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How to slow down fights and increase general fun

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited May 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Let's face it guys. The current state of combat with huge DPS that can kill in seconds is just wrong. there is no fun in that. No fun for the dead guy and no fun for the attacker. We need to ask for a slower pace of combat. This is how i think this should be achieved:
1. Don't nerf base DPS (weapon attributes) - leave it as it is
2. Decrease bonuses applied to DPS by power level settings (100% should not mean double the damage, 0 should not mean 0 damage - we need a modified curve that diminushes bonuses as the power reaches max as well as a minimum dmg value even if power is near 0). Right now weapons is by far the most important power system in PVP and that forces players into cookie cutter strategies. We need to encourage different viable approaches to combat that do not penalize / buff at outrageous levels.
3. Investigate Skill buffs to damage and nerf where appropriate (maybe just play with some global cooldowns so that stacking of bonuses is not an option)
4. Hugely increase hull and shield values on all ships
5. Decrease shield regeneration rate (power level buff, skills buffs etc.) in combat thus making it a viable tactical option to bring down an opponent shield facing and try to continue to pound on that vulnerable zone. This will create very interesting dances as one opponent tries to hit the weaker area while the other tries to turn a healthier one into battle. (Remember Starfleet Command series)

Those steps would make combat a whole lot of fun and will draw people to PVP and the game. The current system just alienates most of the players and seems to appeal only to a small base of hardcore spoiled brats that like to feel all 1337 and superior when they pop someone up in 2 seconds with their amazing skillz. They will be the only one left in the PVP arenas shortly if something does not change.

Feedback and thoughts welcome.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I disagree that fights need to be slowed down or that that will increase general fun.
    Yes escorts can do a lot of damage but a good cruiser or sci ship that knows how to play can stay a live for a long time with an escort attacking them. Its when groups of ships attack that the real fast deaths occur.

    So I recommend not attacking groups of ships unless you have a group of ships with you.
    I recommend if you play a cruiser you keep your shield energy high like 100.
    I recommend that if you are an escort you learn to use speed to get the hell out of dodge when you start to get pounded.
    I recommend grouping with healers and crowd control.

    If they do what you want then escorts will be a total waste and battles will be boring beam wars for way to long.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I'm not a huge fan of the pace of space battles right now. I don't think they captured the naval battle/tall ship feel they were supposedly going for when I was reading all of those prerelease notes. Right now it feels more like the battles are about who can spam whatever key triggers whatever ability the fastest.

    I do wonder why damage buffs seem to stack but resistance diminishes so rapidly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I would imagine the attackers are having some fun...................

    but I don't see how slowing down combat would help completely, without addressing the ability to chain so many powers together.
    Mainly though your post only comes at a solution by gimping DPS, and that only solves half the issue.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Andor wrote: »
    I disagree that fights need to be slowed down or that that will increase general fun.
    Yes escorts can do a lot of damage but a good cruiser or sci ship that knows how to play can stay a live for a long time with an escort attacking them. Its when groups of ships attack that the real fast deaths occur.

    So I recommend not attacking groups of ships unless you have a group of ships with you.
    I recommend if you play a cruiser you keep your shield energy high like 100.
    I recommend that if you are an escort you learn to use speed to get the hell out of dodge when you start to get pounded.
    I recommend grouping with healers and crowd control.

    If they do what you want then escorts will be a total waste and battles will be boring beam wars for way to long.
    Why do some quickly jump to the conclusion that if you are not happy with the current mechanics then you must be a "bad player" that needs to "learn to play the game" like the 1337 ones. I do fine on my own with the current system, thank you. I know what to do to keep myself alive. Needing to carry an "I'm invulnerable" skill with me all the time so i can survive a few seconds does not meet my definition of fun.
    Does it meet yours?

