So melee combat is my personal favourite form of combat in STO. Not for any other reason than the fact that its cool. Okay I guess its also a lot more challenging than anything else too having to deal with people bunnyhopping and rolling everywhere trying to evade.
One thing that HUGELY annoys me however is a lot of people as soon as they see someone meleeing they spam rifle butt and 9/10 they will stun lock you and eventually kill you as you are unable to move or do anything.
As a Melee combatant this is just downright stupid. An idea I had whilst experiencing this for the umpteenth time the other day was that using melee weapons (including martial arts) would give you immunity to rifle butt. I know the purpose of rifle butt is to fend off melee attacks but frankly the way it works right now is that someone only needs to get the best rifle in the game and they are sorted. There is no such thing as a dangerous melee opponent when you can spam rifle butt and stun lock them.
Perhaps a more reasonable suggestion would be to increase the resistance to rifle butt. Something like 80% would be fair, giving the assailant a chance to actually use their attacks and not spend the whole fight on the floor, exposed.
A logical reason (if you need one) as to why a melee weapon would improve your block towards such attacks is purely because you would be trained for it and also its a lot easier to counter something like that if you are using melee weapons (especially martial arts).
But seriously its damn annoying and it renders melee pretty much worthless. I know there are ways to flank people and whatnot but as soon as they take that first hit and resist your knockdown or whatever you hit them with its game over.
What is slightly infuriating on top of that is that a lot of weapons now take 4-5 shots to kill people while a Bat'leth will take 10-15 if your lucky and even more for martial arts. If your spending 2/3 of the fight on the floor because the guy is rifle butting you then your going to lose 100% of the time.
First, I would have to emphasize that melee is an excellent option when you are fighting against a team that is spamming weapons malfunction against you. There is an excellent thread detailing melee combat here and the best Bat'Leth combination attacks: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=97085 The key thing to remember with a Bat'Leth is that the combination attacks will expose, and the final attack will hit hard.
As to the OP's suggestion for more rifle butt resistances while using melee, I would disagree because there are already so many options within the game to make melee extremely viable, and melee is so powerful that there needs to be a dangerous drawback (or else melee will be overpowered).
At character creation, there are various traits to give you resistances to knockback, hold, and roots. (There is also a trait to give you +10% physical damage.) Also, there are stacking resistances (of various types) that you will receive once you have been held or knocked back. These resistances are given to you for free regardless if you have picked them at character creation.
For professions, you have even more options. Tactical has Close Combat kit. Engineers have Weapons Malfunction plus Fuse Armor (root). I believe Science has the most options, with Hypospray Dylovene (physical damage buff), Gravimetric Shift (root), and Neural Neutralizer (AoE placate). Also, Vulcans have Nerve Pinch and Mind Meld.
As for Rifle Butt spam being a problem, I truly disagree. You could (1) use a knockback shield, or (2) rifle butt them in return. If you're a Science officer, you could use Sonic Pulse (knockback) when they are in close range. Also keep in mind that you get various hold and rifle butt resistances after you've been hit.
I simply believe rifle butt is a fair gameplay tactic and has been greatly improved since the patch. It would happen in real life or on the Star Trek TV shows. Rifle butt should be used 33% of the time since it is on your 3 key and should be given equal importance to your weapon attacks on the 1 and 2 key. Both sides have rifle butt, and there are simple ways to counter it (such as keeping a distance). If you are being rifle butt spammed in a 3v1 situation, it is no worse than being shot at with energy weapon attacks in a 3v1 situation. The problem is that you are outnumbered, not that rifle butt is being spammed. And at least if you are being rifle butted in a 3v1 situation, your knockback shield will give you some breathing space. Or your teammates can shoot a Blast Assault weapon to knockback everyone who is surrounding you. There are too many options to list!
So, I disagree that there needs to be any changes or improvements to rifle butt. There are many resistances (which you can get as traits or automatically) and counters to rifle butt (mostly available to the Science profession). Melee is also already quite powerful in damage considering that it bypasses shields and has high expose chance, so there definitely needs to be a gameplay tradeoff of damage versus getting hit with a rifle butt. If you are on the floor exposed, I believe you have a chance to get a dodge defense bonus against exploit attacks. Or, you could use a shield recharge to simply remove your expose (and obviously if you are Science, you can remove your exposes with kit abilities).
I actually use a Bat'Leth in my video here (and I think I do a decent job), and at one point achieve an 800 crit hit at 2:45. A crit with that damage amount is instant death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg
However, I do think the problem with MARTIAL ARTS is that it doesn't make you "close in" on your target like a Bat'Leth. I definitely think this should be changed.
As for Rifle Butt spam being a problem, I truly disagree. You could (1) use a knockback shield, or (2) rifle butt them in return. If you're a Science officer, you could use Sonic Pulse (knockback) when they are in close range. Also keep in mind that you get various hold and rifle butt resistances after you've been hit.
So, I disagree that there needs to be any changes or improvements to rifle butt. There are many resistances (which you can get as traits or automatically) and counters to rifle butt (mostly available to the Science profession). Melee is also already quite powerful in damage considering that it bypasses shields and has high expose chance, so there definitely needs to be a gameplay tradeoff of damage versus getting hit with a rifle butt. If you are on the floor exposed, I believe you have a chance to get a dodge defense bonus against exploit attacks. Or, you could use a shield recharge to simply remove your expose (and obviously if you are Science, you can remove your exposes with kit abilities).
I don't really agree with this. The knockback shield is only so effective. Rifle butt doesn't just counter melee, it's pretty damn useful as an offensive power. And having to counter the tertiary attack on a ranged weapon with the tertiary attack on ranged weapon seems kind of stupid. I believe it also has all the chances to expose that melee has.
And of course, as far as I can tell, the rifle butt hold can't be cleared with hypos. Ever other hold based on some fancy science kit, sure. But not the wrong end of rifle to your face, federation medical science can't fix that.
I don't really agree with this. The knockback shield is only so effective. Rifle butt doesn't just counter melee, it's pretty damn useful as an offensive power. And having to counter the tertiary attack on a ranged weapon with the tertiary attack on ranged weapon seems kind of stupid. I believe it also has all the chances to expose that melee has.
And of course, as far as I can tell, the rifle butt hold can't be cleared with hypos. Ever other hold based on some fancy science kit, sure. But not the wrong end of rifle to your face, federation medical science can't fix that.
Thank you for your reply. I realize now that I should have clarified more about the Bat'Leth.
The Bat'Leth has an incredibly better chance to expose than energy weapons because expose energy weapons only have the chance to expose on the tertiary attack, whereas all three Bat'Leth attacks offer expose chances. So that is a major benefit to the Bat'Leth. Not to mention that the Bat'Leth attack will bypass shields.
Thus there needs to be a gameplay drawback for such a powerful weapon--and I believe rifle butt is the most fair drawback.
As for the effectiveness of the Knocback Shield, I truly believe this is the best shield for the very specific problem that the OP pointed out--namely, people getting too close and rifle butt spamming you. The knockback has a small chance to occur when damage is being taken; when you are being spammed with an attack, the chance for knockback greatly increases. Thus it is a viable option against rifle butt spam.
Currently, hypos only release you from "fragile" holds (such as the Science skill "Stasis Field"). I absolutely agree that hypos should be extended to release you from all holds.
As for Rifle Butt spam being a problem, I truly disagree. You could (1) use a knockback shield, or (2) rifle butt them in return. If you're a Science officer, you could use Sonic Pulse (knockback) when they are in close range. Also keep in mind that you get various hold and rifle butt resistances after you've been hit.
