Now I know lots of people been commenting on the Target Shield Subsystems and how they are overpowered in PvP. But after a PvP match I just had now, there was this one Federation Escort that used nothing but Target Engines, I feel that the whole Targe Subsystems ability needs to be looked at.
I thought Engineering Team supposed to repair subsystems, but apparently it does not. Even with full repair systems.
Yeah, ive come up against that guy myself. Luckly he couldnt out dps my heals, so i ended up coming out on top.
I dont want them to nerf TSS myself i just want a proper counter measure for stacked drains. Batteries only last 6 seconds... and have a 3 min global cooldown...
Plus you can never tell if a system was drained or knocked offline... it would be nice if it was more clear.
Yeah, ive come up against that guy myself. Luckly he couldnt out dps my heals, so i ended up coming out on top.
I dont want them to nerf TSS myself i just want a proper counter measure for stacked drains. Batteries only last 6 seconds... and have a 3 min global cooldown...
Plus you can never tell if a system was drained or knocked offline... it would be nice if it was more clear.
Indeed. I killed the guy 2 times while TSE was on me. He didn't get me until he got help on the third spawn run, plus my RSPs were all in cooldown. But the whole time that debuff was on me. So I thought, "What inconvience that I can't fix it."
A. those are counters, and there are a few he didn't list.
B. If you are using said counters and it isn't removing the affect, than the player using it on you, was exploiting. In which case, report him and take any evidence you can.
C. All the Target sub abilities combined are not as overpowered as SNB. Which, by the way has no counter. Only buff strip in a buff based game, without even a moderate cooldown.
Originally Posted by akumarev
BTS targets you (doesn't matter what level) use EPTS while your power levels are still high.
look at the debuffs on you, if it is only one BTS debuff you will be fine with a simple counter but you must let the effect run its course.
BTS stacked you must use EPTS use energy siphon or call for a EPS transfer from a teammate, again another reason why VOIP software is critical for competative PVP since typing it out will take to long.
wait a few to see the full drain affects.
If and when your shield power levels drop to 0 then hit a battery, by that time the first BTS debuff will be gone since they only last 17-20 seconds long.
If you notice all 3 being stacked on you then at that point you have a few options, get hull heals, engineer team (the hull resist is amazing on it and can help you take lots of hits) haz Em the hull heal will help but the resist stacks with ET resist, the science on the team should use dampening field for more resist, use brace for impact (grossly underused).
Or
full power to engines and emergency manuevers and run right at the escorts and by them since most escorts run cannons they will lose most of the fireppower they have.
For those that missed it you should read this again.
For those of you that are inexperienced or new to pvp you should read this several times.
It is textbook strategy on dealing with Target Subsystems: Shields.
It's what the 2 good PvP Fleets have been doing since day 1.
For those that missed it you should read this again.
For those of you that are inexperienced or new to pvp you should read this several times.
It is textbook strategy on dealing with Target Subsystems: Shields.
It's what the 2 good PvP Fleets have been doing since day 1.
So, according to this, you need a team to counter an ability 1 man can use on you. Does that seem a bit odd?
Seems odd to me.
Don't forget that parts of the "solo" counters have 3 minute cooldowns when the power has a 30 second cooldown. Furthermore there is no way to distinguish what is drained and what is disabled.
I am not saying that the power should be removed from the game. But 1 on 1.. .there should be some kind of counter that is AVAILABLE for a person to put on his bar. He may not have it.. then.. he is S.O.L.
But as it stands, the powers that are supposed to repair BTS powers do not. They are short term fixes.
This and stacking are ridiculous. One person can stack a BTTS 2 and 3 at the same time. That means 1 person can pretty much remove somebody's shields or whatever each and every time with no real counter in this 1 on one assault. That is just not acceptable.
If stacking was removed, it still could be used by a coordinated team
BTSS, BTSW, BTSE, BTSA,.. all stacked from different players on the same ship at the same time would be extremely effective. What is he going to do to you with all sytems running at around 5 lol.
Let's have some diversity in our game instead of the FOTM stack BTS powers until there is no way anybody can every use a system again.
Furthermore the BTS powers should reduce the power level by a fixed % instead of a number. That way it can be more manageable. There will still be a chance at system disabling, but not 100% of the time, the way it can be done now.
