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Target subsystems........ RAGE!!!!!

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited May 2010 in PvP Gameplay
OK I'm sure that title will give the wrong idea but this is really bugging me and I need to vent in a somewhat reasonable manner. I don't know why this started happening so much lately or what change prompted it to happen more than I've seen in the past but in any type of PvP now I'm seeing so many times that ships, specifically escorts, will be using Target Subsytems Shields 3. On its own it can be devastating enough when coupled with an alpha strike from an escort and taking down the facing shield but now some people have figured out that if they set themselves up properly that they can get the power drain to quite high levels.

A lot of people seem to be running around 50 - 70 power to shields and one hit with the skill has a good chance of completely pulling the shields system offline. The result is, in most cases, a very pretty explosion and a respawn button. I have no great problem with this even if I think it stinks in a lot of ways, most notably that I'm not sure how to counter it personally but that isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is that if two or more players do this to a single person there is nothing I can think of that will save them that they can do themselves. Teamwork *might* help to a degree with this but you can always get caught out or singled out and then you're screwed.

Stacking of the skill, why is this an option? I'm not sure but, and this will no doubt get some flak sent in my direction, I don't think it should stack. At worst the most powerful of the two should take hold but stacking is beyond what you can counter. I ran with 125 shields in PvP earlier against some pretty well organised fleet, forgot the name, but all it took was two blasts of the skill and my shields were virtually gone. Not due to damage, due to power drain. I had around 10 - 15 power left after hitting the engineering EPS transfer skill but that was then drained with energy siphon leaving me sans shields and exploding soon after.

Why do I have such a problem with the ability stacking? There's a hard cap for power of 125 and you can't go beyond that no matter what skills, consoles or magic you might have but you can be drained for far beyond that by a few players stacking this against you. Do I want the skill nerfed? Not especially no but given the way the changes happen in the game it seems the most likely outcome if the current Flavour of the Month builds aren't looked at carefully. A few options I've briefly considered are ...

1. Make the Target Subsystem X skills only apply once. If you have a -50 drain on you and another person throws -40 on you it doesn't stack meaning that you wasted your skill, solved by communicating - a radical idea I know. If the situation is reversed and you have -40 then someone throws -50 on you then the higher skill takes hold for the remainder of the lower drain's duration. Again, communication prevents skill powers wasted due to this. It isn't ideal, it's rough around the edges but it's a place to start.

2. Allow power levels to go beyond 125 if the player has skills, consoles, magic, that would allow it. You aren't punishing those smart enough to come up with the builds and work together but you're also not killing those that get singled out by multiple applications of the skill.

I know which I'd prefer but I'd be happy to take either. Long post over with...

*puts flameproof clothing on, oxygen tank and sits in a pool of water*
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    *Get the marshmallows out. Sits back and watches*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Lol. You certainly aren't the only one who's been annoyed by BTS stacking :D
    Dyonas wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to be running around 50 - 70 power to shields and one hit with the skill has a good chance of completely pulling the shields system offline.

    Sad but true. Since I have an escort that uses multiple copies of BTS *gasp* I know that the max drain (with skill points and consoles in the right places) of a single BTS3 hit is somewhere in the ballpark of -90 shields power with a 40% chance to drop a facing. A big punch, but nothing that can't be countered by switching to max shields, using EPtS, EPS, or by popping a shield battery.
    Dyonas wrote: »
    Stacking of the skill, why is this an option?

    Ah, now you've hit the nail on the head. BTS has a duration of 30 seconds, a single cooldown of 30 seconds, and a global cooldown on all beam abilities for 15 seconds. What does this mean? Well, I can pop BTS3, wait for the counter on my beam weapon to drop to around 15, blast someone with it, immediately pop my BTS2 (around -70 drain), and repeat. This results in potentially infinite chaining/stacking.
    Dyonas wrote: »
    Do I want the skill nerfed? Not especially no but given the way the changes happen in the game it seems the most likely outcome if the current Flavour of the Month builds aren't looked at carefully.