So, I disagree that there needs to be any changes or improvements to rifle butt. There are many resistances (which you can get as traits or automatically) and counters to rifle butt (mostly available to the Science profession).
You cant be serious... Riflebutt is incredibly broken, in so many ways that it just hurts.
The ability's inherent knockback is not the problem here.
Just some points:
1.The hold duration on rb alone(without the exploitive reapply through further spamming while a hold already is in effect) is way too long for a damageproof hold.
It has the long duration of a fragile hold(like ag or sf), and should either also be changed into a fragile hold(which would TRIBBLE the rb spammers and all problems with that ability with one simple change), or stay damageproof but be brought in line with other damageproof holds, which means reducing its duration at least by half.
2. Hypos do not break rb holds the great majority of time, that needs to be fixed.
3. The immunities/resistances do not work correctly, if at all. Not only can a rb hold be extended almost indefinately by further spamming of rb and a little "procc" luck, also after a full rb hold expires, you can still immediately be caught in another rb hold.
4, Riflebutt with all its rediculous powerfull properties, is about the most powerful single move in the game( knockback + 6-9 seconds damageproof hold + expose chance). An ability that powerful needs(additional to the fixes for the obvious bugs) a cooldown of at least 15 seconds.
You cant be serious... Riflebutt is incredibly broken, in so many ways that it just hurts.
The ability's inherent knockback is not the problem here.
Just some points:
1.The hold duration on rb alone(without the exploitive reapply through further spamming while a hold already is in effect) is way too long for a damageproof hold.
It has the long duration of a fragile hold(like ag or sf), and should either also be changed into a fragile hold(which would TRIBBLE the rb spammers and all problems with that ability with one simple change), or stay damageproof but be brought in line with other damageproof holds, which means reducing its duration at least by half.
2. Hypos do not break rb holds the great majority of time, that needs to be fixed.
3. The immunities/resistances do not work correctly, if at all. Not only can a rb hold be extended almost indefinately by further spamming of rb and a little "procc" luck, also after a full rb hold expires, you can still immediately be caught in another rb hold.
4, Riflebutt with all its rediculous powerfull properties, is about the most powerful single move in the game( knockback + 6-9 seconds damageproof hold + expose chance). An ability that powerful needs(additional to the fixes for the obvious bugs) a cooldown of at least 15 seconds.
Hi Goukes. Thanks for the reply.
Note to self: don't participate in the forums.
Now... there are so many ways to counter rifle butt. For instance, watch my video here at 0:17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgst9WL4MVY There is a trick (and several others) to defeat rifle butt, which you can see me do at the very beginning of that video. Also look at my second video at 3:30 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg At 3:35 I dodge a rifle butt. Later (at 3:50) I get hit with rifle butt AND a stun grenade. There is very, very little difference in combat and fighting goes on as normal. Those two holds are not a huge drawback in that situation, and I actually even dodged the first rifle butt. In fact, throughout that entire clip (which was made pre-patch when rifle butt was even worse), I am held many times and it is not a big distraction. I think people are over-dramatizing rifle butt and all holds in general. The key thing is that I am not outnumbered.
Moreover, if you watch my videos, I use rifle butt all the time and no one is down for a very long duration. Nobody.
Secondly, the problem with rifle butt spam is mainly in situations where you are outnumbered. The problem I believe is that you are outnumbered, not that you are being spammed with rifle butt.
The immunities to holds do work. There are different "kinds" of hold immunities though (phaser hold immunity, rifle butt hold immunity, stun beam hold immunity, etc.). As far as combining these various types of holds, that would an interesting concept to address.
My main objection to people who complain about rifle butt is that, it is available to both sides and everyone can use it. The simple counter is to keep distance, and if you see someone dumb enough to charge at you, then get ready to rifle butt them before they do it to you. (Although if you watch me play, I am notorious for close combat and rifle butting people.) If people are bothered, then pick the resistance traits at character creation, especially if you are planning to be a close-combat melee PvP'er.
If I were to voice my true opinion, I would go so far as to say that RIFLE BUTT IS TOO WEAK. There needs to be more serious consequences for close combat. People need to stay far away and plan for distance much more.
As for two rifle butt holds in a row, some stuff like that I think is fair and a rare occurrence. It honestly doesn't bother me at all because it gives me time to think about the situation, and also I have dodge bonuses to attacks while being held.
While I don't see as much of a problem with rifle butt as the OP does, the OP is very correct in that rifle butt makes melee significantly harder. Unless there was a major change in the last patch (only done one ground PvP match since and I don't remember if they actually got rid of rifle-butt hold) here is the problem. The animation/action/whatever you want to call it for rifle butt is shorter than for the bat'leth. With the hold proc this means that statistically speaking, rifle butt vs. bat'leth is going to go rifle butt's favor more often because he's going to hit first/more often.
To the OP,
There are a massive number of counters to rifle butt. Most have to do with dictating the range of an engagement. Now, it necessarily requires that you be flexible in changing your style to suit the situation.
Tactical: Photon grenade (knockback), Stun grenade (hold), Leg sweep (knockback), Motion accelerator (hold immunity), Suppressing fire (run speed debuff).
Weapons: High density beam rifle (repel), stun pistol (hold)
I'm sure I've missed a few things, but the point is there are multiple ways to counter rifle-butt spam, including controlling range, hold resistance, curing hold, etc. Not to mention, if you have a competent medic on your team, you should welcome rifle-butt spam, because while you're being spammed, everyone else is hitting your attacker with powerful attacks and the medic is curing your exposes with Medical Tricorder and Vascular Regenerator.
Thank you for your reply. I realize now that I should have clarified more about the Bat'Leth.
Every Bat'Leth slash is an expose attack. See the description here: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1423/4599403924_bb5b18a1fc_o.jpg
Thus there needs to be a gameplay drawback for such a powerful weapon--and I believe rifle butt is the most fair drawback.
Let me put it this way: I'm not near as concerned about a crazed andorian charging me with a bat'leth as I am someone charging me into a corner and slinging their rifle around like a tambourine.
Given, I may be underestimating the bat'leth due to playing a medic--medic kits may be more of a hard counter to melee damage than I've realized, now that I think about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong--someone attacking with rifle butt/palm strike generates as many expose chances as a bat'leth, plus the 100% knockback and 50% hold chance; they just don't deal appreciable damage?
Let me put it this way: I'm not near as concerned about a crazed andorian charging me with a bat'leth as I am someone charging me into a corner and slinging their rifle around like a tambourine.
Given, I may be underestimating the bat'leth due to playing a medic--medic kits may be more of a hard counter to melee damage than I've realized, now that I think about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong--someone attacking with rifle butt/palm strike generates as many expose chances as a bat'leth, plus the 100% knockback and 50% hold chance; they just don't deal appreciable damage?
The added bonus with the Bat'Leth is that the Bat'Leth knockback is an area of effect knockback, whereas the energy weapons are single target.
Now... there are so many ways to counter rifle butt. For instance, watch my video here at 0:17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgst9WL4MVY There is a trick (and several others) to defeat rifle butt, which you can see me do at the very beginning of that video.
Secondly, the problem with rifle butt spam is mainly in situations where you are outnumbered. The problem I believe is that you are outnumbered, not that you are being spammed with rifle butt.
The immunities to holds do work. There are different "kinds" of hold immunities though (phaser hold immunity, rifle butt hold immunity, stun beam hold immunity, etc.). As far as combining these various types of holds, that would an interesting concept to address.
My main objection to people who complain about rifle butt is that, it is available to both sides and everyone can use it. The simple counter is to keep distance, and if you see someone dumb enough to charge at you, then get ready to rifle butt them before they do it to you. (Although if you watch me play, I am notorious for close combat and rifle butting people.)
