Watching over the pvp channels for the past couple of weeks, it's become readily apparent how many people enjoy boasting how many TSS skills they and their BO's have. The discussion is constantly dominated by how to maximize TSS, how to obtain TSS and how to use TSS.
One rule of thumb for any MMO is once a skill, power, or ability becomes a "must have" in order to compete, the ability is overpowered and needs balancing.
I know its mostly a matter of opinion but Eng/Cruiser wise TSS doesnt seem to effect me that much if any but the TSE now thats a total bummer for me lol
Eh, I'm going to try not to get sucked into another BTSS discussion. I'm just going to restate (what I think are) two simple fixes that will make everyone happy:
1) Fix BTS so that only one copy of each rank can stack on a single target. This way, you effectively "cap" the max possible drain.
2) Employ an easy counter to BTS abilities. Make something like ET/ST clear drained systems, not just disabled ones.
There. A couple tweaks and you're good to go. If the devs do whip out the nerf stick, that just means one less viable escort build, in turn, limiting PvP even more.
Watching over the pvp channels for the past couple of weeks, it's become readily apparent how many people enjoy boasting how many TSS skills they and their BO's have. The discussion is constantly dominated by how to maximize TSS, how to obtain TSS and how to use TSS.
One rule of thumb for any MMO is once a skill, power, or ability becomes a "must have" in order to compete, the ability is overpowered and needs balancing.
Target Shields Subsystems has reached that point.
I'm with you Ronjon! NERF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING! Especially if people are talking about it!
TSS is worse than pre-nerf Viral Matrix. Get that TRIBBLE outta the game. Now. It's runing star trek for everyone.
Two TSS 3's can't take my shields out, and that's the only system that matters to me. Any 2-level one, can completely ignore. I think if 3+ people dedicate points, consoles and boff-slots into stopping you tying their team up for however long you can chain RSP or bang the evasive button for? Good for them. I enjoy trying to work my way out of a well-exectued attack, as much as I enjoy being in teams dishing them out.
"Fix BTS so that only one copy of each rank can stack on a single target"
So two cruisers aren't allowed to work together with the one rank they have available to them? Shame on you!
When I'm the vicitm of TSS, I find that switching to shields power focus and popping a shields battery and EPtS usually gets you at least back to a reasonable value. Also getting your team's engineers to zap you with the EPS abilitiy also helps to counter it. So there already are power level related counters in game. It's only an issue if the drain is more than 150 or so.
I can see though making it so that TSS on a target never exceeds -100 shields. I think that would be more than enough to alleviate the concerns of folks who dislike the Target Subsystem X powers. That way, if you run at 100 shields, you're at 0 now, and then you can just pop a shields battery and EPtS or EPS to get back your shields. That assumes it works the way I think it does now when we hit a guy with multiple TSS; we're putting more than 100 points of shield drain on the guy.
"Fix BTS so that only one copy of each rank can stack on a single target"
So two cruisers aren't allowed to work together with the one rank they have available to them? Shame on you!
Lol. I know I swore off posting about this topic, but hey, why not?
Anyway, just to clarify my point: if you stack BTS(S) ranks 1+2+3 on a single target - assuming you've buffed your BTS abilities with appropriate skills and "grandfathered" science consoles - you should hit for about -200 power drain, which is MORE than enough in almost any case that comes to mind.
1) Escorts can bring one BTS3 and one BTS2.
2) Science vessels can bring one BTS1 (innate) and one BTS2.
3) Cruisers can bring one BTS2.
If you eliminate same-rank BTS stacking, you can still hit for massive drain (-160 with a single escort), thereby encouraging focus-based teamwork and coordination to stack ranks 1, 2, and 3, if you're so inclined. Also, this increases the value of having a "balanced" team.
Again, just my opinion. Since I'm pretty sure BTS(S) has a big ol' "nerf bullseye" on it right now, I'm just proposing simple alternatives to an all-out nerf bash.
In fact when my shields get stripped its more of an annoyance to me then anything else. Cause i KNOW there are many counters to it.
Rerrouting my power to shields, using EPtS when i have that skill, using an shield battery, getting an EPS transfer from my team, Hull tanking with Eng Team, Hazard Emitters... There are severall ways to counter it. You just have to use them.
I use TSS3 and of course my goal is to strip someones shields, but my secondary goal is to make him use those counters, to switch his power levels which gives him back the shields, but also reduces his weapon power which means a significant loss in dps.
Using such skills is a tactical way to go into a situation to make your enemy do what you want him to do.
Of couse im pretty sure that thanks to people like you it will get nerfed some day like every other skill will be nerfed till we are at a point where the game is so simplified that we dont have any BO powers at all anymore and we just pew pew at the enemy without having to think anymore. Is this what we want? In a normal FPS game yes, in an mmo no. I have to say i want to use different powers, i want to constantly click buttons.
