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My fear for STO, and 2.0: episodes, explorations, and mini games.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
There is a lot of talk of this great season 2.0 on the forums, and I keep on getting a lot of D
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think you're correct, and I've posted similar thoughts in other threads. Even if Cryptic knocks Episode 2 out of the park, there would be maybe 4 - 6 hours of high level content and a little more than that in new Klingon content. I agree with a lot of your ideas, but would include fixing fleet actions and prioritizing fleet instancing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I don't see 2.0 as being anything more then another update. I don't canonize like people did the 45-day patch or anything else. It's just more monthly content. It's going to take a year or more for this game to really get itself established and get the mission and end-game content under control - and longer for Klingon PvE content to get well established. Anyone who thinks this is going to happen in 2.0 is just fooling themselves and ultimately setting themselves up for disappointment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I like all the features that are underdevelopement for Season 2.
    I hope it will bring STO closer to the vision of Star Trek that the player base wants.
    Diplomacy, First Contact and Interiors are an essential step in the right direction.
    Weekly episodes sound great.
    Replayable eps another good idea.

    I dont' expect Season 2 to be a miracle patch but i do hope to see it improving the Star Trek feel of the game.

    I believe the Exploration mechanic content needs to be updated and enlarged soon.
    Its the one in-game mechanic that offers the possibility of limitless gameplay but only if they can improve it with more variety and complexity.
    The only other system that could offer such limitless gameplay is UGC and thats years away so concentrate on improving Exploration depth now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    What i want to see is a new Mission worth doing every week so i stay *subscribed* and entertained by the Story.

    I have no NEED to play the game every day for 5 hours but i like to see the game grow.

    If there is something worth doing i am going to test and play that and as long as there will be new stuff i will have fun doing it.

    For now they throw in base mechanics (which realy should have been there from the start) like Memory Alpha, Death Penalty, Difficulty Slider, Auto Fire, Nerf... *ahem* Reballancing..... Sidekicking, Episode Replay, Ship Interriors, Off Duty Uniforms.... and so on...
    All of those are needed and asked for, many are even inspired by Feedback but... if i am bored by the game and have nothing left to do, will that change by changing the energy management or by nerfing some Tactical Consoles?

    That will only change if i get new Missions.

    There was not one Episode Mission or even Patrol added since launch which is just weak.
    Not for Federation, not for Klingons.

    The planned STF's are done now so they should have more time for diffrent content now i hope.

    STF's are fine and all but by now it feels as if there is nothing else to come and that has to change.

    They need to find a better ballance between supplying new Base Mechanics and more new playable content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My hope for Season 2 is a lot more missions.

    Yes, a lot of the current players will plow through them quickly and be out of missions again. However, there would be more content for new players, and existing players who like to create alts (like me). The trip to maximum level is a bit too quick, and needs to be padded out a bit. Klingons need much much more PvE content.

    Raising the maximum level will help out on the Federation side, and there will also supposedly be more missions at other levels for the Federation too. Klingons, well, we'll see. I'm not getting my hopes up too much there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    For the people who have been here since the beginning the season 2 patch will be nothing more than an update with some sparkles. In my opinion it will take a year at the very least to get most of what the starting player base wanted.

    For the new player it will be somewhat exciting. They get to benefit from all the feedback that the longer players have been adding. No, the season 2 patch will disappoint some. Just gonna happen. Some have set their expectations too high and the day of the patch and afterward I have no doubt we will see plenty of Cryptic fails threads.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I pretty much share your reasoned pessimism. When we were in OB, everyone prayed for the release day patch. After release date, all hope was put into the 45 day patch and then season 1, and now season 2.

    I really don't see anything in season 2 that will be a game changer. Even if they do all of it flawlessly, it will still be too little too late. Most of the stuff that you have hope for... well... it's still a lot of minor changes that don't significantly rehabilitate the game.

    Sorry if I sound like a prophet of doom, but I really can't see how season 2 will do much to "quell the haters." On the other hand, something like user-gen-content could solve all of the game's content problems, as well as many of the player's complaints.

    Even then, it's something that they're probably developing with NWN in mind, to be retroactively applied to STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    I pretty much share your reasoned pessimism. When we were in OB, everyone prayed for the release day patch. After release date, all hope was put into the 45 day patch and then season 1, and now season 2.