    P.S. The game is supposed to be playable by all not just "Good captains". Not necessarily winnable but at least playable. Right now it's not. It's an exercise in frustration for everyone who does not optimize it's build like hell. The game should be fun even for the losing side.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    AdiZanescu wrote:
    rant
    I think actually the game could be better with lower dmg output.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zorena wrote:
    I think actually the game could be better with lower dmg output.

    Whilst your vision of what the game should or could be is correct in my opinion. The changes so far expressed in this thread do not treat the actual cause of the extreme DPS output.

    What is actually causing the high damage numbers that become inherently impossible or near impossible to heal through or survive is actually crits.

    As I'm sure you are aware, the damage from the actual crit is based on crit severity modifying the base or buffed damage of a weapon(s).

    Therefore, since the main underlying problem is in fact escorts, and escorts are the only ship class (as well as klingon equivalents) that rely on crits for their burst damage which is also their main form of survivability. Reducing everyone's innate crit severity greatly, would mainly have an impact on escorts and minimal impact on other ship types. This would actually be the treatment needed, and it would give more time for survival abilities to be used that other ship types rely on.

    However in any measurable change toward balance, a multi-pronged effort would have to be engaged.
    In context, what I mean by this is including the crit severity reduction, the following would also need to be done at the same time:

    Fix or removal of SNB: Currently in a buff based game, the status of this newly changed ability is game-breaking and a science officer in an escort is more deadly than a tactical officer in an escort.
    With that in mind, a science officer in any ship type is deadlier than any other officer type in any ship role.
    The science officer population was already near half the game population whole, now because of the change it is increasing further. This would solve another problem as the min/maxer community and/or the community looking to have the most powerful ability(ies) in game would no longer feel required to play sci officer. So therefore increasing the diversity in class type played, would increase balance in of itself.
    With more pure tanks for instance (eng/cruiser) and less science/whatever ship, or tac/whatever ship, there would be less of a problem with battles being to quick.

    Another thing that would need to be done, is a fix for defense. Since the crit severity an instant gratification for escorts killing fast as their main survivability tool when defense should be, than lowering such would need to make what their main form should be fixed and made viable.
    Escorts are quick and should be hard to hit, this would also bring more balance as it further increases the usefulness of other abilities such as Tractor beam, targeting engines, VM (when it works).
    Fixing defense would probably require that the actual % modifier is being used in the to hit equation, and everyones innate accuracy would also need to be reduced greatly.

    In retrospect as well, Dual cannons are lackluster currently in comparison to their instant gratifying brother, the Dual Heavy cannons. I believe with all of the changes above Dual Cannons should also further gain an additional innate of having +2% to crit chance.

    At the same time I would increase the global cooldown on RSP, and for engineer consoles that are based on adding hull resists. Should be removed from being engineer type consoles and a new set of console slots should be added to all ships for this consoles alone.
    Cruisers ofc would have the most, like T5 could have 4. T5 sci could have 2, and T5 escorts could have only 1. For klings, BCs would have 3, Carrier would have 2, Raptors 1, and BoPs would have none due to their already obvious advantages.

    With these new console slots (just like hangar bays on carriers) it would even further increase the survivability of ships, but not too much since all weapons see an increase in effectiveness when hitting hull over shields anyway, not counting there are also diminishing returns in place.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It's only fast if you have a decked out BoP / Raptor / Escort targeting you.

    It takes a long time for Sci and Cruisers to kill each other for the most part.


    I think I saw a Dev talking about fixing the damage modifier that is applied to arc bonuses with DC and DHC.

    DC and DHC is where the "OMFG I BLEW UP INSTANTLY" issue complaint arises the most.


    You slow down Sci or Cruiser damage and you're going to absolutely implode the game lol.

    SUSTAINED damage is ok but BURST damage is meager at best unless you get a nice HYT crit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    LOL, have any of you ever thought it is not skills that kill ppl but the skill of the ppl fighting. I see Feds crying over Klingons all the time. I love to fight Klingons, they are not overpowered you just have to know how to fight them.