But ok lets assume it gets nerfed to a point where noone is using it anymore just like VM (which also had counters). Now we have an open skillslot in which we could put different things. Lets say a team which had 2 escorts, 2 cruisers, 1 science dropps all their BTS skills and get for example THY. So 2 THY3, 2 THY2 and a normal THY. Drop the shields the normal way and all fire their THY at the target.... i let yourself imagine which kind of damage this would inflict.
This was just one of the easiest examples. Could also still get Beam Target Engines where even unstacked a single III will drop an engines power to zero and leave a escort floating in space untill they switch their power levels.
Near all of the skills can be overpowered if you encounter them unprepared and without the will to find out HOW to counter them.
I have an intresting thought, tho im not using this myself but what if you get EP2S 2 instead of rsp, then tss and full shield power should bring you up.
Lol. I know I swore off posting about this topic, but hey, why not?
Anyway, just to clarify my point: if you stack BTS(S) ranks 1+2+3 on a single target - assuming you've buffed your BTS abilities with appropriate skills and "grandfathered" science consoles - you should hit for about -200 power drain, which is MORE than enough in almost any case that comes to mind.
.
This has me confused. What grandfathered science consoles affect BTXX skills? The BTXX powers are affected by tac skills Starship Energy Weapons Training and Starship Beam Weapons. I didn't think any science (ability or console )was involved in this power. Could you clarify this? My understanding was that the only way science is connected with this is from the science ship which has the innate BTXX powers level 1.
This has me confused. What grandfathered science consoles affect BTXX skills? The BTXX powers are affected by tac skills Starship Energy Weapons Training and Starship Beam Weapons. I didn't think any science (ability or console )was involved in this power. Could you clarify this? My understanding was that the only way science is connected with this is from the science ship which has the innate BTXX powers level 1.
This has me confused. What grandfathered science consoles affect BTXX skills? The BTXX powers are affected by tac skills Starship Energy Weapons Training and Starship Beam Weapons. I didn't think any science (ability or console )was involved in this power. Could you clarify this? My understanding was that the only way science is connected with this is from the science ship which has the innate BTXX powers level 1.
Multi-Spectro Scanner science consoles affect BTS abilities, as they rely on the Sensors and Sensor Array skills. The pre-Season One ("grandfathered") Mk X consoles give a +30 to Sensory Array, while the new ones only apply a +15 bonus.
I'm pretty ****ed they didn't change all Sci-consoles to the new values like they did with the EPS ones.
Also that they haven't even considered multiple stacking making the system out of whack! The QA folks at Cryptic seems very narrowminded.
I do wonder what their solution that they will bring to Tribble soon is?
If they nerf DPS to much then cruisers with their current stacking possibilities of RSP will rule supreme.
Multi-Spectro Scanner science consoles affect BTS abilities, as they rely on the Sensors and Sensor Array skills. The pre-Season One ("grandfathered") Mk X consoles give a +30 to Sensory Array, while the new ones only apply a +15 bonus.
Ah, I did find it. It doesn't mention sensors under the BTXX skill like you think it would in the powers tab. But under beam array, it goes down the list of abilities that have an effect on beam array. And there it mentions the BTXX skills and the ops sensors and sensor array. Thanks guys, I learned something.
The question I have now is what the difference would be between say a science officer who already skills those abilities and uses the mentioned consoles have on the amount drained vs a tac officer who might not be skilled in those and use different consoles. Does the skills increase drain or are they like most science skills and increase the duration?
The question I have now is what the difference would be between say a science officer who already skills those abilities and uses the mentioned consoles have on the amount drained vs a tac officer who might not be skilled in those and use different consoles. Does the skills increase drain or are they like most science skills and increase the duration?
Being skilled for BTS increases the amount drained. The duration is static.
But ok lets assume it gets nerfed to a point where noone is using it anymore just like VM (which also had counters). Now we have an open skillslot in which we could put different things.
Yeah, a bunch of us would end up going back to Attack Pattern Beta probably. So instead of just dropping your shields, now you'll end up with 3 or 4 resist debuffs on you, which I doubt is very happy making for the target as well. There's more counters available against TS:x abilities than there are against resist debuffs IMO.
TSS is only really a problem when it is triple stacked, or exploited.
Obviously there is an answer to people who exploit, and know they are doing it.
I agree there should only be 1 application of the type of drain allowed on a target. So you could say BTE and BTS, but not BTS and BTS. I would also recommend moving them all to science power pool, since they get the rank 1 innate, and their consoles effect the drain. Just give tactical something else like an accuracy debuff (possibly Cannon Target sub abilities based on tac consoles, and training Energy weapons+Cannons) That would even bring more of an interesting development as if you had them say based on Cannon consoles, it would bring more use to those consoles instead of everyone just stacking energy damage type.
