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Cryptic it's been what, three tries? And you still cannot get it right

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited June 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I understand why you did it, some players were complaining about queuing for a match and getting thrown into an ongoing game rather than a brand new instance. You fixed this with the option to "queue for any" and "queue for new". It should have stopped there.

But now the instances seem to close after the first two minutes. What, I ask, was the point?

This is compounded by another 'fix' - some players complained about an opposing team joining a match, and exiting. Your solution was to prevent people from exiting. I have issues with this that I won't bother to address here fully (suffice to say there are times you want to leave, to allow another player to take your place, to remove yourself from a bugged state, or to rejoin a new and fair game when yours did not fill properly).

So you see the problem: You have created a situation where when a map is created but not filled (that is, when five or more for a team are queued but fewer than those five actually enter the map), there is no way for additional players to join, and no way for trapped players to leave.

The only way out is to accept a loss, and allow the enemy to kill you as many times as the map requires. For ground matches this means 40 consecutive stomach-churning deaths that you could not prevent. All to have the chance of getting dealt a fairer hand when you queue again, if you haven't learned your lesson, I suppose. Alternatively, players have to exit the client for 15 minutes. This is a grave inconvenience to say the least.

This series of decisions will kill the longer pvp maps. And if there's any pattern to these poor (and they are poor) solutions, I'd anticipate your next move is to shorten all the maps. Let me just advise in advance to leave that option be.

I do hope you see the problem you've created. I hope I've accomplished that much. If there is any inclination to come up with a real fix, I hope you take the following into consideration:

1) Players do not want to have their characters die meaningless deaths. Certainly not all in order to be allowed to leave a map when they could be doing something else. And when you are mismatched, that is all you currently allow them to do.
2) Players do not want to have to wait 15 minutes to re-enter the game. Not unless it's due to maintenance.
3) There must be some way for people to join an ongoing game if they themselves elect to do so - and the "queue for new game/queue for any game" options allow this perfectly - except that after the first few minutes of progress, the instance is closed, and selecting "queue for any game" will never admit you (the queue will actually disappear on your screen).
4) None of your fixes address the most serious, most grievous offense in pvp that is currently able to take place, and that offense is leaching, which is a player joining a map, dying, and not respawning or communicating on purpose in order to collect the reward (especially dailies in salvage operation).

And when you do have a fix for #4, please consult us players before you make (1-3) even worse than they are now (and it is pretty unfortunate right now). For instance, do not institute a spawn timer to fix leaching - not unless you replace the Abort Mission option for those players legitimately waiting for a full group to come in.

There are not many who are affected by this, it doesn't hurt to ask the few active players (at least for ground maps this is true) you've got.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Don't worry, with 4+ hour wait times to join ANYTHING (getting longer by the day) during off peak hours, PvP will be a non-issue very soon.
    Problem FIXED!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I've got gripes in this area as well.

    I don't really ground PvP, so I can't speak to that. I do know that in space PvP, players can join within the first 2 minutes of the match and it seems to open up again after about 15 minutes. Don't ask me why. Doesn't really help much if you have players drop in when you're already down by umpteen points in an unbalanced PvP match, imho.

    I agree completely with your suggestions. And Cryptic took down the option to drop from matches while they figure out how to implement a penalty for doing so. They appear to be taking their sweet time. My question is, "Why?" Why not wait until they actually have the drop penalty in place instead of TRIBBLE up the existing PvP system? I imagine many heated debates over the new penalty system taking place in a Cryptic conference room somewhere in the sky. Probablly too optimistic of me...

    To your point #4, I'd suggested in another thread that Cryptic add some sort of abuse-proof "kick player from team" vote option to weed out those leechers you mention. Again, it would have to be abuse-proof, which would be difficult to implement, I admit. Thoughts?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The queue system is completely screwed. Simple fix: Don't start a round until all players are on the map and the teams are full on both sides. Penalize people for leaving rounds by not being able to queue for awhile.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The queue system is completely screwed. Simple fix: Don't start a round until all players are on the map and the teams are full on both sides. Penalize people for leaving rounds by not being able to queue for awhile.
    __________________
    Vidoka Miyonus - Science Officer - RA5 - Ground Debuff - DPS & Debuff - Fleet Escort

    ____________________

    that is what WOW does and it works well. The queues are horrible! There will be four of each side waiting for a match and the match starts and there will be three on one team and one on another! I liked it better before these last changes. I think the solution is to get rid of the new buttons for new and any pvp match, let people leave the matches but make them "Deserters" like WOW does where they can't sign up for another pvp match for fifteen minutes.