    I really don't see anything in season 2 that will be a game changer. Even if they do all of it flawlessly, it will still be too little too late. Most of the stuff that you have hope for... well... it's still a lot of minor changes that don't significantly rehabilitate the game.

    Sorry if I sound like a prophet of doom, but I really can't see how season 2 will do much to "quell the haters." On the other hand, something like user-gen-content could solve all of the game's content problems, as well as many of the player's complaints.

    Even then, it's something that they're probably developing with NWN in mind, to be retroactively applied to STO.

    I personally don't care why they develop it as long as the do. Yet, I don't think it will quell or stop anyone from having issues with the game. Like I said it will take a year at least. I agree that season 2 will not be a silver bullet so to speak.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    I pretty much share your reasoned pessimism. When we were in OB, everyone prayed for the release day patch. After release date, all hope was put into the 45 day patch and then season 1, and now season 2.

    I really don't see anything in season 2 that will be a game changer. Even if they do all of it flawlessly, it will still be too little too late. Most of the stuff that you have hope for... well... it's still a lot of minor changes that don't significantly rehabilitate the game.

    Sorry if I sound like a prophet of doom, but I really can't see how season 2 will do much to "quell the haters." On the other hand, something like user-gen-content could solve all of the game's content problems, as well as many of the player's complaints.

    Even then, it's something that they're probably developing with NWN in mind, to be retroactively applied to STO.

    Fully agree, especially with the yellow part!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I don't think it's going to solve everyone's problems with this game, but from the look of things it will go a long way in helping. Theres a number of things I'm eagerly anticipating in 2.0, like the new Klingon Episodes, Ship Interiors, Diplomatic Corps, Raised level cap with new zone(s) and enemies, Episode replay etc etc. If all (or most) of it goes according to plan, it might make a big difference.

    As for the STFs Zodi, they were originally advertised as being release every 2 weeks, not 1. But still, that ended up being way off base. I still have hopes for these weekly episodes keeping up. And no, I'm not expecting 52 new episodes every year. I expect their to be breaks in between, or the occasional 2 week lapse after a big cliffhanger ending. Just like the TV shows :)
    Z3R0B4NG wrote: »
    There was not one Episode Mission or even Patrol added since launch which is just weak.
    Not for Federation, not for Klingons.

    Not true. Gamma Orionis, and the 3 Episodes within were added after launch. (They probably should have been in to begin with, but thats beside the point)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    I pretty much share your reasoned pessimism. .
    I'm not really pessimistic or then I'm just being a realist. you are right user created content would go a long way. sure there mite be a few bad writers. ( I would be one of them i hope there is a spell check :D ) but I can see a lot of good content coming out of that.


    as someone else said, fleet actions need to be fixed. there needs to be a system where your level decides if you can loot or not. So if I'm a Captain or a RA5 i can still go to Star Base 24 ( it is 24 right I can't remember right now ) and fight along the side of the lower players, but you would be blocked from looting, and form the scoring system. that way people could not go in there and take everything.

    one other thing I would like to see changed are the Deep Space encounters. as it is now you run in to a NPC in sector space, and you are sent to an instance that is really a fleet action. I would like to see that changed so it is only the battleships that send you the Deep space encounter, but anything lower then that will send you to your own instance that is a one on one or a one on two. ( maybe we could have a number over the NPC showing how many there really are in that formation ) So that way it is more of encounter.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    A working sidekicking system would solve the fleetaction problem along with many other problems.

    The main problem of the game is that they seperated the levels from each other.

    Episode Replay is important. Some Episodes are nice and worth beeing replayed. Also it opens up more possibilitys for roleplayers.

    I say Season 2 is make it or break it for me...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think what people need to keep in mind with S2 is that there is a lot of cool sounding stuff in the works .... BUT people need to understand that all these cool new things - new missions, diplomacy, interiors will be the first iterations of these systems.

    Phase 1.... a 'first pass'....

    Will they all be 100% perfect right from the get-go? I doubt it. Will interiors pan-out exactly how every player envisioned them? Nope. Will diplomacy be the game changing content everyone thought it would be right from day 1? Probably not.

