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SPACE-COMBAT with ELITE is TOO EASY (again)

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hi Guys,


what are your opinions about that observation??

Same Feelings or not ???


For those, who will argue: "Go PVP, strip your ship of all purple, fly with Runabouts, etc.etc", i will say the following:

The DIFFICULTY-SLIDER was implemented to give the HARDCORE-PLAYER-Faction some real Challenge in PVE !!! :D
But in the current state, i am feeling NOT challenged... only if you team up with 3 or 4 and fight against huge Groups and you are focused by them... or against Endstage-Cubes... but EVERYTHING is too EASY doable atm... :(

Especially in lower tiers when you are leveling an alt... :(


So whats your thoughts about that topic:

- harder ELITE-Setting in Space ?
- am i a complete fool ??
- adding a 4th Setting, maybe called "NIGHTMARE" or "Q" ???



And remember the topic: WE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SPACE-PART !!!!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I say add a seperate slider for space and ground difficulty and then add higher difficulties. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Well Max, as i already said in other threads to that topic: Make Space combat harder!

    But i am sure that this thread will also be ignored by cryptic and who can blame them? The large majority of the community does not care about a harder challenge, as you can tell by the other threads on this topic. My only hope is the difficulty slider for STFs, but other than a vague patchnote stating that the difficulty slider for STFs is for now turned off, we have no information on any plans regarding difficulty sliders and STFs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    MaxMagic wrote:
    Hi Guys,


    what are your opinions about that observation??

    Same Feelings or not ???


    For those, who will argue: "Go PVP, strip your ship of all purple, fly with Runabouts, etc.etc", i will say the following:

    The DIFFICULTY-SLIDER was implemented to give the HARDCORE-PLAYER-Faction some real Challenge in PVE !!! :D
    But in the current state, i am feeling NOT challenged... only if you team up with 3 or 4 and fight against huge Groups and you are focused by them... or against Endstage-Cubes... but EVERYTHING is too EASY doable atm... :(

    Especially in lower tiers when you are leveling an alt... :(


    So whats your thoughts about that topic:

    - harder ELITE-Setting in Space ?
    - am i a complete fool ??
    - adding a 4th Setting, maybe called "NIGHTMARE" or "Q" ???



    And remember the topic: WE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THE SPACE-PART !!!!

    have you tried playing in something other than an Escort? I specced from my escort which was doing Elite mode easily to a DSSV, and it's worthless even on Advanced. what a waste of 20k merits.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think your right, more customisation on the difficulty slider would be a nice addition. However havnt we spent enough time on this? Most people are now happy with one of the 3 selections and spending time to make an option available to every single individual is gonna take up time thats planned to be spent on other things. People wanting DP on normal or an easy option fall into this catergory as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Not in the current form. The current difficulty levels change nothing except damage dealt and resists of the NPCs. Longer =/= harder. That's what all my Elite missions are, longer, not harder. Aside from one time when I jumped into the wrong mission while grouped with four others and didn't really try to survive the mauling from six ships (didn't use RSP, scramble sensors) I haven't had any real difficulty.

    A few times I've come close to seeing my ship explode because, again, I didn't use RSP and similar skills but other than that I've only found my Elite difficulty missions take longer due to the high resists and sometimes losing virtually all my weapons due to the wonderful beam overload bug. The challenge you're looking for won't be brought about from another difficulty level, all that will do is add more time to the tedious grinding. The challenge will come from improved AI and that isn't easy to implement compared to increasing resists and damage output. Which do you think would happen from another, harder difficulty setting? I know what my bet would be on...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Dyonas wrote: »
    Not in the current form. The current difficulty levels change nothing except damage dealt and resists of the NPCs. Longer =/= harder. That's what all my Elite missions are, longer, not harder. Aside from one time when I jumped into the wrong mission while grouped with four others and didn't really try to survive the mauling from six ships (didn't use RSP, scramble sensors) I haven't had any real difficulty.

    A few times I've come close to seeing my ship explode because, again, I didn't use RSP and similar skills but other than that I've only found my Elite difficulty missions take longer due to the high resists and sometimes losing virtually all my weapons due to the wonderful beam overload bug. The challenge you're looking for won't be brought about from another difficulty level, all that will do is add more time to the tedious grinding. The challenge will come from improved AI and that isn't easy to implement compared to increasing resists and damage output. Which do you think would happen from another, harder difficulty setting? I know what my bet would be on...

    I see enemies using more powers, more often. Hirogen ships, for example, seem to have shorter cooldown periods before using major abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Problem with Elite is that in Space it is so that you have a longer fight against the usual enemies and a real HARD fight against the "Boss"-Enemies.
    I think that is just right but i can see how someone might want a Nightmare mode if teamed up it is usually even easier.

