Since the release of Star Trek Online there has been countless threads asking - DOES "X" CAPTAIN TYPE WORK WITH "X" SHIP ?
LIST #1. - WHICH HYBRIDS ARE THE MOST EFFECTIVE
Tactical Captain /
CruiserScience Captain /
Escort (Raptor)LIST #2. - WHICH HYBRIDS ARE THE LEAST EFFECTIVE
Science Captain /
CruiserEngineering Captain /
EscortTactical Captain /
Science
I would like to open a discussion on the topic that will hopefully become a helpful reference and compilation of experience PvP player and PvP fleet opinions on the subject.
I will start the topic off by addressing the first ship on the list.
Ship hybrid 1 -
Tactical Captain /
Cruiser
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PROS: Extremely viable sustained DPS. Burst capabilities vs. a non-shielded target can be surprising because of Torpedo crit + APA + HYT. Very effective survivability and support capabilities. Survivability and support capabilities will increase once tradable BOs become available. Best captain type for Cruisers in terms of maneuverability thanks to APA. Arguably the easiest ship type to fully benefit from GO DOWN FIGHTING!
CONS: Damage wise without an Engineer's EPS you have to figure out how to make up +25 weapons power. Plan your weapon loadouts, Engineering ship consoles, and skills wisely to compensate. Decrease in survivability because of no EPS Transfer (TSS / Shield resist), RSF, Miracle worker and lack of level III ET BO ability. Slightly lower support capability for now because of non-tradable BOs and EPS Transfer.
OVERALL: This is one of the most viable hybrids in the game if you plan your skills and layout your weapons / components correctly. More flexible in pug PvP then engineering captain / cruiser combo and still very viable in premade PVP. If you're looking for a hybrid combo that can pack a punch over time while staying in the fight and supporting the team look no further.
Personally I find the Tac vs. eng debate to me as a personal preference between this -
APA, FOMM, GO DOWN FIGHTING! vs. EPS Transfer and Engineering Team III with the biggest difference being APA vs. EPS Transfer.
Engineering level III BO abilities are going to be tradable soon so not much to worry about there long term.
Ship hybrid 2 -
Science Captain /
Escort (Raptor)
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PROS: SNB, SNB, SNB. Did I mention SNB? One of the last potential "I WIN" moves in the game. Couple that with the fact you're running DHC + Buffs and it's arguably the best way of taking most ships and noobs instantly down in 1v1. Toss in the fact you're in a ship that can field TSS III ! DHC + Buffs - APA = still pwns! You give up FOMM however you gain SENSOR Scan. One of the best resistance debuffs in the game. Survivability, which is never bad to have if you're in an escort!, is increased with dampening field. And how annoying is Photonic Fleet? APA movement bonus isn't as important since you're already in a ship with a high turn rate.
CONS: APA, APA, APA. Yes even though you have SNB your damage will be lower overall in group pvp. That little bit of extra damage could make all the difference especially if you already have a science captain or two in your group. You lose out on Tactical initiative also recharging your abilities.
OVERALL: It's never bad to bring more SNB to the fight especially when it's arguably the best captain ability currently available in the game. Add in the fact you're also bring an additional TSS III and you can see why this hybrid has instant appeal for many players. VM and FBP aren't as sought after as they used to be making this hybrid a valid choice particular in pugs, 1v1, and zone PvP.
[RESERVED]
Comments
Few things,
Like you said
CONS:
It lacks Engineering Team 3, which itself made me not want to pilot a cruiser on my Tac anymore.
Offensive Engineering slots are less than effective (DEM, Boarding Party)
PROS:
You benefit from efficient engines greatly - whereas a Tac/Escort requires MK X engines
Calling targets VIA a cruiser is much easier than on an escort who is constantly maneuvering
Increased survivability due to the common statement "kill escorts first" this also leads to an easier time calling targets - since your... still alive
Boarding Party III is available via Exchange bridge officers.
Also according to the old 1.0 version chart from this link http://sto.nexsoft.de/ - TACTICAL officer skills actually modified the Boarding Party ability. Weird since it is an engineering ability even though it does sound like a Tactical Team is going in and kicking butt! lol He currently has no abilities listed probably because it hasn't been verified or verified recently. I remember Minimax testing this a few months ago and saying that Tactical Ground skill - Security modified it.