    People should be happy to join a match that is almost over!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    LuckyJim wrote:
    I understand why you did it, some players were complaining about queuing for a match and getting thrown into an ongoing game rather than a brand new instance. You fixed this with the option to "queue for any" and "queue for new". It should have stopped there.

    But now the instances seem to close after the first two minutes. What, I ask, was the point?

    This is compounded by another 'fix' - some players complained about an opposing team joining a match, and exiting. Your solution was to prevent people from exiting. I have issues with this that I won't bother to address here fully (suffice to say there are times you want to leave, to allow another player to take your place, to remove yourself from a bugged state, or to rejoin a new and fair game when yours did not fill properly).

    So you see the problem: You have created a situation where when a map is created but not filled (that is, when five or more for a team are queued but fewer than those five actually enter the map), there is no way for additional players to join, and no way for trapped players to leave.

    The only way out is to accept a loss, and allow the enemy to kill you as many times as the map requires. For ground matches this means 40 consecutive stomach-churning deaths that you could not prevent. All to have the chance of getting dealt a fairer hand when you queue again, if you haven't learned your lesson, I suppose. Alternatively, players have to exit the client for 15 minutes. This is a grave inconvenience to say the least.

    This series of decisions will kill the longer pvp maps. And if there's any pattern to these poor (and they are poor) solutions, I'd anticipate your next move is to shorten all the maps. Let me just advise in advance to leave that option be.

    I do hope you see the problem you've created. I hope I've accomplished that much. If there is any inclination to come up with a real fix, I hope you take the following into consideration:

    1) Players do not want to have their characters die meaningless deaths. Certainly not all in order to be allowed to leave a map when they could be doing something else. And when you are mismatched, that is all you currently allow them to do.
    2) Players do not want to have to wait 15 minutes to re-enter the game. Not unless it's due to maintenance.
    3) There must be some way for people to join an ongoing game if they themselves elect to do so - and the "queue for new game/queue for any game" options allow this perfectly - except that after the first few minutes of progress, the instance is closed, and selecting "queue for any game" will never admit you (the queue will actually disappear on your screen).
    4) None of your fixes address the most serious, most grievous offense in pvp that is currently able to take place, and that offense is leaching, which is a player joining a map, dying, and not respawning or communicating on purpose in order to collect the reward (especially dailies in salvage operation).

    And when you do have a fix for #4, please consult us players before you make (1-3) even worse than they are now (and it is pretty unfortunate right now). For instance, do not institute a spawn timer to fix leaching - not unless you replace the Abort Mission option for those players legitimately waiting for a full group to come in.

    There are not many who are affected by this, it doesn't hurt to ask the few active players (at least for ground maps this is true) you've got.

    What he said!!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I love it when you are stuck in a match with one person on the other team that won't respawn....or even better...NO other team. Been stuck in an empty match for 20 mins before just logging on another toon. Oh and people still leave...they just log other toons now...really can't figure out how this was ever a good idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It really was poorly thought out and executed since you don't even have to log out and you can still exit the match. I get leaving when someone won't respawn or there isn't anyone there but the people who leave just because it is unevenly queued make no sense. They waited through weak queue's to land themselves in a lopsided match so instead of trying their best they spare their ego's and leave to reenter the weak queue's to land themselves in... you get the picture. Get over yourselves and play right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Yeah I will try my best if outnumbered...I have won matches being outnumbered before too so I know that it can be done. If it's really bad it is still quicker to just run and die 40 times than wait 15 minutes and you at least get points and such for it so leaving seems really stupid unless you have too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    All these problems would not exist if when called for a PvP match, people actually went. And stayed till the end even if they are getting beaten.

