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My Most Compelling Reason to Quit STO: Cryptic's new game

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Not a quit thread per se...

More of a "If you keep doing this I'll lose all confidence in Cryptic, leading me to quit" thread... whew.

The biggest bone I have to pick with Cryptic is not the new RAF, or the multitude of exclusives for money, oh no. Those I can live with, despite their "make a quick buck" nature.

I'm upset over the fact that Cryptic is making ANOTHER MMO.


Ok, I get it, you want to make money. That's fine. I suppose it's good business. Or at least, you appear to be making good business, since you're continuing this current trend of flooding the market with MMOs at record pace. If it's profitable, well then, more power to ya.

But don't expect me to stick around. Cryptic, if you really have the resources to throw around and make a NEW MMO, then perhaps you should have taken a step back and solidified what you already have on the table. STO came out with a PATHETIC amount of content, yet, cause of my love for the IP, friends, and promises that "you'd make it all better", I stayed.

And now, months down the road, I finally see a game with content that it should have been SHIPPED with. Literally, right now, I can finish all the end game content in a single night. Mostly cause I've had nothing to do but receive the best weapons, drops, and play the same content over and over again till I can play thru Infected with my eyes closed. With only three "classes" I've got them all, and really, if you level up once, there is literally NO REASON to "explore" leveling up again due to the terribly small amount of story quests (as good as some are).

But really, the release schedule of content has been impressive, and ambitious. I applaud that. But I can't help but think, in the back of my mind while playing, what could be done if a large chunk of your development team, working on this next MMO, was assigned to current bug testing and development on STO. Would things get done faster? Not really, in a sense, but you could definitely fit a lot more content into the pipeline.

Maybe it's time to think "customer retention" instead of "new IP/game exploration." In business terms, the former is quite safer, and the latter more risky. So which one is smarter for business? I guess time will tell. But I'm sure I'm not the only one considering Cryptic's future, or, more specifically, why should I trust another game from this publisher? Because you seem to be setting a very steady track record for future games, and I believe that at least a large part, if not the majority, of customer consensus is "I don't like it."
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    (corrected by future posts, please ignore)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I believe their new MMO is on hold. Possible due to issues with their license.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Actually, very valid point. I think that is what would finally make me turn in my badge: If they're already developing another MMO...

    that being said: i do understand that this is a business, and one needs to continue to produce product in order to continue making that business grow.

    Cryptic did mention this 'cookie cutter' MMO engine they've developed. If its just a 'blah blah, shoot this, collect this' kinda thing, I'll be a bit more understanding. If its clearly a design of this MMO engine of theirs, fine.

    but if its a great game? if its seriously detailed and well-thought out? if it has surprisingly in-depth endgame? yeah, then I'm going to have to finally quit STO, because that, i guess, would prove to me that they really weren't ever in this for the fans and for the love of the genre themselves.

    Maybe they've hired a couple new people to develop any upcoming MMO? that's another thing that would help me be a bit more understanding... I'd love to see/have at least 10 devs devoted to the maintanence and continuance of STO.

    If they're gonna cut and run, yeah, so am I. I'll be sad about doing so, but I can only take so much...



    d3n
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Shortly after Cryptic announced Champions Online they announced STO and a third, unknown MMO. That was over 2 years ago. Since that time the 3rd MMO has been put on hold.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    So the most compelling reason to quit STO is an unconfirmed rumor?:confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    OP I agree, some of those resources need to be poured in to STO. ( forget CO, and NWN, who has the bigger fan base, ) it's really stupid, this game could be a cash cow for them if you would just step up to the plate, and blow it out of the water.

    it's really a shame when you think about it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I was wondering when this piece of news would hit the CO/STO forums. :D