BTTS 1 = 30%
BTTS 2 = 45%
BTTS 3 = 60%
There... solid numbers with stacking done with diminishing returns for additional...like defenses.. if you want to stack.
Sorry, but 1 person's attacks should not need a team to counter it.
So, according to this, you need a team to counter an ability 1 man can use on you. Does that seem a bit odd?
Seems odd to me.
Don't forget that parts of the "solo" counters have 3 minute cooldowns when the power has a 30 second cooldown. Furthermore there is no way to distinguish what is drained and what is disabled.
I am not saying that the power should be removed from the game. But 1 on 1.. .there should be some kind of counter that is AVAILABLE for a person to put on his bar. He may not have it.. then.. he is S.O.L.
But as it stands, the powers that are supposed to repair BTS powers do not. They are short term fixes.
This and stacking are ridiculous. One person can stack a BTTS 2 and 3 at the same time. That means 1 person can pretty much remove somebody's shields or whatever each and every time with no real counter in this 1 on one assault. That is just not acceptable.
If stacking was removed, it still could be used by a coordinated team
BTSS, BTSW, BTSE, BTSA,.. all stacked from different players on the same ship at the same time would be extremely effective. What is he going to do to you with all sytems running at around 5 lol.
Let's have some diversity in our game instead of the FOTM stack BTS powers until there is no way anybody can every use a system again.
Furthermore the BTS powers should reduce the power level by a fixed % instead of a number. That way it can be more manageable. There will still be a chance at system disabling, but not 100% of the time, the way it can be done now.
BTTS 1 = 30%
BTTS 2 = 45%
BTTS 3 = 60%
There... solid numbers with stacking done with diminishing returns for additional...like defenses.. if you want to stack.
Sorry, but 1 person's attacks should not need a team to counter it.
Well I agree to most of that, however.
The numbers being a fixed drain?
A. Well the number is not only based on science skills, but consoles, and deflector stats as well. Add to that the only players capable of getting rank 1 are science vessels.
It would just be sheer sense to move all of them to science BoFF and make them un-stackable as it has been said. Not only that but it adds to the sensibility since all other power drain abilities are in the science pool anyway. In addition, I do not see any science abilities based on say training towards weapons, or tactical consoles, so it is clear logic even if it is or isn't "canon".
B. If NOT the other route to make sense of it all would be that perhaps science vessels should not get the rank 1 at all, and have it be an ensign tactical ability, and it should be based on tactical based skill training and consoles.
Yes, I can go even further:
If Tactical's specialization ship class, escorts, are designed predominantly to be majority cannon based weaponry, than really why not have cannon versions, if the above (A) suggestion was implemented, to replace those, having the cannon versions based on tier 1 and 2 weapon related training (Energy weapons => Cannons) as well as more or less the "red-headed step child" tactical consoles such as +to Cannons, bringing more use to those, and less to stacking energy damage type. Instead of draining a power type, which is science's forte, have it debuff a more simple and basic stat, like Accuracy, Crit Severity, or a more sophisticated stat like Sensor Array
Well I agree to most of that, however.
The numbers being a fixed drain?
That was just a "spitball" idea. I understand that skills and consoles add in. But I was just giving an example, of something that could work, if the dynamics are worked out,
But the way it stands, this is pretty much broken.
Yet at the same time, these premade groups keep wondering why the PvP population is dropping, while they are frustrating players out of PvP.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...:rolleyes:
Reminds me of an episode of the Honeymooners.... where Ralph is telling his wife Alice that he is the king and she is nothing... and he keeps saying it until he tells her to recite what he is.
That was just a "spitball" idea. I understand that skills and consoles add in. But I was just giving an example, of something that could work, if the dynamics are worked out,
But the way it stands, this is pretty much broken.
Yet at the same time, these premade groups keep wondering why the PvP population is dropping, while they are frustrating players out of PvP.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...:rolleyes:
Reminds me of an episode of the Honeymooners.... where Ralph is telling his wife Alice that he is the king and she is nothing... and he keeps saying it until he tells her to recite what he is.
She says..
"Your the king of nothing."
That is where they are headed.
Ohh, Okay. But do you see the point I was making about moving the abilities entirely?
