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ATTN DEVS: Can we have a Seamless Sector Space?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Just as the title says, can we have a seamless sector space? I don't see this as impossible, since granted that you guys can mold the shards together to where maxing out one large shard holding more than the allowed users to make this game a more 'true' MMO experience.

Many reviews have complained about this, as how space isn't the great unknown....just boxes. If we can have one large server devoted to a massive scale sector space, it would (to me) make the game feel more like what Star Trek is...to boldly go where no one has gone before.

I would LOVE to hear some or ANY feedback from the devs of a possibility for such a change? Thanks.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    angeluztb wrote: »
    Just as the title says, can we have a seamless sector space? I don't see this as impossible, since granted that you guys can mold the shards together to where maxing out one large shard holding more than the allowed users to make this game a more 'true' MMO experience.

    Many reviews have complained about this, as how space isn't the great unknown....just boxes. If we can have one large server devoted to a massive scale sector space, it would (to me) make the game feel more like what Star Trek is...to boldly go where no one has gone before.

    I would LOVE to hear some or ANY feedback from the devs of a possibility for such a change? Thanks.

    been suggested many times before, and I even brought it up at one point, too... will it happen? probably not.. =(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    angeluztb wrote: »
    Just as the title says, can we have a seamless sector space? I don't see this as impossible, since granted that you guys can mold the shards together to where maxing out one large shard holding more than the allowed users to make this game a more 'true' MMO experience.

    Many reviews have complained about this, as how space isn't the great unknown....just boxes. If we can have one large server devoted to a massive scale sector space, it would (to me) make the game feel more like what Star Trek is...to boldly go where no one has gone before.

    I would LOVE to hear some or ANY feedback from the devs of a possibility for such a change? Thanks.

    This wouldn't be feasible with the engine's current model for bandwidth per shard, etc. and devs have shot it down.

    You likely could eliminate the loadscreens/blocks if you just controlled the ship from your bridge.

    The issue with that is that the devs designed sector space as the game's one true social hub. You may think they missed the mark on that and I'd be inclined to agree, personally, but the last I heard, their longterm plan was to make sector space look better, not eliminate load screens or add bridge control.

    Personally, I would prefer strongly if they made navigation bridge control based and came up with alternate approaches to social hubs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    angeluztb wrote: »
    Just as the title says, can we have a seamless sector space? I don't see this as impossible, since granted that you guys can mold the shards together to where maxing out one large shard holding more than the allowed users to make this game a more 'true' MMO experience.

    Many reviews have complained about this, as how space isn't the great unknown....just boxes. If we can have one large server devoted to a massive scale sector space, it would (to me) make the game feel more like what Star Trek is...to boldly go where no one has gone before.

    I would LOVE to hear some or ANY feedback from the devs of a possibility for such a change? Thanks.

    Amazing, really.

    To date, NOBODY has succeeded in making a truly instancelessMMO of any real size. NOBODY. The onlyones that tried found out that because of the limitations of current hardware, it simply wasn't possible and went for a instanced system instead - inevitably angering people like yourself that don't realize what a truly massive undertaking that is;.

    Whether it be masked by hiccups, loading screens, etc - ALL GAMES ARE INSTANCED. Even WoW is - you just don't notice the breaks due to some intelligent preloading. Let the servers get laggy, and it gets REAL noticeable.

    Yet people natter on, not realizing the requirements for such a thing. Tell ya what, when gigaquad processors become the norm, and RAM can be installed in terabytes - THEN talk about doing this. Not before - the bansdwidth to do this on a multiplayer basis just doesn't exist at the current time.

    Hell, the last SINGLEPLAYER game that tried it was Ultima IX onthe PC, and Metroid Prime on the consoles - and both of them had laoding screens to mask what they were doing as well (for Metroid Prime, it was the elevator sequences). Ultima IX was premature - and a utter disaster.

    I suggest you study the requirements for making a basic MMO - one designed for (say) 3,000 simultaneous connectiopns (which in modern-day terms is really small). Do the calculations as to how poerful that server would need to be, to keep track of those 2000 people without any instancing. See how big a playground you can make, and watch it shrink as you add objects to it.

    Then, come back here and try to suggest it intelligently, with some real concept of what goes on. (Just FYI - the world map in such a game would need to be held entirely within ONE SERVER's MEMORY SPACE - if you try to break it up between blades on a blade server, by definition YOU ARE INSTANCING, as you hand off player information between blades).

    Again, get a clue before you ask for the impossible. Impossible with today's tech, anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Callasan wrote: »
    Amazing, really.

