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Star Trek Online: The Needs of the Many Book

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So I have been reading this book over the past couple days to find myself getting aggravated. Please feel free to correct me on anything I might be wrong about. From my understanding this book is taking place after the Star Trek Movie (2009) where Nero destroys Vulcan.

From the STO MMO perspective the game follows the "prime universe" (the universe that Spock and Nero left)


My question is why does Michael A Martin get to decide the future of the new star trek timeline?

For example if the book is following the Star Trek Movie (where there is only about 10,000 Vulcans left) why is there a Tuvok.? Wouldn't you think that the chances are a lot smaller now that he even exists because most of his race was killed (meaning his ancestors, mother, father could have been killed).

***Possible Spoiler****

Another example is when he Sisko interviews General Worf. Now Worf was almost killed by Nero. Based on this information Worf was born a hundred years earlier. Nero went back in 2233, attacked Vulcan 25 years later(2258) and Worf was the General when they attacked Nero.

My point I am trying to make is why does the author get to decide the fate of the characters of the new Star Trek? If you really think about everything Michael Martin made minor changes to the timeline (Janeway is alive instead of dead), why does their even have to be a Janeway?

Please comment, I am trying to wrap this all in my head.

Thanks
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Vulcan wasn't destroyed in the Prime Universe. It was destroyed in the movie's alternate universe.

    Martin got to improvise some elements (and had to) but he was trying to work from Cryptic's notes as they got to decide what happens in the Prime Timeline according to the game.

    In terms of Nero's attack, that's from the Star Trek: Countdown comic book, in which Nero attacks Worf BEFORE going back in time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Doofy-117 wrote: »
    So I have been reading this book over the past couple days to find myself getting aggravated. Please feel free to correct me on anything I might be wrong about. From my understanding this book is taking place after the Star Trek Movie (2009) where Nero destroys Vulcan.

    From the STO MMO perspective the game follows the "prime universe" (the universe that Spock and Nero left)


    My question is why does Michael A Martin get to decide the future of the new star trek timeline?

    For example if the book is following the Star Trek Movie (where there is only about 10,000 Vulcans left) why is there a Tuvok.? Wouldn't you think that the chances are a lot smaller now that he even exists because most of his race was killed (meaning his ancestors, mother, father could have been killed).

    ***Possible Spoiler****

    Another example is when he Sisko interviews General Worf. Now Worf was almost killed by Nero. Based on this information Worf was born a hundred years earlier. Nero went back in 2233, attacked Vulcan 25 years later(2258) and Worf was the General when they attacked Nero.

    My point I am trying to make is why does the author get to decide the fate of the characters of the new Star Trek? If you really think about everything Michael Martin made minor changes to the timeline (Janeway is alive instead of dead), why does their even have to be a Janeway?

    Please comment, I am trying to wrap this all in my head.

    Thanks

    When Spock and Nero went back in time they created an alternate timeline. In other words there are 2 separate timelines:

    Prime timline includes TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, all the movies (except the 2009 one), and STO.

    Alternate timeline includes the 2009 movie ONLY

    Understand?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    To clarify, the Prime Universe is the universe Nero and Spock left behind and is completely unaffected by the STAR TREK (2009) film aside from being the universe Nero and Spock left behind.

    In the Prime Universe, Romulus was destroyed and Nero fought Worf, the resurrected Data and Picard before going to the alternate universe, which Spock followed him to. Star Trek Online is set roughly 22 years after Spock and Nero disappeared.

    In the alternate universe, Nero destroyed Vulcan and the events of 2009's Star Trek film took place. These events do not affect the Prime timeline, where Vulcan was never destroyed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Doofy-117 wrote: »
    For example if the book is following the Star Trek Movie (where there is only about 10,000 Vulcans left) why is there a Tuvok.? Wouldn't you think that the chances are a lot smaller now that he even exists because most of his race was killed (meaning his ancestors, mother, father could have been killed).

    from what I understand, when nero went through the black hole, he actually created an alternate timeline, as in its a timeline that branches off from the normal timeline, therefore the original timeline is still in tact and leaving it unaffected by what happens in the other timeline. almost like a parallel universe. think of it as a cell that divides; the original is in tact, and the copy goes off on its own, leaving it to encounter its own fate. The original cell will never be affected by anything that happens to its copy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet... but only film / TV is 'canon', or that's how it was last I heard. So any of the hundreds of novels don't really count as determining the history of Trek.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In terms of Nero's attack, that's from the Star Trek: Countdown comic book, in which Nero attacks Worf BEFORE going back in time.