    I love posts about things like nerf FBP.. OMG if FBP is killing you stop shooting that target....!!!!!
    Omg i ran into 7 ships and tried to kill them, they all shot me i died, NERF dps. Plz folks some of us PVP all the time it is all we do and most of us have fun doing it. We do it well and do not think anything needs nerfing or changing.

    Those of us who do pvp a ton do feel we need some more/better maps and goals. Ppl who pvp all the time, know how to use what they have, know how to get themselvs out of trouble and know how to deal with other classes/ships will always do better then the sunday driver pvper.

    Heck i die in pvp, not over things being overpower, but over being out played, cooldowns, mistakes or just getting a bigger pair ( doing something stupid ) then i should have at that moment.

    Calling for nerfs on dps is stupid also.. I have seen cruisers with good pilots hold off 3+ escorts till help came. Know why???... they knew what the heck they where doing.

    Anyways i think slowing down pvp is wrong way to go. Fast paced crazy is awsome. Slow is boring.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zorena wrote:
    I think actually the game could be better with lower dmg output.

    Well, to be fair I think the reasons escorts and BoP seem to be causing the "ZOMG!" damage is because of stacked resist debuffs from multiple targets/effects. If they could work on putting a better diminishing return on resist debuffs I think that would help lessen the burst damage and at least give you time to react.

    Right now, the primary reason I run 2 copies of RSP on my star cruiser is just for when I realize the burst damage is too high, and it just buys me enough time to fire off Rotate Shield Frequency, EPtS, and then HazEmit or ET III if my hull got scorched too badly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Badlander wrote: »
    I have seen cruisers with good pilots hold off 3+ escorts till help came.

    Know why???... they knew what the heck they where doing.

    Why? Because those Escorts were HORRIBLE.


    Any Escort that isn't brain dead (especially THREE OF THEM) can blow up a Cruiser within seconds if the Cruiser blinks for a second.

    Get an Ultime and/or a Xaiver on you and you're done.

    Two Escorts with TSSIII and DHC + CRF forget it. Cruiser is dead INSTANTLY.


    Not that I'm screaming nerf just explaining the mechanics.

    It's a team game remember folks.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ninjaboy wrote: »
    Why? Because those Escorts were HORRIBLE.


    Any Escort that isn't brain dead (especially THREE OF THEM) can blow up a Cruiser within seconds if the Cruiser blinks for a second.

    Get an Ultime and/or a Xaiver on you and you're done.

    Two Escorts with TSSIII and DHC + CRF forget it. Cruiser is dead INSTANTLY.


    Not that I'm screaming nerf just explaining the mechanics.

    It's a team game remember folks.

    Not true i am most of the time top killer, dpser and have run across some awsome cruiser pilots who have made me work for my kill. Also i said good pilots and most good plots won't blink, they my wink at you now and then though :) If the cruiser can survive the first few seconds of a escort or bop burst they can do very well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ninjaboy wrote: »
    Why? Because those Escorts were HORRIBLE.


    Any Escort that isn't brain dead (especially THREE OF THEM) can blow up a Cruiser within seconds if the Cruiser blinks for a second.

    Get an Ultime and/or a Xaiver on you and you're done.

    Two Escorts with TSSIII and DHC + CRF forget it. Cruiser is dead INSTANTLY.


    Not that I'm screaming nerf just explaining the mechanics.

    It's a team game remember folks.

    Whilst Beam Target subsystems are an issue separate all -together.

    Crit severity is the issue here. DCs do not perform in PVP anywhere near as well as DHCs. The escorts need to kill as quick as possible to bring a target down before they feel their own glassyness. DCs are exponentially easier to heal through. It isnt just HY crits either I have seen my DHCs crit with just RF1, and APA, so high it basically shattered the targets chance of survival from there on out.