    On ground every single NPC is that hard and the "Boss Enemies" are almost impossible to beat at times.
    I'm just saying "Klingon Sword Master" ... those guys get my TAC LT6 and my ENG RA5 down in 2 Shots... why do i even bother to wear Shields? My Generators and Turrets get destroyed faster then i can beam them down...


    I switched to Advanced only so that i can beat the ones on ground and Space is boring again now.


    Feels very unballanced but then Space and Ground are basically 2 diffrent games and while i might be good in space i might suck on ground... and well i think i do ^^ ...i mean i made a Support char for Fleetactions, not gonna change that now!

    So yes i would very much like seperate Difficulty Sliders... or just a better ballance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    No matter how hard Crytic make it, the players will learn how to do the encounters and so for them it will become easy. This is because NPCs don't learn.

    If you want a hard challenge that has defeated the best minds so far, tackle this problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You want it even harder? Don't use Torpedo high yield and/or cannon rapid fire. Find out what makes a real difference. Defensive abilities can also be too powerful. Maybe the Devs limit the use of certain abilities in a future update for the elite mode, when they get enough feedback from the community.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Seems fine to me currently.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The thing about "content being hard" is that it will never be "hard."

    Someone somewhere will find a way to min-max their spec in order to make the new mode pointless and you end up back at square one again.

    Space combat right now seems pretty on par for the difficulty slider. You're not fighting "Boss" MoB's in them and its not an STF or another mode that is supposed to have ships that hit harder so it really shouldn't carry the expectation to be a mini "Raid" for one person.

    What we need to wait for now is end-game content that gets released with the difficulty slider in mind during creation.

    This could mean more NPC's having different space abilities they use more often on top of he current settings.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think the current is fine as far as difficulty. I would however like to see more fights that require more then just using your given abilities but require thinking outside the box as in using a nebula nearby to confuse their sensors. Maybe strategically using asteroids to avoid their weapons fire. Stuff like that. For example like that one quest where you ignite the Metrion Gas with the Riker Maneuver.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Blenda wrote:
    No matter how hard Crytic make it, the players will learn how to do the encounters and so for them it will become easy. This is because NPCs don't learn.

    If you want a hard challenge that has defeated the best minds so far, tackle this problem.

    Exactly right. The human player will always have an advantage over a computer-driven character because the human player can learn how to adapt.

    And until someone creates a true AI this will likely remain the case.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I thought I had read in some description of the difficulty slider that elite AI will "use skills more effectively" or something to that effect. I don't know if that's true...I do know that on elite, an Undine cruiser will chain off Undine Torpedo at you, which will do about 25K if they land, plus plasma DoT. At that point, it doesn't really matter how "effectively" they use the skill or not. :p

    In all, I'd say it's good enough. The problem isn't so much elite as that some skills are still unbalanced (and I mean this both ways - some are a bit too powerful and several are practically useless). If this is addressed, I think elite combat would be a lot more interesting, instead of just using the same three or four skills over and over to whittle down your opponents.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Well, after doing some combat runs with the 'Advance' settig on. Yupe the fights are longer, ripping down the shields of an enemy's ship requires a different tactic.

    Mostly I discovered by increasing more power to weapons helps creating cracks their shields upon where pouring the heaviest amounts of firepower on the hull, but you have to be quick about it. Shield regenaration on thier part is a pain. :D

    In the last few fights on Advance setting had some close calls, shields down, hull nearly gone and that was by myself. Can't imagine what it is like in Fleet actions or PVP.:eek:

    The current scale of difficulty works, I don't know how much harder it should be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    TrueWarper wrote:
    Well, after doing some combat runs with the 'Advance' settig on. Yupe the fights are longer, ripping down the shields of an enemy's ship requires a different tactic.

    Mostly I discovered by increasing more power to weapons helps creating cracks their shields upon where pouring the heaviest amounts of firepower on the hull, but you have to be quick about it. Shield regenaration on thier part is a pain. :D

    In the last few fights on Advance setting had some close calls, shields down, hull nearly gone and that was by myself. Can't imagine what it is like in Fleet actions or PVP.:eek:

    The current scale of difficulty works, I don't know how much harder it should be.

    Difficulty slider does not effect fleet actions or pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    What we need is for the dp effects is to be caused IN battle not AFTER battle, and to have an active damage control screen more like Starfleet Command. Have the damage happen as a chance on critical hits, system degradation in battle makes sense as does having 'Scotty' fix it during the fight. I like a slower longer fight, it makes it feel like ships fighting, not fighters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Dyonas wrote: »
    Not in the current form. The current difficulty levels change nothing except damage dealt and resists of the NPCs. Longer =/= harder. That's what all my Elite missions are, longer, not harder. Aside from one time when I jumped into the wrong mission while grouped with four others and didn't really try to survive the mauling from six ships (didn't use RSP, scramble sensors) I haven't had any real difficulty.