    But no, the PvP playerbase demands the right to TRIBBLE up other players and moan if Cryptic tries to mitigate their selfishness.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES FIX THE QUEUES .


    I love being outnumbered, it's a real challenge. I've won as the 1 vs 5 in Space and Ground and they were honestly some of the best experiences I've had in STO. But it is clearly a bloody awful queue system that not only makes you wait 30 minutes for a game to start, but that when it does eventually start, the teams are uneven and nobody has any fun.

    Pathetic, Crypitc. Sort it out!!!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    These threads are stupid. Here's why: you can't implement a technical solution to a non-technical problem. The problem isn't that the current system of queuing is poorly implemented (though it certainly is) but rather than the total number of players PvPing is not large enough to provide a viable pool of candidates for all of the different PvP maps currently available.

    Either change the queue system so that it's "Capture and Hold" or "Arena", and allow random generation of suitable maps (i.e. 5v5 arena cracked planetoid, or 10v10 fvk cap and hold) intelligently according to what's in the queue, or find a way to get about 50k more players to PvP. WoW's system works because they have a massive population of players PvPing. That is a relatively recent thing that came with cross-server battlegrounds. Prior to that, one faction often had hour-long or worse queues for the popular map.

    The point is, if it's a population problem where there simply aren't enough people PvPing, then no system can possibly fix it. If, on the other hand, it's caused by the fact that you can independently queue for only 3 of more than a dozen possible PvP map choices, then the obvious answer is to make a better and simpler system.

    Implement intelligent matchmaking with a limited number of initial options (5v5 vs 10v10, arena vs cap and hold, fvf or fvk) and let the system take care of starting matches on an appropriate map. It's always seemed stupid to me that you queue for a map instead of a game type. In WoW they are conjoined so it doesn't matter, but here it feels backwards.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Get rid of the ability to que up individually! Make it so you have to que up as a team... that is what is lacking in this game.... any sort of team structure until RA5. Make it so you have to find a team then que up... then problem of having unbalanced teams is gone... and if finding a team for pvp is hard... make an instance that you can transwarp to where pvp people gather to get teams... TADAAAAAAAAAAAaa fixed.... the whole mmorpg without teams thing is cryptics udder fail in this game. It has a total not mmo... rpg feel... Guildwars did it right with pvp IMO Get a team before then pvp... no unbalanced teams... then if one or two people leave not a big deal at all... cause you will be mostly balanced... It would also promote different builds... instead of "lets see how ell I can solo" builds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    That's basically the worst idea ever.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    TyBushman wrote:
    Get rid of the ability to que up individually! Make it so you have to que up as a team... that is what is lacking in this game.... any sort of team structure until RA5. Make it so you have to find a team then que up... then problem of having unbalanced teams is gone... and if finding a team for pvp is hard... make an instance that you can transwarp to where pvp people gather to get teams... TADAAAAAAAAAAAaa fixed.... the whole mmorpg without teams thing is cryptics udder fail in this game. It has a total not mmo... rpg feel... Guildwars did it right with pvp IMO Get a team before then pvp... no unbalanced teams... then if one or two people leave not a big deal at all... cause you will be mostly balanced... It would also promote different builds... instead of "lets see how ell I can solo" builds.

    That's... really not the solution.

    Personally, I like the option to jump into a PvP match by myself. I enjoy the whole PuG dynamic. In fact, I prefer to solo almost everything in the game. I almost always join a group when i get in the match, but I honestly prefer the ability to choose.

    I strongly dislike content that forces me to group up; hence the reason that I'll probably never run an STF mission. Sometimes I like to group up, other times I don't.

    And besides that, your solution wouldn't alleviate the problem that we have here anyway: The problem is that we're able to queue up for three matches, and you don't have to join any of them. So when the queue system reaches the min players waiting on each side, if someone doesn't enter, you end up with uneven teams and after two minutes, the match locks everybody else out, (to keep people from joining a match that's so far out of balance that they'll automatically lose) so no one else can enter to even up the teams anyway.

