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The Current RAF Program is Not Fair and Is Illegal in Certain Countries

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User

As you may or may not know, I have other threads on this topic. I am not trying to badger Cryptic... as the other posts have specifically DIFFERENT points to be made. Additionally, I was asked by someone else in this community to post this on their behalf.

I am writing this to make them AWARE... as it seems that they have not yet stated who would be eligible for the Refer a Friend (RAF) perks and who is not.

The RAF Scheme as it is now is illegal in Denmark and other countries

Simply put, the Refer A Friend scheme makes it impossible for some people to get access to the Galaxy X. As quoted by a friend in the community:

Basically using existing customers to get more customers and rewarding them with assets or items of monetary value falls under the pyramid scheme laws here, WoW were not allowed to even do thier own referal program here. Also, since you could be rewarding minors (people under 18) you are effectively, according to the law, taking advantage of minors.

This worked to the exclusion of some members within the WoW community.
Recruit a Friend - Denmark?

The Galaxy X and all other perks for the RAF program are therefore completely unobtainable by some in this community. Anyway Cryptic, I hope this helps you to rethink your RAF program. If on the other hand you choose to go forward with it, please be sure to do all necessary research as to which countries are elligible and which are not. Ideally this should have been done before the program was announced, so as not to get the hopes up of some, only for them to find out later they can not participate. Ouch :(

For all of you that vehemently support STO and LOVE Cryptic to pieces, please keep the flames to a minimum. I'm not posting this to be badgered by some of you, I'm just trying to give them information they may not be aware of or have not considered.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I disagree with the Galaxy X being part of the RAF but honestly, I think this law is funny.



    Personally, I say (insert insult here) Denmark.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The fix is simple. Remove all Cryptic Points rewards. And viola ... all the rewards no longer have monetary value.

    I like this idea. Gets rid of the C-Store angle that everyone is clamoring for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    And WoW deleted its refer-a-friend policies knowing this?

    Or EVE Online's buddy program?

    I understand that you want the Galaxy X.

    I just don't see the entire program going away as those two games (however you feel about them) still retain their programs.

    As for the Galaxy X, it hasn't been ruled out right that it won't appear by other means.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    I disagree with the Galaxy X being part of the RAF but honestly, I think this law is funny.



    Personally, I say (insert insult here) Denmark.

    I also disagree with the Galaxy X being part of the RAF program... but there are other threads for that. Hah. Remember back in the old days before the game's release... we were lead to believe that with the character creator we would have access to all these great races and such within the ST Universe... but at launch we have X number of races, and with whats added we need to pay for. Whats disappointing with regards to the statement you made... is that this is the first canon ship to be added to the game since launch... and low and behold it is made exclusive through an ill-timed raf program. :(

    This is the worst part:
    To be honest... I think pretty much everyone wants the Galaxy X to be made available and obtainable IN GAME... but no one wants to say it. Instead, so many people are saying "put it in the C-Store" as a mere concession or compromise... even I have suggested that once, but only because my perception of Cryptic doesn't allow for the possibility of them being so generous as to make it a non-exclusive, non C-store item.

    Anyway, I don't mean to hi-jack my own thread, just wanted to reply to your comment.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The fix is simple. Remove all Cryptic Points rewards. And viola ... all the rewards no longer have monetary value.

    I like this idea. Gets rid of the C-Store angle that everyone is clamoring for.

    Dude, you beat me to it. But yes, I agree with you. See my comment above this one.
    And WoW deleted its refer-a-friend policies knowing this?

    Or EVE Online's buddy program?

    I understand that you want the Galaxy X.

    I just don't see the entire program going away as those two games (however you feel about them) still retain their programs.

    As for the Galaxy X, it hasn't been ruled out right that it won't appear by other means.

    The OP doesn't blatantly call for the removal of the RAF program, just that they either rethink it, or that they make it clear that some people can not participate. Did you miss that part Darren?

    As for your last statement, Dstahl said that the Galaxy X would be exclusive to the RAF program. There will be other Galaxy variants, but it won't have the 3rd nacelle or the super phaser (The Galaxy X). ;) Please don't make me go find his quotes...:) but if you dont want to take my word for it, I will (grudgingly :p)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    So people in Denmark won't be able to do the RAF. Don't see a problem there. Usually all companies have a different program or such for different countries. Take for example, EA ran a program for minor DLC with Dr. Pepper but you could typically only buy Dr. Pepper in the south. A lot of folks missed out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Silly thread. At best all that will happen is that they'll just make RAF rewards unavailable to people from those countries. Ever see that classic disclaimer? 'Offer void where prohibited by law.'