As for two rifle butt holds in a row, some stuff like that I think is fair and a rare occurrence. It honestly doesn't bother me at all because it gives me time to think about the situation, and also I have dodge bonuses to attacks while being held.
Well it is right it is available to both sides, my problem with it is not being "unfair" or whatever, my problem with it is (besides the stated obvious bugs that need fixing) that the concept of rb is pretty funkilling, and its "scrub"ish approach, as spamming the 3 with all the immensly powefull properties rb offers without any kind of cd on it, proves to very often be so much more effective than going through any variety of different specials your class/kit has to offer.
Also i can absolutely assure you that the immunities to rb hold do not work most of the time, if there are "rare" occurrences" it would be the resistances actually doing something, not the other way around.
An abilitiy that is so powerful needs a shorttimed cd(if its properties remain unchanged), i'd say 15 seconds, but 10 or 12 is fine too, hell even 6 would suffice and would bring it in line with the shortest-cd abilities available on kits or weapons.
The point of resistances not taking effect immediately the moment the hold is applied but only after the hold expires, is imho a failed design, or do you really think it is a good design that a rb hold can be extended to near infinity with 2 people spamming rb on you, or easily to durations of 10 seconds(or even longer, if the proccs are lucky) with a single person spamming rb on you?
I don't think so, but that is in fact a matter of opinion and personal preference of how complicated and variable you want your pvp gameplay to be.
What is not a matter of opinion though, but plain buggy is that the resistance system most of the time even fails when a rb hold expires naturally and is instantly reapplied and the fact that hypos fail to break rb holds most of the time.
Before another war of opinions starts,i know we don't agree on rb spam, you obviously like it, i obviously don't, so let's cut that TRIBBLE, but i'd be happy if at least the most obvious bugs would be adressed.
From my experience testing with a fed guy on ground, once you're hit by the rifle butt, a "knockback resist" is applied. This lasts like 9 seconds I think. This prevents further rifle butt knockbacks and prevents the hold. If the first hit holds, however, the hold counter and knockback counter decrease at the same time, so by the time you get up there's only 1-2 seconds of resistance left.
If the first rifle butt only knocked you back, you actually have about 9 seconds of not getting screwed by that power.
I'm not certain of how this works with multiple opponents.
From my experience testing with a fed guy on ground, once you're hit by the rifle butt, a "knockback resist" is applied. This lasts like 9 seconds I think. This prevents further rifle butt knockbacks and prevents the hold. If the first hit holds, however, the hold counter and knockback counter decrease at the same time, so by the time you get up there's only 1-2 seconds of resistance left.
If the first rifle butt only knocked you back, you actually have about 9 seconds of not getting screwed by that power.
I'm not certain of how this works with multiple opponents.
As long a you are in the hold, the hold can be extended by further rbs.
Afaik the hold resistance is applied only when the hold expires, but even then you can get caught in another rb hold again.
Edit: Anyone believing rb hold resistances work properly , or that rb holds can not be extended are invited to watch the video meow posted, there are tons of scenes in it where klingon players are rb hold extended(with often 3 feds spamming rb on him), and immediately after coming out of a hold reapplied with another rb hold, the most distinctive scene being the one in the 2nd part of the video, with kevin being chainheld/knockbacked for almost 30 seconds(extended rb holds aswell as immediate reapllies of rb holds after one expiring).
As long a you are in the hold, the hold can be extended by further rbs.
Afaik the hold resistance is applied only when the hold expires, but even then you can get caught in another rb hold again.
Edit: Anyone believing rb hold resistances work properly , or that rb holds can not be extended are invited to watch the video meow posted, there are tons of scenes in it where klingon players are rb hold extended(with often 3 feds spamming rb on him), and immediately after coming out of a hold reapplied with another rb hold, the most distinctive scene being the one in the 2nd part of the video, with kevin being chainheld/knockbacked for almost 30 seconds(extended rb holds aswell as immediate reapllies of rb holds after one expiring).
What happened there is that I am using rifle butt, fuse armor, and sniper shot with knocback and the special KB3 knockback proc. My teammates are also using the sniper shot with knockback. The simple thing is that we outnumber him. Yet amazingly he survives the entire ordeal. After all those knockbacks, rifle butts, and fuse armor, he survives. Thus it is not a big deal to me. If anything, this approach gimped us in that situation.
So, my strategy consists of using two holds--first is rifle butt, and second is fuse armor. Then I use the knockbacks from my shields and the KB3 sniper shot. This is to maximize my role as crowd control, and holds are important to the crowd control class. That is why I am strongly against a common hold resistance---there are kit abilities (such as fuse armor and stasis field) whose most useful effect is the hold, and thus should be counted separately from rifle butt. I use rifle butt hold and fuse armor hold as a coupled attack, and this is my most important attack as an engineer focused on crowd control. If rifle butt granted immunity to all holds, then fuse armor would not be useful to me anymore. Mind you, fuse armor is a tier 5 skill that is extremely expensive for skill points and I have it maxed out for the sole reason to increase the hold duration.
Thanks for the careful observation. What you might be noticing throughout my video is that I am using two holds--first is rifle butt, and second is fuse armor. So that would be another reason why I am strongly against a common hold resistance---there are kit abilities (such as fuse armor and stasis field) whose most useful effect is the hold, and thus should be counted separately from rifle butt. I use rifle butt hold and fuse armor hold as a coupled attack, and this is my most important attack as an engineer focused on crowd control. If rifle butt granted immunity to all holds, then fuse armor would not be useful to me anymore. Mind you, fuse armor is a tier 5 skill that is extremely expensive for skill points and I have it maxed out for the sole reason to increase the hold duration.
I didn't even mention fuse armor, i have no problem with it, or kit-holds in general, but just considering that fuse armors hold is indeed a tier 5 ability, but its hold is shorter than the one of rb, and its not spammable(15 second cd?) shows just how broken the rb hold is, or not?
I don't want fuse armor to be changed at all, its a kit ability, it is a good ability, and it has a justifiable cd, seriously i have no problems with it.
But rbs hold alone is already too long, spammable, extendable, repeatable, thats just too much, esp. when a resistance system IS SUPPOSED to be in effect, but seems to do nothing most of the time.
To bring your video example again, the scene with kevin in part 2 of2, starts at 4:25 where he gets his first rb hold, the full duration, less than one second out of it he gets the second one in, the third one follows just as the 2nd runs out or is about to run out, thats 3 consequtive rb holds already, almost 20 seconds of hold through rb alone with less than one second window, then you apply fuse armor, but also deliver a 4th rb but which slams him into the wall and holds him again for an overall of close to 30 seconds!
That is just rediculous.
Oh and he survived this ordeal cause he got healed.^^
Hi Goukes. You replied after I had edited my message. Basically there are many different knockbacks from our KB3 weapons, sniper shots, and knockback shields, holds from my fuse armor, and rifle butts that are stacking on top of my fuse armor... but in defense, the Klingon lived through all of that and TWO of us died. (Also if you watch that scene carefully, I myself have knockback resistances to the Klingon's knockback shields because of the traits I picked at character creation. I also have hold resistances from my character traits.)
Hi Goukes. You replied after I had edited my message. Basically there are many different knockbacks from our KB3 weapons, sniper shots, and knockback shields, holds from my fuse armor, and rifle butts that are stacking on top of my fuse armor... but in defense, the Klingon lived through all of that and TWO of us died. (Also if you watch that scene carefully, I myself have knockback resistances to the Klingon's knockback shields because of the traits I picked at character creation. I also have hold resistances from my character traits.)
