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Memory Alpha Conversion (old to new)

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I was able to build all items in Memory Aplha prior to the patch. Now I have to unlock these exact same items AGAIN even tho I was able to craft them before?

I reported that allready on Tribble and the usual "your feedback is heard bla bla from dev side... now this went live and still I cant build the same items as before. Its not anything new to gain its the same item with new receipts so I doubt I should have to unlock the exact same items again even if they change the receipts I allready unlocked that stuff. :mad:

Am I special bugged or is it what the Cryptic guys think it should be?
Lets regrind players because of lack of other content? :(
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Why even bother. Daily items are better and can be obtained much easier. Memory Alpha is still an afterthought.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    They just hate you. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Why even bother. Daily items are better and can be obtained much easier. Memory Alpha is still an afterthought.

    I guess they will build up new items later.. but why do I have to regrind to get access to the exact same items as before?

    It cant be that hard to give old chars enough XP in the convertion to have access to the same items as before :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Obi wrote:
    I guess they will build up new items later.. but why do I have to regrind to get access to the exact same items as before?

    It cant be that hard to give old chars enough XP in the convertion to have access to the same items as before :confused:

    the discussion thread about the new system (upgraded) was that they wont do any bigger revamps yet, they will do it in stages.

    This is the first stage.
    So we will probably see more changes and higher level items etc.

    About the loss of crafting levels, yep, it has been brought up on tribble forums as well, but even tho it sucks, they are aware of it, but if they wanted they could reset the crafting levels to 0, so we should be happy we get to keep some of our progress.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    T-child wrote: »
    but if they wanted they could reset the crafting levels to 0, so we should be happy we get to keep some of our progress.

    ROFL ROFL ROFL

    we talk about a new game and progress made max 100 days ago as the game is now 100 days old... how can anyone even think about beeing happy they did not reset it to 0.

    Next update be happy to keep your rank and not to get pushed back to LT. Cmdr :D


    You do know that we pay them to give us a game to play? :confused:

    I am not one of those guys that cheer YAY YAY thanks you let me regrind the same things again.... :rolleyes:


    btw who do you blame for the poor system in the first place that needed a revamp the 3rd month the game beeing live?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    We know about this issue. It is not a bug with your character but a side effect of our new changes. We made sure to address it in the patch notes:
    Any Memory Alpha progress you had prior, will be converted to the approximate new skill amounts. Due to some store restructuring, this may mean that some items you were previously able to make may require more skill than you have now, but it will be close.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    We know about this issue. It is not a bug with your character but a side effect of our new changes. We made sure to address it in the patch notes:

    can we call it poor design then?

    I dont want to regrind the same stuff again. Do you understand this?

    "....may require more skill than you have now, but it will be close"

    From all items I was able to build from technology vendor to half the items (9 unlocked/ 9 locked) is not what I call close... :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Obi wrote:
    I guess they will build up new items later..

    They use that line a lot it seems.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Wow. Absolutely nobody in the Memory Alpha feedback thread saw this coming. What an unexpected development!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Wow. Absolutely nobody in the Memory Alpha feedback thread saw this coming. What an unexpected development!

    LOL... I love sarcasm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Wow. Absolutely nobody in the Memory Alpha feedback thread saw this coming. What an unexpected development!

    *claims to be Cryptic guy*

    ...but ...but we do listen to your feedback.. we read it.. and then.. we still do what we want yadayadayada

    :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I give up on crafting completely at this point. What a colossal joke.

    I, and obviously others, leveled up crafting under your previous system and spent way more resources (in both credits and data samples) than any new crafter will ever have to do under the new system. Ultimately they will max their crafting more easily, with fewer data samples, and ridiculously cheaper costs. Maybe someone would be so kind as to point out which bizarro world I have to visit for that setup to actually make any sense.

    But, hey, thanks for "addressing" it in the patch notes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Releasing thing on live with the very problems reported in tribble makes the testing process moot but that is just me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    another week of listening to this same complaint then we finally won't have to listen to this anymore. Thank god it's live and now we can hope they are still working on adding more stuff, sooner then later.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    We know about this issue. It is not a bug with your character but a side effect of our new changes. We made sure to address it in the patch notes:

    remember people won't listen to you unless your the CE running around ESD scream "WHERE IS SULU"

    ~Pepsi
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I really keep trying to understand how this whole decision went down.