    Will the forums be filled with people whining and complaining about them and how Cryptic just "don't get it" and "clearly have never watched an episode of Star Trek"? You betcha.

    But hopefully season 2 is going to introduce these new concepts to game and give the devs some great new platforms to build on and evolve and expand over time.

    I already know the noise on the forums will reach epic levels like they always do with a large content update - where there are hundreds of players all wanting and imagining things differently to one another and as always, only one persons vision of these things can get implemented and they may not all be completely fleshed out at first.

    I predict a lot of hearts will get broken with players setting their expectations too high for season 2 but I'm excited more for what these new additions might mean for the future of the game, just as much as I am looking forward to seeing them in season 2.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    We really need some meta-games... some good examples are viable crafting systems, and accolades. I've found that what tends to keep me interested in MMOGs the longest is the meta-games, rather than the directed (storyline/quest) content. I enjoy the missions, but when they run out, there needs to be more sandbox-like self-directed goals available.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You kind of just described the "problem" with MMOs though?

    New patch comes out, people zoom through it, then the loop continues... ?

    Surely, no other game suffers that fate?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    People at the cap will always be able to run content faster than they can produce it unless they introduce lots of grinds for various things; reputation, badges, marks, chocolate widgets of uberness.

    I am also quite skeptical about user-generated content in any major way since they they need to avoid letting players run away with their licensed property and letting people design content that is half-assed or badly broken.

    Thinking about games I have played with user generated content, I can come up with 2 that had it in any meaningful way. Second Life, which is a pure sandbox and, even so, lots of the user generated content is TRIBBLE and gambling last time I was there (sure lots of pockets of cool stuff, but miles of junk). The other was, funny-enough, a text space-based game that ran on AOL ages ago, but let players own planets and write the rooms and even create quests on the planets.

    I feel to this day that game that allowed any old player (not through some arduous process of gaining admin trust rights) to create and own content was unique and cool and some people did great work, produced well made labors of love, but many, many others created TRIBBLE. TRIBBLE was created either because players were bad writers or because they couldn't really figure out the system for making it all work in game. The planet checker would only make sure you met basic requirements, so pretty bad content made it in. That experience colors my ability to believe player generated content of any meaning will appear in any large game I play. I am sure people have devised intricate systems to allow it to work, but I retain my skepticism since by the time you design enough checks to allow the content to make it live without violating whatever QA and licensee rules Cryptic would need to enforce, they may as well write the content themselves.

    The other problem with player created content is encouraging people to experience it. Good is not, frankly, good enough. Unless you can tie in-game rewards to experiencing the player content, it is just a monument to one player's vision. Ringworld comes to mind, a giant empty world that has lots of cool stuff but is ultimately dead.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I feel that any MMO developers trying to create content faster than players can consume it will find themselves overworked, burned out, and ultimately defeated. The solution should be two pronged. The first is to finish implementing core game mechanics such as mining/resource gathering, research (memory alpha type stuff, but more involved and more Trek-like), robust exploration and diplomacy.

    I sort of feel that exploration is almost there. Its fun, I enjoy doing it, there just needs to be more mission variety and probably 2 or 3 new mission mechanics. The current setup of scan 5 objects, blow up 5 groups, or combination of these in space and ground is not quite what Star Trek is about.

    I cannot comment on diplomacy because it is not in yet.

    Obviously interiors are coming, but, they aren't in yet, so I cannot comment on them.

    Continuing to build on Memory Alpha improvements so that it turns into an R&D system (which I claim should be Star Treks equivalent of crafting in other MMOs) which is really useful for highly skilled scientists. I envision a system which can add new procs to items to help in certain situations such as against Borg or Undine in STF. An example may be upgrading a deflector dish to emit a charged beam of technobabble that you need to use on some kind of End Boss in an STF mission would be nice. After that, the deflector dish is burned out and needs to be replaced with normal gear.

    The last mechanic that is missing is the resource harvesting mechanic. I think most of us can agree there are people who really love being able to venture out, survey for materials and resources, harvest them en mass for their guild/fleet/player association to use to build guild/fleet/player association infrastructure. Using this system to allow fleets to take over certain sectors of space on the border of other factions space would be amazing. Allow Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Cardassian fleets to gather resources and hold territory really goes a long way to eliminate the need for developers to create linear or guided content for an aspect of their player base.