I know all that and i watched the scene carefully and only gave attention to holds, not to kbs(that also could have been caused by snipeshots etc.).
As stated, before fuse armor hold even took effect, he was already been thrown into his 3rd rb hold(the 3rd one being an extension of the second one), and after that directly thrown into a 4th rb hold+kb, 30 seconds into that ordeal he used a hypo, impossible to see if he could move again at that point(you finished with an additional rb, so he might have gotten another rb hold extension at that point), as you went away from him there incapable of killing him with him beaing healed(sidenote, i found it funny that you suspected orange to be the team healer, while he was mostly busy keeping himself alive, as he had your extra attention^^).
Not at any point did rb hold resistances actually do anything through this whole play.
I know all that and i watched the scene carefully and only gave attention to holds, not to kbs(that also could have been caused by snipeshots etc.).
As stated, before fuse armor hold even took effect, he was already been thrown into his 3rd rb hold(the 3rd one being an extension of the second one), and after that directly thrown into a 4th rb hold+kb, 30 seconds into that ordeal he used a hypo, impossible to see if he could move again at that point(you finished with an additional rb, so he might have gotten another rb hold extension at that point), as you went away from him there incapable of killing him with him beaing healed(sidenote, i found it funny that you suspected orange to be the team healer, while he was mostly busy keeping himself alive, as he had your extra attention^^).
Not at any point did rb hold resistances actually do anything through this whole play.
Hmm... in theory, he should have been able to rifle butt me back as soon as he got out of the hold. I am not sure if he had that opportunity and missed it, or if there was no chance for him to do it. Mind you I attack very quickly. Thanks for pointing this out to us all.
Hmm... in theory, he should have been able to rifle butt me back as soon as he got out of the hold. I am not sure if he had that opportunity and missed it, or if there was no chance for him to do it. Mind you I attack very quickly. Thanks for pointing this out to us all.
Well maybe he could have done that, maybe he wanted to shoot something, maybe his window for rb was too short, as you have been able to set your own next rb before him, as he was .. well held , you know.
All this is irrelevant though concerning the problem of resistances very obviously not working properly, we have video prove of that now, very detailed even thank you for that.^^
Also the fact that hypos most of the time don't break rb holds, has to be fixed.
Actually that is all i want atm. Make hypos work 100% of the time on rb holds, and also resistances to apply and work 100% of the time when a hypo(or the normal expiration) gets me out of the hold. I don't have to remind that this is how it is intended, so i am not asking for any altering of an ability, only for its proper fixing.
For your "tricks" to bypass riflebutt-holds, this is obviously an unintended effect of these "standtocast" abilities and by that to be considered bugabuse to use these abilities purposedly to counter holds, which it isn't meant for.
Ofc that is impossible to prove, as you allways may just have wanted to use that ability in that special moment for its meant purpose, but i don't think a player should be forced to such behaviour, when the abilities instead could just be properly fixed.
Well maybe he could have done that, maybe he wanted to shoot something, maybe his window for rb was too short, as you have been able to set your own next rb before him, as he was .. well held , you know.
All this is irrelevant though concerning the problem of resistances very obviously not working properly, we have video prove of that now, very detailed even thank you for that.^^
Also the fact that hypos most of the time don't break rb holds, has to be fixed.
Actually that is all i want atm. Make hypos work 100% of the time on rb holds, and also resistances to apply and work 100% of the time when a hypo(or the normal expiration) gets me out of the hold. I don't have to remind that this is how it is intended, so i am not asking for any altering of an ability, only for its proper fixing.
For your "tricks" to bypass riflebutt-holds, this is obviously an unintended effect of these "standtocast" abilities and by that to be considered bugabuse to use these abilities purposedly to counter holds, which it isn't meant for.
Ofc that is impossible to prove, as you allways may just have wanted to use that ability in that special moment for its meant purpose, but i don't think a player should be forced to such behaviour, when the abilities instead could just be properly fixed.
I agree 100% that hypos should remove all holds, including and especially rifle butt hold, instead of only stasis field.
Well, after 6 hours and 1 ground match actually popping during that time, I got some time I guess to weigh in, not that it is worth anything...
I only Ground PvP. PvE is too easy (even on the highest settings), and Space PvP seems dumbed down on tactics compared to ground PvP (just my opinion, save the flames please). Ground PvP, even though you have to use a 10 year old engine (I played this engine in 2000 with Neverwinter Nights), The intricacies of toon placements, breaking LOS to kill CD's on specials, Focus grabbing engineer trash (that actually harms and exposes you), staying out of the fire (some people STILL do not get this one, after all these years, heh) and so on, make ground PvP more reliant on playing skill.
From 10 or so people who have friended me over the last month so I could help them with ground PvP (yea, they actually send tells and ask how to get better), all but one have given it up. The main gripe is RB spamming. Period.
Even today, the ONE match that actually kicked off was T3 and we were outnumbered 5v3. When it became clear to the other team we were winning, guess what the started to do....you got it, charge in all 5 and RB spam until the got exposes, then "poof". The last quarter of the match digressed to hit and run (and run and run) to break the blob and pick off the stragglers.
IMO fixing this ONE ability would probably draw enough people back so queues might pop a bit more often.
As the previous posters have postured back and forth, I have thought pretty hard about this one. You see, at t4 and t5, the dynamics of Healing, IMO, necessitate RB. It is literally impossible to take down a good healer without locking them down somehow (which gives me a chuckle seeing Sugery's "We challenge you all" thread, as they have 2 very capable healers, and generally a 3rd who can don the kit if need be, which is pretty much "I Win").
If "I" were to change it, I would make it pretty simple. Keep the skills (RB, PS and Bat"leth) for the layman and give it the same KB and interrupt capability as it is now. The advanced Hold and Exploit (same with Bat'Leth) would be incorporated into a Tac kit (Like Martial Arts). Look at Lunge. Close with a chance to KB. Why even use it when you can double tap "W" (giving you big evade bonuses) and close a greater distance, coming up and hitting 3 with a chance to proc a KB, Hold, AND Expose? With my programmable mouse, I can one button this action.
Another Idea is to make only the KB/Interrupt able to proc UNLESS your opponents shields are dropped.
IMO even making popping a hypo remove it would not help, as the CD is also popped, and unless you are in a 1v1, you are probably gonna need the hypo for when your *cough* health like....drops. Hypos also do not grant an immunity buff, so the spammin can continue until moral improves...err...they get the next proc.
Maybe having consumables apply an immunity buff for 10-15 secs (for whatever the item is, Shields for expose, hypos for holds and charges for WM) would also deaden the issue also, PROVIDED Hypos are made to work on ALL holds.
My experience shows me, beyond any doubt in my mind, that this ONE ability has chased more people from ground PvP than anything else, and I have been assured (by the ones in this boat that I talk with) they will not come back until it is taken care of.
So, like RB/PS or not, it seems that MANY more people do not, and fixing it SOMEHOW will bring more into pretty much the only part of this game that gives me that edge of the seat "thrill"...Ground PvP.
Just my 2386782634 cents.
Well, after 6 hours and 1 ground match actually popping during that time, I got some time I guess to weigh in, not that it is worth anything...
I only Ground PvP. PvE is too easy (even on the highest settings), and Space PvP seems dumbed down on tactics compared to ground PvP (just my opinion, save the flames please). Ground PvP, even though you have to use a 10 year old engine (I played this engine in 2000 with Neverwinter Nights), The intricacies of toon placements, breaking LOS to kill CD's on specials, Focus grabbing engineer trash (that actually harms and exposes you), staying out of the fire (some people STILL do not get this one, after all these years, heh) and so on, make ground PvP more reliant on playing skill.
