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Because sector-space doesn't make sense...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
My major issue with STO since i started playing at pre-launch has been that the game world seems very limited. Basically the galaxy is made out of 20ish square boxes if you are federation and a lot less if you are klingon. This is sector-space, an abstract layer of space (warp?) you use to travel between star systems. It makes the galaxy seem very small when seemingly all star systems are located in these boxes. Another point to note here is that your ship behaves differently in sector-space, if you are a cruiser, can you really
turn faster at warp? Abstract warp? All in all my point is that sector space doesn't make sense.

If the only purpose of sector space is to serve as an abstration for warp travel time and also be a place to form groups i suggest you remove, yes delete sector-space and use the interior of your ship to navigate the galaxy like a real star fleet captain, after all no starfleet ship would go to warp unless the captain sits in his chair and says "Engage!". And unless you want to do STF you probably rely on the auto-team functionality anyways.

So instead of traveling through sector space, when exiting earth orbit you would find yourself sitting in the captains chair. Easily accessible on your right hand is navigation control, this can be done in many ways, interacting with the panel, issuing an order etc, the effect would be that you bring up a star chart where you can plot a course. To travel there you press "engage", your captain would then do a signature move and before you have time to run into your ready room you are at warp.

But captain we have no mission! Conveniently comms is also available from your command chair. This can work the same way as it is, hail starfleet and accept a mission. You could then change course and intercept at the end of the dialouge or repeat the engage thing. So in stead of "manually" navigating through series of abstract space boxes to get to your location your ship would now fly in a straight line while you can walk/beam around your ship and do captain stuff. After all, all you do in sector-space is wait for autopilot to get you there. I'd rather just sit in the captain chair and watch some chat channel, honestly im probably going to be tabbed out.

But this time can be spent in a lot more meaningfull in-game way. There are numerous activities that can be added to your ship.

Captain's ready room:
A place to store trophies, talk to starfleet, view logs, mail, database etc.

Astrometrics:
This is where you would go first when you want to explore space more efficiently. Where the random exploration systems we got now could be accesses by setting a course to a random star, astrometrics could be used to locate more speciffic systems. Perhaps give us a way to select what kind of mission you would get, scan anomaly, aid the planet, secure system, patrol, investigate planet etc.

Holodeck:
As a start i would like to at least see an ability to spawn an enemy of your choice, 3 or 7 if you wish in space or on ground and then have the ability to fight it. Just as a way to simulate enemies to test combat strategies, equipment, dps and what not.

Engineering:
Repair your ship injuries.

Sickbay:
Heal your personal or team injuries.

Surely there are a lot of things that can be added to this list like replicators for crafting, cargo bay extension, etc., the few suggesstions i have added are just to explain how existing game mechanincs can be incorporated in a way that makes more sense in a star trek universe.

Eventually as you stumble over a bulkhead on your way to the bridge you get a message over the comms "Captain! We have arrived at Vorn System". You would then have the option to enter the system. Now "finally" you see your ship come in from warp. In some missions you should now find your ship in high orbit around a planet, here you would also see other captains' ships who have traveled here to do the mission. Perhaps it is a bit exessive to add this to more than STF's and fleet actions. All the current sector blocks could be replaced by a supply station complete with exterior/interior facilities. Most players would probably use this as a base when operating in its sector.

Another benefit from interacting with your ship during transit to a system is that it is easier to make sure you can join an open team, just increase the travel time for people in-route.

Diplomatic missions would also easily tie into this, it would simply be initiated by interacting with the viewscreen on the bridge or in your ready room. And since most missions are started while you are interacting with your ship some diplomacy missions could end up with you being boarded and having to fight if diplomacy fails.

But this thread is about removing sector space, is it plausible?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Your scenario does sound good on paper - very "Star Trek" in terms of consistency with the show.

    However, it requires the game to either (a) effectively run both a ground mission and a space mission simultaneously, by allowing you to roam your ship while still tracking your position, velocity, and heading within the galaxy, or (b) dispensing with "actual" travel altogether, and having the game use a simple timer to determine when you reach your destination.