    The second prong involves allowing your player base to create content for their fellow players in the domain of linear or guided content. But other aspects of the game need to be solid before this happens otherwise we get stuff that is the same as explore missions currently. Go here, kill 5 ships. Go there scan 5 things. If the background and core mechanics are robust enough, there are untold numbers of players who are creative enough to bring us really well thoughtout missions that may take a few days of working with the game to complete all the requirements for the mission. Obviously these would need to get funneled through Cryptic and CBS for approval, but the volume is there instead of the trickle of stuff we have now.


    This is the stage where the game can finally produce more high quality content than players can burn though. So anyone expecting "The next patch" to solve all the problems will be disappointed. The "next patch" will usually be aimed at either including a core mechanic not yet in the game (diplomacy as an example) or improving on what we currently have (such as Memory Alpha upgrades).

    I think it will be about a year from now when we have all core mechanics in place, and probably a year after that until we have them fleshed out and robust enough that a User Generated Content system make sense and we can finally give Star Trek gaming the treatment it truly deserves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    dacatchman wrote: »
    You kind of just described the "problem" with MMOs though?

    New patch comes out, people zoom through it, then the loop continues... ?

    Surely, no other game suffers that fate?

    that is the major problem, that is why we need stuff that we can repeat that will keep us entertained.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    that is the major problem, that is why we need stuff that we can repeat that will keep us entertained.
    Repeating things doesn't keep you entertained. You "repeat" Exploration Missions all the time. Are you entertained, or are you bored with EMs and looking for something else now? Most people I know are bored with EMs and looking for something different. There's no such thing as something that's repeatable that can keep you entertained indefinitely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    Repeating things doesn't keep you entertained. You "repeat" Exploration Missions all the time. Are you entertained, or are you bored with EMs and looking for something else now? Most people I know are bored with EMs and looking for something different.

    let me fix that, we need a missions that like exploration that is enhanced to keep us entertained, not the same thing but the some type of thing. see what I'm saying.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    There is a lot of talk of this great season 2.0 on the forums, and I keep on getting a lot of D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    faymar wrote:
    I'm a new MMO player and hardly hardcore....but I can't wrap my head around folks already running out of content...I think it's a case of Cryptic will never be able to produce enough content to satisfy some players, but the real question is what’s being produced enough for your 14.99 a month? In my and most other folks I know who are playing the answer is yes...but your mileage may vary.

    I look at what you get for 50 cents a day instead of 14.95 a month. as for hardcore players I still can't understand how they got to RA5 so fast, I'm only commander 4.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think Patch 2.0 is getting ahead of ourselves. The entire structure of space combat is changing in the next patch. There will be forum backlash from that.

    There is a storm coming. And 2.0 is too far in the distance to worry about right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Will 2.0 please everyone?
    I doubt it.

    Will 2.0 have as many missions as Feds had at launch?
    Unlikely but possible. (see stowiki for a list of storyline episodes - there's 42-48, depending on if you include all the tutorial mission; many episodes there are just 2nd or 3rd acts to a single story).

    Will 2.0 provide something for everyone to do?
    Yes.

    Will 2.0 provide customization options, especially for KDF?
    Yes.

    Are we receiving content between then and now?
    Yes.

    Is this the last Season up-date?
    No.

    Will ship interiors be all that we imagine?
    No.

    Will ship interiors be a welcome addition?
    Yes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I am stealing Darren_Kitlors post because his answeres are very similar to mine... I would have just expanded upon them.

    Will 2.0 please everyone?
    I know it won't... some people are very hard to please.

    Will 2.0 have as many missions as Feds had at launch?
    I think they will have more to do, but unless they already had Klingon missions part way done from before launch... I don't really think they had enough time to make the same number of new missions for Klingons that they had at launch for the Federation.

    Will 2.0 provide something for everyone to do?
    Yes, it will... but there will always be those who refuse to do the new stuff because they don't agree it fits in the game... or some other crazy reason I can't think of.