As for the premade fleets, I have not come across a "good" or "skilled" fleet/premade that uses the BTS abilities. There is one I actually have a total of 8 minutes of video proof that they exploit BTS and knowingly doing it, so I wouldn't consider them good or skilled. If anything it takes more "skill" to succeed in a pug, because most of the time you don't know everyone on your team, and cannot rely on teamwork, or what tactics/outfit they have. Where as a premade, they practice, they use VoIP, and know exactly what everyone is going to do on their team, roles applied. It is as it is in real life. There is practice, and than there is talent.
Ohh, Okay. But do you see the point I was making about moving the abilities entirely?
Yeah, I definitely understand your point of view on that. Seems odd science has this on their ships and then it is not a science skill...
I agree that it takes a lot more to survive in a PUG. It takes a strong build with the strategy to know how to get into a situation and out of it, not knowing if help is coming.
It is a harder by far than having 4 people on voice ready to defend you. PUG builds are made to survive and thrive. Premade builds are like a series of sticks that are leaning on each other to form a structure. While together they make a strong shape,....take one out and the structure collapses.
I agree that it takes a lot more to survive in a PUG. It takes a strong build with the strategy to know how to get into a situation and out of it, not knowing if help is coming.
It is a harder by far than having 4 people on voice ready to defend you. PUG builds are made to survive and thrive. Premade builds are like a series of sticks that are leaning on each other to form a structure. While together they make a strong shape,....take one out and the structure collapses.
I hate having to agree with Jarus...;)
This is one of the few games that literally requires teamwork to be competitive. Both the PUG team and the Premade team can be beaten...it just takes the knowledge and strategy to do it, different builds/loadouts, and communication/teamwork. DOB has it. 182nd has it. Section 31 has it. Don't quite understand why everyone else can't seem to grasp the concept and instead cry for "nerfs."
Yup...although I hate putting out almost 500k damage and over 300k healing and losing! But with two new fleet recruits (one still in a science vessel) it was a lost cause from the beginning...lol. Excellent set of games though. Can't get much more even than splitting the first two with the same score and going 15-13 the last one. You need to get the fleet together more often for more Premades so we can get more decent matches...:D
Yup...although I hate putting out almost 500k damage and over 300k healing and losing! But with two new fleet recruits (one still in a science vessel) it was a lost cause from the beginning...lol. Excellent set of games though. Can't get much more even than splitting the first two with the same score and going 15-13 the last one. You need to get the fleet together more often for more Premades so we can get more decent matches...:D
Oh, that wasn't a premade. I joined with 1 guy and then the others just stuck in from a cracked planet random pug thingy. We then just queued up again.
I was just flying around spamming ES3, hazard emitters and ET3 to keep them going.
I have played a healer in most MMO's for the past.. well.. since Ultima Online... if that clues you in to my age.
I even was a primary healer pre BC in wow for the Molten core.... as a Shadow priest, because I proved to my guild that I could out heal the holy build guys they had, in shadow form.
I got into the guild because I made a bet with the guild leader that I could get them through Baron as their only healer..in shadow form.. never dropping out..and never letting them die.
Oh, that wasn't a premade. I joined with 1 guy and then the others just stuck in from a cracked planet random pug thingy. We then just queued up again.
I was just flying around spamming ES3, hazard emitters and ET3 to keep them going.
I have played a healer in most MMO's for the past.. well.. since Ultima Online... if that clues you in to my age.
I even was a primary healer pre BC in wow for the Molten core.... as a Shadow priest, because I proved to my guild that I could out heal the holy build guys they had, in shadow form.
I got into the guild because I made a bet with the guild leader that I could get them through Baron as their only healer..in shadow form.. never dropping out..and never letting them die.
I did it.
Good times.
Being a healer is an essential part of a good team in every game that has a character-class structure. Having two or three good ones on a team makes them substantively better. Good team heals > focus fire/individual skill/so-called exploits/etc. If you're keeping your team up you're doing something right.
PS...Then we share vaguely similar birthdates, even if my maturity level doesn't represent it.
