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PVP for escorts is kinda frustrating after 1.2

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I usally dps pretty high. Near the top in most matches. This has not changed. What has changed is the K/D ratio. I am dying alot more and killing far less. The reason is evident when you look at the totals on healing. Sci ships and cruisers are healing like crazy. Some players that are speced for healing are nearly impossible to take down. I do the damage but they heal right through it.One sci ship had nearly a million in healing in one match. No one on the other team had near a million in damage. That means that that one player healed through our combined damage. Unfair. I understand that escorts took a nerf in the last patch, but did the other classes of ships get better healing abilities. If this is the case, then this is out of wack.
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    May I suggest re-evaluating your own self-healing abilities?

    I usually have about a 4/1 or 5/1 kill-to-death ratio on a bad day.
    Last match I had 28 kills, 2 deaths.

    I don't always do so well, but regardless this is my tactical escort sci and eng power choice and console choice incase it helps in some way;

    Eng Officer; Eng Team I and RSP II
    Sci Officer; Sci Team I and Hazard Emitters II

    Sci Consoles; two green uncommon halon systems
    Eng Consoles; 1 green uncommon alloy, 1 green uncommon shield power setting booster.

    Its the best eng/sci component/power build I've personally found for a tac (defiant) escort for pure survival so far......
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I heal fine, have two engineering teams, hazard emmiters and sci team. That gives me quite a bit of healing. The problem is my target selection i think. Before I could take down any ship relativly quickly, now I will have to pick and choose. I am beginning to develop a list of the flavor of the month players, I will just avoid them and pick off their help. Then, once we have them isolated, we will group up on them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    I heal fine, have two engineering teams, hazard emmiters and sci team. That gives me quite a bit of healing. The problem is my target selection i think. Before I could take down any ship relativly quickly, now I will have to pick and choose. I am beginning to develop a list of the flavor of the month players, I will just avoid them and pick off their help. Then, once we have them isolated, we will group up on them.

    that's called tactics.
    and why you are called a tactical officer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    no it is called goofy. My ship should be able to handle any ship in the game. As it currently sits, there are more ships out there that can just spam heal themselves and not fight. That is not fun to me. I can't see how they think it is fun. Perhaps they do think it is fun and they are just morons. Either way I wouldnt call it tactics. It is just me doing whatever I can to have fun within a broken PVP system. You call it whatever you want. Hopefully Cryptic will fix it soon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    no it is called goofy. My ship should be able to handle any ship in the game. As it currently sits, there are more ships out there that can just spam heal themselves and not fight. That is not fun to me. I can't see how they think it is fun. Perhaps they do think it is fun and they are just morons. Either way I wouldnt call it tactics. It is just me doing whatever I can to have fun within a broken PVP system. You call it whatever you want. Hopefully Cryptic will fix it soon.

    well then escort mite not be your forte, or you mite need to rethink your skill set. fact is a lot of people
    ( including escort captains) like the new changes. but part of being powerful in an MMO is being able to adapt tow hat changes, because no matter what MMo you play their will always be a change .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Not my forte, are you serious?

    Before I respond to that stupid comment, i checked you out in some of the other threads. It seems that your saying simlar things to other people who don't like the changes. Just because I am complaining about this nerf...and it is a nerf, does not mean I don't know how to play an escort class. I am still out DPSing everyone. I can likely out DPS you. So don't make assumptions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    Not my forte, are you serious?

    Before I respond to that stupid comment, i checked you out in some of the other threads. It seems that your saying simlar things to other people who don't like the changes. Just because I am complaining about this nerf...and it is a nerf, does not mean I don't know how to play an escort class. I am still out DPSing everyone. I can likely out DPS you. So don't make assumptions.

    good to see I'm not the only one who has made that observation ... nicely done !
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Why should you beat someone who is specced for healing as much as you are for DPS?

    Seriously, on my science ship I run full aux for my healing setup which means I don't do any damage worth writing home about. I can only kill escorts one on one with photonic fleet and some luck. Cruisers and science ships? Forget it.