Although I cannot verify any of the Tactical skill point effectiveness however because I have not tested it with those parameters in mind.
DEM III last time I checked is bugged and can by trained by anyone who puts 9 points into the appropriate Engineering Skill.
I think it's horrible compared to the other two captain combinations for a few reasons.
#1. Damage is lower because of no Sensor Scan, FOMM, APA, or GDF.
#2. Damage is lower and players survive because of no SNB
#3. RSF doesn't matter as much because of TSS and if your RSP is down an Escort is going burn through your shields regardless especially if they're using DHC + Tactical buffs. Also if you get SNB RSF doesn't matter but you could say that about a lot of other abilities too.
#4. EPS Power Transfer is meh for Escorts. If you plan your loadout properly as well as your skills power isn't an issue. If you're in an escort you sure as hell better not be thinking you're support either lol.
#5. Nadion Inversion - see above.
Bottom line it's just a really bad combo in my opinion.
Lower damage, class support capabilities / power increases irrelevant for escort mostly, and RSF isn't enough to make up for what you lose.
Yes, in Season 1.1 Engineers can play every ship well - both Fed and Klingon.
Optimal in Star Cruisers as a healer and Fleet Escorts as DPS on Fed side, while optimal in BoP as DPS and battlecruisers as healer on Klingon side.
Anyone who says otherwise is not a very good Engineer IMO, or has non-optimal specs.
mmm but some folk seem to get it right. I have seen some engineer's in escorts/BoP pull off insane damage+kills. They just seem to be able to do far more sustained DPS than I can. Fair enough my burst damage is higher as a TAC, but I'm usually focused and toast before too long or I need to bug out. Engineers seem to have a bit more staying power from what I have seen.
But I want to point out that nobody should generalize my general observations about a general statement.
While there is something to be said about the awesome power of DHC + CRF (regardless of Captain type) - I honestly don't see the additional "staying power" with an engineer in an escort for reasons previously listed.
I'm not saying that you can't do some damage with that combo because let's face it the real star of the show is DHC + CRF.
However you just don't benefit NEARLY as much as an engineer as would with a tac in an escort.
If the engineering captain abilities are giving you that much more staying power it's not because they're good it's because the other team is really bad and allowing them to make a difference.
You probably would have even stayed alive vs. that team or player without the engineering abilities and just have killed them that much faster as a tac.
Also if your engineer / escort is doing comparable DPS to that of a tactical captain then I would kick that tactical captain out of your fleet immediately.
I've found that engi/escort can work out well. Honestly, I think all the class/ship combos can be effective because they just lead to different playstyles/loadouts. An engi/escort for example may end up focusing as a secondary DPS machine, focusing on TSS and survivability to be more strategic than a spike damage tac/escort.
This is speculative, at best.
#1 RSF + EPtS gives higher resist to shields than Sensor Scan removes. FOMM, APA, or GDF are all great abilities for high DPS, but Engineers have options too.
#2 Or higher because of EPS III, as Engineers can use heavier weapons with no power loss.
#3 TSS is available to everyone, and I'd rather have EPS III than be without if both groups are using TSS. This is advantage Engineer, not disadvantage.
#4 You have greater options for loadout as an Engineer in an escort because you have more power available to you. Power is a limiting factor for Science and Tactical - not Engineers. Thus Engineers have more options here.
#5 It is nice when it is available, but that long cooldown sucks TRIBBLE and offers barely marginal assistance over the duration of a match, so this point you win in spades.
There are several reasons an Engineer in Season 1.1 does very well in Escorts. It begins with an escort beign able to take better advantage of the added bonus to shield power.
#1 More power to everything. The boost from EPS III to Engine power is very nice for an engineer because it improves turn rate, adds an additional 5% shield resist, and increases base defense (all of which stack). When you start stacking Hazard Emitters, Engineer Team I, Science Team II, EPtS I, RSF, and RSP I an Engineer in a Fleet Escort has serious survivability with no loss to DPS. Throw in a Miracle Worker and and Engineer escort can survive when others can't.