    A few times I've come close to seeing my ship explode because, again, I didn't use RSP and similar skills but other than that I've only found my Elite difficulty missions take longer due to the high resists and sometimes losing virtually all my weapons due to the wonderful beam overload bug. The challenge you're looking for won't be brought about from another difficulty level, all that will do is add more time to the tedious grinding. The challenge will come from improved AI and that isn't easy to implement compared to increasing resists and damage output. Which do you think would happen from another, harder difficulty setting? I know what my bet would be on...


    Agreeing to you to 100 % :)

    I would also like to see a better AI and actually, you are completly right:
    the fights lasts longer, but not real harder... :o
    Okay, its a step in the right direction to give the NPCs much better Shields and Hulls through better Resistances and also some more firepower... but except of using HYT3, they dont have anything dangerous !!

    I would like to see:
    - even more Firepower
    - more using of repairing/healing skills
    - more chainusing skills like VM followed by HYT3
    - better steering and maneuvering (i.e. Escorts trying to catch you on your rear)


    I dont know, who of you played Closed Beta at this long last weekend ??

    Cryptic implemented for this weekend a new patch with a heavily incresed difficulty (...and much people complained about it ;))... i dont know, whether ELITE is the same as this setting...

    But it seems to me, that this setting was much harder than the actual ELITE... if THIS would be the case, i wishing back this setting :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My thoughts are ...

    This could end up being an ongoing process. A lot more fine tuning is needed. And so it may take a few patches or even a few dozen patches to get in and fine tune specific aspects of the difficulty slider properly.

    So we might be in for a wait.

    So ... my suggestion on what to try while waiting ... is ...

    To consider trying to do some of these missions with a self-imposed handicap.

    We have, in space, two ways of achieving this.

    1- Using a lower quality and/or lower tiered weapon. (As well as consoles). There is a lot of room for control here. You can go from Mk I all the way to Mk X. From Common to Rare. This let's you fine tune your side of the equation very well.

    2- Using a lower tier of ship. This has a huge impact since it changes the amount of slots you have for weapons and consoles, as well as changes the availability of BO powers you have.

    I think, if the desire is to really up the challenge you face ... since it may take the devs some time to adequately address the issues ... that one way we can be proactive about it is to tinker with our side of the fight and reduce what we can do until we have the fight at just the right level of challenge that is comfortable for us.

    Just a suggestion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i try elite while leveling, i don't have any end game characters as of yet but what i find is elite is adiquetly hard... it's not "easy" easy but it's not "omfg wtf" kind of hard either, just takes some caution, like attacking only 1 target at a time instead of attacking 3-5 like i would in normal mode, and keeping a closer eye on my sheilds/health, and stopping to rest a little bit between kills.

    it's like this "easy mode - fly in, shoot up everything and only worry about health when i have maybe 10% health left, and keep on going from ship to ship non-stop till the mission is done.

    elite - pick targets and go for the easyer kill, like bops, or runabouts. attempt to avoid cruisers, and DEFINATELY avoid taking on more then 1 group at a time. also hitting sheild recharge skills as soon as if not before my shields go down, and stopping after each kill to get a quick breath and pick my next target.


    i explain all this because, how you play in any mode is a big part of how easy/difficult that setting is, if you play defensively in easy/elite mode, you won't see much of a difference, if any, in the difficulty, where as if you play more, offencsively (charging in with all guns blazing) you'll see a very big difference
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I like Elite but I have adjusted to it and now it seems easy. I really only find the boss ships challenging and that is more of a "grind them down" kind of fight. I still think it is more fun overall. I feel like I am fighting other ships with crews that want to live rather than exploding them at will. Now the 100 person crew dies in 5-8 seconds instead of 2-4 seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It appears to me that some people are only happy if they die all the time. Just my opinion. I think Elite is just fine in space combat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    CapnBludd wrote: »
    What we need is for the dp effects is to be caused IN battle not AFTER battle, and to have an active damage control screen more like Starfleet Command. Have the damage happen as a chance on critical hits, system degradation in battle makes sense as does having 'Scotty' fix it during the fight. I like a slower longer fight, it makes it feel like ships fighting, not fighters.


    GREAT IDEA :)


    This would make Battles much more interesting and challenging, if some "real" subsystem-damage would happen (as it was promised in the design process :cool:), which had to be repaired by the crew... Cruisers would take profit from their larger crews for example in such a case.


    Btw: STARFLEET COMMAND should had been almost the best reference for tactical Space Combat and i had wished, Cryptic had took a sharper look on this ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    My thoughts are ...