    I'm sure the people of Denmark will thank you one day.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    personae wrote:
    Silly thread. At best all that will happen is that they'll just make RAF rewards unavailable to people from those countries. Ever see that classic disclaimer? 'Offer void where prohibited by law.'

    I'm sure the people of Denmark will thank you one day.

    Actually, it was someone from Denmark who asked me to post this thread. So...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I also disagree with the Galaxy X being part of the RAF program... but there are other threads for that. Hah. Remember back in the old days before the game's release... we were lead to believe that with the character creator we would have access to all these great races and such within the ST Universe... but at launch we have X number of races, and with whats added we need to pay for. Whats disappointing with regards to the statement you made... is that this is the first canon ship to be added to the game since launch... and low and behold it is made exclusive through an ill-timed raf program. :(


    Not disagreeing with you. However, personally, I don't think the company should stop a program because one or two countries have a silly law. (Yes, that is my opinion.) I think they should change the RAF because it is the right thing to do, not because of Denmark.

    This is the worst part:
    To be honest... I think pretty much everyone wants the Galaxy X to be made available and obtainable IN GAME... but no one wants to say it. Instead, so many people are saying "put it in the C-Store" as a mere concession or compromise... even I have suggested that once, but only because my perception of Cryptic doesn't allow for the possibility of them being so generous as to make it a non-exclusive, non C-store item.

    Anyway, I don't mean to hi-jack my own thread, just wanted to reply to your comment.

    Again, I agree.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The fix is simple. Remove all Cryptic Points rewards. And viola ... all the rewards no longer have monetary value.

    I like this idea. Gets rid of the C-Store angle that everyone is clamoring for.

    I agree. How can Cryptic make money off of micro-transactions if they demand credit cards or paypal as the only forms of payments?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Dude, you beat me to it. But yes, I agree with you. See my comment above this one.



    The OP doesn't blatantly call for the removal of the RAF program, just that they either rethink it, or that they make it clear that some people can not participate. Did you miss that part Darren?

    As for your last statement, Dstahl said that the Galaxy X would be exclusive to the RAF program. There will be other Galaxy variants, but it won't have the 3rd nacelle or the super phaser (The Galaxy X). ;) Please don't make me go find his quotes...:) but if you dont want to take my word for it, I will (grudgingly :p)

    And dstahl's quote doesn't say that it's ruled out in the future. It just says when ti releases the other Galaxy variants might be missing the super-beam (which means it'll look the part but not play it) or that the it'll be missing the nacelle (the opposite). That's how I read it.

    It could very well be a purist version of the ship (i.e. not modular and exact details, whereas everyone else will have a 3 nacelle - or Galaxy X that will be slightly off to accommodate the modular ship design).

    I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm right - just that there are possibilties. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It's not illegal and you pretty much have a failed argument . Blizzard doesn't restrict who can get the recruitment bonus, the country the person is from does. Blizz could offer in Denmark but the laws are so convoluted that their legal dept said don't bother. And no I'd rather have the ship available in the C-store.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Actually, it was someone from Denmark who asked me to post this thread. So...

    Irrelevant. If its a legal complication in a few countries, the offer wont be extended to them. That simple.

    But lets be honest here. No one honestly cares about international law and the RAF program. People just want the Galaxy and don't like what it takes to get it. Any other concern is a distant second to that. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    And dstahl's quote doesn't say that it's ruled out in the future. It just says when ti releases the other Galaxy variants might be missing the super-beam (which means it'll look the part but not play it) or that the it'll be missing the nacelle (the opposite). That's how I read it.

    It could very well be a purist version of the ship (i.e. not modular and exact details, whereas everyone else will have a 3 nacelle - or Galaxy X that will be slightly off to accommodate the modular ship design).

    I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm right - just that there are possibilties. :)

    The Super Beam's my favorite bit. I can't wait for them to put that in. Everyone's going to be alllll hyped up! All OOOOH! And AAAAHHHHH!

    And then they'll get it.

    And realize it's a cannon type weapon.

    On a T5 cruiser.

    A 90 degree or 45 degree firing arc ability.

    On ... a ... T5 ... CRUISER!

    I can't wait for the complaint threads! It's going to be so much fun reading them!

    I've flown a lot of cruisers between my characters. And the last thing I want is a huge cannon on it.

    ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    And dstahl's quote doesn't say that it's ruled out in the future. It just says when ti releases the other Galaxy variants might be missing the super-beam (which means it'll look the part but not play it) or that the it'll be missing the nacelle (the opposite). That's how I read it.

    It could very well be a purist version of the ship (i.e. not modular and exact details, whereas everyone else will have a 3 nacelle - or Galaxy X that will be slightly off to accommodate the modular ship design).

    I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm right - just that there are possibilties. :)

    If it doesn't have the 3rd nacelle, and the super phaser... then it is not the Galaxy X from All Good Things.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I dunno, I think yer entire argument is bunk on account of the Galaxy-X and other rewards don't actually have an assigned monetary value to them. At all. You are simply being rewarded for getting more people to play Cryptic's game. The game itself has monetary value, as do the subscriptions, but the rewards? Well, see, IF they were to be put into the C-Store at some point, then one could extrapolate a numerical value based on that. But as it stands, they aren't actually worth anything measurable. They are simply given to you when you get more people to play.
    And has been mentioned, Denmark law is pretty convoluted on this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    If it doesn't have the 3rd nacelle, and the super phaser... then it is not the Galaxy X from All Good Things.

    Like I mentioned the second part you quoted:

    The RAF version may be non-modular (meaning they can get the costume perfect).
    The regular version may be modular (meaning small changes might be made, even if you select all the parts).

    It's possible. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    The Super Beam's my favorite bit. I can't wait for them to put that in. Everyone's going to be alllll hyped up! All OOOOH! And AAAAHHHHH!

    And then they'll get it.

    And realize it's a cannon type weapon.

    On a T5 cruiser.

    A 90 degree or 45 degree firing arc ability.

    On ... a ... T5 ... CRUISER!

    I can't wait for the complaint threads! It's going to be so much fun reading them!

    I've flown a lot of cruisers between my characters. And the last thing I want is a huge cannon on it.

    ;)


    And it'll probably have a more limited range like the 'point defense' pre-order turrent too. Again, they've stated they are NOT going tomake an inate ship power 'too good'. Also, they stated they were CONSIDERING puting a non-combat cloaking device; so again read 'non-combat' and 'considering'.

    But hey, it wouldn;'t be Star Trek fandom (and I've been a part of that fandom since 1969); if a small subset of fans didn't release unbridled nerdrage over a small bit of minutae (really, the 3 nacelle 1701-D is now 'iconic' afyter beinhg in the final TNG epidsode for about 10 minutes? Hel, that variant onscreen was MORE a homage to the 3 nacelle Federation Dreadnaught shown in the Star Trek Tech manual circa 1975. IMO that Dreadnaught is the 'more iconic' version as TOS fans had been using it in the Starfleet Battles boardgam since 1980 ;) - but I digress).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    GT01 wrote: »
    I dunno, I think yer entire argument is bunk on account of the Galaxy-X and other rewards don't actually have an assigned monetary value to them. At all.

    One of the rewards is cryptic points. And they do have an assigned monetary value to them. But, removing them from the deal removes the monetary issue.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Its also against the german law! (§ 16 Abs. 2 UWG)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010

    This is the worst part:
    To be honest... I think pretty much everyone wants the Galaxy X to be made available and obtainable IN GAME... but no one wants to say it. Instead, so many people are saying "put it in the C-Store" as a mere concession or compromise... even I have suggested that once, but only because my perception of Cryptic doesn't allow for the possibility of them being so generous as to make it a non-exclusive, non C-store item.

    Anyway, I don't mean to hi-jack my own thread, just wanted to reply to your comment.

    I would much rather it be in the C-Store than in-game. I'm still pretty desperately trying to find a group to get through the Queen in "Infected", "The Cure" and "Khitomer Accord" just for the extra Borg BO.

    As much as I'd like to see this offered more ways, I'd rather have to recruit 5 people or drop real money than go through a chain of STFs for something like this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Not available in all areas, some restrictions may apply.

    Standard disclaimer in any EULA you'll ever read.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Dude, you beat me to it. But yes, I agree with you. See my comment above this one.



    The OP doesn't blatantly call for the removal of the RAF program, just that they either rethink it, or that they make it clear that some people can not participate. Did you miss that part Darren?