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4215/Cryptic-Studios-Cryptic-Studios-Bill-Roper-Interview.html (interview dated May 4)
    Bill Roper wrote:
    I can't speak to the specifics of what we're doing, but it's true that we have another game in the works. We won't be making an announcement until late summer, and we're still a ways off from launch. I can say that this is a game and a franchise we're very excited about. I think people are going to pleased and a bit surprised with what we're doing in terms of the game, how we make it, and even how we sell and support it. The game is being developed around new design principles merged with Cryptic's community-first approach to ongoing development.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    OP I agree, some of those resources need to be poured in to STO. ( forget CO, and NWN, who has the bigger fan base, ) it's really stupid, this game could be a cash cow for them if you would just step up to the plate, and blow it out of the water.

    it's really a shame when you think about it.
    There's an old CO video with Bill Roper where they're discussing the 5-man team they have fleshing out concepts for their 3rd MMO. I'm not exactly sure those 5 men would make a huge impact on STO. The help would be appreciated, just as the CO help that was given to STO a couple of months prior to launch, but it's not going to make a dent in the content issues of STO. Also, it's easy to say "forget CO" but looking at it numerically, would losing 30,000 fans by forgetting CO automatically mean that more then 30,000 fans would join STO? Probably not. You'd end up losing more then you gained.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I was wondering when this piece of news would hit the CO/STO forums. :D

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4215/Cryptic-Studios-Cryptic-Studios-Bill-Roper-Interview.html (interview dated May 4)

    It doesn't matter, STO still has it's own dev team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    personae wrote:
    So the most compelling reason to quit STO is an unconfirmed rumor?:confused:

    Well... at least for the OP it is...

    and for all we know... them working on the next MMO could be a design guy, a few art guys making models and textures, and one engine guy starting to make the modifications to the Cryptic Engine needed to get some super alpha test demo of the game working by the end of the year...

    All that being said... I would love to know how many people they still have working on STO...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I was wondering when this piece of news would hit the CO/STO forums. :D

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4215/Cryptic-Studios-Cryptic-Studios-Bill-Roper-Interview.html (interview dated May 4)

    I stand corrected.

    Apparently, it's a game and franchise they're excited about.

    However, that doesn't mean that the slush funds from both the recent launches won't go to setting up a small, new team for prototyping.

    I'd be cautious before jumping to conclusions: as of yet the STO team hasn't cut their staff (aside from the ones they temporarily pulled in for launching). Aside from Gozer's departure, the team is largely the same.

    I can see content coming out at a steady rate (as mentioned in the OP) because the team size hasn't changed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    There's an old CO video with Bill Roper where they're discussing the 5-man team they have fleshing out concepts for their 3rd MMO. I'm not exactly sure those 5 men would make a huge impact on STO. The help would be appreciated, just as the CO help that was given to STO a couple of months prior to launch, but it's not going to make a dent in the content issues of STO. Also, it's easy to say "forget CO" but looking at it numerically, would losing 30,000 fans by forgetting CO automatically mean that more then 30,000 fans would join STO? Probably not. You'd end up losing more then you gained.

    you do have a point. ( CO has 30k?)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Cosmic_One wrote: »
    Shortly after Cryptic announced Champions Online they announced STO and a third, unknown MMO. That was over 2 years ago. Since that time the 3rd MMO has been put on hold.


    yay!


    d3n
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    personae wrote:
    So the most compelling reason to quit STO is an unconfirmed rumor?:confused:

    Hardly unconfirmed, as has been stated in this thread, thru interviews and press releases.

    The very fact that they are considering it makes me angry. The biggest complaint about STO is the lack of content. Would spreading their resources even thinner on ANOTHER MMO help this situation?

    Absolutely not. They should pool their resources into their existing IPs, and build up more content and features to retain customers.

    I'm not a business major, but it really appears that Cryptic is making an artificial bubble of success for themselves, and that once their customers and fanbase gives up on them, it's gonna collapse, subscribers will disappear, and no one will buy into their next MMO.

    Just a theory. I can only relate what I'll do, and I won't care what their next MMO is, only that, from past experience, it'll be severely lacking in content, with no end game, side quests/activities, and their overworked development teams will be stretched even farther.