The TS(X) skills need to be fixed not nerfed. They shouldn't stack to the point that if the counters are on cooldown your SOL, or if your counters are not enough you are SOL. I know ET does nothing to a draining subsystem. Batteries work for a little bit, EPt(X) works but then what are you going to heal team mates with if you have to stack 3 copies just to make sure you get un TS(x). It should be a one time skill and if a another player is dumb enough to use it on a ship with it already too bad. But something has to be done when I am running 125 to shields and they are off line and a battery, EPtS, and power cycling still gets me killed.
My ONLY problem with Target Subsystem (x) is that there is no dimishing returns for it (As far as I know, making the hatted assumption here) when hit by different users of the power.
For example: Say Escort A uses TSS III for -70, then Cruiser B uses TSS II for -30, your down -100 right there for the duration. And then if Science Ships A-C ALSO use TSS, it's even more.
Sure it fades as each duration of each layer drops off, and yes you can "counter" it, but like it has been stated, those counters don't usually out last repeated shots from Multiple or Focused uses of Target Subsystem (x). Now of course this is assuming that your on a Pug either in a Space Arena Cracked Planet 5v5 Type and not a much larger Capture and Hold. Because of course the more players involved the harder it really is to stay alive in focused attacks. Not to mention this also doesn't state how it works in more Organized "premade/FoTM" PVP. (Note: Not trying to use Premade or FoTM in a degratority way towards Organized PVP, just using it incase some people use those terms to explain Organized PVP)
So I don't totally feel that Target subsystem (x) needs a "nerf" but a tweek in how mutiple opponents are stacked.
(Side note: It's a little funny how I really didn't start to see this happen till almost imeaditely after the 1.1 Patch. Yay changes...:rolleyes:)
The simple and right answer, in my opinion, is to make it so the target subsystem attacks of the same type do not stack at all, and only the highest drain is applied. So TSS 3 would overwrite TSS 1 or 2 in most cases, not stack with them. But you could have TSS 3, TSE3, TSW3, and TSA3 all on the same target if you were that coordinated.
This would mean they either have to lose that system with a high enough drain, or switch power to that system to make it work which means they are losing power elsewhere. No one should lose a system for the entire duration if they route power to it, especially if they add in an EPtX.
The simple and right answer, in my opinion, is to make it so the target subsystem attacks of the same type do not stack at all, and only the highest drain is applied. So TSS 3 would overwrite TSS 1 or 2 in most cases, not stack with them. But you could have TSS 3, TSE3, TSW3, and TSA3 all on the same target if you were that coordinated.
This would mean they either have to lose that system with a high enough drain, or switch power to that system to make it work which means they are losing power elsewhere. No one should lose a system for the entire duration if they route power to it, especially if they add in an EPtX.
AMEN!
I also use and being abused by these skill, as long as there is no stack you have enough countermeaures agains it.
With removing the stacking(or capping it at 125) and making the drain/disable scalable depending on the weapon (or AUX !!) energy levels (to prevent full impulse = full drain capability) you would probably "fix" the ability and make it much more interesting option and supplemental ability.
i would not call TSS-X overpowered, but i most definatly have an issue with the move after i thougt things throug. people like akumarev stated their are counters to the move, even when stacked. altough technicly he is correct, he fails to mention that in countering the move u already lost. bear with me for a moment:
eg 1vs1 escort:
one with TSS one without. TSS gets fired and power is being drained. now lets say TSSSIII was used and now escort B is down 70 shield power. for most escorts i would think this will drop the shields. to counter this move escort B has to take power out of weapons and put them into shields, thus decreasing his weapon power. he doesnt need to do this right away but eventualy he will have to.
escort A can stay at full weapons power. the inbalance is now already taking into effect. add the fact that you will have to micro very much to keep you shield power up (using your EPtS, EPS (if u got that, or any other moves), redistributing power allocation, u are likely going to get out maneuvred as well this means that yet another inballance comes as a direct result from using this weapon. and it is these two that making the counters to TSS-X not realy viable, sure they work but will u be able to win the encounter or even survive it? i think not.
ofcoure i conveniently disregarded the use of any other BO powers in this little equation. but i think i did make some valid point.
when push comes to shove and when i think about it the only prob i realy see is the III version and the stacking. the way i see it you have 100 points of power to allocate. when TSS III is used u lose 70 power wich leaves u with only 30 left to allocate. i feel that a max drain of 50 should be max (for one power) so it would be much more difficult to completly dissable a ship but it could still be done with 4 times TSS for each power. that said TSSS would not be an effective counter to RSP and then you would have to look at that again.
ahhhh breing balance is a hard job, just let chaos reign supreme
I don't see any problem with TS: Engines or Shields or Aux (yes in PVP some guy was shooting me with TS:Aux, don't ask me why, it happened, and I spilt coffee on my lap..skin issues atm, but thats besides the point).