    This is a team game. I know most people don't play that way, but yes you need to work as a team, target assist your teammates. It also means stick with them and don't be a lone wolf. It means if they have great healers, you need to figure out a strategy to split them up, and/or put enough pressure on the healer so they stop healing the team and heal themselves. There is more to the game than healing and DPS.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    no it is called goofy. My ship should be able to handle any ship in the game

    Sure, it could handle every ship, but it will not handle every player. This is just the nature of the thing. Sometimes you are going to come across somebody you can't beat. Sometimes you will be the guy somebody else cannot beat.

    That is just how it works.

    I have been playing a cruiser since Closed Beta. It is not a FOTM for me. I have run across some escorts that can rip me a new one, if I don't give them my full attention 100% of the time, even after 1.2

    Look at this score. The player named Henry on the opposing side was FANTASTIC. The only reason he died a lot was getting jumped on by more than 1 ship. But 1 on 1 he was a wildcat.

    Score from Today

    There are science guys who cause me problems, ... as well as there are cruisers who punch hard.

    They are out there. Perhaps you just need to ask them what they are doing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    I usally dps pretty high. Near the top in most matches. This has not changed.

    How are you obtaining your Damage Per Second data?

    Not from the scorecard at the end I hope. That's not a measure of Damage Per Second. That's a measure of total damage dealt. That's NOT your DPS.

    And hopefully also not from your tooltip displays on your weapons. That's a magical calculated display number, but that's not actual DPS data from parsed combat logs.

    :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    How are you obtaining your Damage Per Second data?

    DPS is fine and all, but keeping the pressure on the right places in an enemy line can break it apart and reduce the fire your teammates are taking and you are taking as well.

    Pick your targets, be like a wolf and hunt the weak. Then attack the strong in a pack.

    The strongest chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    you can still handle the bad players on your own ;)

    just now the slightly better ones require team work...

    and just avoid the ones that were great before the patch, coz you wont kill them without another 4 players....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »

    Before I respond to that stupid comment, i checked you out in some of the other threads. It seems that your saying simlar things to other people who don't like the changes.
    OlBuzzard wrote:
    good to see I'm not the only one who has made that observation ... nicely done !

    hey I'm just stating the obvious, Cryptic is not going to change it over night. ( it may never change ) so your two options is to change with the times, or stay the same. ( you can also quit, but that's not that great of an option ) it really up to you. just don't be surprised when resourceful players beat you at PVP.

    now this doesn't mean you can't voice your opinion, no you should voice it, but it will take time for them to change, and so you will have to adapt for the time being.

    Edit one more thing, it's really up to you, I'm just providing the advice that I've gotten from other MMO nerfs that helps with the pain. but hay what do I know. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ive got mixed feelings with this patch, escorts cant 1 shot skilled people any more, but recently i had a game where in the first 10 minuets not 1 person died, there was too much healing (this was in my deep space science vessel) then in my RA5 tac escort i had cruisers who refused to support their team and i died more times than i could kill because of ganging up.
    The new patch promotes alot of team play and i love it, the only greivience i have is that combat is too slow. a good team without enough escorts on either side could end up in hour long matches. My science ship dmg sucks but i always am on top for healing so there is a tradeoff.
    Really in this patch more than ever escorts need a good team or they are just dead weight.
    But a well balanced team (probably 2 cruisers,2 escorts, and 1 sci) would be unbeatable if they work together.

    as i said i have mixed feelings, but i think the devs have made a great step forward in balancing the game. and i hope they keep up the good work.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ive got mixed feelings with this patch, escorts cant 1 shot skilled people any more, but recently i had a game where in the first 10 minuets not 1 person died, there was too much healing (this was in my deep space science vessel) then in my RA5 tac escort i had cruisers who refused to support their team and i died more times than i could kill because of ganging up.
    The new patch promotes alot of team play and i love it, the only greivience i have is that combat is too slow. a good team without enough escorts on either side could end up in hour long matches. My science ship dmg sucks but i always am on top for healing so there is a tradeoff.
    Really in this patch more than ever escorts need a good team or they are just dead weight.
    But a well balanced team (probably 2 cruisers,2 escorts, and 1 sci) would be unbeatable if they work together.

    as i said i have mixed feelings, but i think the devs have made a great step forward in balancing the game. and i hope they keep up the good work.

    well said.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    no it is called goofy. My ship should be able to handle any ship in the game.

