you happen to get stuck in a cruiser vs. cruiser fight, you might as well be playing tic-tac-toe. The only way for anyone to win or lose that fight is if one player is extremely bad. Not just a little bad, but extremely bad.

    Learning or adapting won't help because the problem is that players don't lose, not that they're losing too much.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    BountyXP wrote: »
    Wow....just wow. Where were all these opinions that "the player is the problem" and that people "leveling through PvE" are the issue two weeks ago? Organized fleets and high-level PvP'ers have been saying this for months yet have been shouted down as "elitist" or "e-peen stroking" by the community.

    Now people are starting to realize the truth...that no amount of nerfs or DEV assistance is going to make poor players any better. It's only handicapping and disappointing the high-end players. We just got done with a major wave of nerfs, changes, power rewrites, and game mechanic switches yet already there are multi-page posts asking for more nerfs and changes?!
    Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    inktomi19d wrote: »
    I might have missed something, but I don't think the thread was about people being unsuccessful in PvP. The complaint was that it's gone a lot more towards "nobody wins, nobody loses, nothing happens".

    I honestly don't think there is a chance of my cruiser losing a fight to a single ship -- I might not win, but I'm definitely not going to lose. Usually I'm not in serious trouble until I have 3 or more ships firing on me. I'm not a great player, I get lazy, I don't always pay attention, I crash into stuff and get stuck while I'm watching behind me, but even with how much I suck the risk of losing has pretty much gone.

    I think the complaint is that the game is too easy if anything. If you happen to get stuck in a cruiser vs. cruiser fight, you might as well be playing tic-tac-toe. The only way for anyone to win or lose that fight is if one player is extremely bad. Not just a little bad, but extremely bad.

    Learning or adapting won't help because the problem is that players don't lose, not that they're losing too much.

    My original post was in agreement with DARKSIDED assesment that when a player states " I'm not getting/having fun/ or pvp is too difficult" then the Dev's/player in question needs to look to the players skills with pvp first and possibly said player should possibly start pvp in a lower ranking first to build said skills.

    I was not commenting towards cruiser play in PvP, though I do feel that the "self-healing" ability of cruisers need to be riegned in about 25% to keep fights from being too long.
    Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?

    I have always felt that the claims of PvP being out of balanced partially hung on the experience of players who had know history with or enough player expeience with pvp, and thus was skewed data.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Two cents:
    1] Ramming Speed sucks, is overused, and needs to be restricted to low-hull conditions.

    2] 5 Cruisers v 5 Cruisers takes a loooong time....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Naevius wrote:
    Two cents:
    1] Ramming Speed sucks, is overused, and needs to be restricted to low-hull conditions.

    2] 5 Cruisers v 5 Cruisers takes a loooong time....

    (1) Ramming speed should only be able to be activated when your ship has 25% or below hull left imo. That would be both realistic and balancing.

    (2) Indeed lol, Woe betide anyone who fights this in a deathmatch arena.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Maybe the opinion have changed because the situation has changed? Because the claims that the game is broken can no longer be substantiated as well as they could before? Because people that used to have problems before now no longer have them?

    Exactly my point. For those forum QQ'ers the situation has changed. The supposedly "flawed" game mechanic rationale is no longer present. So now what's the excuse? The same players/fleets who dominated before 1.2 and before 1.1 and during opening release and in Beta are still dominating now. The same people who littered space with the debris of their exploding ships still die and play miserably.

    Cryptic has obliged these clowns with endless changes in a misguided attempt to desperately hold on to their last 80k paying subscribers and have them magically turn a blind eye to the woeful lack of end-game content. First they cried about FBP/SNB/VM. Boom...nerf bat came down. Then they complained about BTSS and "exploits" and boom...the nerf bat came down. Then they complained of being "one-shotted" and escorts doing too much damage and...boom...the nerf bat has come down. If they ever do make the mistake of listening to these people again and nerfing RSP or APB or other skills then what will be the next power targeted? Anything another player can use to an advantage over them draws their ire and repeated forum posts filled with nerf cries.

    In the end those players simply are poor PvP'ers. The rest of us have been shouting it from the rooftops for months. Letting you know this exact scenario was going to play itself out. That the "mechanics" were fine. It was the player base that was the issue. A bunch of Captain Kirk's who are either role-playing or PVE'ing their way through the game and then step into PvP expecting to dominate. There are those that take PvP seriously. Those that look at it as a challenge. Those that join competitive fleets to hone their craft and maximize their gameplay. Those that use dedicated voice communications to eek out every ounce of team cohesion and synergy. The forum QQ'ers will never match up with that...no matter how many nerfs Cryptic throws their way.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Roach wrote: »
    I have always felt that the claims of PvP being out of balanced partially hung on the experience of players who had no history with or enough player expeience with pvp, and thus was skewed data.

    Quote for truth, my man...
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