I can remember multiple episodes where I've heard Kirk, Picard, Janeway or Sisko say:
"More power to.."
"Divert emergency power to..."
"Divert Auxillary power to..."
"Shut down all systems except minimal power to lifesupport..."
"Target their engines.."
"Target their weapons.."
People demand dynamic power levels for their ship, but if anything external or hostile changes those power levels, then people cry bloody murder.
So here's my suggestion. If in the films and series power can be diverted from one system to any other system, then the same should be available ingame. There should no longer be a +25 imposed minimum to any power system. That way if you are unfortunate enough to get targtetted by both TS:Shields + Engines (or Aux lol), you have an additional +50 power to distribute along with anything else you can muster.
Shield, Aux and Engine Batteries (not Weapon) should have the capacity to push your power levels above 125 every time they are used in order to counter multiple stacked versions of any TS:X.
If all of these countermeasures fail, and you are focus fired by 3+ ships all stacking this effect, why do you think you should have any chance of survival without the assistance of team mates? Even the Think Tank in the Voyager episode with a solid neutronium hull, could not surive an attack by the Hazari, you honestly think you should?
Just my 2 pennies, since in the UK we don't have cents.
oh, i wasnt crying murder. i did say i didnt think its op (TSSIII is prety hard to come by so not used that often) but i do have an issue with how exessive the impact is to an opponent. bare in mind that my example was a 1vs1 situation. when u take multiple ships with this ability and using them to their full extent with proper coordination (and i have nothing against that what so ever) their is very little you can do about that.
i realy dont think people should be able to survive barrages from 3 ships at once, not at all. but i would expect a ship to stand a fighting chance to go down with honour.
all im saying is that the current way is a little bit to much of the good stuff, a kind tweak is in order. but that can be said of everything. i like pvp alot atm but i feel it can often go to fast and thats because of certain things. specialy escort things.
ps i play a tac escort myself and doing prety well most of the time, all cannons so i dont use TSS-X for personal reasons. just to ad, im not on the NERF TSS TO HELL team.
Put me in the camp with those who don't feel the individual abilities are overpowered, but there are some issues with 'beam target subsystem' stacking that could be examined. There are a few things that could be looked at without reducing the power of the skill but contributing towards balancing the skill relative to its cool down and impact on combat:
The effect can last greater than 15 seconds but the cooldown is only 30 seconds. This is a significant issue for stacking the skill. It can be observed that no other offensive debuff in the game has as long a duration of impact relative to cool down. This might explain why the skill is seen as being unbalanced.
Currently two BTSS III will stack -90 shield power x2 for -180 shield power to a single target. Perhaps it should stack the duration period of power drain rather than the total power drained? The reason why I find this might be more favorable is because it adds value to the other 'Beam Target Subsystem' skills - because no BTS skill will actually remove all the power from a single subsystem set to full 100 power - but it will allow the teams to stack -90 weapon power on an escort for long durations - for example.
Stacking with other skills - power drain, Polaron Proc, Power Siphons, etc - would still allow shield power to drop below 0.
With all that said, I do like that there is a way other than SNB to take down a ship spamming RSP - and beam Target Subsystem Shields can be used by any class. In the greater context of balance, these various issues are tied together.
Comments
1.) Reroute Powerlevels
2.) emergency power to (X) System...
3.) Batterys
4.) EPS Power transfer
there! counters
I dont want them to nerf TSS myself i just want a proper counter measure for stacked drains. Batteries only last 6 seconds... and have a 3 min global cooldown...
Plus you can never tell if a system was drained or knocked offline... it would be nice if it was more clear.
Those arn't countermeasures, just temporarly assistance.
Just find it funny that this has no real cure, considering what was done to Viral Matrix. :rolleyes:
Indeed. I killed the guy 2 times while TSE was on me. He didn't get me until he got help on the third spawn run, plus my RSPs were all in cooldown. But the whole time that debuff was on me. So I thought, "What inconvience that I can't fix it."