    To date, NOBODY has succeeded in making a truly instancelessMMO of any real size. NOBODY.

    Hi.

    World of Warcraft.

    EVE Online.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    Hi.

    World of Warcraft.

    So you never saw a loading screen if you travelled from azeroth to kalimdor, interresting? Also you could count the model of many different servers to split up the community as instancing. Sure, their instances are theoretically a lot bigger than the instances in STO, but if you have ever experiencend 100+ people gathered together on the same point, then you could have seen how well WoW could handle that (not very well - have you seen the AQ openening event on your server?).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Kelteel wrote: »
    So you never saw a loading screen if you travelled from azeroth to kalimdor, interresting?

    sure, but if WoW was made by Cryptic, you'd have a loading screen going between every single "area" on each continent, every time you went into a building in each area - a new loading screen.

    WoW is as seamless as it gets, STO is probably the complete opposite.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Bridge navigation with a timer would require loading less instances. You could only have to load one when warping out of a sector (you load the bridge) and then one when warping into a sector. In the meantime, you'd be on your bridge.

    The one thing that's missing to make that work is how to force people to be social and feel like they're part of a persistant world while on their ship in transit.

    The best solution I can think of might not entirely cut back on load screens but my idea is:

    You warp out.

    You're on your bridge.

    You tell the helm to set a course for a SECTOR BLOCK.

    A travel timer engages. At the end of the travel timer, you get an option to return to tactical view.

    You emerge in sector space in the destination block.

    This way, you do get enemy signal contacts while en route to a planet and see other players once you arrive at a sector block but you avoid multiple load screens when crossing multiple sector blocks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    angeluztb wrote: »
    Just as the title says, can we have a seamless sector space? I don't see this as impossible, since granted that you guys can mold the shards together to where maxing out one large shard holding more than the allowed users to make this game a more 'true' MMO experience.

    Many reviews have complained about this, as how space isn't the great unknown....just boxes. If we can have one large server devoted to a massive scale sector space, it would (to me) make the game feel more like what Star Trek is...to boldly go where no one has gone before.

    I would LOVE to hear some or ANY feedback from the devs of a possibility for such a change? Thanks.

    Not until they raise the maximum numbers of players per instance, as far as I can tell.

    You either get lonely out in space or see a dozen people on the sector map.
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    sure, but if WoW was made by Cryptic, you'd have a loading screen going between every single "area" on each continent, every time you went into a building in each area - a new loading screen.

    WoW is as seamless as it gets, STO is probably the complete opposite.

    WoW also doesn't support 100k per server - or cost an arm and a leg in energy costs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    WoW also doesn't support 100k per server - or cost an arm and a leg in energy costs. If WoW had 100+ people gathered in the same instance, you'd have server chaos (like Ironforge lag).

    WoW has more people per area than STO. I've never seen more than 40-47 people in a single instance ever. I played on a large population WoW server, and there was at least 100 people in the Orc captial city Orgrimmar at peak times, and the game ran fine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    WoW has more people per area than STO. I've never seen more than 40-47 people in a single instance ever. I played on a large population WoW server, and there was at least 100 people in the Orc captial city Orgrimmar at peak times, and the game ran fine.
    True. I retract my claim.

    However, it can afford these luxuries as the server population cap is under 1/10th of STO's single-server population. For each person you add, it goes up almost exponentially. Thus, 1/10th of the population will not equal 10 times the number of people in an instance.

    I'll give credit to Blizzard - they learned how to fix the lag problems quick after all those refunds during the first month after launch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Callasan wrote: »
    Amazing, really.

    To date, NOBODY has succeeded in making a truly instancelessMMO of any real size. NOBODY. The onlyones that tried found out that because of the limitations of current hardware, it simply wasn't possible and went for a instanced system instead - inevitably angering people like yourself that don't realize what a truly massive undertaking that is;.

    Whether it be masked by hiccups, loading screens, etc - ALL GAMES ARE INSTANCED. Even WoW is - you just don't notice the breaks due to some intelligent preloading. Let the servers get laggy, and it gets REAL noticeable.

    Yet people natter on, not realizing the requirements for such a thing. Tell ya what, when gigaquad processors become the norm, and RAM can be installed in terabytes - THEN talk about doing this. Not before - the bansdwidth to do this on a multiplayer basis just doesn't exist at the current time.

    Hell, the last SINGLEPLAYER game that tried it was Ultima IX onthe PC, and Metroid Prime on the consoles - and both of them had laoding screens to mask what they were doing as well (for Metroid Prime, it was the elevator sequences). Ultima IX was premature - and a utter disaster.