    Step 1: You determine how much you want it to cost in resources for players to max their crafting skill.

    Step 2: You come to the understanding that many players have already paid that cost several times over.

    Step 3: Regardless, you completely do the wrong thing and pretend they still have a ways to go, because you put all this effort into remaking the crafting system and - gosh darn it - someone is going to play with it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Combadge wrote:
    I really keep trying to understand how this whole decision went down.

    Step 1: You determine how much you want it to cost in resources for players to max their crafting skill.

    Step 2: You come to the understanding that many players have already paid that cost several times over.

    Step 3: Regardless, you completely do the wrong thing and pretend they still have a ways to go, because you put all this effort into remaking the crafting system and - gosh darn it - someone is going to play with it.

    ...but... but we do listen to your feedback :rolleyes:

    seriously if it smells like a fish and looks like a fish it is a ......

    Indigo if you have the courage just answer why you (Cryptic team not personally you) made the dicission to let those that were done with unlocking crafting to force to regrind again even tho those players posten on forum while it was on Tribble against it? For me that is not listening to feedback tbh
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Obi wrote:
    *claims to be Cryptic guy*

    ...but ...but we do listen to your feedback.. we read it.. and then.. we still do what we want yadayadayada

    :D

    You know, (and I personally don't like the idea of re-doing things to get to the same place that you were before the patch) I think we need a dose of reality here. You're doing them a disservice.

    Sure, they solicit our feedback. They absolutely listen to what we want. This is a fact. For proof, look at anything from ship interiors to the incoming Klingon story missions and this M-A revamp.

    -- BUT --

    Just because they ask our opinions, doesn't mean that they'll do what we want. Ultimately, at the end of the day, they have to consider a change from every possible angle. There is a reason for what Cryptic decided.

    It's their responsibility to measure any change they make, to predict it's impact to the game both in the near and long term, and the decide how and what to do. It's easy to ask for something. Not so easy to DO it.

    Anyway, sure, they want our feedback. Are they always right? No, of course not. No more than you or I could always be right. (Except that I am always right.) :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kinjiru wrote: »
    It's easy to ask for something. Not so easy to DO it.

    This particular case wasn't exactly rocket science, y'know?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kinjiru wrote: »
    You know, (and I personally don't like the idea of re-doing things to get to the same place that you were before the patch) I think we need a dose of reality here. You're doing them a disservice.

    Sure, they solicit our feedback. They absolutely listen to what we want. This is a fact. For proof, look at anything from ship interiors to the incoming Klingon story missions and this M-A revamp.

    -- BUT --

    Just because they ask our opinions, doesn't mean that they'll do what we want. Ultimately, at the end of the day, they have to consider a change from every possible angle. There is a reason for what Cryptic decided.

    It's their responsibility to measure any change they make, to predict it's impact to the game both in the near and long term, and the decide how and what to do. It's easy to ask for something. Not so easy to DO it.

    Anyway, sure, they want our feedback. Are they always right? No, of course not. No more than you or I could always be right. (Except that I am always right.) :D

    sure :) I am not unaware of your points. combadge summs it up quite good with this:
    "many players have already paid that cost several times over" speaking of the old system.
    Forcing those players to unlock again is just not nice. not more not less.

    I also dont see any impact on the future game if they let us have the points for all unlocks as my char had before the patch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    another week of listening to this same complaint then we finally won't have to listen to this anymore. Thank god it's live and now we can hope they are still working on adding more stuff, sooner then later.

    I feel reasonably comfortable suggesting that anyone who is excited by this situation has probably been sitting on a large amount of anomaly data for a while now and has been anxiously awaiting the arrival of this revamp so they could start using it.

    Let us know if it takes you a full two minutes to max out your crafting from scratch or if you manage it in just one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Wow. Absolutely nobody in the Memory Alpha feedback thread saw this coming. What an unexpected development!