    I don't completely agree that it's a "flavor of the month" build. A ship rigged for BTS is completely viable, which I use largely to counter RSP stacking - you know, those cruisers who bring five copies of RSP that results in nearly complete invulnerability unless you hit them with SNB or BTS. BTS has become so popular because it's one of the only effective counters to RSP.

    That said, if you're going to nerf something, nerf BTS and RSP at the same time. I don't think there's any reason BTS drain shouldn't stack if used by two separate players on the same target (that's fair game), but I definitely think that BTS and RSP should have their cooldowns looked at a bit. That would solve both problems, in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The issue of RSP chaining is a fairly touchy one too. In the past I would rely on.... *hangs head in shame* four copies of it. Only when someone in PvP said how I was an RSP spammer did I realise my shame. Now I run with two copies and do my best to avoid using them unless absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary is when I have an escort coming at me and I haven't had a chance to throw aceton field on it, or if I have three other ships attacking me at once that aren't an escort. Other times I use other skills and some hull tanking. I generally have good survival skills and more often than not it takes one or more ships using ramming speed to finish me off where I would otherwise last until my next ability came back from cool down.

    The players that get RSP hated so much are those that, similar to your own admission with subsystem targetting, use it one after another in an almost permanent state. It's infuriating to me in PvP as well because you get a cruiser down to about 30% health, and as a cruiser pilot I know how long that can take, only to see the familiar green glow appear pumping their shields back up and then letting them heal. You repeat the process and then they pop another... Skills like RSP and Shield Killer 3 as I think of it wouldn't be needed if shields meant something but that's another discussion entirely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I have seen Target Subsystem abilities being stacked since Beta (specifically, by Murder Fleet as the first major 'discoverers'). And you are absolutely correct: against 3x stacked copies of a single subsystem drain, there is no defense.

    What many teams have been doing is stack it across their 5-player teams (probably with several copies per ship, and/or Photonic Officer), so there is very little downtime between 2+ stacks against a single target.

    This is not to say that this is necessarily an 'IWIN' button, because it still requires the target to remain in firing range. However, consider (from a 5-player team) 3x Target Shields + 2x Target Engines, with or without Tractor Beam.

    ===

    I completely agree that stacking of same-name buffs/debuffs on self or target should be capped. I have been saying this since Beta.

    I have also been thinking how much more enjoyable the game might be if we had less abilities to rely on. For example, if we were to remove both Target Shields and RSP (which is primarily why Target Shields is needed) from the game, would space combat be much more enjoyable?

    ===

    By the way, oxygen is the primary fuel for 'normal' fire. You might want to change your tank to carbon dioxide. :)

    ===

    EDIT: Technically speaking, in a completely min/max scenario, it is possible to counter 3x Target III (Tactical bridge officer ability, Cmd slot) with 5x EPS Power Transfer (Engineering player ability) + relevant battery and/or relevant Emergency Power to <subsystem> (Engineering bridge officer ability). It is literally impossible to counter 4x Target III, however.

    In other words, the 'IWIN' min/max team is probably 4x escort/raptor/BoP + 1x anything.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I'ts pretty crazy if 2 or more have it, I had my shields ripped off with 117 base power, eps transfer on and an emergency power to shields. still 0 power. I think they must have had some energy siphon or something too. But don't nerf it! Please science needs something that they can work with, they hav elost their consoles and the 3 top powers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I hear your complaint but really if it is only stacking 2 of them it is easy to counter, you must stagger out the counter skills.
    if all three are stacked it requires more counter like an energy drain and a EPS flow from a teammate but it can easily be done.

    At worse case senario, hull tank which is easily done when you have a team that knows how to heal others.
    the rage comes from frustration with lack of teamplay. We deal with good teams that use BTS all the time we counter it all the time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It's annoying, but not an IWIN button: it only affects shields, so hull resistance and maneuvering/running are still viable.
    I survived the other day for 6 whole seconds without shields in an escort, by which time I had gotten behind a rock!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In my opinion multiple levels (1,2,3) of the same skill should never be stackable or chainable.