    As (a) would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to implement, let's go with option (b). We can now roam our ship while en route to our destination, but we now lack:

    - The ability to see and chat with other players in the sector (I would argue this is a very important aspect of any MMO);

    - The ability to get attacked by enemy signal contacts (I know some people don't like them, but I like the opportunity for unexpected events to occur, even if I don't always stay to fight it out); and

    - The ability for other unexpected events to occur en route, such as receiving a distress call or some other "spontaneous" mission (granted, there are only a handful of these at this time).

    As with many things, there's an obvious trade-off to be made here. You may think it's worthwhile, others may not. Personally, I'd rather stick with the Sector Space concept, but give it a graphical overhaul. I prefer being able to see my location in 3D space to the ability to play what is essentially a single-player game while I wait.

    Your mileage may, of course, vary. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Jeff-El wrote:
    However, it requires the game to either (a) effectively run both a ground mission and a space mission simultaneously, by allowing you to roam your ship while still tracking your position, velocity, and heading within the galaxy,
    ---
    - The ability to see and chat with other players in the sector (I would argue this is a very important aspect of any MMO);

    - The ability to get attacked by enemy signal contacts (I know some people don't like them, but I like the opportunity for unexpected events to occur, even if I don't always stay to fight it out); and

    - The ability for other unexpected events to occur en route, such as receiving a distress call or some other "spontaneous" mission (granted, there are only a handful of these at this time).

    Having some programming experience i dont see how it would be hard to have a ground mission and a space mission running at the same time. The space mission in my proposal would merely be a dot on a galaxy map.

    You would see chat at starbases, outside starbases or supply hubs, and in orbit around fleet actions and STF's. This is just a start, ideally i'd like to see whole starsystems with multiple planets.

    Missions en-route could simply be offered over the comm, the same way starting any other mission would work, or in a more discret way.

    Random encounters could still be there perhaps as mini-missions you get over the comm. Definately have to consider those more, thanks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    jimbk wrote:
    Having some programming experience i dont see how it would be hard to have a ground mission and a space mission running at the same time.
    Fine. You build the game engine which allows that to be done. And show your work. I expect to see fully functional, supported and documented source coding posted in this thread by TOMORROW.
    jimbk wrote:
    Having some programming experience
    Good luck with that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Fact- Bridgeview- have the bridege officers silohettes in front of the view sceen

    Fact- Have the sector map come up on the view screen when you hit the map button and pretend your tactical officer is Data and you are on "generations" and you can look at the map and try to kill malcom mcdowel

    Fact- Have flying around like it is when you are around planets

    Fact- Less is more- start deleting stuff- namely the transparent blue roads to heaven or whatever they are

    the evidence is clear
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My beef with sector space is the pretty "highways" between some of the planets. Why are they there?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Majosea wrote: »
    My beef with sector space is the pretty "highways" between some of the planets. Why are they there?

    I always figured they were supposed to represent the transwarp network...but there aren't gateways in any of the systems, and the gateway to Gamma Orionis doesn't connect to a "highway," so...I have no clue. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My guess is they are 'trade routes'... at least in sirius sector. I notice all the fed runabouts and cargo ships fly along these 'roads'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My guess is they are 'trade routes'... at least in sirius sector. I notice all the fed runabouts and cargo ships fly along these 'roads'.

    Correct. They are indeed trade routes throughout each sector.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Sector Space can remain as it is...a 3D Astrometrics mock up of the area. It has its purpose and it can fulful that purpose as it is(with some additional features added)...but as the OP said, dont force us to travel in that mock up.

    Let us use Sector Space to see whats around as needed/as desired, but give us the option to actually travel through the sector from the Bridge(like the OP said).

    Instead of having me "drive" through sectors, expanses/nebulas, like Im at the wheel of my car..let me set a course and have the ship navigate me to the destination on auto-pilot...while I enjoy the journey from my Bridge.

    As we warp through the area, I'd be content with just streaks of a stars flying by on the screen in a simple loop. Provide a over head map drop down to allow me to see contacts/anamolies, NPCs and other players, teammates, fleet mates, etc.