    A solid track record leads to future predictions. They could completely surprise me, but do you really believe they will? I'm running outta faith, and I never put much stock in faith in the first place.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zodi-emish wrote:
    you do have a point. ( CO has 30k?)
    I don't know how many it has. I was just using a number. I know CO's subs have dropped over the last few months (many fans were ticked at the fact that CO devs were working on STO rather then needed CO content) but I'm going to assume they're still above break even, which I believe Jack stated was around 50k.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The announcement will be this summer (supposedly):

    http://www.massively.com/2010/05/05/cryptic-to-announce-new-mmo-later-this-summer/

    It'll happen, no reason why they shouldn't put out new games.

    CO has it's own Dev team
    STO has it's own Dev team
    This new one will...wait for it...have it's own Dev team

    Will I be inclined to pre-order their new MMO? I dunno, won't know till I find out more about it. But I didn't care for CO at launch, I think STO is a decent game but still needs a lot of work. So, given the track record for me so far, I highly doubt I'll try their new game at launch. Seems like they need 6 to 12 months of "marinating time" before their games are worth a look-see.

    And before people jump up my TRIBBLE#%, I'm speaking for myself not the whole dang player community.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Well... at least for the OP it is...

    and for all we know... them working on the next MMO could be a design guy, a few art guys making models and textures, and one engine guy starting to make the modifications to the Cryptic Engine needed to get some super alpha test demo of the game working by the end of the year...

    All that being said... I would love to know how many people they still have working on STO...

    Fair enough, and I thought of mentioning this. Announcing a new MMO doesn't mean putting a huge development team into action full time.

    Even if it is on hold, the simple fact that they thought it was feasible irritates me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    Hardly unconfirmed, as has been stated in this thread, thru interviews and press releases.

    The very fact that they are considering it makes me angry. The biggest complaint about STO is the lack of content. Would spreading their resources even thinner on ANOTHER MMO help this situation?

    Absolutely not. They should pool their resources into their existing IPs, and build up more content and features to retain customers.

    I'm not a business major, but it really appears that Cryptic is making an artificial bubble of success for themselves, and that once their customers and fanbase gives up on them, it's gonna collapse, subscribers will disappear, and no one will buy into their next MMO.

    Just a theory. I can only relate what I'll do, and I won't care what their next MMO is, only that, from past experience, it'll be severely lacking in content, with no end game, side quests/activities, and their overworked development teams will be stretched even farther.

    A solid track record leads to future predictions. They could completely surprise me, but do you really believe they will? I'm running outta faith, and I never put much stock in faith in the first place.

    Aren't you assuming the total number of developers are remaining static?

    It seems like they could easily have a 5 man team on the side, prototyping until they secure enough investment capital to hire a full team later on. Most of the Champions team (aside from executives) only worked on Champions. Yes, there was more overlap when a few were brought int temporarily for launch but still - largely separate teams.

    For all we know, the development of the next project is merely the company-wide R&D team that are responsible for major changes that apply to every game they make - or they could be float personnel.

    Add into the fact, they haven't announced a game yet. It'd be a great folly to have a 60 man team working on a game that hasn't been legally hashed-out yet (especially since it appears to be an established franchise).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i dont think a game manufacturer making a new game sometime in the future is reason to panic just yet
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    i dont think a game manufacturer making a new game sometime in the future is reason to panic just yet
    This is almost exactly what I was about to post. I'd be far more worried about them if they didn't have plans to make more MMOs, particularly given their business strategy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The announcement will be this summer (supposedly):

    http://www.massively.com/2010/05/05/cryptic-to-announce-new-mmo-later-this-summer/

    It'll happen, no reason why they shouldn't put out new games.

    CO has it's own Dev team
    STO has it's own Dev team
    This new one will...wait for it...have it's own Dev team

    Will I be inclined to pre-order their new MMO? I dunno, won't know till I find out more about it. But I didn't care for CO at launch, I think STO is a decent game but still needs a lot of work. So, given the track record for me so far, I highly doubt I'll try their new game at launch. Seems like they need 6 to 12 months of "marinating time" before their games are worth a look-see.