    As for the superb abiltiy of targeting shields 3 being chaned with other abilities on escorts - plenty of counters exist and while it hurts (alot) to be the target, escorts only really have the two-things going for them - dammage and speed.
    Once they come under attack, they die very quickly most of the time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    *checks self*

    I feel remarkably unburnt... which is good, I'm glad it wasn't taken as bad as it might sound. The RAAGGGEEE was indeed down to a lack of a full team working together and it's painful to come up against it in PvP on your own. It was difficult to run from it last night because the people using it were also hitting weapons and engines. The only thing I could really do at that point was open the airlock and throw rocks at them and I was fresh out of rocks :(

    Hmm.. I'm having one of those things, you know, a headache with pictures and things......an idea? A lot of posts like mine are probably down to frustration where the perceived lack of a counter leads to frustration. I'll throw up another thread for it about skills and counters where I'll try to list skills by class and bridge officers that affect your target as well as counters. I've seen a few threads that have similar information but I don't think there's one that pulls the information into ont thread. Anyone willing to contribute, feel free.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    just wait until some of those so called pro players log on later.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    considering that akumarev didn't flame him; i'm damn surprised. :eek: especially considering that the counters have been talked about ad nauseam

    anyways. As Akumarev said, you need to get more power into your system than the drain exists for. one of the most commonly forgot about ways is simply to push up your shield power setting.

    two of the most useful skills that any player can get are ETPS and a shield battery, the EPTS doesn't have to be strong, an ensign level slot is normally enough. Additionally the shield battery will boost your shield power exponentially but only lasts 3-4 seconds, and then it drains.

    if you have an engineerng captain or a teammate that is an engineer get them to throw the EPS power transfer. if a team stacks tss1,2,3 against you then you need you team to help you survive. a 5v1 almost never ends well for that 1 person.


    and to matt, you can only stack tss of different levels. While the debuff shows up for different weapons that fire it, it will only drain up to the highest drain.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Counters might be talked about a lot but as you'll probably see by the other thread I just posted I don't know a lot of them and searching for them in posts isn't the easiest solution. With regards to the increasing shield power counter... that only works to a degree. I had 125 shield power with EPS Transfer and then my shields dropped. I have Emergency Power to Shields 1, and at the time I also had 3 available. EPtS 1 didn't bring my shields back and the shield battery I was about to use didn't get the chance to go off before I exploded. I know what you're saying though and it was pretty extreme circumstances that lead to me being in such a massive drain situation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    What I do not understand is why Tac had this skill and get to have a rank III,, meanwhile science get the rank 1 as an innate skill and that it.. They should make this innate skill for science to rank 3....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    There is a lot of issues with TSS in particular that I do not like. I'm not upset with the ability to disable one shield facing but to completely drain and disable someones shields every 30 seconds rubs me the wrong way. Honestly, I think it is complete cheese in its current form and I refuse to use it. Guys stack multiple RSP's all the time and it can be an annoyance but for the most part they are sacrificing something in order to have that many of them. I also believe that if any change to TSS will come about it will have to be pushed for from the Fed side. Many more Feds use it and the ability to get a TSS 3 on Klingon side is extremely rare so I think it really will be more of an issue in the FvF. I could be wrong but I get the feeling it is used a boatload in FvF?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    MajorFury wrote: »
    I could be wrong but I get the feeling it is used a boatload in FvF?

    depends on how good the feds are. It does get used alot, but they never bring rank 2 or 1 to stack it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    depends on how good the feds are. It does get used alot, but they never bring rank 2 or 1 to stack it.

    okey i admit it... im guilty of using BTS1.

    Im a complete support class... so i have extend shields 3, and im usually always seen following a escort, or an assault cruiser.