The counters are there and work very well, if it is not exploited.
However all the BT subsystem abilities put together are only a speckle compared to SNB. That needs to be fixed first.
At least, BT subsystem abilities can be used by all captain types.
I got hit by the TSS stacking tonight, and fortunately was able to survive it a few times. But one thing is for sure TS isn't cured by Engineering Team like it supposed to be.
Seems Cryptic did not put any thought into these abilities in PvP when they were creating the game. And I'm really disappointed. The more and more I play STO, the more I'm convinced they know absolutely nothing about PvP.
TSS is a good ability that dosn't need drastic changes. It is a good tactical option, I would agree that it should only stack to a point. Most buffs have diminishing returns, I think it would make sense to make multiple TSS strikes weeker.
I think everyone who gets hit by the "TSS Running Escort" needs to remember that if its nerfed hard they will simply respec all those skill points into things that will either make them live longer or hit harder. And those DBB slots will get switched out for another Heavy Cannon. And those BO slots will end up with more attack patterns and Rapid fires. You get the point... its easy to make an uber dps boat, its fun to see some tactics being used. Its also fun to counter them.
Do you know what will happen if they nerf TSS, people will then start screaming for TSE to be nerfed because when your engine is taken off line and your just floating in space you will complain about how unfair that is.
Then if they nerf that then you will complain about TSW because you cant do much if your weapons are off line. Then you will have to nerf RSP because there will be no real counters to that and when everyone stacks RSPs people will complain.
What do you people want? a single stack of any TS power can be countered so one on one it is not OP and the fact is that a group will aways be more then powerful enough to drop single ships fast with or without TSS stacking.
Not sure if I'm having a durr moment or not. But does TSS stack with the same damage type? Cos I've seen Phaser : Target Shields 2 on something we're focusing down, and my Disruptor : TS 2, but unless I'm going senile in my old age I'm not seeing any repeats of the same damage type (unless it's a different level of TS)
Comments
1) Fix BTS so that only one copy of each rank can stack on a single target. This way, you effectively "cap" the max possible drain.
2) Employ an easy counter to BTS abilities. Make something like ET/ST clear drained systems, not just disabled ones.
There. A couple tweaks and you're good to go. If the devs do whip out the nerf stick, that just means one less viable escort build, in turn, limiting PvP even more.
That's the last I'll say on this topic. Out.
I'm with you Ronjon! NERF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING! Especially if people are talking about it!
TSS is worse than pre-nerf Viral Matrix. Get that TRIBBLE outta the game. Now. It's runing star trek for everyone.
"Fix BTS so that only one copy of each rank can stack on a single target"
So two cruisers aren't allowed to work together with the one rank they have available to them? Shame on you!
I can see though making it so that TSS on a target never exceeds -100 shields. I think that would be more than enough to alleviate the concerns of folks who dislike the Target Subsystem X powers. That way, if you run at 100 shields, you're at 0 now, and then you can just pop a shields battery and EPtS or EPS to get back your shields. That assumes it works the way I think it does now when we hit a guy with multiple TSS; we're putting more than 100 points of shield drain on the guy.
Lol. I know I swore off posting about this topic, but hey, why not?
Anyway, just to clarify my point: if you stack BTS(S) ranks 1+2+3 on a single target - assuming you've buffed your BTS abilities with appropriate skills and "grandfathered" science consoles - you should hit for about -200 power drain, which is MORE than enough in almost any case that comes to mind.
1) Escorts can bring one BTS3 and one BTS2.
2) Science vessels can bring one BTS1 (innate) and one BTS2.
3) Cruisers can bring one BTS2.
If you eliminate same-rank BTS stacking, you can still hit for massive drain (-160 with a single escort), thereby encouraging focus-based teamwork and coordination to stack ranks 1, 2, and 3, if you're so inclined. Also, this increases the value of having a "balanced" team.
Again, just my opinion. Since I'm pretty sure BTS(S) has a big ol' "nerf bullseye" on it right now, I'm just proposing simple alternatives to an all-out nerf bash.
In fact when my shields get stripped its more of an annoyance to me then anything else. Cause i KNOW there are many counters to it.
Rerrouting my power to shields, using EPtS when i have that skill, using an shield battery, getting an EPS transfer from my team, Hull tanking with Eng Team, Hazard Emitters... There are severall ways to counter it. You just have to use them.
I use TSS3 and of course my goal is to strip someones shields, but my secondary goal is to make him use those counters, to switch his power levels which gives him back the shields, but also reduces his weapon power which means a significant loss in dps.
Using such skills is a tactical way to go into a situation to make your enemy do what you want him to do.