    And I submit... my ship should be able to handle any ship in the game, including yours.

    So who's right? You or me? :cool:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Kinjiru wrote: »
    And I submit... my ship should be able to handle any ship in the game, including yours.

    So who's right? You or me? :cool:

    Well you are obviously delusional.

    And how do i messure my dps...well if i did the most amount of damage in the time limit of the game then I must of had the highest dps. Is that all I look at, no, I also want to have the most kills. I use the messuring stick they give me. It is the same one they give everyone else.

    Now after playing a few more hours of PVP tonight, I can see how it is more fair for the sci guys and cruisers. I still blow you guys up alot more than you blow me up, but you are killing me more often, and you don't die as quickly. Every once in awhile I will get a giant crit that makes me feel all special again. I can live with the changes, but i will miss the days when i could just plow through everyone.

    I changed a few things that seemed to help a little. Went to a two thirds beam setup rather than the two thirds cannon set up i had before. Got rid of one of my rapid fires and got beam overload III, switched to beam target aux rather than beam target shields. The science ships are going down faster now. I still have one more thing I want to change and that is to get a more efficiant engine. I should get that tomorrow. I am tops on the dammage charts with the most kills again, so I am happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    no it is called goofy. My ship should be able to handle any ship in the game. As it currently sits, there are more ships out there that can just spam heal themselves and not fight. That is not fun to me. I can't see how they think it is fun. Perhaps they do think it is fun and they are just morons. Either way I wouldnt call it tactics. It is just me doing whatever I can to have fun within a broken PVP system. You call it whatever you want. Hopefully Cryptic will fix it soon.

    You say that these ships can heal through your damage, but were they doing a lot of damage to you? If so it's a stale mate.

    When you say you should be able to handle any ship in the game, it sounds like what you mean is you should be able to win against any ship. You really don't think you should ever come up against somethingt that you can't handle solo and need to team up to take out? I don't see how what you want is the least bit balanced.

    In other games when a high DPS, low health class goes up against a tank class, they often end up losing. Escorts just being able to beat every other ship class is not balanced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    pcolapat wrote: »
    well if i did the most amount of damage in the time limit of the game then I must of had the highest dps.

    Not really no.

    That's a really skewed way to measure DPS.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    I was myself a bit curious about the many changes and feared that i would totally change the way tactical works and especially tac escorts are played.

    But after playing a good deal of matches yesterday i am really astonished how well Crytic did on that patch.

    PvP got slower which is good, without reducing the damage to much.

    I adapted my build a bit, changed two BO skills, a console and one weapon and do even better than before. The survivability of my fleet escort is exellent now and the damage i do, lets me still feel like the DPS class.

    I have more fun playing my tactical fleet escort than before the patch, so i really think the changes are exellent.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    DPS and total damage are nice benchmarks. But they don't tell the whole story. Spike damage is also very important.

    Th total damage distrubuted over the time of a match gives you one average value for your DPS.
    But this might no be the damage per seconds you could achieve during a 5 second period when you used Attack Pattern Alpha, Attack Pattern Omega against a target suffering disruptor breach and with a Attack Pattern Beta debuff and a Sensor Scann debuff.

    This short spike in damage might have been brilliant and destroyed a ship. Or it was just swept away by an RSP triggered a second later that almost instantly removed all shield damage you had done in those 5 seconds, leaving only some hull damage a Hazard Emitter will clear away in the next 20 seconds.