B. If you are using said counters and it isn't removing the affect, than the player using it on you, was exploiting. In which case, report him and take any evidence you can.
C. All the Target sub abilities combined are not as overpowered as SNB. Which, by the way has no counter. Only buff strip in a buff based game, without even a moderate cooldown.
For those that missed it you should read this again.
For those of you that are inexperienced or new to pvp you should read this several times.
It is textbook strategy on dealing with Target Subsystems: Shields.
It's what the 2 good PvP Fleets have been doing since day 1.
Pretty sure Emergency Power to Subsystem is designed specifically to act as a countermeasure to subsystems being drained.
That's how Snix made it sound in the thread about the Viral Matrix changes. Those powers are supposed to work on the new VM just as well.
So, according to this, you need a team to counter an ability 1 man can use on you. Does that seem a bit odd?
Seems odd to me.
Don't forget that parts of the "solo" counters have 3 minute cooldowns when the power has a 30 second cooldown. Furthermore there is no way to distinguish what is drained and what is disabled.
I am not saying that the power should be removed from the game. But 1 on 1.. .there should be some kind of counter that is AVAILABLE for a person to put on his bar. He may not have it.. then.. he is S.O.L.
But as it stands, the powers that are supposed to repair BTS powers do not. They are short term fixes.
This and stacking are ridiculous. One person can stack a BTTS 2 and 3 at the same time. That means 1 person can pretty much remove somebody's shields or whatever each and every time with no real counter in this 1 on one assault. That is just not acceptable.
If stacking was removed, it still could be used by a coordinated team
BTSS, BTSW, BTSE, BTSA,.. all stacked from different players on the same ship at the same time would be extremely effective. What is he going to do to you with all sytems running at around 5 lol.
Let's have some diversity in our game instead of the FOTM stack BTS powers until there is no way anybody can every use a system again.
Furthermore the BTS powers should reduce the power level by a fixed % instead of a number. That way it can be more manageable. There will still be a chance at system disabling, but not 100% of the time, the way it can be done now.
BTTS 1 = 30%
BTTS 2 = 45%
BTTS 3 = 60%
There... solid numbers with stacking done with diminishing returns for additional...like defenses.. if you want to stack.
Sorry, but 1 person's attacks should not need a team to counter it.
Well I agree to most of that, however.
The numbers being a fixed drain?
A. Well the number is not only based on science skills, but consoles, and deflector stats as well. Add to that the only players capable of getting rank 1 are science vessels.
It would just be sheer sense to move all of them to science BoFF and make them un-stackable as it has been said. Not only that but it adds to the sensibility since all other power drain abilities are in the science pool anyway. In addition, I do not see any science abilities based on say training towards weapons, or tactical consoles, so it is clear logic even if it is or isn't "canon".
B. If NOT the other route to make sense of it all would be that perhaps science vessels should not get the rank 1 at all, and have it be an ensign tactical ability, and it should be based on tactical based skill training and consoles.
Yes, I can go even further:
If Tactical's specialization ship class, escorts, are designed predominantly to be majority cannon based weaponry, than really why not have cannon versions, if the above (A) suggestion was implemented, to replace those, having the cannon versions based on tier 1 and 2 weapon related training (Energy weapons => Cannons) as well as more or less the "red-headed step child" tactical consoles such as +to Cannons, bringing more use to those, and less to stacking energy damage type. Instead of draining a power type, which is science's forte, have it debuff a more simple and basic stat, like Accuracy, Crit Severity, or a more sophisticated stat like Sensor Array
That was just a "spitball" idea. I understand that skills and consoles add in. But I was just giving an example, of something that could work, if the dynamics are worked out,
But the way it stands, this is pretty much broken.
Yet at the same time, these premade groups keep wondering why the PvP population is dropping, while they are frustrating players out of PvP.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...:rolleyes:
Reminds me of an episode of the Honeymooners.... where Ralph is telling his wife Alice that he is the king and she is nothing... and he keeps saying it until he tells her to recite what he is.
She says..
"Your the king of nothing."
That is where they are headed.
Ohh, Okay. But do you see the point I was making about moving the abilities entirely?