    If I want or need more in-depth awareness and info about anything seen on the overhead mini-map, I can go to the current Sector Space and be provided additional, advanced interation features.

    This would remove the feeling of playing "whack-a-mole", or a street side shell game, or the feeling of being a rat searching unde rocks for morsels of content during explorer missions(Azlesa Expanse, T'Ong and the other nebulas and Empire Defense areas, etc.)

    Contacts/Anamolies/Signatures, etc used to enter the various missions in these areas could be announced by the Science Officer..or whatever appropriate BO, as they populate just before becoming visible on the mini-map or Sector space. If multiple are going to pop, the alert can just say there are multiple.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Unfortunately, I don't understand sector space at all. We can't be at warp, does anyone know why?

    "Faster than light, no left and right."

    You can not turn while at warp.

    Sector space is just a mess (In my opinion) Though I can't think of a "non boring" (my opinion) way of having warp speed space. It would basically be point, click, wait. Of course you could walk around on the "interiors" during the flight. But if they do that they might as well remove the outside view, I mean it would serve no purpose.

    Anyway, can't turn at warp. So sector space is not a "true" representation of warp speed.

    (EDIT To put foot in mouth)
    This episode first establishes the Starfleet guideline "Faster than light, no left or right" or "Maintain a linear trajectory wherever possible while at warp speed". This is the only episode in any of the modern Trek series to place a restriction on the movement of a vessel at warp speed. Consequently, this is the only episode where a starship is not able to maneuver at warp speeds.
    Voyager: "Fury"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It's also been pretty well-established that ships can't/shouldn't go to warp while inside a star system (it was a 5 or 6 hour impulse flight from DS9 to Bajor, for example), but I'm pretty happy that the game has done away with that particular piece of canon. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Jeff-El wrote:
    It's also been pretty well-established that ships can't/shouldn't go to warp while inside a star system (it was a 5 or 6 hour impulse flight from DS9 to Bajor, for example), but I'm pretty happy that the game has done away with that particular piece of canon. :D

    Actually I assumed it was due to it being "war time", though I confess I do not know the faux rules behind federation wars.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Actually I assumed it was due to it being "war time", though I confess I do not know the faux rules behind federation wars.

    It was SOP on Deep Space Nine in the early seasons as well, before the war ever started.

    What I can't recall is whether they explicitly stated this "rule" on-screen, or if it was just implied by the fact that they never did it. At most, I suspect there's one or two episodes where they discuss how risky it is, and then go to warp while inside a star system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My understanding is that you can turn at warp, but its gentle turns with massivly wide sweeping arcs...much too inefficient.

    Consider this, in excess of Mach 3, the SR-71 would have such a large turning radius, that if it was flying east to west and started a course reversal(i believe this at a standard rate turn of 3 degs per sec) over Los Angeles by tuirning north, it would be over San Francisco before it was facing the other direction. It would be much better off pointing itself on its desired course at much lower speeds before initiating its supersonic flight regime.

    Now, on the Sector map, our turns look tight because the scale has been compressed. The turns we see are over a mucg larger area of distance...and likly time too. Considering it takes light years by the maps own distance calculations to make the turn. if you could sit on a planet and watch these turns through a telecope, you'd likly see a very wide and sweeping, maybe barely even perceptible turn in some cases, unless viewed over time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    cocoa-jin wrote: »
    Consider this, in excess of Mach 3, the SR-71 would have such a large turning radius...
    Well, there are two problems with this (Just from my limited perspective).

    1: We are in space, so the effects on the "star ship" versus the "air ship" would be different.

    2: At Mach 3 the SR-71 is not creating a subspace field around itself, essentially bending space-time or "warping" it around the ship. In essence it brings things in front of the ship closer, and pushes things behind the ship farther away. (Remember, limited perspective) So technically the star ship is not moving but the space around it is.