    I'll wait for whoever is in front to fire first, extend shields 3... use BTS1, and watch the escort TRIBBLE whatever was in front of it.

    :X

    i think its part of the game.

    And i think its funnier when u watch 4 ships attack a ship who has extended shields 3 on, and not even dent there shields.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    and to matt, you can only stack tss of different levels. While the debuff shows up for different weapons that fire it, it will only drain up to the highest drain.
    This is not true. The last time I had drains stacked on me, I was being drained for over 200 power. (I know this because I was stacking max power level preset + Emergency Power + EPS Power Transfer + battery in an attempt to counter.) This may have been due to a bug (i.e., not intended), but this is what I have experienced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    We will make a vid sometime to show how to counter this but here is a simple explanation
    this is without EPS flow consoles- using those makes things easier as well.
    BTS targets you (doesn't matter what level) use EPTS while your power levels are still high.
    look at the debuffs on you, if it is only one BTS debuff you will be fine with a simple counter but you must let the effect run its course.
    BTS stacked you must use EPTS use energy siphon or call for a EPS transfer from a teammate, again another reason why VOIP software is critical for competative PVP since typing it out will take to long.
    wait a few to see the full drain affects.
    If and when your shield power levels drop to 0 then hit a battery, by that time the first BTS debuff will be gone since they only last 17-20 seconds long.
    If you notice all 3 being stacked on you then at that point you have a few options, get hull heals, engineer team (the hull resist is amazing on it and can help you take lots of hits) haz Em the hull heal will help but the resist stacks with ET resist, the science on the team should use dampening field for more resist, use brace for impact (grossly underused).
    Or
    full power to engines and emergency manuevers and run right at the escorts and by them since most escorts run cannons they will lose most of the fireppower they have.

    The idea that stacking BTS is wrong is the same as saying focus firing is wrong, its a team tactic and its very effective. I can understand that it can be frustrating, we see it all the time and we overcome it fine with teamwork. People need to remember that this is not a 1v1 pvp game this is a team play pvp system. Cruisers that are stacking RSP and sitting in a CP are not built for teamplay they need to go to CnH maps where the solo builds are rewarded more due to the random chaos that occurs there more. The simple facts are that people want to not die, and at the same time they want to kill others, well that is everyone so get over the fact that the game has team combos that work well together. There is no exploit unless by exploit you mean what the word actually means "to take advatage of a weakness". It is a weakness in the player skill levels not the game mechanics. The counters to BTS are out there and easy to find. The hardest thing to find is a group that knows how to play well together. Too many people in fleets that do not play with each other, that is what a frineds list is for, the PVPers need to get together and actually PVP as teams otherwise the PVP in this game will continue to diminish.
    Currently it is at a level that is pathetic, the only excitement is when I start a thread to gete the blood boiling and for a week or two thing light up. The last week its been deader than a warhammer server. Faith you said that I didn't flame and your amazed......it is because I have gotten tot he point where this sad excuse of a PVP community can't give us a solid challange on a nightly basis. Small 4 man fleets, people (like faithborn) begging for teams to play with, teams that beat PUGs thinking it's makign them better players is the problem.
    At this point I don't see this game lasting the summer(for me that is), especially with Crfyptic announcing they will be working towards a new IP and the utter lack of effort in putting out QUALITY content for this game.
    BTS easily countered. Need help let me know in game and I will show you in a match how to counter it, timing, B/O skills and teamwork is the easy answer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Emergency power to shields should repair the shield sub system, but that will only help you if it hasn't already just been used. Occasionally losing shields I can cope with, but the other day it happened again and again. At least TSS III is quite hard to find, and will usually cost a fortune on the exchange. But I do wish science team would bring that system back on-line as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    P3t3rH wrote:
    Emergency power to shields should repair the shield sub system, but that will only help you if it hasn't already just been used. Occasionally losing shields I can cope with, but the other day it happened again and again. At least TSS III is quite hard to find, and will usually cost a fortune on the exchange. But I do wish science team would bring that system back on-line as well.

    repair fixes disabled subsystems
    additional power fixes drained subsystems
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    A good Tac/Escort would instantly blow me up if he drops my shields right when his CRF is hitting me. Even on voice there would be no time to call for help...no time to react nothing. I understand what you are saying as ways to counter it but in practice I can essentially be blown up in seconds without shields or a quick RSP to buy me some time. At least my experience with TSS used on me is instant death. But whatever, it is what it is.