From 10 or so people who have friended me over the last month so I could help them with ground PvP (yea, they actually send tells and ask how to get better), all but one have given it up. The main gripe is RB spamming. Period.
Even today, the ONE match that actually kicked off was T3 and we were outnumbered 5v3. When it became clear to the other team we were winning, guess what the started to do....you got it, charge in all 5 and RB spam until the got exposes, then "poof". The last quarter of the match digressed to hit and run (and run and run) to break the blob and pick off the stragglers.
IMO fixing this ONE ability would probably draw enough people back so queues might pop a bit more often.
As the previous posters have postured back and forth, I have thought pretty hard about this one. You see, at t4 and t5, the dynamics of Healing, IMO, necessitate RB. It is literally impossible to take down a good healer without locking them down somehow (which gives me a chuckle seeing Sugery's "We challenge you all" thread, as they have 2 very capable healers, and generally a 3rd who can don the kit if need be, which is pretty much "I Win").
If "I" were to change it, I would make it pretty simple. Keep the skills (RB, PS and Bat"leth) for the layman and give it the same KB and interrupt capability as it is now. The advanced Hold and Exploit (same with Bat'Leth) would be incorporated into a Tac kit (Like Martial Arts). Look at Lunge. Close with a chance to KB. Why even use it when you can double tap "W" (giving you big evade bonuses) and close a greater distance, coming up and hitting 3 with a chance to proc a KB, Hold, AND Expose? With my programmable mouse, I can one button this action.
Another Idea is to make only the KB/Interrupt able to proc UNLESS your opponents shields are dropped.
IMO even making popping a hypo remove it would not help, as the CD is also popped, and unless you are in a 1v1, you are probably gonna need the hypo for when your *cough* health like....drops. Hypos also do not grant an immunity buff, so the spammin can continue until moral improves...err...they get the next proc.
Maybe having consumables apply an immunity buff for 10-15 secs (for whatever the item is, Shields for expose, hypos for holds and charges for WM) would also deaden the issue also, PROVIDED Hypos are made to work on ALL holds.
My experience shows me, beyond any doubt in my mind, that this ONE ability has chased more people from ground PvP than anything else, and I have been assured (by the ones in this boat that I talk with) they will not come back until it is taken care of.
So, like RB/PS or not, it seems that MANY more people do not, and fixing it SOMEHOW will bring more into pretty much the only part of this game that gives me that edge of the seat "thrill"...Ground PvP.
Just my 2386782634 cents.
*shrug*
While i, obvious form my earlier statements, agree with you on rb being way to strong(an ability that provides a more powerfull cc than pretty much all cc abilities that are available on kits, and in addition not having any kind of cd opposed to kit-ccs that have one of at least 10 seconds), and should be changed, i do not think it is a good idea to put the current rb properties just on a kit. that way that kit will propably just be a necessity for that class to be used, instead of any other.
Hypos removing an rb stun is intended, this would be a bugfix that is long overdue, not an altering of any intended ability, also the resistence system that is currently in place, but doesn't work properly, would prevent an immediate reapply of another rb after a hold expires through a hypo being used, once again, if it worked properly.
I don't say that these long overdue fixes alone would bring rb in line with other abilities(it is still far superior to any other kind off cc unless a cooldown will be introduced for it) but at least that would give players a dependable tool to work against rb spamming and regain their fun in games.
A little remark also on your healers comment: Good tacs can take out healers without expose proccs, without rb spam(rb spam/=single rb usage) and without help from others, that may sometimes take a little while(anything between 2 and 30 seconds) though as it might need more than one attempt, but its absolutely doable even with the healer being fully aware.
With coordinated focusfire of two capable tacs, healers are doomed in a few seconds if they don't get their asses out of harms way, or being supported by another player.
If you talk about another sci or an engineer trying to kill a healer, that might indeed take ages, but that should be considered normal i'd assume, its not like the other way around the healer would wreck havoc upon an engineer or another sci either.
Do you happen to have a video of a Tac bringing down a "Decent" (much less good) healer?
I find that hard to believe in all seriousness. You see, ALL the "Good" healers I know will close on you and Bat'Leth or RB spam you...they would kill a Tac 1v1 in ANY ground game (And yes, I play Tacs...4 of them, and they do not suck).
I think that generalization is not true in all cases, at all.
Remember, I said "Good" healer.
Go make a video killing Surgery or Pwn'du on Otha, I would like to see how you kill them. I am always up for learning, heh.
As powerful as the are, Melee (RB, PS, and Bat'Leth) is a healers best friend, and 1v1 with one using melee, they should, if good, be able to kill anyone, period.
Do you happen to have a video of a Tac bringing down a "Decent" (much less good) healer?
I find that hard to believe in all seriousness. You see, ALL the "Good" healers I know will close on you and Bat'Leth or RB spam you...they would kill a Tac 1v1 in ANY ground game (And yes, I play Tacs...4 of them, and they do not suck).
I think that generalization is not true in all cases, at all.
Remember, I said "Good" healer.
Go make a video killing Surgery or Pwn'du on Otha, I would like to see how you kill them. I am always up for learning, heh.
As powerful as the are, Melee (RB, PS, and Bat'Leth) is a healers best friend, and 1v1 with one using melee, they should, if good, be able to kill anyone, period.
Since i am klingon, i have not yet been fighting against surgery or u.b.pwn'ed(which i assume is the one you meant), but i kill fed scis on my tac all the time, sometimes i need 2 or 3 attempts and a prepared critical flank snipershot (FF applied, shields being down, TO active, energy cell active) will allways drop a fully buffed medic from 100 health to zero.
If you cant flank the medic for your snipe and have bad critluck, you may need more attempts, or even completely fail, but if all falls in place and you prepare your attacks properly the medic will drop.
Like i said i havn't been able to fight against surgery, but i faught alongside surgery, and alan(one of the best federal tacs on the ground atm in terms of burst) has dropped surge couple of times in seconds, aswell as he dropped my medic several times.
You should also see Piii(most propably the best ground tac overall atm) wipe the floor with federal medics, that is scary.
Judging from the names you threw out there, all of which I have played with and against (I got 8 pvp toons), I think I can safely say we agree RB/PS is OP and needs fixed. With respect to the other observation, I will just agree to disagree, as we obviously have VERY different realities there.
No tactical can kill my science without abusing that bug, unless they critical flank me twice in a row.
I have seen Alan take you out midfight more than once, we had a discussion about ambush bugabuse already, and you see it everywhere, you even accused me of doing that, which i can with 100% safety say is a lie or if we keep it friendly a plain false observation on your part, yet you insisted on having seen me use 2 ambushes.
But whatever, my critical ambush3 flank snipershots deal up to 2k damage without exposes and all applied selfbuffs and target debuffs, mitigated by all medic dr buffs that is still in the field of 1k, so more than enough to pick a whole healthbar if the shields are down beforehand, unless you somehow manage to have more than 1k health.
Yes you have to crit and flank for that.
We can do that later this day if you like, i can't right now, but tbh there really is no reason to prove that a shot can take away a whole bar if no shield is in the way.
If you want to stick to your little math example, take out the both bug ambushes but add in a full focus fire damage resist debuff, the flank bonus in damage(i don't know the number of that) and the critical bonus of the shot and the according trait.
Comments
As to the OP's suggestion for more rifle butt resistances while using melee, I would disagree because there are already so many options within the game to make melee extremely viable, and melee is so powerful that there needs to be a dangerous drawback (or else melee will be overpowered).