Keep in mind that the difference in DPS is marginal in most cases, the difference between dealing 50K in a single pass with all buffs and 55K in a single pass with all buffs - both are enough to pop any ship. Engineers in Escorts are more likely to overcome TSS III more easily than Tacticals or Science - indeed if EPS III is constantly being used, TSS III will impact an Engineer 33% less than Tacticals or Science in Escorts, particularly since Engineers are optimal in Fleet Escorts which have an extra Ensign slot for EPtS I (~17 more shield power).
#2 Better Resists - Rotate Shield Frequency is very useful defending against cruisers and science ships. The 50% resistance to all damage to shields makes those ships, who already deal damage at a slower rate, DPS at half effectiveness for 30 seconds. That is a big deal, because it changes how they would usually attack the escort.
When you start stacking the survivability factor into an escort by an engineer you will find the DPS difference between a Tactical/Science and Engineer in an escort is marginal, at best. The skills can stack, under certain circumstances, to give the Escort an extra round of offensive buffs in a firefight, longer time between heals for healers, and other benefits that other escorts cannot offer.
I think you need to go back and test Ninja. You've missed something in your analysis. If you'd like to see what I've done to make my Fed Engineer one nasty mfer in an escort, find me in game. Most of my Klingon Science and Tactical friends, many of which are named in the best pvp list thread, won't fight my escort 1v1 anymore in a cap and hold because they have learned the hard way they will lose that fight more than they win it with their BoP.
By the way, the BoP is also great for a DPS Engineer, for the same survivability reasons. 1v1 / face to face - the Engineer Escort/BoP will survive more often than the Science/Tactical Escort/BoP - and that includes when SNB is used because Engineers with RSF doesn't need RSP to handle the alpha strike of an enemy Escort/BoP, thus have RSP available after SNB is used (unlike their counterparts).
The Engineering benefits are still meager for that class of ship vs. decent players and are more focused for 1v1 encounters almost exclusively. Overall Engineering buffs are just not as effective as Tactical buffs in an escort for most situations.
EPS Transfer is nice to counter TSS but your team should be supporting you with this in group play.
The damage and crit bonuses from a Tactical escort make the difference in group play especially when the focused ship is getting healed and +resists.
RSF sorry your shields will not be online. Next.
As far as my analysis I base it off of the fact that I run one of the only two competitive PvP fed premade teams in the game and we don't lose unless it's against each other. Hit me up in game and we'll do a 5v5 Cracked premade so I can demonstrate.
I'm also sad to say that I have earned almost 30,000 PvP5 marks. lol
I can see your appeal with 1v1 to some extent (mainly with overcoming TSS III drain) however I would still choose the Sci / Escort hybrid in that scenario if I wanted to make a hybrid escort.
The amount of bad players that are floating around in PvP you could probably make a less then optimal hybrid selection work no doubt. It's just that you would be much more useful and effective choosing one of the other two imho.
We had a Cracked Planetoid match the other day with 3 of us using T4 ships + 1 pugger vs. a fully decked out T5 premade. We stomped them.
Yes it was a 4v5 in their favor.
All kinds of situations exist like that in this game because of the wealth of really bad PvPers on fed side.
Yes and it's not a bad hybrid.
Now you have revealed yourself, as guessing and assuming instead of actually testing. A good engineer in an escort has more trouble with Tacticals than Science. If you had done any testing, you would already know this, and know why.
Your guide is flawed if it is based on the logic of being optimal in a 5v5 premade. Guides that tell people how to fit into one specific team role for 5v5s are only useful in highlighting how terrible STO PvP is because players must conform to fit a specific nitch of limited gameplay for effectiveness. The real problem is the guide is useless to the vast majority of the PvPers in the game who don't play 5v5 premade style of king of the crack rock. Believe it or not, Cap and Hold is the measurement of good PvP in STO - even if Cap and Hold is terrible and stupid in STO.
Imagine a game set in the context of conquest of the galaxy where 5 specific PvP builds all working together is defined as complete excellence. In such a context, that is either a small galaxy or a terrible PvP game.