As for the premade fleets, I have not come across a "good" or "skilled" fleet/premade that uses the BTS abilities. There is one I actually have a total of 8 minutes of video proof that they exploit BTS and knowingly doing it, so I wouldn't consider them good or skilled. If anything it takes more "skill" to succeed in a pug, because most of the time you don't know everyone on your team, and cannot rely on teamwork, or what tactics/outfit they have. Where as a premade, they practice, they use VoIP, and know exactly what everyone is going to do on their team, roles applied. It is as it is in real life. There is practice, and than there is talent.
Yeah, I definitely understand your point of view on that. Seems odd science has this on their ships and then it is not a science skill...
I agree that it takes a lot more to survive in a PUG. It takes a strong build with the strategy to know how to get into a situation and out of it, not knowing if help is coming.
It is a harder by far than having 4 people on voice ready to defend you. PUG builds are made to survive and thrive. Premade builds are like a series of sticks that are leaning on each other to form a structure. While together they make a strong shape,....take one out and the structure collapses.
I hate having to agree with Jarus...;)
This is one of the few games that literally requires teamwork to be competitive. Both the PUG team and the Premade team can be beaten...it just takes the knowledge and strategy to do it, different builds/loadouts, and communication/teamwork. DOB has it. 182nd has it. Section 31 has it. Don't quite understand why everyone else can't seem to grasp the concept and instead cry for "nerfs."
I will try to do better in the Future.
here.. let me get it started
NERF EVERTHING... RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWR
p.s. Good fight the other night, Bounty.
Yup...although I hate putting out almost 500k damage and over 300k healing and losing! But with two new fleet recruits (one still in a science vessel) it was a lost cause from the beginning...lol. Excellent set of games though. Can't get much more even than splitting the first two with the same score and going 15-13 the last one. You need to get the fleet together more often for more Premades so we can get more decent matches...:D
Oh, that wasn't a premade. I joined with 1 guy and then the others just stuck in from a cracked planet random pug thingy. We then just queued up again.
I was just flying around spamming ES3, hazard emitters and ET3 to keep them going.
I have played a healer in most MMO's for the past.. well.. since Ultima Online... if that clues you in to my age.
I even was a primary healer pre BC in wow for the Molten core.... as a Shadow priest, because I proved to my guild that I could out heal the holy build guys they had, in shadow form.
I got into the guild because I made a bet with the guild leader that I could get them through Baron as their only healer..in shadow form.. never dropping out..and never letting them die.
I did it.
Good times.
Being a healer is an essential part of a good team in every game that has a character-class structure. Having two or three good ones on a team makes them substantively better. Good team heals > focus fire/individual skill/so-called exploits/etc. If you're keeping your team up you're doing something right.
PS...Then we share vaguely similar birthdates, even if my maturity level doesn't represent it.
You DO NOT need a team to counter TSS from ONE player.
You DO Need a team to counter it from MULTIPLE players.
You do if they stack it the way I said. And they can keep it up forever. And you know it can be done.
For example: Say Escort A uses TSS III for -70, then Cruiser B uses TSS II for -30, your down -100 right there for the duration. And then if Science Ships A-C ALSO use TSS, it's even more.
Sure it fades as each duration of each layer drops off, and yes you can "counter" it, but like it has been stated, those counters don't usually out last repeated shots from Multiple or Focused uses of Target Subsystem (x). Now of course this is assuming that your on a Pug either in a Space Arena Cracked Planet 5v5 Type and not a much larger Capture and Hold. Because of course the more players involved the harder it really is to stay alive in focused attacks. Not to mention this also doesn't state how it works in more Organized "premade/FoTM" PVP. (Note: Not trying to use Premade or FoTM in a degratority way towards Organized PVP, just using it incase some people use those terms to explain Organized PVP)
So I don't totally feel that Target subsystem (x) needs a "nerf" but a tweek in how mutiple opponents are stacked.
(Side note: It's a little funny how I really didn't start to see this happen till almost imeaditely after the 1.1 Patch. Yay changes...:rolleyes:)
This would mean they either have to lose that system with a high enough drain, or switch power to that system to make it work which means they are losing power elsewhere. No one should lose a system for the entire duration if they route power to it, especially if they add in an EPtX.