    Yes, they saw it comiong - AND Cryptic made a decision; which WAS posted in that thread soon after the issue was brought up. Again, just because they are open and listen to feedback, it doesn't mean/equal "You know if we (the players) raise enough of a stink, they'll always do what we want". They also have stated this was the first phase of revamping the crafting system; and that further changes based on the feedback they've been getting the the crafting system feedback thread.

    The fact is - before the change, you just needed to unlock a tier to craft everything in that tier. With the starting change to a 'more standard' crafting system (which is what the majority of player s who are crafters and wanted the system changed most); the Dev decided MkX items should be craftable at max level. What is so strange about that for a standard MMO crafting system?

    As they say, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Obi wrote:
    I dont want to regrind the same stuff again. Do you understand this?

    Here's the deal ... one that most players will obviously never bother to consider but one that I will vainly try to point out anyways ...

    The devs had two choices here. Do what they did. Which has this side effect. Which you obviously dislike.

    OR

    Completely redesign the system. Start over. From scratch. With a system that gets totally redesigned. There were hundreds of posts. Dozens of suggestions. Some of them very very detailed.

    But, guess what would have happened if they had done that?

    Instead of losing SOME of your progress, you'd have lost ALL of your progress. Every last bit of it.

    So there you go. Your only two options, and no matter how much you think there might be other options, those were your only two ... were to lose SOME or ALL of your progress.

    Pick your poison.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Armsman wrote: »
    Yes, they saw it comiong - AND Cryptic made a decision; which WAS posted in that thread soon after the issue was brought up. Again, just because they are open and listen to feedback, it doesn't mean/equal "You know if we (the players) raise enough of a stink, they'll always do what we want". They also have stated this was the first phase of revamping the crafting system; and that further changes based on the feedback they've been getting the the crafting system feedback thread.

    The fact is - before the change, you just needed to unlock a tier to craft everything in that tier. With the starting change to a 'more standard' crafting system (which is what the majority of player s who are crafters and wanted the system changed most); the Dev decided MkX items should be craftable at max level. What is so strange about that for a standard MMO crafting system?

    As they say, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

    I'm not blind to the dilemma of properly awarding correct credit when transferring between the two systems with different forms of advancement. I'm not even sure if a solution existed or what shape it would come in. But, here's the thing - you're not paying me a subscription fee every month to figure one out. In other words, it's not my job, it's theirs, and they failed at figuring out a way to implement this new system without TRIBBLE legitimate customers over. What did we do wrong, other than invest our time into the crafting system they launched the game with?

    Had Cryptic been able to magically refund me every dime/anomaly I used to raise my crafting under the old system and said "Ok, go through the process of pushing the buttons again so we can reward you with the proper advancement..", the reality is I'd be able to max my crafting and have a *lot* of those resources left over to spare. Instead, those resources are gone and I'm far from having my crafting maxed out suddenly. I lost progress, and the time I spent gathering those resources, because I trusted them to implement their new system in a way that worked better.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Here's the deal ... one that most players will obviously never bother to consider but one that I will vainly try to point out anyways ...

    The devs had two choices here. Do what they did. Which has this side effect. Which you obviously dislike.

    OR

    Completely redesign the system. Start over. From scratch. With a system that gets totally redesigned. There were hundreds of posts. Dozens of suggestions. Some of them very very detailed.

    But, guess what would have happened if they had done that?

    Instead of losing SOME of your progress, you'd have lost ALL of your progress. Every last bit of it.

    So there you go. Your only two options, and no matter how much you think there might be other options, those were your only two ... were to lose SOME or ALL of your progress.

    Pick your poison.

    There's a difference. At least with a new and improved system it might have been worth losing the progress. I would have even suggested keeping the old anomaly BARTER system up on the NPCs and placing a very different new CRAFTING system on the consoles so that people couldn't complain about losing anything since nothing ends up being lost that way.

    But nothing really changed, other than now we can see our progress, and the method of progression (which seems worse now than it was). Otherwise it's the same, except some of us can no longer craft items we used to be able to craft. Hurray?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Here's the deal ... one that most players will obviously never bother to consider but one that I will vainly try to point out anyways ...

    The devs had two choices here. Do what they did. Which has this side effect. Which you obviously dislike.

    OR

    Completely redesign the system. Start over. From scratch. With a system that gets totally redesigned. There were hundreds of posts. Dozens of suggestions. Some of them very very detailed.