    Add to that the fact that you can't leave a match, and you have a recipe for constantly imbalanced teams and relatively boring PvP, that has no consequences on the game at large.

    There won't be a satisfactory solution as long as we're relegated to fighting in arenas, using a queue to "sign up" to PvP. This worked great in CO, where superhero combat is particularly suited to arena-style matches, but not in a shooting war between two super-power nations inhabiting the same corner of the galaxy.

    The answer is true, factional, open PvP, based in the Eta Iridani sector (to start, new sector blocks to fight over can be added later). If we're forced into instanced fighting, then I suggest we take some lessons from Pirates of the Burning Sea. There was a lot wrong with that game, but open RvR PvP was, in my opinion, something they got right, from the nation to nation dynamic to the actual ship to ship combat.

    And before the PvEers start bashing, I suggest that all PvE-only content be removed from the sector. There isn't that much anyway. This would clear the way for a Fed owned, neutral and Klingon owned sectors, with a starbase at each end.

    Add some PvE support missions (with the risk of being intercepted by players from the other side), to run blockades, deliver supplies or medicines, to building defenses, maybe some way to construct fleet-owned stations... and if you enter the sector block, you're PvP flagged. If you don't want to PvP, don't go there. :)

    Anyway, that's what PvP needs, at least in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    These threads are stupid. Here's why: you can't implement a technical solution to a non-technical problem. The problem isn't that the current system of queuing is poorly implemented (though it certainly is) but rather than the total number of players PvPing is not large enough to provide a viable pool of candidates for all of the different PvP maps currently available.

    Either change the queue system so that it's "Capture and Hold" or "Arena", and allow random generation of suitable maps (i.e. 5v5 arena cracked planetoid, or 10v10 fvk cap and hold) intelligently according to what's in the queue, or find a way to get about 50k more players to PvP. WoW's system works because they have a massive population of players PvPing. That is a relatively recent thing that came with cross-server battlegrounds. Prior to that, one faction often had hour-long or worse queues for the popular map.

    The point is, if it's a population problem where there simply aren't enough people PvPing, then no system can possibly fix it. If, on the other hand, it's caused by the fact that you can independently queue for only 3 of more than a dozen possible PvP map choices, then the obvious answer is to make a better and simpler system.

    Implement intelligent matchmaking with a limited number of initial options (5v5 vs 10v10, arena vs cap and hold, fvf or fvk) and let the system take care of starting matches on an appropriate map. It's always seemed stupid to me that you queue for a map instead of a game type. In WoW they are conjoined so it doesn't matter, but here it feels backwards.

    Yup, those are some good improvements. There is really no reason to have 20 or so different queues when only 30 or so players on either side are PvPing at any one time, especially when you can only join a maximum of 3 queues at a time.

    Another would be to lower the threshold at which games begin, to 2 players instead of 5, or even 1 (like in most FPSs, where there is just a server and people join when they want).

    Another would be to up the upper limit from 5 or 10 to 15 or 20 per side, and allow players to join half way through. Again, this is more like FPS servers.

    And, again, just like FPS servers, if the player limit was upped, instead of booting people and making them requeue, have a "map rotation" that would by default keep you in the game, with an option to leave whenever you want.

    They could do so many things to improve it. I'm sure some smart people can point out problems with the above, but they could also figure out ways around those problems too. It's not hard -- it just requires a little bit of will from Cryptic to look into it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited June 2010
    ahhhhh.........

    If open pvp had been designed and implemented in the beginning (sigh)
    This wouldnt have ever been a problem.
    Other games that did PVP, even "arena" style did it much better.
    I don't look at WoW as the proper example, but more Dark Age of Camelot, Open large PERSISTANT pvp regions, you entered at any time and had to go to where the action was. Even in the arena style battlegrounds that was the case.
    These fish bowl arena style of first one to 21 type match are the inherent(sp?) problem.

    But oh well.....they speak as though they may change it towards the fall..but it like all other things.....speculation.
    We have what we have and yes we hope for more, but its the present style and system of pvp that is the true downfall and source of FAIL.

    Just my 2 EC's
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