    EDIT (To Add)
    Man that was terrible, here:

    There is a fly flying inside of your car, your car is going 55 miles an hour. Is the fly's "turn radius" limited by going 55 miles an hour?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    There is a fly flying inside of your car, your car is going 55 miles an hour. Is the fly's "turn radius" limited by going 55 miles an hour?

    Yes, in the sense that it's ability to change the direction of the car is limited.

    Meh, Star Trek is so inconsistent about whether things like combat are even occuring at warp or sub-light that there is no way you can say anything about its 'rules'.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Jeff-El wrote:
    It was SOP on Deep Space Nine in the early seasons as well, before the war ever started.

    What I can't recall is whether they explicitly stated this "rule" on-screen, or if it was just implied by the fact that they never did it. At most, I suspect there's one or two episodes where they discuss how risky it is, and then go to warp while inside a star system.

    I always assume that it was either because of the risk of warping into a planet/moon/asteroid or that the gravity of the planet/moon/asteroid would somehow interfere. I think that the first mention that it was dangerous was in TNG.

    Another reason I just thought of is that repeatedly going to warp near a planet could damage the planet, probably its atmosphere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Naevius wrote:
    Yes, in the sense that it's ability to change the direction of the car is limited.

    But the "Car" is the subspace bubble in my example. The "fly" is the star ship.

    The fly can turn 360 degrees with no resistance due to speed/etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    But the "Car" is the subspace bubble in my example. The "fly" is the star ship.

    The fly can turn 360 degrees with no resistance due to speed/etc.

    Because the air its flying and you the observer are all moving together, you only see the fly's flight track relative to your "stationary" position and the relative "stationary"(to you) air its flying in.

    But then again, you severly limit the ability to fully see the relationship from an outside observer since you cant have the insect fly outside the car.

    Now, my uninformed thought on the matter is that even though ships move the universe around it, there still seems to be some relative motion within/relative to some fluid around the ship. If its a fluid, it likly has a less than perfect efficiency...there will be a bit of slop. I'd assume the faster you move the fluid, the less efficient and the more slop you get. It doesnt matter if the fluid moves around you or you move through it...the relativity of the object/fluid interaction is the same.

    Its like an airfoil. You can get the airfoil to to create its asymeterical displacement to produce the locomotive force to pull/move the airfoil/object through the fluid. It doesnt matter if you move the airfoil in the fluid to create the asymeterical disturbance that produces the "lift"(wing)/propulsion(prop)...or if you move the fluid around the airfoil/object...you still cant bend the fluid or displace the object from thier path very easily...the faster you do it, the harder it is.

    A warp bubble(energy field...charged?) seems to do to sub-space/the fabric of space-time, what an ionic water jet or a magentized airfoil would by pulling the fluid its in through or around itself to produce force/propulsion.

    Changing direction is going to be relative to the fluid the object is traveling in...since we the observer are stuck(more or less stationary...especially compared to the warping ship) in the fluid, the change of direction would be like the ship moving through space...if we could actually percieve it.

    Thats my take...its in no way perfectly sound...its just the best I can get to piece the situtation together.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Assuming sector-space is supposed to be a representation of your ship at warp and assuming that slight adjustments left or right is ok, sector-space is still out of scale. Or rather your ship is way bigger than it should be. Star systems in sector-space also look more like markers on a 3d map, but the fact that ship movement in there is similar to what you would see inside a regular system, this makes sector-space look like a crossbreed between a map and a "realistic" representation.

    Removing sector space would not remove zone chat it would just mean that players will hang out at a star base in that sector in stead.

    Using the bridge and the interior of your ship while traveling will also give us an incentive to actually use the bridge and perhaps even upgrade it at the c-store...:eek:

    But removing sector-space would also remove the DSE (deep space encounters). Frankly i have heard nothing but frustration. It seems you are sucked into them when you just want to get your group to a mission and when you want want them they are suddenly gone.

    I suggest using a system where players would seek out these encounters rather than have them be random distractions. Perhaps convert the DSE into encounters you can scan for in your astrometrics lab or just random missions from starfleet where you have to go to a location and stop an enemy incursion. The variety of these missions is another story and is something they should look into wether sector-space is ever rewamped or not.
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