    I suggest you study the requirements for making a basic MMO - one designed for (say) 3,000 simultaneous connectiopns (which in modern-day terms is really small). Do the calculations as to how poerful that server would need to be, to keep track of those 2000 people without any instancing. See how big a playground you can make, and watch it shrink as you add objects to it.

    Then, come back here and try to suggest it intelligently, with some real concept of what goes on. (Just FYI - the world map in such a game would need to be held entirely within ONE SERVER's MEMORY SPACE - if you try to break it up between blades on a blade server, by definition YOU ARE INSTANCING, as you hand off player information between blades).

    Again, get a clue before you ask for the impossible. Impossible with today's tech, anyway.

    I agree with some of your points, but to call me out like as if I have not played any other MMO besides STO.... I have played WoW, LOTRO, SWG, EVE and FFXI. My main request was really in regards to how an old and still popular mmo like FFXI continues to have one server w/o a loading screen from place to place or events; sure they have 30 servers, with each holding over 10k-300k population, but they have a very successful model of a united world of players regardless of realtime regions. Do try it sometime, it's a much different mmo than WoW and many others out there.

    But really, it's not that I'm being ignorant of their game engine, I mean, I've been supporting them since CB. Just would prefer a more solid and connected feel with many other players instead of be jaded apart. Though I still love the instance system to give us more cinematic feel of Star Trek--again my only plea is Sector Space and then perhaps having a PVP that is more engaging over dominionship specific sectors/systems.

    Please DEVS, love to hear some or any input on this, please.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I don't think they have the tech to do this. All their MMOs are heavily zoned. CoX and CO are very closed in.

    I would however love to see them make Sector Space more like the Exploration areas. Lower the distance you can see other players, systems, and enemy contacts. Remove annoyingly huge solar system icons. Add options to hide the grid, or remove the walls and just have a popup telling people that we've entered deep space which would be empty (like what you get when you go to far in a system map).

    I also think they could easily increase the size of zones by 2-3 times, as there is not much there being rendered.

    If they did some/all of this it would make it a lot less ugly and claustrophobic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    Hi.

    World of Warcraft.

    EVE Online.

    Hate to break it to you, but the lands of sword and sorcery in WoW are giant boxes too. They're just larger than the sector space here.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Arzak13 wrote: »
    I don't think they have the tech to do this.

    I wouldn't say that's true. I imagine they could make larger "boxes" in the game, but they may have to put less people into them at a time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Callasan wrote: »
    To date, NOBODY has succeeded in making a truly instancelessMMO of any real size. NOBODY.

    Darkfall I believe is totally zoneless, I didn't play it long so I'm not sure.

    Asheron's Call was mostly zoneless, it had a huge huge landmass and zero zones between the areas. It did however have zoning to go into dungeons and such.

    World of Warcraft does have zones between each landmass, but that's only 4 zones total, and WoW is pretty big. Tons of instances of course which are zoned.

    So, while I wouldn't expect a totally seamless game, Cryptic really didn't even try. In my opinion of course.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In my opinion, I think they should increase the population limits in social area's, but sector space should remain as it is..... population wise. I dont want to see hundreds of federation ships in space unless it is a fleet battle.

    But im pleased with the game for now, only because I have just noticed I can turn that stupid shield indicator ring off. Makes it more of a challenge with the advanced mode.

    They just need to keep adding to the game.....

    I do think all ships and new bridges that you can get from c-store should be attainable in game aswell.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I wouldn't say that's true. I imagine they could make larger "boxes" in the game, but they may have to put less people into them at a time.

    When I say they don't have the tech. I mean the company, not the world. Cryptic would need to hire new people who knew how to do it probably.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    WoW has more people per area than STO. I've never seen more than 40-47 people in a single instance ever. I played on a large population WoW server, and there was at least 100 people in the Orc captial city Orgrimmar at peak times, and the game ran fine.

    WoW also has far less detail in terms of higher end texturing and lighting/shadows/reflections etc. This is a tradeoff for allowing larger instances... silly cartoony graphics with big zones or far more robust detail with smaller zones.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Arzak13 wrote: »
    Darkfall I believe is totally zoneless, I didn't play it long so I'm not sure.

    Asheron's Call was mostly zoneless, it had a huge huge landmass and zero zones between the areas. It did however have zoning to go into dungeons and such.

    World of Warcraft does have zones between each landmass, but that's only 4 zones total, and WoW is pretty big. Tons of instances of course which are zoned.

    So, while I wouldn't expect a totally seamless game, Cryptic really didn't even try. In my opinion of course.