Telling people Engineers in Escorts is a bad build is silly stupid when you have not seriously tested it. You under value survivability of a single ship outside of your 5v5 settings, probably because you rely so heavily on your team mates to keep you alive in those settings. For the rest of us who play under different circumstances, those builds you haven't tested but tout as terrible might be a lot more useful to us than the ones you recommend - particularly since most of the PvP playerbase in this game plays a completely different style than you do.
I want to be clear though - I do completely agree with you that in organized competition, an Engineer in a Cruiser is a much better teammate. My main ship when flying with my fleet is a cruiser. However, in the more free-for-all scenarios of Kerrot or Cap and Hold, an Engineer can dish out DPS with the best of them because the escort has more survivability from the surrounding factors one finds in those scenarios.
TSS is the favorite flavor of premades because of its stacking effect, and as such will probably be the next nerf. Hopefully all they do is remove the stacking effects, instead of make the skill totally useless. Sorry man, but I'm not sure what to respond to this other than to say even tss III isn't taking my escorts shields down in a 1v1 meaning RSF is giving my shields 50% damage resist to your hits - but then again, I'm an Engineer.
You really should test stuff before giving advice. It's bad form to give advice based on untested theory.
That is probably a lot in Fed circles, but I play a mostly Klingon and 30K is about average over on this side of the Galaxy. I have 25K on my Klingon and 12K on my Fed.
Wouldn't it be nice to spend these marks on something useful?
Ninjaboy's right in that, tac/escort is the best escort build. In pvp, especially pre-made, it's all about burst damage. Make em pop before anyone has time to do anything to save them. Nobody does this better than tac/escort.
In my fleet, we have two of the best escorts in the game. When we pvp, my role (in a tac/cruiser) is almost exclusively to keep them alive. My damage output drops dramatically. Why? They kill the enemy so fast, I rarely even get to focus fire with them.
However, I disagree with nijaboy, in that no hybrid is great for a pre-made, good maybe, but not great. Though it's true DOB would never take anything other than a tac/escort, they also don't want tac/cruisers.
A cruiser's best team ability is Extend shields. However, once you pop that on a buddy, you become target number one to any moderately intelligent escort. A tac/cruiser would struggle to stay alive under moderate focus fire, an eng/cruiser could shrug it off. RSF plus ST2 plus EPtS would give over 90% reduction in damage hitting his shilelds. On top of the fact they have stronger shields and miracle worker.
You're assuming my insight is only for premades.
It's not and anyone actually reading it or that does in game PvP can see why.
Primarily it might lean towards GROUP PvP but not necessarily fleet premade.
There's some 1v1 insight tossed in there (how did you miss this) however 1v1 isn't the primary source of PvP at the moment.
You're also assuming I only listed ONE way to spec a ship (the very topic of the post says otherwise LOL)
In regards to my personal preference with Sci / Escort as a better choice then an Engineer / Escort it's based on actual in game experience with all three types of captains / escorts in play in pugs, 1v1 vs numerous captain/ship combos, and the highest level of PvP competition current available.
Read the thread again.
I am not sure where you're coming up with your "silly" notions.
Engineers in Escorts is a really bad combo whether you agree or not for all the facts I listed as well as the opinions expressed based on the highest level of pvp competition and overall group pug pvp experiences.
As I said before I'm sure you can make a bad hybrid spec work in the game currently due to all the bad fed players flying around but that will change (hopefully).
You live in your own fantasy world I think.
The RSF damage resist with your shield power up, in almost every normal pvp scenario, isn't going to matter much when that group turns to focus you.
You can pretend it does, you can pretend you tested it vs. average or better players, but if you really did do any testing you can see why it's irrelevant and rather lackluster.
However the crit bonus both CHANCE and IMPACT, extra damage (60% from APA + 50% from Go Down Fighting if you're at *100%* HULL + the -resist from FOMM) is huge.
You keep mentioning all you tests. Let's see your combat logs and parses then from your last 5 PvP encounters.
When you take your own advice and actually test your ramblings vs. decent players or when you become more experienced at PvP you will see I base my opinion on fact and real in game situations / performances.