    As far as the lack of quality pvp for pre-mades or fleet groups I'd agree. It's one of the reasons I never bothered to join a fleet, what would be the point? There really is only one or two pre-made groups that I have ever run into that would justify the need to be in an organized group. The rest of the time it would be so absolute overkill that there just would not be any challenge at all. I mean absolutely none. So for me, I run mostly just in a random PuG and find challenges being shorthanded or having a few crud players on my side. Kind of unfortunate but I'm not surprised that things are this way.

    Without any real RvR or consequences for losing or incentives for winning the need to team up is greatly diminished. In PoTBS players were highly encouraged to work together as a group as well as a faction as a whole. I'd say the same thing for Warhammer, though to a much lesser extent than PoTBS. Since your actual performance in a battle could have tangible results in the War effort groups could, and did, make a difference. Sorry for getting off topic lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Engineer team is what brings the down shield system back up.

    I have found I can counter TSS if I hit a shield battery, then hit engineer team then RSP.
    If they keep firing on me my shields recharge from the attacks and that can buy me the time I need to escape.
    Of course if its a team your pretty much dead if you don't have a team to help.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Seriously?
    Right now shields are very weak, but absolutely necessary. Which is not a good combination. So, RSP isn't so much overpowered as it is irreplaceable because this is the only ability that allows shields to, well, shield you. The fact that it follows up by being TOO effective is just annoying. ES is fine, it makes the source ship vulnerable (since they can't RSP), and targetable (because of blue line), and has a pretty limited range. Considering all that, it should be as powerful as it currently is.

    TSS is only counterable if the team using it is bad. In my escort, against an unshielded target, their lifespan is generally seconds (2 or 3) if I am the ONLY ONE shooting at them. That is how long it takes my volley of cannon and torpedoes to arrive. A shielded target (say the cruiser putting out ES) can count on a solid 6-10 seconds of life (two volleys from my heavy cannons on Rapid FIre). This is enough time for on the ball teammates to save them with ES and other abilities, but again this is if I am the only one firing at them. I run a sci captain in an escort, so any buffs other than ES evaporate under SNB (including RSP, ET, HE, ST, EPS, EPS power transfer, you name it), which I am smart enough to use just before the arrival of my damaging volley so hull resists from HE and ET are a non-issue, as is any energy resistance from Dampening Field since 95% of the damage is coming from my Torpedoes. I can SEE if the target is buffed! And I'm not an idiot, so I know when to use SNB. Now that it is reactive I don't have to waste it on unprepared targets, I just wait for the guy who IS on the ball and make sure it doesn't matter.

    My escort runs one Beam Array rear, (Dual Heavies + One Torp front, 2 Turrets plus one Beam Array back). I load up one TSS (which doesnt go off while I am pointed at target) along with Sensor Scan (-50% resist), APO III (+50% damage, leaving him taking a total of +4x damage), CRFII, HYII, announce I am firing, drop the volley and turn. The Beam then hits with TSS I, one (usually only one) of my teammates hits the same target the same way, and his shields drop. This may only have lasted for 1 or 2 seconds until he hit EPS or got help, but it doesn't matter because he dies in the first volley every time. Every single time. He can't "prepare" before hand because if I see that he has buffs I hit him with SNB (or my partner does if mine is on cooldown) and he gets whacked anyway, and there just isn't time to do anything about it after the fact.