    Reducing the damage increase from the narrow arc is just another bad way to go about it, like the reputation gained from what they did to SNB. If there is less of a reason to sport low arc weapons, it will just be everyone not only runnin around as scis, but now with only beam arrays and turrets.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    AdiZanescu wrote:
    Why do some quickly jump to the conclusion that if you are not happy with the current mechanics then you must be a "bad player" that needs to "learn to play the game" like the 1337 ones. I do fine on my own with the current system, thank you. I know what to do to keep myself alive. Needing to carry an "I'm invulnerable" skill with me all the time so i can survive a few seconds does not meet my definition of fun.
    Does it meet yours?

    P.S. The game is supposed to be playable by all not just "Good captains". Not necessarily winnable but at least playable. Right now it's not. It's an exercise in frustration for everyone who does not optimize it's build like hell. The game should be fun even for the losing side.

    I didnt assume anything I just put up what I though were some decent recommendations.
    I post for everyone not just the OP and not everyone has learned all the little tricks.

    As for the rest, I disagree, I think I'm allowed to do that. I like the speed of combat as it is. I think if it gets slowed down it will get seriously boring seriously fast. I dont want to spend 30 minutes killing one ship and I dont want to pretend im some naval vessel from the 18th century.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ok good. Let me follow up a little on my initial post. A lot of you say that the problem is escort burst damage. Some say that is fine bc if you take that away from them then they are glass cannons. True. But i advocated increasing survivability for all ships (escorts included). Keep escorts the DPS agile class without forcing everyone go the escort route to stay competitive.
    Some have said that increasing hull/shield will lead to never ending fights. Not true if that is done while keeping the healing buffs low or low enough to not become a "reset to full strength button once i hit it" ability like most are now. No skill should do that just like no skill should kill instantly. If shield/hull regens are kept low enough a fight will eventually come to an end. How fast/slow that is for the devs to test and tweak. The current system is broken IMHO.
    And yes, maybe the crit damage needs to get a look at but that is just one area that needs to be revised. My post did not intent to give an exhaustive set of changes but to set a framework for them so that we can create a more balanced combat mechanic
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Don't worry I'm sure that since the devs are done TRIBBLE the sci class they are going to start focusing on tac now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Ninjaboy wrote: »
    Why? Because those Escorts were HORRIBLE.


    Any Escort that isn't brain dead (especially THREE OF THEM) can blow up a Cruiser within seconds if the Cruiser blinks for a second.

    Get an Ultime and/or a Xaiver on you and you're done.

    Two Escorts with TSSIII and DHC + CRF forget it. Cruiser is dead INSTANTLY.


    Not that I'm screaming nerf just explaining the mechanics.

    It's a team game remember folks.

    Amen brother. The difference between the average escort pilot and the good pilots is night and day. The good ones could probably do twice the burst damage of the average pilot, if not more.

    I've been killed several times by a single escort in less than 5 seconds. Two good ones can blast through Extend Shields 2, and kill another escort in seconds. That's 40% shield resist and 1400 shield health per second on my setup, and they just laughed at it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Sometimes my cruiser gets vaporized in a split second, and sometimes I can tank 2 or 3 escorts or BoPs for a few minutes. The two things which matter most are whether I have an RSP available and whether the escorts/BoPs have SNB and/or resist debuffs available. When it's basically just their raw DPS against my BOff abilities, the fight lasts a really long time. When their abilities are all off cooldown and I've just put Extend Shields on someone, I'm going to be blown to bits in under 3 seconds.

    Personally I'd be happy to take a nerf to RSP if survivability the rest of the time were buffed. Instant kills are no fun no matter what circumstances they occur under. It's not exactly a "L2P" issue, it's just that starships are made of glass, so if your defensive abilities are on cooldown you die.

    If fights drag on too long, then the cooldowns on defensive/healing abilities could be increased to create gaps. There's more ways to tweak combat that goes on for too long than combat which is over instantly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Grignak wrote: »
    Don't worry I'm sure that since the devs are done TRIBBLE the sci class they are going to start focusing on tac now.

    haha sad but entirely true. Escorts will probably get it next.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Grignak wrote: »
    Don't worry I'm sure that since the devs are done TRIBBLE the sci class they are going to start focusing on tac now.