AMEN!
I also use and being abused by these skill, as long as there is no stack you have enough countermeaures agains it.
THIS.
And that sums the thread really pluss i would like to see the stacking of BTSS removed.
*yawn*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TuLBa-rgBk&feature=related
*yawn*
eg 1vs1 escort:
one with TSS one without. TSS gets fired and power is being drained. now lets say TSSSIII was used and now escort B is down 70 shield power. for most escorts i would think this will drop the shields. to counter this move escort B has to take power out of weapons and put them into shields, thus decreasing his weapon power. he doesnt need to do this right away but eventualy he will have to.
escort A can stay at full weapons power. the inbalance is now already taking into effect. add the fact that you will have to micro very much to keep you shield power up (using your EPtS, EPS (if u got that, or any other moves), redistributing power allocation, u are likely going to get out maneuvred as well this means that yet another inballance comes as a direct result from using this weapon. and it is these two that making the counters to TSS-X not realy viable, sure they work but will u be able to win the encounter or even survive it? i think not.
ofcoure i conveniently disregarded the use of any other BO powers in this little equation. but i think i did make some valid point.
when push comes to shove and when i think about it the only prob i realy see is the III version and the stacking. the way i see it you have 100 points of power to allocate. when TSS III is used u lose 70 power wich leaves u with only 30 left to allocate. i feel that a max drain of 50 should be max (for one power) so it would be much more difficult to completly dissable a ship but it could still be done with 4 times TSS for each power. that said TSSS would not be an effective counter to RSP and then you would have to look at that again.
ahhhh breing balance is a hard job, just let chaos reign supreme
I can remember multiple episodes where I've heard Kirk, Picard, Janeway or Sisko say:
"More power to.."
"Divert emergency power to..."
"Divert Auxillary power to..."
"Shut down all systems except minimal power to lifesupport..."
"Target their engines.."
"Target their weapons.."
People demand dynamic power levels for their ship, but if anything external or hostile changes those power levels, then people cry bloody murder.
So here's my suggestion. If in the films and series power can be diverted from one system to any other system, then the same should be available ingame. There should no longer be a +25 imposed minimum to any power system. That way if you are unfortunate enough to get targtetted by both TS:Shields + Engines (or Aux lol), you have an additional +50 power to distribute along with anything else you can muster.
Shield, Aux and Engine Batteries (not Weapon) should have the capacity to push your power levels above 125 every time they are used in order to counter multiple stacked versions of any TS:X.
If all of these countermeasures fail, and you are focus fired by 3+ ships all stacking this effect, why do you think you should have any chance of survival without the assistance of team mates? Even the Think Tank in the Voyager episode with a solid neutronium hull, could not surive an attack by the Hazari, you honestly think you should?
Just my 2 pennies, since in the UK we don't have cents.
i realy dont think people should be able to survive barrages from 3 ships at once, not at all. but i would expect a ship to stand a fighting chance to go down with honour.
all im saying is that the current way is a little bit to much of the good stuff, a kind tweak is in order. but that can be said of everything. i like pvp alot atm but i feel it can often go to fast and thats because of certain things. specialy escort things.
ps i play a tac escort myself and doing prety well most of the time, all cannons so i dont use TSS-X for personal reasons. just to ad, im not on the NERF TSS TO HELL team.
The effect can last greater than 15 seconds but the cooldown is only 30 seconds. This is a significant issue for stacking the skill. It can be observed that no other offensive debuff in the game has as long a duration of impact relative to cool down. This might explain why the skill is seen as being unbalanced.
Currently two BTSS III will stack -90 shield power x2 for -180 shield power to a single target. Perhaps it should stack the duration period of power drain rather than the total power drained? The reason why I find this might be more favorable is because it adds value to the other 'Beam Target Subsystem' skills - because no BTS skill will actually remove all the power from a single subsystem set to full 100 power - but it will allow the teams to stack -90 weapon power on an escort for long durations - for example.
Stacking with other skills - power drain, Polaron Proc, Power Siphons, etc - would still allow shield power to drop below 0.
With all that said, I do like that there is a way other than SNB to take down a ship spamming RSP - and beam Target Subsystem Shields can be used by any class. In the greater context of balance, these various issues are tied together.