    Now its 5v4, and we can repeat with the next target without even turning away. We can, and regularly do, vaporize two ships on a single pass and both of us keep our speed up for max defense (the only thing TSS doesn't affect) so it doesnt take long for us to fly through a formation.

    On the receiving end, we die just as easily. If TSS is coordinated on targets and timed at all, there just isn't time to do anything about it. 20k plus hits from torpedoes from each of 2 ships is just too much. The only defense we have found is exactly that, defense, so we both run Elusive and keep our speed up so we have 75% defense. Doesn't always work, but that is all we have at the moment.

    So at the end of the day, I'm rapidly losing interest in PvP because, as has been pointed out many, many times before, damage is just too high at the moment. We are performing what is essentially a series of one shot kills, and that just isn't all that much fun no matter which end of the stick you are holding.

    JMO, YMMV.

    By the way, my toon is Leah, so if you play Klinks you KNOW I know what I'm talking about, and even if you play Fed you are probably familiar with me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    This is not true. The last time I had drains stacked on me, I was being drained for over 200 power. (I know this because I was stacking max power level preset + Emergency Power + EPS Power Transfer + battery in an attempt to counter.) This may have been due to a bug (i.e., not intended), but this is what I have experienced.

    Your shield subsystem was down...another percentage-chance proc from BTSS (any version). I noticed in the list of counters you mentioned during this "over 200 power drain" you do not list any version of an Engineering Team.

    As a member of a notorious "BTSS exploiting" fleet I can tell you we have far more experience with its use, strategic employment, and counters than 95% of the PvP'ers out there. You cannot stack multiple versions of the same BTSS but you can stack multiple copies of different versions up to -125 power drain.

    The key to effective countering is maximum shield power and drain rate monitoring. The drain is not instantaneous. It occurs over a few seconds so you have to first max your shield power. As you see the shield power approaching a critical level pop a shield battery. If after the battery effects wear off it continues to drop, wait till the drain reaches a point close to the cut-off for shield functionality and hit a version of EPtS. By this time the drain effects will be over and you'll have survived with shields UP the entire time. If necessary a teammate can throw you an EPS Transfer during this time if your batteries are on cooldown. If you're a Sci Vessel, Energy Syphon works well here also. Should you not be able to counter the drain due to subsystem failure, power cooldowns, stacking, etc use hull resists and team heals to survive.

    Now...are there bugs with this system? Sure. There are bugs with almost every power or weapon in this game. Beam Overlord permanently disabling weapons from firing. Viral Matrix sometimes functioning and sometimes not. Shield bugs. Crit bugs. The list goes on and on. But the power is neither an "exploit" in the negative connotation of the word nor is it same-version stackable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    BountyXP wrote: »
    Your shield subsystem was down...another percentage-chance proc from BTSS (any version). I noticed in the list of counters you mentioned during this "over 200 power drain" you do not list any version of an Engineering Team.
    I tend to use Engineering Team III, but I omitted it from my list because I was not certain if I had used it at that time.

    Also, not sure why your tone is so hostile, as I did not accuse anyone of exploiting, nor am I referencing any specific encounter with you. (In fact, I am referencing an encounter in a different match, where you were not present. In my most recent match with you, I did manage to counter a few of the drains, which tells me I was not being hit by multiple copies of Target III.)

    Specifically, in the encounter to which I refer, my shield subsystem was not offline (before implementing counters). Again, this was several patches ago, so this could have been a bug that is now resolved. But at the time, I could report that 200+ drain did occur, which means the same rank stacking with itself from multiple sources.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I tend to use Engineering Team III, but I omitted it from my list because I was not certain if I had used it at that time.

    The Engi Teams are the only thing to bring back the downed subsystem but there were some bugs with the issue of recognizing whether or not a subsystem was "down" versus simply drained beyond recovery. This has since been addressed.
    Also, not sure why your tone is so hostile, as I did not accuse anyone of exploiting, nor am I referencing any specific encounter with you. (In fact, I am referencing an encounter in a different match, where you were not present. In my most recent match with you, I did manage to counter a few of the drains, which tells me I was not being hit by multiple copies of Target III.)