At character creation, there are various traits to give you resistances to knockback, hold, and roots. (There is also a trait to give you +10% physical damage.) Also, there are stacking resistances (of various types) that you will receive once you have been held or knocked back. These resistances are given to you for free regardless if you have picked them at character creation.
For professions, you have even more options. Tactical has Close Combat kit. Engineers have Weapons Malfunction plus Fuse Armor (root). I believe Science has the most options, with Hypospray Dylovene (physical damage buff), Gravimetric Shift (root), and Neural Neutralizer (AoE placate). Also, Vulcans have Nerve Pinch and Mind Meld.
As for Rifle Butt spam being a problem, I truly disagree. You could (1) use a knockback shield, or (2) rifle butt them in return. If you're a Science officer, you could use Sonic Pulse (knockback) when they are in close range. Also keep in mind that you get various hold and rifle butt resistances after you've been hit.
I simply believe rifle butt is a fair gameplay tactic and has been greatly improved since the patch. It would happen in real life or on the Star Trek TV shows. Rifle butt should be used 33% of the time since it is on your 3 key and should be given equal importance to your weapon attacks on the 1 and 2 key. Both sides have rifle butt, and there are simple ways to counter it (such as keeping a distance). If you are being rifle butt spammed in a 3v1 situation, it is no worse than being shot at with energy weapon attacks in a 3v1 situation. The problem is that you are outnumbered, not that rifle butt is being spammed. And at least if you are being rifle butted in a 3v1 situation, your knockback shield will give you some breathing space. Or your teammates can shoot a Blast Assault weapon to knockback everyone who is surrounding you. There are too many options to list!
So, I disagree that there needs to be any changes or improvements to rifle butt. There are many resistances (which you can get as traits or automatically) and counters to rifle butt (mostly available to the Science profession). Melee is also already quite powerful in damage considering that it bypasses shields and has high expose chance, so there definitely needs to be a gameplay tradeoff of damage versus getting hit with a rifle butt. If you are on the floor exposed, I believe you have a chance to get a dodge defense bonus against exploit attacks. Or, you could use a shield recharge to simply remove your expose (and obviously if you are Science, you can remove your exposes with kit abilities).
I actually use a Bat'Leth in my video here (and I think I do a decent job), and at one point achieve an 800 crit hit at 2:45. A crit with that damage amount is instant death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg
However, I do think the problem with MARTIAL ARTS is that it doesn't make you "close in" on your target like a Bat'Leth. I definitely think this should be changed.
I don't really agree with this. The knockback shield is only so effective. Rifle butt doesn't just counter melee, it's pretty damn useful as an offensive power. And having to counter the tertiary attack on a ranged weapon with the tertiary attack on ranged weapon seems kind of stupid. I believe it also has all the chances to expose that melee has.
And of course, as far as I can tell, the rifle butt hold can't be cleared with hypos. Ever other hold based on some fancy science kit, sure. But not the wrong end of rifle to your face, federation medical science can't fix that.
Thank you for your reply. I realize now that I should have clarified more about the Bat'Leth.
Every Bat'Leth slash is an expose attack. See the description here: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1423/4599403924_bb5b18a1fc_o.jpg
The Bat'Leth has an incredibly better chance to expose than energy weapons because expose energy weapons only have the chance to expose on the tertiary attack, whereas all three Bat'Leth attacks offer expose chances. So that is a major benefit to the Bat'Leth. Not to mention that the Bat'Leth attack will bypass shields.
Thus there needs to be a gameplay drawback for such a powerful weapon--and I believe rifle butt is the most fair drawback.
As for the effectiveness of the Knocback Shield, I truly believe this is the best shield for the very specific problem that the OP pointed out--namely, people getting too close and rifle butt spamming you. The knockback has a small chance to occur when damage is being taken; when you are being spammed with an attack, the chance for knockback greatly increases. Thus it is a viable option against rifle butt spam.
Currently, hypos only release you from "fragile" holds (such as the Science skill "Stasis Field"). I absolutely agree that hypos should be extended to release you from all holds.
You cant be serious... Riflebutt is incredibly broken, in so many ways that it just hurts.
The ability's inherent knockback is not the problem here.
Just some points:
1.The hold duration on rb alone(without the exploitive reapply through further spamming while a hold already is in effect) is way too long for a damageproof hold.
It has the long duration of a fragile hold(like ag or sf), and should either also be changed into a fragile hold(which would TRIBBLE the rb spammers and all problems with that ability with one simple change), or stay damageproof but be brought in line with other damageproof holds, which means reducing its duration at least by half.
2. Hypos do not break rb holds the great majority of time, that needs to be fixed.
3. The immunities/resistances do not work correctly, if at all. Not only can a rb hold be extended almost indefinately by further spamming of rb and a little "procc" luck, also after a full rb hold expires, you can still immediately be caught in another rb hold.
4, Riflebutt with all its rediculous powerfull properties, is about the most powerful single move in the game( knockback + 6-9 seconds damageproof hold + expose chance). An ability that powerful needs(additional to the fixes for the obvious bugs) a cooldown of at least 15 seconds.
Hi Goukes. Thanks for the reply.
Note to self: don't participate in the forums.
Now... there are so many ways to counter rifle butt. For instance, watch my video here at 0:17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgst9WL4MVY There is a trick (and several others) to defeat rifle butt, which you can see me do at the very beginning of that video. Also look at my second video at 3:30 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg At 3:35 I dodge a rifle butt. Later (at 3:50) I get hit with rifle butt AND a stun grenade. There is very, very little difference in combat and fighting goes on as normal. Those two holds are not a huge drawback in that situation, and I actually even dodged the first rifle butt. In fact, throughout that entire clip (which was made pre-patch when rifle butt was even worse), I am held many times and it is not a big distraction. I think people are over-dramatizing rifle butt and all holds in general. The key thing is that I am not outnumbered.
Moreover, if you watch my videos, I use rifle butt all the time and no one is down for a very long duration. Nobody.
Secondly, the problem with rifle butt spam is mainly in situations where you are outnumbered. The problem I believe is that you are outnumbered, not that you are being spammed with rifle butt.
The immunities to holds do work. There are different "kinds" of hold immunities though (phaser hold immunity, rifle butt hold immunity, stun beam hold immunity, etc.). As far as combining these various types of holds, that would an interesting concept to address.
My main objection to people who complain about rifle butt is that, it is available to both sides and everyone can use it. The simple counter is to keep distance, and if you see someone dumb enough to charge at you, then get ready to rifle butt them before they do it to you. (Although if you watch me play, I am notorious for close combat and rifle butting people.) If people are bothered, then pick the resistance traits at character creation, especially if you are planning to be a close-combat melee PvP'er.
If I were to voice my true opinion, I would go so far as to say that RIFLE BUTT IS TOO WEAK. There needs to be more serious consequences for close combat. People need to stay far away and plan for distance much more.
As for two rifle butt holds in a row, some stuff like that I think is fair and a rare occurrence. It honestly doesn't bother me at all because it gives me time to think about the situation, and also I have dodge bonuses to attacks while being held.
While I don't see as much of a problem with rifle butt as the OP does, the OP is very correct in that rifle butt makes melee significantly harder. Unless there was a major change in the last patch (only done one ground PvP match since and I don't remember if they actually got rid of rifle-butt hold) here is the problem. The animation/action/whatever you want to call it for rifle butt is shorter than for the bat'leth. With the hold proc this means that statistically speaking, rifle butt vs. bat'leth is going to go rifle butt's favor more often because he's going to hit first/more often.