    AHHH I understand now. I see how he gets attacked. I also went back and reread the part where sisko asks him about that. "The planet Vulcan owes its survival to you..." Sorry, guess I just read it to fast and misunderstood something and one thing went on to another. I was so confused but, I understand now haha. My mistake. Up until that part I knew that this book took part in the "prime universe". Then they threw in Nero and thats when things got confusing(never read the comic book).

    Thanks again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet... but only film / TV is 'canon', or that's how it was last I heard. So any of the hundreds of novels don't really count as determining the history of Trek.

    That is true. But the STO folks are free to use non-canon sources as they please... and the Countdown comic book is probably the closest thing to canon of any tie-in because it was plotted by 2/3rds of the people in charge of new Star Trek canon and created to fill in the gaps of the canon movie's backstory.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Actually Countdown is considered 100% canon, there are even a few novels that are considered canon. However the majority are not.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    attilio wrote: »
    Actually Countdown is considered 100% canon, there are even a few novels that are considered canon. However the majority are not.

    Orci and Kurtzman did back away from that, saying they didn't really consult Abrams about the comic and that they are currently a "council of three" in determining canon. So it's 2/3rds canon and Abrams COULD veto it.

    It's the equivalent of what would have happened fifteen years ago if Braga and Moore and Taylor worked on a comic book without consulting Berman.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Orci and Kurtzman did back away from that, saying they didn't really consult Abrams about the comic and that they are currently a "council of three" in determining canon. So it's 2/3rds canon and Abrams COULD veto it.

    It's the equivalent of what would have happened fifteen years ago if Braga and Moore and Taylor worked on a comic book without consulting Berman.

    Honestly I never heard that, but I doubt he would veto it, or at least not all of it. Obviously some parts of it cannot be changed, like the destruction of Romulus and Spock trying to help but failing.

    I know the two Voyager novels, Mosaic and Pathways are canon.

    EDIT: Just did a quick search about Countdown. Basically its on the edge of being canon. If a future film contradicts anything then the film would be considered canon over the comic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    To clarify, the Prime Universe is the universe Nero and Spock left behind and is completely unaffected by the STAR TREK (2009) film aside from being the universe Nero and Spock left behind.

    In the Prime Universe, Romulus was destroyed and Nero fought Worf, the resurrected Data and Picard before going to the alternate universe, which Spock followed him to. Star Trek Online is set roughly 22 years after Spock and Nero disappeared.

    In the alternate universe, Nero destroyed Vulcan and the events of 2009's Star Trek film took place. These events do not affect the Prime timeline, where Vulcan was never destroyed.

    Well this goes to the discussion that was going on in the other thread, whereby time travel in Star Trek never worked that way. The only way this works is if they traveled to an alternate universe and messed up that universe's timeline.

    The movie is not particularly clear about which way it happened. If they traveled back into their own past and the events occurred and were not fixed, then the Prime timeline is affected since it is erased and replaced by the alternate. If they traveled to an alternate timeline first, then the Prime timeline is unaffected.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    LotD wrote:
    Well this goes to the discussion that was going on in the other thread, whereby time travel in Star Trek never worked that way. The only way this works is if they traveled to an alternate universe and messed up that universe's timeline.

    The movie is not particularly clear about which way it happened. If they traveled back into their own past and the events occurred and were not fixed, then the Prime timeline is affected since it is erased and replaced by the alternate. If they traveled to an alternate timeline first, then the Prime timeline is unaffected.

    Even if they did initially travel into their own past, you're assuming that creating an alternate timeline or altering history are mutually exclusive theories of how time travel works.