    One of the dangers of forums in particular and the written word in general...tone, inflection, and sarcasm tend to be lost on the reader as there is no way to interpret meaning, inflection, circumstance, or facial expression. In no way was I meaning to be "hostile." In fact we've had some good conversations and debates on both the forums and in-game.

    As for our last encounter in team play, you were targeted often and early as we knew you'd be the only one healing (take it as a compliment of skill). In that match it was a matter of hitting you with a TSS II (mine drains -68) and then popping you with a Subnucleonic Beam when you counter and hit RSP. But, yes, there were bugs with the skill and on the rare occassions...shields had to be removed and re-equipped to the ship to repair the downed system. This, also, has since been addressed and repaired.
    Specifically, in the encounter to which I refer, my shield subsystem was not offline (before implementing counters). Again, this was several patches ago, so this could have been a bug that is now resolved. But at the time, I could report that 200+ drain did occur, which means the same rank stacking with itself from multiple sources.

    As of now...and in its current iteration...multiple same-level versions cannot be stacked so it is no longer an issue. The problem is many people do not stagger counters, watch drains appropriately (the infamous "DPS tunnel vision"), or simply do not have the appropriate counters equipped (batteries, EPtS, etc). In your case, you have developed the appropriate defense strategy and counter implementation which means there is a means of combating TSS unlike the assertion of many forum QQ'ers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    On a sidenote, just because soft or hard counters to certain abilities that may(or may not) be overpowerd or even gamebreaking, exist, doesn't mean that these abilities are not to be considered too powerful(overpowered) and gamedefining, and by that misdesigned, especially if there also exist other absolutely insignificantly weak abilities that will allways get left out because of these extremely powerful ones.

    You may get along well in a broken game environment because you pick a handfull of the most powerful abilities in the game, and also their appropriate counters, and have fun with it and assume its ok cause you perform well, but that doesn't change the fact that this is still at the very least poorly designed from an objective point of view, and very "unbalanced" (between abilities, not between factions)whether you like the sound of this word or not.


    More on topic: the whole evening i wasn't able even once, to get my shield subsystems back to normal at all with Engineering Team after being tss'ed, and i allways had to endure the full duration of it. ET seems to do absolutely nothing in that aspect, at least it didn't for me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Goukes wrote: »
    More on topic: the whole evening i wasn't able even once, to get my shield subsystems back to normal at all with Engineering Team after being tss'ed, and i allways had to endure the full duration of it. ET seems to do absolutely nothing in that aspect, at least it didn't for me.

    To quote Faithborn here:
    faithborn wrote:
    repair fixes disabled subsystems
    additional power fixes drained subsystems

    The Engineering Team will only affect TSS if the subsystem is down. You need to use the previously detailed counters in the prescribed manner to counter the most serious of drains. Typically only two of the four counters are needed but aginst heavy TSS III and II stacks you could need all four. If the drain is properly countered but the subsystem is down only then would you need to pop the Engi Team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    after extensive testing with DOB...

    turns out that multiple shots of the target shield subsystem actually do stack, as long as the weapon firing them is different i.e.: 1 version of tss2 with antiproton dual beam bank and 1 version of tss2 with a phaser array.

    This was formerly not the case, must have been ninja'd in the 1.1 patch.


    Also; While I admit that there are plenty of counters to it, and that it is fine as it is, getting 6 copies of tss put on someone at a single time is just about as TRIBBLE as it can get.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    faithborn wrote:

    Also; While I admit that there are plenty of counters to it, and that it is fine as it is, getting 6 copies of tss put on someone at a single time is just about as TRIBBLE as it can get.

    Its just stupidity wasting that many on a single, and even more hilarious that you actually needed that many to take a single ship down.
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