    Or maybe you dealt a moderate amount of damage all the time in your cruiser, broadsiding enemies. But you never got to kill anyone. Everyuse used heals to negate the damage, and no one else helped you use their temporary weakness to finish the ship off. You get high DPS over 30 seconds or the entire match, but in the end, you could just as well not have been there, since there was no pressure for the enemy and it didnd't actually cost him anything to recover from the damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    How are you obtaining your Damage Per Second data?

    Not from the scorecard at the end I hope. That's not a measure of Damage Per Second. That's a measure of total damage dealt. That's NOT your DPS.

    And hopefully also not from your tooltip displays on your weapons. That's a magical calculated display number, but that's not actual DPS data from parsed combat logs.

    :(
    True. most who post on the forums use the term DPS in the wrong context.

    Pick your targets, be like a wolf and hunt the weak. Then attack the strong in a pack.

    The strongest chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
    i
    Really in this patch more than ever escorts need a good team or they are just dead weight.
    .
    Escorts/BoP's do seem to die just as quickly as pre-patch, but I haven't found the dammage output, DPS or sustained, to be any worse than before. I played 3 pvp matches at in my Ltcdr Tactical BoP and found that while I still died quickly if, due to bad healing on my part, I found the dammage to be ok. I was pleased that it takes a little longer to crack a cruiser now, but offput by the ease that I was shutdown with SNB.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    damage per second is the value of the total damage to another player you inflict in the course of of one second. they game does not give you that value in an average at the end of the match. however if you divide the total number of seconds in a match by your total damage you will get a number. if there are five players in a five minute match and one has a higher totaldamage after you average that figure down toeach second in the match he would still have a higher number. he achieved this high number with a combination of burst damage and sustained damage over time.

    i can crit with bo3 anywhere between 15000 and 40000. i ram about two or three people in every match whichs hits on average about 20000. that is good burst dps. sustained dps is also not a problem. every eight seconds i can fire a volly of four torps that if they hit do considerable damage and my beams do about 9000 damage my canon and trurets are constantly doing damage as well. there are alot of numbers to consider when evaluating dps and i a
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Well since cryptic is making the game "team" oriented they should have made it mandatory to join a "fleet".

    So those casual PvPers now have only PvE seems like a win for everyone. Not every Fleet runs premades and not every PuG is a bad PvPer but now it penalizes fleets and PuGers because they casually PvP and the patch tells them becaome a fleet and work as a team ore the beatings will get worse. Like I said it looks like everyone wins.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Well since cryptic is making the game "team" oriented they should have made it mandatory to join a "fleet".

    So those casual PvPers now have only PvE seems like a win for everyone. Not every Fleet runs premades and not every PuG is a bad PvPer but now it penalizes fleets and PuGers because they casually PvP and the patch tells them becaome a fleet and work as a team ore the beatings will get worse. Like I said it looks like everyone wins.

    this is gonna sound crass, so I apoligize in advance.

    In all honesty though, there is no reason not to be in a fleet unless your largely anti-social. If your fleet is not providing enough pvp for your taste, find a new fleet. Teaming is prefered to pugs by most people simply because you don't have to deal with as bad of players. Additionally, it lets your choose your team composition before hand - 5 escorts is a recipe for disaster. Teaming is nothing new to patch 1.2.

    As per the "premades always stomp pugs" arguement, that simply isn't the case. There are quite a few premades that can be beaten simply by coordination and having healers - which just happen to be rare in pugs. Hell, some fleets fly without healers - which in and of itself is suicidal. It's not that the team that is preassembled will win, its that the team with HEALERS will win. By healers though, I mean dedicated healing players with enough competance (and a pulse) to blunt the majority of the damage coming it. Healers are what buys the team time to win.