To the OP,
There are a massive number of counters to rifle butt. Most have to do with dictating the range of an engagement. Now, it necessarily requires that you be flexible in changing your style to suit the situation.
Tactical: Photon grenade (knockback), Stun grenade (hold), Leg sweep (knockback), Motion accelerator (hold immunity), Suppressing fire (run speed debuff).
Engineer: Mine barrier (slow), Transphasic Bomb (knockback), Fuse Armor (slow)
Science: Anesthezine Gas (hold + slow), Stasis Field (hold), Sonic Pulse (knockback), Tachyon Harmonic (knockback), Gravimetric shift (root)
Traits: Rapture (Lethean. Hold), Mind Meld (Vulcan. Hold), Nerve Pinch (Vulcan. Hold), Telekinetic (Knockback)
Items: Hypo (breaks hold)
Weapons: High density beam rifle (repel), stun pistol (hold)
I'm sure I've missed a few things, but the point is there are multiple ways to counter rifle-butt spam, including controlling range, hold resistance, curing hold, etc. Not to mention, if you have a competent medic on your team, you should welcome rifle-butt spam, because while you're being spammed, everyone else is hitting your attacker with powerful attacks and the medic is curing your exposes with Medical Tricorder and Vascular Regenerator.
Given, I may be underestimating the bat'leth due to playing a medic--medic kits may be more of a hard counter to melee damage than I've realized, now that I think about it.
Correct me if I'm wrong--someone attacking with rifle butt/palm strike generates as many expose chances as a bat'leth, plus the 100% knockback and 50% hold chance; they just don't deal appreciable damage?
The added bonus with the Bat'Leth is that the Bat'Leth knockback is an area of effect knockback, whereas the energy weapons are single target.
Well it is right it is available to both sides, my problem with it is not being "unfair" or whatever, my problem with it is (besides the stated obvious bugs that need fixing) that the concept of rb is pretty funkilling, and its "scrub"ish approach, as spamming the 3 with all the immensly powefull properties rb offers without any kind of cd on it, proves to very often be so much more effective than going through any variety of different specials your class/kit has to offer.
Also i can absolutely assure you that the immunities to rb hold do not work most of the time, if there are "rare" occurrences" it would be the resistances actually doing something, not the other way around.
An abilitiy that is so powerful needs a shorttimed cd(if its properties remain unchanged), i'd say 15 seconds, but 10 or 12 is fine too, hell even 6 would suffice and would bring it in line with the shortest-cd abilities available on kits or weapons.
The point of resistances not taking effect immediately the moment the hold is applied but only after the hold expires, is imho a failed design, or do you really think it is a good design that a rb hold can be extended to near infinity with 2 people spamming rb on you, or easily to durations of 10 seconds(or even longer, if the proccs are lucky) with a single person spamming rb on you?
I don't think so, but that is in fact a matter of opinion and personal preference of how complicated and variable you want your pvp gameplay to be.
What is not a matter of opinion though, but plain buggy is that the resistance system most of the time even fails when a rb hold expires naturally and is instantly reapplied and the fact that hypos fail to break rb holds most of the time.
Before another war of opinions starts,i know we don't agree on rb spam, you obviously like it, i obviously don't, so let's cut that TRIBBLE, but i'd be happy if at least the most obvious bugs would be adressed.
If the first rifle butt only knocked you back, you actually have about 9 seconds of not getting screwed by that power.
I'm not certain of how this works with multiple opponents.
As long a you are in the hold, the hold can be extended by further rbs.
Afaik the hold resistance is applied only when the hold expires, but even then you can get caught in another rb hold again.
Edit: Anyone believing rb hold resistances work properly , or that rb holds can not be extended are invited to watch the video meow posted, there are tons of scenes in it where klingon players are rb hold extended(with often 3 feds spamming rb on him), and immediately after coming out of a hold reapplied with another rb hold, the most distinctive scene being the one in the 2nd part of the video, with kevin being chainheld/knockbacked for almost 30 seconds(extended rb holds aswell as immediate reapllies of rb holds after one expiring).
i would like to hear your feedback, and your votes.. yes or no, either way.
Thanks for the careful observation. You are talking about 4:30 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woAy2d4vA6E
What happened there is that I am using rifle butt, fuse armor, and sniper shot with knocback and the special KB3 knockback proc. My teammates are also using the sniper shot with knockback. The simple thing is that we outnumber him. Yet amazingly he survives the entire ordeal. After all those knockbacks, rifle butts, and fuse armor, he survives. Thus it is not a big deal to me. If anything, this approach gimped us in that situation.
So, my strategy consists of using two holds--first is rifle butt, and second is fuse armor. Then I use the knockbacks from my shields and the KB3 sniper shot. This is to maximize my role as crowd control, and holds are important to the crowd control class. That is why I am strongly against a common hold resistance---there are kit abilities (such as fuse armor and stasis field) whose most useful effect is the hold, and thus should be counted separately from rifle butt. I use rifle butt hold and fuse armor hold as a coupled attack, and this is my most important attack as an engineer focused on crowd control. If rifle butt granted immunity to all holds, then fuse armor would not be useful to me anymore. Mind you, fuse armor is a tier 5 skill that is extremely expensive for skill points and I have it maxed out for the sole reason to increase the hold duration.
I didn't even mention fuse armor, i have no problem with it, or kit-holds in general, but just considering that fuse armors hold is indeed a tier 5 ability, but its hold is shorter than the one of rb, and its not spammable(15 second cd?) shows just how broken the rb hold is, or not?
I don't want fuse armor to be changed at all, its a kit ability, it is a good ability, and it has a justifiable cd, seriously i have no problems with it.
But rbs hold alone is already too long, spammable, extendable, repeatable, thats just too much, esp. when a resistance system IS SUPPOSED to be in effect, but seems to do nothing most of the time.
To bring your video example again, the scene with kevin in part 2 of2, starts at 4:25 where he gets his first rb hold, the full duration, less than one second out of it he gets the second one in, the third one follows just as the 2nd runs out or is about to run out, thats 3 consequtive rb holds already, almost 20 seconds of hold through rb alone with less than one second window, then you apply fuse armor, but also deliver a 4th rb but which slams him into the wall and holds him again for an overall of close to 30 seconds!
That is just rediculous.
Oh and he survived this ordeal cause he got healed.^^
I know all that and i watched the scene carefully and only gave attention to holds, not to kbs(that also could have been caused by snipeshots etc.).
As stated, before fuse armor hold even took effect, he was already been thrown into his 3rd rb hold(the 3rd one being an extension of the second one), and after that directly thrown into a 4th rb hold+kb, 30 seconds into that ordeal he used a hypo, impossible to see if he could move again at that point(you finished with an additional rb, so he might have gotten another rb hold extension at that point), as you went away from him there incapable of killing him with him beaing healed(sidenote, i found it funny that you suspected orange to be the team healer, while he was mostly busy keeping himself alive, as he had your extra attention^^).
Not at any point did rb hold resistances actually do anything through this whole play.
Hmm... in theory, he should have been able to rifle butt me back as soon as he got out of the hold. I am not sure if he had that opportunity and missed it, or if there was no chance for him to do it. Mind you I attack very quickly. Thanks for pointing this out to us all.
Well maybe he could have done that, maybe he wanted to shoot something, maybe his window for rb was too short, as you have been able to set your own next rb before him, as he was .. well held , you know.
All this is irrelevant though concerning the problem of resistances very obviously not working properly, we have video prove of that now, very detailed even thank you for that.^^
Also the fact that hypos most of the time don't break rb holds, has to be fixed.