    But, guess what would have happened if they had done that?

    Instead of losing SOME of your progress, you'd have lost ALL of your progress. Every last bit of it.

    So there you go. Your only two options, and no matter how much you think there might be other options, those were your only two ... were to lose SOME or ALL of your progress.

    Pick your poison.

    Uhh...
    Option 3: Implement the UI changes and award everyone sufficient crafting SP to get what they already got.
    We're talking one-time if...then statements based on database lookups here, not complex algorithms or new code structures.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Combadge wrote:
    At least with a new and improved system it might have been worth losing the progress.

    Nope. It wouldn't have been worth it to quite a few posters. And the searing, flame-filled, ranty complaints would have been more overwhelming. You might not be posting in the threads. But there' be more of them and the complaints would be rampant.
    But nothing really changed, other than now we can see our progress, and the method of progression (which seems worse now than it was). Otherwise it's the same, except some of us can no longer craft items we used to be able to craft. Hurray?

    The system changed. The way it works. They way it records progress.

    They only had two options. What they did which involved losing some progress. Or what a lot of the players wanted, which curiously enough, involved losing ALL progress.

    They chose the lesser of two evils here. And I really don't think anyone's ever going to be willing to concede that, since they can't get past their own personal preference.

    It's yet another catch-22. And what I tend to feel a dead-end. The complaint is not going to go away. It's going to remain "justified" by people who won't ever bother to place the wider goal of how this helps everyone and improves crafting tremendously over the narrow focus of how this affected them personally.

    They want an easter egg. They want an easter egg. They want an easter egg.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Uhh...
    Option 3: Implement the UI changes and award everyone sufficient crafting SP to get what they already got.
    We're talking one-time if...then statements based on database lookups here, not complex algorithms or new code structures.

    There is no Option 3. Option 3 does not exist. They had two options ... what they did. Or starting all over again.

    That's it.

    The developers stated there is no 1:1 conversion. And the system wasn't based on the progress/record keeping that it is now based on. There wasn't going to be a way to get your option 3.

    No option 3. As much as you might want an option 3 ... it did not exist.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    There is no Option 3. Option 3 does not exist. They had two options ... what they did. Or starting all over again.

    That's it.

    The developers stated there is no 1:1 conversion. And the system wasn't based on the progress/record keeping that it is now based on. There wasn't going to be a way to get your option 3.

    No option 3. As much as you might want an option 3 ... it did not exist.

    Then how did they successfully convert any of the former progress?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    As others have posted, we deliberated quite a bit before arriving at the conversion that players have now.

    The old and new rates are simply not the same. Someone else posted that once you previously crafted enough to unlock a tier, you could then craft everything in that tier.

    So lets say in the old system you needed to craft 5000 points to unlock the advanced tier. This means that without ever crafting a single thing in the advanced tier - you had access to craft everything in the advanced tier. So from a conversion standpoint, if you had 5000 points crafted, then you've never made a thing in the advanced tier and thus don't have any progress there.

    The new system greatly reduces the number of items needed to "grind" to the next level, so instead of 5000 you only need 500 now.

    Now add into the mix that the actual credit you were getting in the old system was all kinds of crazy confusing and didn't make any sense. You might get 2 points for crafting one thing, and 1400 for crafting something else. Progression was really convoluted and varied greatly.

    Everyone was converted via the same equation, and if anything we've erred on the side of being generous to how much you'd crafted before.

    To say "I could craft this in the old system and now I can't craft it in this new system" is going to be true in some cases, but that is due to the nature of adding "real" progression where there was previously all kinds of varying numbers.

    Its not ideal, but when we make big changes like this - the fairest thing we can do is give everyone credit based on the numbers they previously had - not the "list of items they could see they could craft".

    If you think this is going to be a new "grind" you are incorrect. We've calculated that it takes far far less crafted items and anomaly data to progress in the new system because we've greatly reduced both the number of anomlies required, we've increased the amount of skill gain for each item, and we've added vendors to stabilize the price of base items.

    This decision was not made by a single person but an entire design team - and it was agreed to be the best course of action based on our knowledge of the previous system.
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