    In comic book universes, both outcomes are typically possible, with pseudo-scientific explanations for why some time travel results in altering one universe and other time travel creates divergent universes. There's no reason why both can't be true in Star Trek and personally, I always subscribed to the idea that a story like First Contact involves no fewer than three separate universes but that after being stranded in one universe (typically the result of being caught in a temporal wake), the closest thing to a "way home" is to mold the universe you're in to resemble the one you're from.

    But nobody ever really fixes the timeline or goes home. They just create a new universe close enough to their home universe that they can settle in there without disruption. My take, anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    NCC-94699 wrote:
    In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.

    What are you talking about? Worf fought Nero in 2387 in the prime universe. I think you're mixed up like the OP was.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    If you actually read the book it explains that it us a collection of interviews done by Jake Sisko during and around the time of STO....

    The foward explains this...on page XI of the foward Jake gives the date: Thursday, February 16, 2423.

    14 years after the start of STO.... Hell the first interview is with a retired MACO giving his details about boarding an Undine Ship in EV suits
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    NCC-94699 wrote:
    In addition there was an ancestor of Worf. General Worf had appearance in ST:VI as lawyer of Kirk and McCoy, that could pretty match with the date when he defeats Nero. At the other hand he could have been in battle with Nero before he got sucked into that blackhole.

    It is true that Worf's ancestor was Kirk and McCoy's lawyer, but this isn't the Worf that Nero fought. Nero fought the Worf from TNG and DS9 before ever going back in time with Spock.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Even if they did initially travel into their own past, you're assuming that creating an alternate timeline or altering history are mutually exclusive theories of how time travel works.

    In comic book universes, both outcomes are typically possible, with pseudo-scientific explanations for why some time travel results in altering one universe and other time travel creates divergent universes. There's no reason why both can't be true in Star Trek and personally, I always subscribed to the idea that a story like First Contact involves no fewer than three separate universes but that after being stranded in one universe (typically the result of being caught in a temporal wake), the closest thing to a "way home" is to mold the universe you're in to resemble the one you're from.

    But nobody ever really fixes the timeline or goes home. They just create a new universe close enough to their home universe that they can settle in there without disruption. My take, anyway.

    It's true that it's entirely possible, and your theory is an interesting one. However, I cannot think of an instance where time travel resulted in a divergent universe in Star Trek according to the dialog of the episode/movie. The future always gets replaced if there's someone still in the future protected from temporal changes. Otherwise, they operate on the self-consistency principle whereby the events unfold in the past just like they were supposed to because the crew goes back and fixes what got broken, such as the one with Data's head. Even in Voyager that guy comes back from the future to tell Janeway she broke the future. And that guy is a temporal police officer or something, suggesting further that changes to the timeline immediately and irrevocably affect the future if not corrected. If they merely created alternative universes, nobody would need temporal police since nobody in the Prime timeline would know anything changed.

    In Star Trek 90210, the implication is that Nero's trip to the past altered the Prime future, but unlike any other time travel instance in Star Trek, nobody fixes the timeline (which is kind of ridiculous in and of itself considering Vulcan was destroyed.) If time travel operates the way it is shown in the shows and previous movies, then the Prime future goes away.

    Further, it does not appear they ever intend to return to the Prime timeline for future movies/TV shows, so even if it does exist in an alternate reality, we likely won't be seeing it again outside of novels and STO thereby effectively eliminating it anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    attilio wrote: »
    It is true that Worf's ancestor was Kirk and McCoy's lawyer, but this isn't the Worf that Nero fought. Nero fought the Worf from TNG and DS9 before ever going back in time with Spock.