Of couse im pretty sure that thanks to people like you it will get nerfed some day like every other skill will be nerfed till we are at a point where the game is so simplified that we dont have any BO powers at all anymore and we just pew pew at the enemy without having to think anymore. Is this what we want? In a normal FPS game yes, in an mmo no. I have to say i want to use different powers, i want to constantly click buttons.
But ok lets assume it gets nerfed to a point where noone is using it anymore just like VM (which also had counters). Now we have an open skillslot in which we could put different things. Lets say a team which had 2 escorts, 2 cruisers, 1 science dropps all their BTS skills and get for example THY. So 2 THY3, 2 THY2 and a normal THY. Drop the shields the normal way and all fire their THY at the target.... i let yourself imagine which kind of damage this would inflict.
This was just one of the easiest examples. Could also still get Beam Target Engines where even unstacked a single III will drop an engines power to zero and leave a escort floating in space untill they switch their power levels.
Near all of the skills can be overpowered if you encounter them unprepared and without the will to find out HOW to counter them.
Sensors affect towards BTSS.
Multi-Spectro Scanner science consoles affect BTS abilities, as they rely on the Sensors and Sensor Array skills. The pre-Season One ("grandfathered") Mk X consoles give a +30 to Sensory Array, while the new ones only apply a +15 bonus.
Also that they haven't even considered multiple stacking making the system out of whack! The QA folks at Cryptic seems very narrowminded.
I do wonder what their solution that they will bring to Tribble soon is?
If they nerf DPS to much then cruisers with their current stacking possibilities of RSP will rule supreme.
Ah, I did find it. It doesn't mention sensors under the BTXX skill like you think it would in the powers tab. But under beam array, it goes down the list of abilities that have an effect on beam array. And there it mentions the BTXX skills and the ops sensors and sensor array. Thanks guys, I learned something.
The question I have now is what the difference would be between say a science officer who already skills those abilities and uses the mentioned consoles have on the amount drained vs a tac officer who might not be skilled in those and use different consoles. Does the skills increase drain or are they like most science skills and increase the duration?
:rolleyes: not when you get a lawlstack on you.
not gonna comment on this thread though.
Being skilled for BTS increases the amount drained. The duration is static.
Yeah, a bunch of us would end up going back to Attack Pattern Beta probably. So instead of just dropping your shields, now you'll end up with 3 or 4 resist debuffs on you, which I doubt is very happy making for the target as well. There's more counters available against TS:x abilities than there are against resist debuffs IMO.
learn to play instead of crying for nerfs.
NO. ET and ST already clear other debuffs.
**TACTICAL TEAM** should be the one that clears a single DRAIN if they decide to change it.
Although TS is an inherent ability on a Sci ship it IS a Tactical BO ability.
Also unlink global cooldowns for the various "Team" abilities. They're separate groups of people for god's sake!
No this is something that would make healers even more powerful.
Obviously there is an answer to people who exploit, and know they are doing it.
I agree there should only be 1 application of the type of drain allowed on a target. So you could say BTE and BTS, but not BTS and BTS. I would also recommend moving them all to science power pool, since they get the rank 1 innate, and their consoles effect the drain. Just give tactical something else like an accuracy debuff (possibly Cannon Target sub abilities based on tac consoles, and training Energy weapons+Cannons) That would even bring more of an interesting development as if you had them say based on Cannon consoles, it would bring more use to those consoles instead of everyone just stacking energy damage type.
The counters are there and work very well, if it is not exploited.
However all the BT subsystem abilities put together are only a speckle compared to SNB. That needs to be fixed first.
At least, BT subsystem abilities can be used by all captain types.
Seems Cryptic did not put any thought into these abilities in PvP when they were creating the game. And I'm really disappointed. The more and more I play STO, the more I'm convinced they know absolutely nothing about PvP.
I think everyone who gets hit by the "TSS Running Escort" needs to remember that if its nerfed hard they will simply respec all those skill points into things that will either make them live longer or hit harder. And those DBB slots will get switched out for another Heavy Cannon. And those BO slots will end up with more attack patterns and Rapid fires. You get the point... its easy to make an uber dps boat, its fun to see some tactics being used. Its also fun to counter them.
Bwhaha, Good!
Then if they nerf that then you will complain about TSW because you cant do much if your weapons are off line. Then you will have to nerf RSP because there will be no real counters to that and when everyone stacks RSPs people will complain.
What do you people want? a single stack of any TS power can be countered so one on one it is not OP and the fact is that a group will aways be more then powerful enough to drop single ships fast with or without TSS stacking.
Clearly if they redefined how this skill worked it would cover the other versions such as engines, weapons and aux as well.
I was just throwing ideas on the table.
Tactical Team does make sense. That might actually give people a reason to use it. Good idea.
Anyone else noticing this?