    So if you want to win in a pug, you need to bring the coordinated dps and good healers to the fight. That right there is the problem with pugs, you can never be guarenteed to get those. The phrase "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself" comes to mind.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ive got mixed feelings with this patch, escorts cant 1 shot skilled people any more, but recently i had a game where in the first 10 minuets not 1 person died, there was too much healing (this was in my deep space science vessel) then in my RA5 tac escort i had cruisers who refused to support their team and i died more times than i could kill because of ganging up.
    The new patch promotes alot of team play and i love it, the only greivience i have is that combat is too slow. a good team without enough escorts on either side could end up in hour long matches. My science ship dmg sucks but i always am on top for healing so there is a tradeoff.
    Really in this patch more than ever escorts need a good team or they are just dead weight.
    But a well balanced team (probably 2 cruisers,2 escorts, and 1 sci) would be unbeatable if they work together.

    as i said i have mixed feelings, but i think the devs have made a great step forward in balancing the game. and i hope they keep up the good work.

    its still piossible to 1 shot, just unlikely
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    you guys talk about dps and escort liek you had a clue of what kind of dps an escort do

    i could go all day goign full AoE with whatever you want, killign no kill, just spammign aoe atack, and in the end, get more dps than the strongest killer

    or, focus on burst damage to kill the fastest possible each atack

    doign that may limit some1 ability to get higher damage on the scoreboard, but he may be WAY more usuful than the other guy gatherign numbers in a useless way
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Id say a 1 shot is highly unlikely. Maybe Escort vs Escort.

    From my PvP experience post 1.2 patch no Escort has killed me 1v1. Im in a Cruiser, and 1v1 they have no chance because I can out heal more than they could ever damage. Its crazy how I can last while under fire from 3 ships.

    My advice if you're looking for easy kills. Go for other Escorts, then Science ships and Crusiers only if you have back up. Heck I dont even go for other Cruisers by myself, combat is never ending.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    Well since cryptic is making the game "team" oriented they should have made it mandatory to join a "fleet".

    So those casual PvPers now have only PvE seems like a win for everyone. Not every Fleet runs premades and not every PuG is a bad PvPer but now it penalizes fleets and PuGers because they casually PvP and the patch tells them becaome a fleet and work as a team ore the beatings will get worse. Like I said it looks like everyone wins.

    I have never run a premade team so far. I always been in PuGs. I don't do PvP often enough yet, but I am considering joining a fleet (or rather, join a PvP fleet - most of my chars are in a fleet) for more of that.

    But I think the key skill is teamwork. You can do teamwork in a PuG. You just have to talk with each other, listen to the players. You can even do it without Vent or Skype or Teamspeak (I've never usd this so far, even though I am sure it's a big boon). All that becomes easier with a fleet or a premade team.

    The challenge for newcomers is that they don't coordinate at all. That they don't know how to work in a team. That they can't identify a healer or don't know that they better share what they have. That they don't do "Fedballs" or whatever else sometimes very basic team tactics are.

    Premades and Fleets can help avoid this. But usually, people will always have a "phase of fail" where they don't know how to do this. They don't know that a fleet or a premade can help.

    But that doesn't apply to everyone. Sometimes, a PvP inexperienced players knows the value of teamwork already. He might have entered enemy sensor contacts and coordinated with people there. Thrown out heals where needed.

    Some things are different between PvP and PvE - Coordinated fire with Escorts means that they should target each a different enemy in PvE, since most can't survive a full alpha strike of a single escort, and anything more is consequently overkill. That will probably often not be true in PvP where there's healing and resistances that are thrown around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ultime wrote: »
    you guys talk about dps and escort liek you had a clue of what kind of dps an escort do

    i could go all day goign full AoE with whatever you want, killign no kill, just spammign aoe atack, and in the end, get more dps than the strongest killer

    or, focus on burst damage to kill the fastest possible each atack

    doign that may limit some1 ability to get higher damage on the scoreboard, but he may be WAY more usuful than the other guy gatherign numbers in a useless way

    This is certainly true post 1.2, i would have said less so before the patch. The only reason players are adopting cannon scatter shot over cannon rapid fire atm is because oddly per shot it actually has a higher base dps modifier, i think it is almost 300 dps more. So you can reach 2500 dps / cannon with it which is close to pre patch numbers. Focus that on one player and you have higher dps than if you used crf of the same lvl. Spread amonst 3 players the damage is still there but the focus has gone so you are placing the ships under less pressure.
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