    You never know, it might be. On the Collector's Edition Blu Ray that I bought of 2009 Star Trek, there was some addition footage that got cut before the theatrical release that showed Nero and his crew on a Klingon Prison Planet. Their escape and ensuing battle with the Klingons was what Uhura intercepted and translated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i think he understands the whole prime/alternate universe thing, he's trying to wrap his head around how in the alternate universe there is a tuvok, janeway lives, worf was born 100 years earlyer etc etc etc.

    you clarrified that worf was before the alternate timeline, but what about tuvok and janeway ? >_>

    i'm thinking op has alternate and orignal universes confused as to what happened in which timeline, and just needs clarification... i haven't red the book though so i can't clarrify, sorry
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i think he understands the whole prime/alternate universe thing, he's trying to wrap his head around how in the alternate universe there is a tuvok, janeway lives, worf was born 100 years earlyer etc etc etc.

    you clarrified that worf was before the alternate timeline, but what about tuvok and janeway ? >_>

    i'm thinking op has alternate and orignal universes confused as to what happened in which timeline, and just needs clarification... i haven't red the book though so i can't clarrify, sorry

    The game takes place in the original timeline which is unaffected by the alterations made in the film.

    ORIGINAL TIMELINE: Nero and Spock disappear. Vulcan still exists. The events of ENTERPRISE, TOS, TAS. TMP through UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY, TNG, DS9, VOYAGER, GENERATIONS through NEMESIS are completely unaffected by Spock and Nero's actions.

    STAR TREK (2009) TIMELINE: An entirely separate universe corrupted by Nero. EXPLICITLY stated by Spock Prime IN THE FILM.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Doofy-117 wrote: »
    So I have been reading this book over the past couple days to find myself getting aggravated. Please feel free to correct me on anything I might be wrong about. From my understanding this book is taking place after the Star Trek Movie (2009) where Nero destroys Vulcan.

    From the STO MMO perspective the game follows the "prime universe" (the universe that Spock and Nero left)


    My question is why does Michael A Martin get to decide the future of the new star trek timeline?

    For example if the book is following the Star Trek Movie (where there is only about 10,000 Vulcans left) why is there a Tuvok.? Wouldn't you think that the chances are a lot smaller now that he even exists because most of his race was killed (meaning his ancestors, mother, father could have been killed).

    ***Possible Spoiler****

    Another example is when he Sisko interviews General Worf. Now Worf was almost killed by Nero. Based on this information Worf was born a hundred years earlier. Nero went back in 2233, attacked Vulcan 25 years later(2258) and Worf was the General when they attacked Nero.

    My point I am trying to make is why does the author get to decide the fate of the characters of the new Star Trek? If you really think about everything Michael Martin made minor changes to the timeline (Janeway is alive instead of dead), why does their even have to be a Janeway?

    Please comment, I am trying to wrap this all in my head.

    Thanks

    First of, the events in "Star Trek 09" take place over 100 years in the past (from the game's perspective) in an alternate "quantum" reality. Alternate realities are a concept not alien to Star Trek and based on the Many-Worlds Theory.
    As for Worf's struggle w/ Nero, that happened BEFORE Nero traveled back in time shortly after Romulus was destroyed. Those events can be seen in the comic book "count down". In short though after Romulus was destroyed, Nero went on a rampage attacking anything in sight, he upgrades his ship w/ Romulan/Borg tech, the Klingons send a fleet to stop him, Worf was in charge of the fleet, Nero nearly kills Worf, Nero escapes travels back in time and creates an all new and separate reality.
    There was a Worf in the past that defended Kirk and Spock in "Undiscovered country". That Worf was the grandfather of the Worf in TNG.
    As for Janeway, I never remember her dying. Last time we saw Janeway she was an admiral and was sending Picard off to meet w/ the Romulans in "Nemesis".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Orci and Kurtzman did back away from that, saying they didn't really consult Abrams about the comic and that they are currently a "council of three" in determining canon. So it's 2/3rds canon and Abrams COULD veto it.