    Will 2.0 provide customization options, especially for KDF?
    Yes, the art department can pump out some good stuff fast... so I definitely think they will have new customization stuff for the KDF... will it be C-Store only... I really hope not.

    Are we receiving content between then and now?
    Yes.

    Is this the last Season up-date?
    No.

    Will ship interiors be all that we imagine?
    No. If they were, they would be the most magical and horrifying place ever conceived by man... think about it... the conflicting imaginations of every subscriber... it would be like the most horrible acid trip anyone has ever had.

    Will ship interiors be a welcome addition?
    Yes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Many have stated that 2.0's problem will stem from players "outplaying" the content produced in the patch. My contention, and belief that 2.0 will make or break STO, is it's ability for players to "play". What I mean is it will give players those small touches, those illusions of immersion, that will make replayable portions of this game enjoyable again. Functional ship interiors, dabo/poker, "F" alternative mini-games. That combined with a Diplomacy system (which will hopefully employ previously mentioned "mini-games") and updated exploration system will allow users to play without dev-scripted content. Heck, even dev-scripted content will last longer for those that have not started a Klink...ME!

    If these fail, then so goes STO, IMHO...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    jakeeyes wrote: »
    Many have stated that 2.0's problem will stem from players "outplaying" the content produced in the patch. My contention, and belief that 2.0 will make or break STO, is it's ability for players to "play". What I mean is it will give players those small touches, those illusions of immersion, that will make replayable portions of this game enjoyable again. Functional ship interiors, dabo/poker, "F" alternative mini-games. That combined with a Diplomacy system (which will hopefully employ previously mentioned "mini-games") and updated exploration system will allow users to play without dev-scripted content. Heck, even dev-scripted content will last longer for those that have not started a Klink...ME!

    If these fail, then so goes STO, IMHO...

    There are occasional misions in Klingon Exploration content with no scripts, no popups. Unfortunately they are even more basic in nature and only add to the repetitous rinse and repeat feeling of STO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kirkfat wrote: »
    I pretty much share your reasoned pessimism. When we were in OB, everyone prayed for the release day patch. After release date, all hope was put into the 45 day patch and then season 1, and now season 2.

    I really don't see anything in season 2 that will be a game changer. Even if they do all of it flawlessly, it will still be too little too late. Most of the stuff that you have hope for... well... it's still a lot of minor changes that don't significantly rehabilitate the game.

    Sorry if I sound like a prophet of doom, but I really can't see how season 2 will do much to "quell the haters." On the other hand, something like user-gen-content could solve all of the game's content problems, as well as many of the player's complaints.

    Even then, it's something that they're probably developing with NWN in mind, to be retroactively applied to STO.

    If it helps Coderanger is working on a UGC system right now, he says he had a somewhat functional version but it didn't work right so he's making major changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    faymar wrote:
    I'm a new MMO player and hardly hardcore....but I can't wrap my head around folks already running out of content...I think it's a case of Cryptic will never be able to produce enough content to satisfy some players, but the real question is what’s being produced enough for your 14.99 a month? In my and most other folks I know who are playing the answer is yes...but your mileage may vary.

    I've been playing MMO's since 2001, and there will always be that % of players that plows through content.
    I play anywhere from an hour to 2 and a half a day after work (depending on how sleepy I get, I'm getting old and naps are fun :D), maybe do a nice 6 to 8 hours on my second day off if I don't have anything planned.

    Like Forrest Gump said "My Momma always said MMO's are like a box of chocolates, if you gobble it all in one sitting, you only have yourself to blame, you greedy TRIBBLE".

    Been here about 6 weeks, highest charactor is a Captain 7.

    It's an MMO thing, a good portion of people want to "finish" as fast as they can, then whine about having nothing to do.

    15 bucks a months...that's a solo movie with snacks, a CD, a cheaper DVD......certainly getting more entertainment per dollar here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    There are occasional misions in Klingon Exploration content with no scripts, no popups. Unfortunately they are even more basic in nature and only add to the repetitous rinse and repeat feeling of STO.

    Exactly why I haven't started a Klingon Alt. I'm hoping the scripted Klingon content will be worth playing, giving me (and all the other PvP carebears) a reason to jump into the "other" faction. If it is, that's double the content! If not...

    :(
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