It's easy to tell someone to test something but when that person has more experience then you, has already tested / observed it more thoroughly then you, and is willing to substantiate all the facts, theories, and opinions in game in a friendly in game 5v5 match you should accept the offer or gracefully decline by no longer posting.
I am sorry if I offended you by saying that an Engineer / Escort is a bad hybrid for most PvP circumstances but the facts and experiences by veterans players prove this to be true.
I am glad you are enjoying playing a spec most would consider inferior and are making it work.
That speaks as a testament to your patience and should be commended.
First you I dont think you understand weapon mechanics in the game, or the engineer captian skills.
EPS III increases all power levels simultaniously as well as regen. nadion inversion allows you to use half your energy weapons power. that being said an engineer captian using EPS III, and Nadion can effectivly fire thier weapons with 30% more power for a full 30 seconds.
attack pattern Alpha is good, but loses effectiveness after first strike.
an engineer however can maintain his buff through the entire firing cycle. ie a constant high dps burst.
engineer and science captians give up HYT III, Rapid fire III.
these can be replaced with Beam Overload III and target shields III
Tactical is kings of alpha strike DPS. (hit leathally hard once or twice)
engineers have a higher sustained dps and better survivablity to deliver that dps. (brute force appoach)
science brings snb, and sensor scan so they bring surgical strike capability but less survivability. (surgical approach to dps)
all three are valid approaches to escourt/raptor combat ships it all depends on your play style and tactics used.
This is a good example as why there are so many bad pvpers in the game.
Someone shooting over, "hey you don't understand" when it seems like you don't realize the basic game mechanics behind weapons power. The weapons cap is 125 Energy regardless of how much power you have or are reducing.
Our escorts stay near 125 under their full burst with the proper loadout / skill set.
Also Nadion Inversion is on a TEN MINUTE COOLDOWN for FOURTY seconds.
Wow that's really going to help you with sustained DPS lol.
GO DOWN FIGHTING is only on a FIVE minute CD for SIXTY seconds with **50%** more damage at 100% hull.
Note: Some of the values change slightly depending of course on the skills you pick but you get the point.
You're primarily losing 25 weapons power (which I already said you can compensate for the most part with a proper build). 125 is CAP regardless if you have 200 weapons power overcapped.
Again Nadion Inversion is on a TEN MINUTE COOLDOWN and I remember previous testing from another thread showed this ability to be bugged or under performing regardless.
Fixed
No. This is only true if the escort has no idea how to maintain properly setup their ship or pop their buffs. lol
The extra +25 Weapons power (from EPS Transfer power to all) isn't an issue unless your Escort is using a really bad build / loadout. Just ask Ultime or Xaiver.
EDIT:
I wouldn't use the term valid but more like "different" with Engineering / Escort being the most difficult and least effective in most PvP situations.
Is it as good as other Hybrids, I wouldn't know, just that I do not feel like I am underpowered compared to other escorts. I can go toe to toe with most of them and win 1v1. I become even more effective if I have a cruiser watching my back, but the same can be said about any escort.
I have had plenty of CnH matches where I was able to out-damage pure tacs in an escort, and still outheal engies in a cruiser. And I am usually the kind of person who tries to cap points, even at the expense of not pew-pewing for a few minutes.
Nadion Inversion IS useless because of its ridiculous cooldown. But EPSpT is still pretty useful against TSS or TES, not just on yourself, but on teammates as well. I don't use it for the extra power to weapons.
I think the viability of any hybrid, or any pure class for that matter, depends highly on the player flying it. Playing an Engineer in an Escort is not quite the same playstyle as a pure tac/escort. Basically it boils down to know your class.
This is a good key point and exactly what I was saying.
In an escort it's not going to be for extra power to weapons and Nadion Inversion is silly to even try and factor in the equation for overall sustained damage based on the facts of the ability.
This is an example of a good player making making a less then spectacular hybrid viable.
I did say you can make a less then optimal spec viable with a good player.
DHC + CRF does go a long way regardless of the captain type as I previously stated.