    And before people jump up my TRIBBLE#%, I'm speaking for myself not the whole dang player community.

    I guess the question then is: If they have the budget to HIRE an entirely new team (which I sincerely doubt: both the money and hiring an entire new development team), then do you think that the company you're putting money into is looking out for your interests as a customer? Wouldn't the thousands of current subscribers be better served by hiring more employees to work on the games they already have (which you admit are lacking)?

    Wouldn't it make you mad if all that money you "invested," and, let's not mince words, you're investing in this company by paying subscriptions and buying C-points, and they turned around and put major capital into ANOTHER game, leaving their brand new one "unfinished?"

    It does not inspire confidence. And for that, they will lose more customers than they will gain.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    Fair enough, and I thought of mentioning this. Announcing a new MMO doesn't mean putting a huge development team into action full time.

    Even if it is on hold, the simple fact that they thought it was feasible irritates me.

    A part of it is the hindsight we have now.

    At the time, I'm sure that Jack et al were being a bit too optimistic in what they could accomplish. They might have (erroneously, as we see now) felt that two years would be enough time.

    It took an attempt at an MMO based off of a major franchise -- STO -- to show the industry that a two-year development cycle is not enough time to get sufficient content out the door, and to make and test major thematic and systemic decisions (e.g. death penalty, crafting system, levelling, skills, microtransactions, etc.) (At least for semi-traditional MMOs.) Now that they know, they can hopefully put a bit more thought into their third MMO. Hopefully they haven't signed a two-year-to-release contract with whomever their licensor is for that franchise.

    I'm curious as to the third MMO* but... unless it's something I'm keenly, strongly interested in I'm not going to jump in and invest as much as I did with STO.** As the Klingons say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, prepare for doom...." =)


    * - Again, a Dune MMO would rock! "Im in ur Great House, stealin ur ATOMIIIIIIICS!" They could also do worse than a Dresden Files MMO. I would say an Avatar MMO except the movie came out long after they started the Third's development. But based on the concept art, it's possibly Call of Cthulhu.
    *** - At least until it's had a chance to marinate and build up sufficient content....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    They are not making another MMO - yet.

    There's been a rumor out for over a year that they're developing a NWN MMO. Nothing has solidified.

    If you have further information, it'd be great to share what this other MMO is.

    (Concept art doesn't mean they're working on a new MMO yet either).

    It's more than just rumor. Both Roper and Emmert have noted that there is a third, unrevealed, project they are designing. What that project is ... is rumor. That the project exists, has been posted about.

    The biggest rumor I heard was ... it's Hogwarts Online.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    I guess the question then is: If they have the budget to HIRE an entirely new team (which I sincerely doubt: both the money and hiring an entire new development team), then do you think that the company you're putting money into is looking out for your interests as a customer? Wouldn't the thousands of current subscribers be better served by hiring more employees to work on the games they already have (which you admit are lacking)?

    Wouldn't it make you mad if all that money you "invested," and, let's not mince words, you're investing in this company by paying subscriptions and buying C-points, and they turned around and put major capital into ANOTHER game, leaving their brand new one "unfinished?"

    It does not inspire confidence. And for that, they will lose more customers than they will gain.

    Most MMO developers cut their staff dramatically after launch. STO has remained the same size. They could've cut it (as is practice) but are maintaining the time size for the forseeable future.

    That said, hiring a few people to begin hashing out ideas for another mmo is good business (especially if they've learned lessons about longer development time frames - i.e. going for a full 2 years instead of sub-2 years).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    I guess the question then is: If they have the budget to HIRE an entirely new team (which I sincerely doubt: both the money and hiring an entire new development team), then do you think that the company you're putting money into is looking out for your interests as a customer? Wouldn't the thousands of current subscribers be better served by hiring more employees to work on the games they already have (which you admit are lacking)?