    It's the equivalent of what would have happened fifteen years ago if Braga and Moore and Taylor worked on a comic book without consulting Berman.
    Never even heard of this and since on the back cover of the comic it says the "official movie prequel" I take it as such.
    It also says "JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman, Mike Johnson, Tim Jones and David Messina present the origin of Nero, the mysterious Romulan who will ultimately threaten the survival of the entire universe. Don't miss the story that birngs Star Trrek back to the big screen!" So clearly Abranms must have had some knowledge of the project since he was credited for it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    All I know is, everything I've read about this novel says it's awful, so when I passed by it at the bookstore yesterday, I let it sit on the shelf!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The book is actually not bad. It is written as a serioies of interviews and articles as published by Jake Sisko. There have been much worse books from Star Trek.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    attilio wrote: »
    It is true that Worf's ancestor was Kirk and McCoy's lawyer, but this isn't the Worf that Nero fought. Nero fought the Worf from TNG and DS9 before ever going back in time with Spock.

    I remember Michael Dorn who played the part said it was Worf's ancestor to explain why he looked so much alike. It may have been in the novel version of the movie but they never had Worf reference it later. Would have been a good time to do it when they did Generations and at the time they thought Kirk died on the Enterprise-B instead of being sucked into a ribbon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    **** POSSIBLE SPOILER ****

    One of the interviews done in the book is with two "time cops" from the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations (DTI). The officers are Dulmer and Lucsly (who were also the two agents that interviewed Ben Sisco after the Trials-and-tribble-ations situation).

    Basically the interview goes like this:
    Jake goes to a Federation mental institution to interview two former DTI operatives (Dulmer and Lucsly - although I think their spelling was slightly different) who were somewhat publicly active during the Undine war. Luscly states that their (and the DTI's) involvement in the Undine war was relatively minor and that there were no prominent time incursions during the war.

    Dulmer, however, seems to hold a different view. Unfortunately, he is also considered "damaged" by his colleagues and is currently being treated for a mental disorder characterized by real memories of events that never occurred.

    Dulmer seems to have real memories (as confirmed by mind-melds) of events that even his partner (and to a certain point, Jake) believe did not occur. Of primary relevance to Jake's interview is that he recalls a great deal of effort being spent to correct the various Undine temporal incursions and that the efforts on the part of the DTI may not have been 100% successful in restoring all changes to the timeline. The implication is that there are likely several anomalies - or inconsistencies- that will periodically emerge (although they may not be recognized as such). He referenced the "authentic" image of Gabriel Bell actually being an image of Ben Sisco as an example of how these anomalies may manifest themselves.

    While Jake has to acknowledge that any statements by Dulmer cannot be substantiated, he recognizes Dulmer's orderly in the institution as Q and suspects that Dulmer's statements are more likely than not accurate in one or more alternate realities (in order to have caught Q's interest).

    I found this interview (the book is essentially a series of interviews made by Jake Sisco relating to the Undine war) to be probably one of the most relevant to the Star Trek Online universe (and to the potential of the game itself). I base this on the following two points made during the interview (although they are not clearly relevant to Jake's purpose):

    1) By seeding the concept of temporal interference (even in the pursuit of protecting the Federation's history *as the DTI views it*) creating slight temporal inconsistencies, the game has something of a safety net for any inconsistencies that emerge between Star Trek (prime universe) history and history as presented in the context of Star Trek Online. Kind of clever, in a way. Little things that have been pointed out (such as inconsistent dates and spelling from the "Path to 2409") now (arguably) have an in-universe explanation.

    2) (And to me, this is a biggie.) Dulmer has a short breakdown where he starts relating events that Jake and Luscly clearly know as not having happened. He talks of Admiral Janeway's death and the destruction of several key Federation worlds during the great Borg invasion. He then is confused when he mentions Vulcan during this conflict, since he has a conflicting memory that Vulcan was destroyed long ago. Obviously, these "memories" are references to the Borg invasion from the Destiny series of novels and Nero's successful destruction of Vulcan in the "Alternate" universe of the recent film. The fact that he is aware of these events, even though they clearly did not occur in the timeline of the game (it is a "Star Trek Online" novel, not a "Star Trek" novel, after all) may imply that some action(s) on the part of the DTI in the game timeline secured the Federation from the effects of these events. This opens the door to allow the Star Trek Online game to explore these events in the context of acting on behalf of the DTI to prevent them from affecting the Star Trek Online timeline. Again, this could be clever. (Although it would also require some licensing permissions to truly be done effectively.)
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