That's one of the biggest complaints from some players in the game (it's burst damage alone)
Hell you and I both know that we can make our TIER 4 ships seem viable.
We've DONE it vs. T5 PREMADES lol.
Actually, just a small correction there...the soft cap is 125 power indicated. You can have over 125 weapons power and the additional power is drained first. For example let's say you pop an EPtW I and now have 150 weapons power. If you fire four weapons in sequence the drain goes to -30 and thus 120 weapons power is the lowest you'll hit for not 95. Obviously when weapon cycling begins...or broadsiding in a cruiser...power drain will increase for the -10 power for each weapon when other weapons are also firing.
This "soft cap" mechanic is also demonstrated when combating TSS drains. With stacking of TSS you can be drained for more than -125 shield power. With full power to shields, EPtS, EPS Transfer, Batteries, etc you can produce a shield power rating above the soft cap of +125 and thus combat the drain. The soft cap does serve as the maximum multiplier for shield damage resistance unlike weapons power which continues to add the percentage modifier...hence some of the outrageous burst damage on Alpha Strikes along with the Tactical buff stacking of APA, APB, etc.
I still agree with your point of Tac/Escort being the highest DPS-capable combination with the Sci/Escort running second with the ability to strip all buffs (think RSP and hull resistance stacks here) from the target.
PS...yeah, you escort guys are lucky...Tier 4's look good while my Tier 4 cruiser is a space tugboat.
Many people think they can just hop into an escort and make everything go boom. The harsh truth is, if your alpha strike fails or is countered, your survivability diminishes exponentially unless you have a team or some buddies to back you up.
Am I as good as a pure tac/esc? If in a 1v1 against an equally skilled player, he will probably out-dps me. Then again, I might have 5-10 times as much healing as he does, at the very least.
That's what Hybrid means. You combine two things to create something that is bigger than the sum of its parts. You give up something in exchange for something else.
For me, that means I give away 100-200k damage in a CnH map for 80-150k healing. Not quite a 1:1 trade there. But healing usually means I keep another player alive long enough for him to heal himself, to provide me with healing and support, to shoot at the enemy, and most importantly, another target for others to shoot at. And being used to flying a beached whale, I feel pretty naked when I fly my escort, so I like it when I'm not being shot at! :P
I agree I posted a lot about this in the past (and a little in this thread) see my Tactical Cruiser vs. Engineer Cruiser energy posts or overcapping in this thread.
In one of the main energy threads you'll see Engineers getting their overcaps to 170 and 180 energy (although it will always show 125 unless you drain below that or your buffs wear off).
It's also nice to be aware of the variances in weapon cycle duration if weapon energy economy is important (see the turrets vs. beam array threads).
Here's a good list that shows explains how much weapons damage you gain per point of energy.
It's essentially 2% per 1 point.
Don't worry the refits are coming soon. Too bad the "All good things" Cruiser requires 5 recruits.
Yes we already know you make every ship combo look GOOD!
Only because I'm so damn handsome!
Flying T4 ships is fun. But just like Bounty here, I wish I could refit my T4 to something a little bit better!
I ran an engi/sci build for a while, and its probably one of my fav hybrids. I used the dual HE and Sci Team combo, and set the ship up for Energy Syphon.... combined with EPS Transfer everything was 100+ Power.
For weap'n setups, I found the recon sci to be particularly effective as a torp boat... I had a Dual Beam up front, with a Quantum Launcher and a Tri Cobalt. In the Back was 2 Beam arrays and a Quantum. My standard tactic was Energy Syphon, TSS and HY2 at range, then evasive+ Brace for Impact (and depending on my mood, Ramming Speed) and the Tri Cobalt... if timed right (or lucky) you get the quantums and the tri cobalt all hitting at the same time, and on an unshielded quadrant... The whole setup was rather effective, and I usually had equal heals to DMG and frequently was in the top 3 for DPS (and a few times as the top DPS and Heals)
For me, this was a rather fun set up, and something I will probably revisit...as for now, I am trying my hand at all out healing and support in a Cruiser
Please read the thread before you post.
This thread is all about the celebration of Hybrid builds that WORK as well as covering those less viable.