    As for your last statement, Dstahl said that the Galaxy X would be exclusive to the RAF program. There will be other Galaxy variants, but it won't have the 3rd nacelle or the super phaser (The Galaxy X). ;) Please don't make me go find his quotes...:) but if you dont want to take my word for it, I will (grudgingly :p)

    Tangent: The forum labelled "Dev-Tracker" is exactly for these purposes - it links to every post made by Devs/GMs and so on. http://forums.startrekonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64
    Might take some time to find the quote, but if the topic is recent, good chances you can find it even on the first 1 or 2 pages.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Tangent: The forum labelled "Dev-Tracker" is exactly for these purposes - it links to every post made by Devs/GMs and so on. http://forums.startrekonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64
    Might take some time to find the quote, but if the topic is recent, good chances you can find it even on the first 1 or 2 pages.

    Here's what the developers have told us about the Galaxy X from the RAF promotion (in chronological order):

    This first one was from dstahl - it's the quote Jacob and I are debating:
    dstahl wrote: »
    Before any more pitchforks get handed out... let me offer up some info before you go burning down the village.

    The 3-Nacelle Future Enterprise config will be an exclusive variant of a T5 Galaxy ship we are planning to add to the game as we increase the skillcap at various points in the future. In fact I see plans on the schedule to add T5 versions of the Galaxy, Intrepid, and Defiant class.

    So yes - the Future Enterprise - 3 Nacelle config is an exclusive "variant" and may be the only T5 Galaxy for a while, but there will be ways to get similar ships in the future - they just might not have the 3rd Nacelle - or front mount single phaser cannon.

    you may now go back to your regularly scheduled riot...

    Later quotes:
    dstahl wrote: »
    Is that before or after people started a riot in the store over a promotional sign?

    If it was before - I could see your point - but once people are calling for the store to be burned, I say its fair game to call a riot a riot.

    Expecially when most people wanted an alternate way to get a T5 Galaxy - and that has been in the plans the entire time - it just required a few minutes for us to find the thread and respond with the answer.



    Actually, it does have the bad-TRIBBLE phaser cannon on the underside of the saucer - it is a unique power that comes with the ship (ie not a weapon slot) and fires a narrow cylindor beam that (I believe) will be capable of hitting multiple targets.
    dstahl wrote: »
    exactly this.

    The entire team is expected to constantly deliver based on their discipline. Everyone has individual schedules of what they should be working on next. In the case of the 3rd Nacelle config for the galaxy - that was done by the lead ship model artist (with a little of his own extra time) in addition to all the cool new ships he is working on for the new sectors coming to the game.
    dstahl wrote: »
    The 3rd nacelle variant was done in conjunction with working on fixing up the Galaxy - and if you check out the Galaxy on Tribble - you'll notice it has been updated.

    Multi-task!
    dstahl wrote: »
    Talking with the systems designer who is working on the Galaxy - there is a goal to bring iconic ships to the end game - not just as geo variants - but with unique functionality. The Galaxy X is the first such ship he's working on but it is setting the tone for how the others will/may work. The trade-off may be that these ships will be restricted from customization. Take for example the Galaxy. One of the reason's we haven't implemented a Galaxy saucer separation yet is because the fx to do so will not work with all the different parts that players can customize on their ship. However if we restrict the geo customization - we could do cool features like that and make some of these end tier ship super unique. btw.. we are currently *not* working on a Galaxy saucer separation power - but we'd sure like to.
    dstahl wrote: »
    The Galaxy X was a specific ship created specifically for the Referral program. The goal with the other end game ships is that they would be unlockable by reaching the next tier level but the specifics of that are still be discussed.



    Here's what I know about it so far - The cannon is specific to this ship, and takes the place of a weapon's slot, but is not an item that can be removed and placed on another ship. It shows up as a captain's power on your weapon tray. The beam is intendend to be a very narrow front cylinder beam that can pass through objects and hit multiple targets if you are lined up properly (out to a set distance).

    There are no details yet on recharge timers or how it impacts cooldowns of other powers/weapons.

    I've also heard rumor that it may have a non-battle cloak - which means that it might be able to cloak - but only out of combat.

    Once the designer is finished with the ship - I'll see if I can get the full details.

    The ship will be available by the time that your referals hit their first 30 day billing cycle.

    also...

    Management is aware of this thread ...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    personae wrote:
    Silly thread. At best all that will happen is that they'll just make RAF rewards unavailable to people from those countries. Ever see that classic disclaimer? 'Offer void where prohibited by law.'
    I'm sure the people of Denmark will thank you one day.
    Bingo.
    Basically using existing customers to get more customers and rewarding them with assets or items of monetary value falls under the pyramid scheme laws here, WoW were not allowed to even do thier own referal program here. Also, since you could be rewarding minors (people under 18) you are effectively, according to the law, taking advantage of minors.