    This could end up being an ongoing process. A lot more fine tuning is needed. And so it may take a few patches or even a few dozen patches to get in and fine tune specific aspects of the difficulty slider properly.

    So we might be in for a wait.

    So ... my suggestion on what to try while waiting ... is ...

    To consider trying to do some of these missions with a self-imposed handicap.

    We have, in space, two ways of achieving this.

    1- Using a lower quality and/or lower tiered weapon. (As well as consoles). There is a lot of room for control here. You can go from Mk I all the way to Mk X. From Common to Rare. This let's you fine tune your side of the equation very well.

    2- Using a lower tier of ship. This has a huge impact since it changes the amount of slots you have for weapons and consoles, as well as changes the availability of BO powers you have.

    I think, if the desire is to really up the challenge you face ... since it may take the devs some time to adequately address the issues ... that one way we can be proactive about it is to tinker with our side of the fight and reduce what we can do until we have the fight at just the right level of challenge that is comfortable for us.

    Just a suggestion.


    Yep... agreeing to you that someone COULD do so ... but doing so, would negate all the ideas to maximize his char in an MMO :cool:


    But there is another way and it was widely used BEFORE the slider came out:

    Group up with 1,2 or 3 Guys on same map and fly the mission alone... but again, some people (like me) are wishing a difficulty setting that makes such "tricks" unnecessary :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    We have, in space, two ways of achieving this.

    1- Using a lower quality and/or lower tiered weapon. (As well as consoles). There is a lot of room for control here. You can go from Mk I all the way to Mk X. From Common to Rare. This let's you fine tune your side of the equation very well.

    2- Using a lower tier of ship. This has a huge impact since it changes the amount of slots you have for weapons and consoles, as well as changes the availability of BO powers you have.

    This does not work, try and shoot down a borg cube on elite with mk I gear. You will not be able to kill it but on the other hand he can not kill you either. Your suggestions only prolong the fight, but do not make it harder. That said, i already use a toon that is far from optimal skilled and equiped, but in the end it does nothing else than inrease the time needed to defeat the enemy.

    The comments about a better AI are right, but i think the current system can be adjustet to provide a higher difficulty. Cyptic should increase the damage of all normal attacks and decrease the damage of special attacks like THY. For example the fight against an escort of some minor race, all x seconds you need to prepare for THY and if ypu survive that, the rest of the fight is easy. So all x seconds you have something to do and the rest of the fight you shoot bored at the damn thing. If the normal attacks would also provide a threat you would have to think about what to do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kelteel wrote: »
    This does not work, try and shoot down a borg cube on elite with mk I gear. You will not be able to kill it but on the other hand he can not kill you either.

    Have you tried changing your shield to a mk 1 shield? a mk 1 regenerative shield?

    Have you tried swapping out some of your other consoles?

    Have you tried dropping your ship down to a Cheyenne class cruiser?

    The level of control you have to tweak what it is you are putting up against the enemy is really quite thorough and extensive.

    I bet you it would be much much easier for a Borg Cube to kill you in a Constitution class cruiser with MK 1 shields.

    Give it a try and let me know.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Thank you for the correction
    Pikoy wrote:
    Difficulty slider does not effect fleet actions or pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    While I agree that Elite at lower levels (LT) has been more of a grind than anything do to lack of rewards (which honestly don't exist in the game at LT levels) I think it is perfectly fine at the higher levels, especially RA. So, I would say leave it alone for space. If you're so super uber that you're still bored, well, congratulations to you on your skill level.

    There does need to be some tweaking on the ground side though.
    Originally Posted by CapnBludd
    What we need is for the dp effects is to be caused IN battle not AFTER battle, and to have an active damage control screen more like Starfleet Command. Have the damage happen as a chance on critical hits, system degradation in battle makes sense as does having 'Scotty' fix it during the fight. I like a slower longer fight, it makes it feel like ships fighting, not fighters.

    This is something I would also like to see in the future.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Lower Mk gear/consoles works.

    I'm lazy. Sometimes, I just want to fly around a Sirius block zapping Klingons. I was doing so in my Nova not too long ago with all Mk X gear and thought "You know what? This is unrealistic..."

    Went back, put a Mk I shield on, Mk IV phasers, mk II photons, and the appropriate lowbie consoles, and you know what?

    It got harder. Significantly.

    It works.

    I also did the same thing in a Miranda. All Mk IV or lower gear, RA5, warped into a Sirius block where I was the only one, mobs got scaled up to +0, and a single Bird of Prey killed me before I could even start to chip his shields away.

    The game has a lot of customization options that allow you to make it as hard or as easy as you want. Sometimes sticking Mk X gear on everything isn't the best way to have fun.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Having to self gimp bums me out.
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