    Wouldn't it make you mad if all that money you "invested," and, let's not mince words, you're investing in this company by paying subscriptions and buying C-points, and they turned around and put major capital into ANOTHER game, leaving their brand new one "unfinished?"

    It does not inspire confidence. And for that, they will lose more customers than they will gain.
    I think your argument is tenuous at best. Judging from all of the current amount of content and tech that's being developed, how could STO not have their own dev team? How could a non-dedicated dev team crank all that stuff out in such a short amount of time?

    That's not to say that the situation may not change in a couple of years, but it certainly doesn't look to me that the current dev team will be moving on to other projects, not with the heap of work lined up between now and Season 3+.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I wonder if any studio has ever developed two MMOs at the same time and that is the basis for all of Cryptic's failures?

    Maybe they should of dropped CO when they lost the Marvel (? I think) support and saw Star Trek coming up. Instead they got a different supporter and one most people have never heard of (Seriously? Had anyone heard of the Champions universe before then?). And decided to grab the Star Trek IP as well.

    To me it sounds like the team they had for getting IPs was a little overzealous, and they bit off more than they could chew.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Cryptic makes games. Isn't it reasonable that they be allowed to make games? Whether it is an MMO or something else, it is Cryptics right to make whatever they want and as many of whatever they want. It doesn't reflect baddly on any of their current IP's nor does it mean less going to either. In fact, it may mean MORE going into those IP's as more cash streams means more funds for future development. I think a new IP is a good thing....even if I might not partake. Not that I don't like Cryptic's games.....just that I am over extended in the gaming department now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Arzak13 wrote: »
    I wonder if any studio has ever developed two MMOs at the same time and that is the basis for all of Cryptic's failures?

    Maybe they should of dropped CO when they lost the Marvel (? I think) support and saw Star Trek coming up. Instead they got a different supporter and one most people have never heard of (Seriously? Had anyone heard of the Champions universe before then?). And decided to grab the Star Trek IP as well.

    To me it sounds like the team they had for getting IPs was a little overzealous, and they bit off more than they could chew.

    Turbine launched two games with a a year of each other (~9 months): DDO:SO and LOTRO. They also had another two games at the time: AC and AC2.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Arzak13 wrote: »
    I wonder if any studio has ever developed two MMOs at the same time and that is the basis for all of Cryptic's failures?

    Maybe they should of dropped CO when they lost the Marvel (? I think) support and saw Star Trek coming up. Instead they got a different supporter and one most people have never heard of (Seriously? Had anyone heard of the Champions universe before then?). And decided to grab the Star Trek IP as well.

    To me it sounds like the team they had for getting IPs was a little overzealous, and they bit off more than they could chew.

    DDO and LOTRO. Both had overlapping development cycles. I am pretty sure there have been others as well. And yes, Champions is as well know IP in certian comics circles. Probably not a "mainline" here in the states as in Europe. I would contine to play Champions as I like that game better then CoX but as I mentioned in another thread, I am a little spread thin on games right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Otheym81 wrote: »
    I guess the question then is: If they have the budget to HIRE an entirely new team (which I sincerely doubt: both the money and hiring an entire new development team), then do you think that the company you're putting money into is looking out for your interests as a customer? Wouldn't the thousands of current subscribers be better served by hiring more employees to work on the games they already have (which you admit are lacking)?

    Wouldn't it make you mad if all that money you "invested," and, let's not mince words, you're investing in this company by paying subscriptions and buying C-points, and they turned around and put major capital into ANOTHER game, leaving their brand new one "unfinished?"

    It does not inspire confidence. And for that, they will lose more customers than they will gain.

    You're creating a false dichotomy that they're either spending their money improving STO or they're spending it on a new game. They can do both, and a new game would almost certainly require a loan or venture capital of some kind that wouldn't be available otherwise. What's more, a new game means more investment in their core tech, which means improvements for all of their games.
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