    Now I'm no expert on Danish law (or any law for that matter), but to my knowledge, in game items have no monetary value (regardless of gold spammers, et al) and therefore would not fall under this law. Try to buy groceries with energy credits or try to put that Galaxy-X towards a trade for a new car. I for one have not seen any in game items on Craigslist yet.

    If for some reason that it does fall under their law, the the first quote takes effect.

    You talk about excluding Denmark. They wouldn't be the first to be excluded from a special offer (Del Taco?)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010





    Now I'm no expert on Danish law (or any law for that matter), but to my knowledge, in game items have no monetary value (regardless of gold spammers, et al) and therefore would not fall under this law. Try to buy groceries with energy credits or try to put that Galaxy-X towards a trade for a new car. I for one have not seen any in game items on Craigslist yet.

    If for some reason that it does fall under their law, the the first quote takes effect.


    I was thinking the same thing. according the the quote "Basically using existing customers to get more customers and rewarding them with assets or items of monetary value falls under the pyramid scheme laws here, WoW were not allowed to even do thier own referal program here. Also, since you could be rewarding minors (people under 18) you are effectively, according to the law, taking advantage of minors."

    How does the Galaxy X have monetary value if it is an exclusive offer and can never be purchased any other way?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    For Danish users (including me) here is the law in question, and why we can with good consience take part in the RAF:

    Italic text is the danish text, from a public controled law information site, with the english translation below.

    https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=2288#K2
    LBK nr 555 af 06/06/2006
    Bekendtg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I also disagree with the Galaxy X being part of the RAF program... but there are other threads for that. Hah. Remember back in the old days before the game's release... we were lead to believe that with the character creator we would have access to all these great races and such within the ST Universe... but at launch we have X number of races, and with whats added we need to pay for. Whats disappointing with regards to the statement you made... is that this is the first canon ship to be added to the game since launch... and low and behold it is made exclusive through an ill-timed raf program. :(

    This is the worst part:
    To be honest... I think pretty much everyone wants the Galaxy X to be made available and obtainable IN GAME... but no one wants to say it. Instead, so many people are saying "put it in the C-Store" as a mere concession or compromise... even I have suggested that once, but only because my perception of Cryptic doesn't allow for the possibility of them being so generous as to make it a non-exclusive, non C-store item.

    Anyway, I don't mean to hi-jack my own thread, just wanted to reply to your comment.

    Personally I blame CBS for taking the tightwad approach as it pertains to all canon content in game and out. But as you point out...thats another thread entirly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    anazonda wrote: »
    For Danish users (including me) here is the law in question, and why we can with good consience take part in the RAF:

    Italic text is the danish text, from a public controled law information site, with the english translation below.

    https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/R0710.aspx?id=2288#K2





    This does not apply as it is not required by players to deposit money, as the refferal is just to a trial period.
    What we will be referring to does not require the one we reffer to deposit money. The trial is just sampeling the game, and the "subject" sampeling is afterwards not required to continue the game or compensate for game time.



    There is no actual economic gain in perspective for any of any of the participating parties (unless you count Cryptic as a participant... Not sure about this TBH). While it is true that there are ingame perks that can be aquired IF a certain amount og "subjects" chooses to sign up for supscription, there is no real life gain of any sorts. There is ATM no promises of:
    - Refund/coverage of the Supscription for the one who invites others to participate.
    - No cash transaction from one the "Subject" or any other "Subjects" to the Inviting member.




    Again: As there is no finicial/economic gains by "subjects" and as such does not qualify as a pyramid game. The ingame perks are not translateable into real life economics, as it is a gift from cryptic in form of a, in essence, completeley useless item.


    On a sidenote: To all you who thinks this is a stupid law: This law was put in place to prevent the inherit scamming that occours in pyramid games. People have lost litteraly hundreds of millions of money worldwide because of such scams. None of wich has been payed taxes for or is registered as legal games.
    One can wonder who is really stupid: The contry that allows people to scam their citezens or the one who actively seeks to prevent this.

    Thank you for this. Hopefully this will cool some peoples jets. I guess some research is necessary before people start a crusade. hehe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Pikoy wrote:
    Thank you for this. Hopefully this will cool some peoples jets. I guess some research is necessary before people start a crusade. hehe

    A note on this: I did not post this without foundation. The law posted is THE actual written law, and the responses are based on a conversation i had with a legal student after reading the first post.
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