Actually that is all i want atm. Make hypos work 100% of the time on rb holds, and also resistances to apply and work 100% of the time when a hypo(or the normal expiration) gets me out of the hold. I don't have to remind that this is how it is intended, so i am not asking for any altering of an ability, only for its proper fixing.
For your "tricks" to bypass riflebutt-holds, this is obviously an unintended effect of these "standtocast" abilities and by that to be considered bugabuse to use these abilities purposedly to counter holds, which it isn't meant for.
Ofc that is impossible to prove, as you allways may just have wanted to use that ability in that special moment for its meant purpose, but i don't think a player should be forced to such behaviour, when the abilities instead could just be properly fixed.
I agree 100% that hypos should remove all holds, including and especially rifle butt hold, instead of only stasis field.
I only Ground PvP. PvE is too easy (even on the highest settings), and Space PvP seems dumbed down on tactics compared to ground PvP (just my opinion, save the flames please). Ground PvP, even though you have to use a 10 year old engine (I played this engine in 2000 with Neverwinter Nights), The intricacies of toon placements, breaking LOS to kill CD's on specials, Focus grabbing engineer trash (that actually harms and exposes you), staying out of the fire (some people STILL do not get this one, after all these years, heh) and so on, make ground PvP more reliant on playing skill.
From 10 or so people who have friended me over the last month so I could help them with ground PvP (yea, they actually send tells and ask how to get better), all but one have given it up. The main gripe is RB spamming. Period.
Even today, the ONE match that actually kicked off was T3 and we were outnumbered 5v3. When it became clear to the other team we were winning, guess what the started to do....you got it, charge in all 5 and RB spam until the got exposes, then "poof". The last quarter of the match digressed to hit and run (and run and run) to break the blob and pick off the stragglers.
IMO fixing this ONE ability would probably draw enough people back so queues might pop a bit more often.
As the previous posters have postured back and forth, I have thought pretty hard about this one. You see, at t4 and t5, the dynamics of Healing, IMO, necessitate RB. It is literally impossible to take down a good healer without locking them down somehow (which gives me a chuckle seeing Sugery's "We challenge you all" thread, as they have 2 very capable healers, and generally a 3rd who can don the kit if need be, which is pretty much "I Win").
If "I" were to change it, I would make it pretty simple. Keep the skills (RB, PS and Bat"leth) for the layman and give it the same KB and interrupt capability as it is now. The advanced Hold and Exploit (same with Bat'Leth) would be incorporated into a Tac kit (Like Martial Arts). Look at Lunge. Close with a chance to KB. Why even use it when you can double tap "W" (giving you big evade bonuses) and close a greater distance, coming up and hitting 3 with a chance to proc a KB, Hold, AND Expose? With my programmable mouse, I can one button this action.
Another Idea is to make only the KB/Interrupt able to proc UNLESS your opponents shields are dropped.
IMO even making popping a hypo remove it would not help, as the CD is also popped, and unless you are in a 1v1, you are probably gonna need the hypo for when your *cough* health like....drops. Hypos also do not grant an immunity buff, so the spammin can continue until moral improves...err...they get the next proc.
Maybe having consumables apply an immunity buff for 10-15 secs (for whatever the item is, Shields for expose, hypos for holds and charges for WM) would also deaden the issue also, PROVIDED Hypos are made to work on ALL holds.
My experience shows me, beyond any doubt in my mind, that this ONE ability has chased more people from ground PvP than anything else, and I have been assured (by the ones in this boat that I talk with) they will not come back until it is taken care of.
So, like RB/PS or not, it seems that MANY more people do not, and fixing it SOMEHOW will bring more into pretty much the only part of this game that gives me that edge of the seat "thrill"...Ground PvP.
Just my 2386782634 cents.
*shrug*
While i, obvious form my earlier statements, agree with you on rb being way to strong(an ability that provides a more powerfull cc than pretty much all cc abilities that are available on kits, and in addition not having any kind of cd opposed to kit-ccs that have one of at least 10 seconds), and should be changed, i do not think it is a good idea to put the current rb properties just on a kit. that way that kit will propably just be a necessity for that class to be used, instead of any other.
Hypos removing an rb stun is intended, this would be a bugfix that is long overdue, not an altering of any intended ability, also the resistence system that is currently in place, but doesn't work properly, would prevent an immediate reapply of another rb after a hold expires through a hypo being used, once again, if it worked properly.
I don't say that these long overdue fixes alone would bring rb in line with other abilities(it is still far superior to any other kind off cc unless a cooldown will be introduced for it) but at least that would give players a dependable tool to work against rb spamming and regain their fun in games.
A little remark also on your healers comment: Good tacs can take out healers without expose proccs, without rb spam(rb spam/=single rb usage) and without help from others, that may sometimes take a little while(anything between 2 and 30 seconds) though as it might need more than one attempt, but its absolutely doable even with the healer being fully aware.
With coordinated focusfire of two capable tacs, healers are doomed in a few seconds if they don't get their asses out of harms way, or being supported by another player.
If you talk about another sci or an engineer trying to kill a healer, that might indeed take ages, but that should be considered normal i'd assume, its not like the other way around the healer would wreck havoc upon an engineer or another sci either.
I find that hard to believe in all seriousness. You see, ALL the "Good" healers I know will close on you and Bat'Leth or RB spam you...they would kill a Tac 1v1 in ANY ground game (And yes, I play Tacs...4 of them, and they do not suck).
I think that generalization is not true in all cases, at all.
Remember, I said "Good" healer.
Go make a video killing Surgery or Pwn'du on Otha, I would like to see how you kill them. I am always up for learning, heh.
As powerful as the are, Melee (RB, PS, and Bat'Leth) is a healers best friend, and 1v1 with one using melee, they should, if good, be able to kill anyone, period.
Since i am klingon, i have not yet been fighting against surgery or u.b.pwn'ed(which i assume is the one you meant), but i kill fed scis on my tac all the time, sometimes i need 2 or 3 attempts and a prepared critical flank snipershot (FF applied, shields being down, TO active, energy cell active) will allways drop a fully buffed medic from 100 health to zero.
If you cant flank the medic for your snipe and have bad critluck, you may need more attempts, or even completely fail, but if all falls in place and you prepare your attacks properly the medic will drop.
Like i said i havn't been able to fight against surgery, but i faught alongside surgery, and alan(one of the best federal tacs on the ground atm in terms of burst) has dropped surge couple of times in seconds, aswell as he dropped my medic several times.
You should also see Piii(most propably the best ground tac overall atm) wipe the floor with federal medics, that is scary.
Yeah... ummm :rolleyes:
...
Yeah. No.
No tactical can kill my science by themselves without abusing that bug, unless they critical flank me twice in a row.
I have seen Alan take you out midfight more than once, we had a discussion about ambush bugabuse already, and you see it everywhere, you even accused me of doing that, which i can with 100% safety say is a lie or if we keep it friendly a plain false observation on your part, yet you insisted on having seen me use 2 ambushes.
But whatever, my critical ambush3 flank snipershots deal up to 2k damage without exposes and all applied selfbuffs and target debuffs, mitigated by all medic dr buffs that is still in the field of 1k, so more than enough to pick a whole healthbar if the shields are down beforehand, unless you somehow manage to have more than 1k health.
Yes you have to crit and flank for that.
We can do that later this day if you like, i can't right now, but tbh there really is no reason to prove that a shot can take away a whole bar if no shield is in the way.
If you want to stick to your little math example, take out the both bug ambushes but add in a full focus fire damage resist debuff, the flank bonus in damage(i don't know the number of that) and the critical bonus of the shot and the according trait.