    Thats true, I would have loved a seamless game but this is what we have.... Maybe in another 10 or 20 years someone will make a real Star Trek MMO...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    USSDelphin wrote:
    Thats true, I would have loved a seamless game but this is what we have.... Maybe in another 10 or 20 years someone will make a real Star Trek MMO...

    Or maybe we'll get contacted by Vulcans and start a real Star Trek world. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I can see social hub pathing being an issue (at least interior-wise). Imagine 100 people at sol (ten times as many per map) - not only would there be more bandwidth consumption (as its 100 people connecting uses FAR more bandwidth than 10 instances of 10 people). There's also the performance impact that 100 people would have (unless there's more noticeable character "popping" as in WoW).

    Possible but let's not forget WoW's Ironforge Lag - more tech will be needed in STO to support this (while acknowledging that the entire server must support far more players than WoW does).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I think they could find a way to get this done. Given the time and resources. Maybe instead of shards they could just make a super shard where all of us, and our info is held.

    Or this "super shard" could have a process where it loads up needed charcaters from a seperate dedicated shard that holds all of our info and releases it to the "active" shard on demand.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Arzak13 wrote: »
    I would however love to see them make Sector Space more like the Exploration areas. Lower the distance you can see other players, systems, and enemy contacts. Remove annoyingly huge solar system icons. Add options to hide the grid, or remove the walls and just have a popup telling people that we've entered deep space which would be empty (like what you get when you go to far in a system map).

    I also think they could easily increase the size of zones by 2-3 times, as there is not much there being rendered.

    If they did some/all of this it would make it a lot less ugly and claustrophobic.


    Your idea is intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

    Sounds like a great idea. I like the idea of bridge control better masking all the sector transitions, turbolifts masking the in-ship transitions, etc kinda like the big sandbox games like GTA.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Uxi wrote: »
    Your idea is intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

    Sounds like a great idea. I like the idea of bridge control better masking all the sector transitions, turbolifts masking the in-ship transitions, etc kinda like the big sandbox games like GTA.

    I too agree with his idea; it's simple and can be done (as the devs have said that they 'might' release a UI toggle where we can control what we don't like about Sector space).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    you got to remember that cryptics games are designed for the xbox 360 thats why they are heavily instanced and quite small in terms of area.

    once you realise this it makes a lot more sence to the group sizing small zones and such. the thing is though that the champs online maps are huge compared to sto i mean pretty mamoth insize although there are only 5 zones might be 6 now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I don't mind sector space too much; but sometimes I wonder why they aren't a little bigger. I could see them combining some of them, like regulus and sirius, etc. Right now, they're a little too small and fragmented.

    As for WoW being better instance wise... It's a farse. Because at the end of the day you can't play with your friends who started up without you knowing, unless someone pays to transfer. It's "instancing" is done via separate game servers and clusters.

    STOs is done via load screens.

    It's a trade off. You'll never have to ask your friend playing STO "Oh hey what server do you play on?" That's a non-issue.

    And it's better than WoW's design, if you ask me. I'll take 3 seconds to load every 10 minutes or so over never playing with my friends. I still can't play with some of my best friends because they simply rolled a different server. Sure I could pay the money, or they could, but you leave behind a lot transferring if each of you is well established. It's just a dumb predicament.

    You guys are lucky to have the fortune of well written software these days. The amount of work that goes into making games like WoW and STO play the way they do is tremendous. Though it seems you arm chair think tanks always have thought of something we haven't =)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Oh Ye Ghods, give me patiece with people who have no clue...
    Intrepidox wrote: »
    Hi.

    World of Warcraft.

    Is indeed instanced - each continent has it's own "instance", and the transition points are the SHIPS/TELEPORTERS. Heck, even in-game the raid encounters are "instances".

    In a seamless overworld, there'd be no need for the ships in Azeroth. Try again.
    EVE Online.

    EvE? Don't make me laugh - each system is it's own instance - that's why one (or several) systems can go down and the rest of the game stays up..the transitions are the GATES, for cryin' out loud.

    If EvE was truly seamless, there'd be no need for the gates OR for deadspaces.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    maybe since STO won't be on consoles anymore they'll change the sizes and scopes of the sector blocks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    maybe since STO won't be on consoles anymore they'll change the sizes and scopes of the sector blocks.

    I really hope so; especially since that it's pretty much a fact now that it wont be porting to the consoles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    In WOW when you went to Lagarand, oh my bad Dalaran in Northrend the lag was so bad I avoided it like the plague to many people in a very confined space...
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