    Yes, us sci players are very upset that the devs blesse...I mean Nerfed us with the SNB-gamebreaking beam.
    Oh please devs stop nerfing us so much. Everytime you do the game gets easie.....I mean harder....so hard I actually have to go about the following recipe to cause disaster for any class or ship:

    Lift 1 finger
    Find hot-key for SNB
    Press down 1 finger on hot-key


    Makes my asthma tingle...

    Oh and just wait if I am wrong about Scis being the dev favorite, (unlikely but possible), than the so called "nerf" you are expecting for escorts will probably be something along the lines of:

    "Fire on My Mark: Reduces targets shield and hull resists by 150%, with a 20% to cause an your ship to ram the nearest friendly."
    or maybe: "The damage increase for smaller firing arcs on DHC and DCs, has been reduced by 20%, at the same time their cooldowns have been cut in half, and both have been giving a base crit chance of 30%"

    Than it will be engineer/cruiser turn:

    "Miracle Worker has had its cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, and it's healing increased"
    or
    "Cruisers now have an innate 50% to hull resists, and hits on the hull heal shield strength"

    ............
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Badlander wrote: »
    Not true i am most of the time top killer, dpser and have run across some awsome cruiser pilots who have made me work for my kill. Also i said good pilots and most good plots won't blink, they my wink at you now and then though :) If the cruiser can survive the first few seconds of a escort or bop burst they can do very well.

    Are you talking about damage over 15mins that is irrelevant (because it's sustained and not burst) or
    BURST DPS that is actually the damage which is most difficult to respond / heal through and kills the target within seconds?

    If you get two fed escorts on a Cruiser using TSSIIIx2 (one each) you're dead 99% of the time without team support unless those two fed escorts are really bad.

    The person I was originally responding to made the claim that he can tank 4 or 5 ships (including escorts) before help arrives.

    I told him that's simply not true unless those players are REALLY bad - which most are lol.

    Cruisers have good SUSTAINED damage over time however they cannot touch actual DPS of an escort that is properly configured.

    Many escorts can actually show up LOWER in overall damage on the end game charts because they KILL their target so quickly resulting in LESS overall damage.

    Whereas the Cruiser will be banging away at the ship for a few minutes before they finally die resulting in MORE sustained damage over time but FAR less burst damage.


    Bad players is why so many people in the PvP forums are so confused.

    So much so that when they actually run up against a player who is halfway knowledgeable they'll scream cheat when they die to him in a few seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I have said it in many other posts and I will say it in this one also do not nerf cannon damage. Make it so that engineering resist consoles stack properly and you increase survivability by allot by just doing that, no one cries that they got nerfed everyone is happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I keep hearing this "bad player" mantra again and again. There are no bad players, ever. There are badly designed game systems. Stop the name calling and let's face the facts. A game is supposed to be fun. This one is not. The sooner we get out of the denial phase and start calling the obvious the best chance we get of the devs listening and maybe we get a great game out of it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    AdiZanescu wrote:
    I keep hearing this "bad player" mantra again and again. There are no bad players, ever. There are badly designed game systems. Stop the name calling and let's face the facts. A game is supposed to be fun. This one is not. The sooner we get out of the denial phase and start calling the obvious the best chance we get of the devs listening and maybe we get a great game out of it.

    Unfortunately, I have to disagree, even though it means agreeing with a poster I normally do no support.

    There are most certainly bad players, This is basically an arcade 3rd person space shooter. If a player equips themself with the best gear and abilities possible but can't even compete with someone with the worst equip and abilities, they are most certainly a bad player. If they run in and attack a ball solo and give the opposing team a free kill (dieing without killing someone themselves), they are a bad player.

    Balance/Balancing the game however should not even factor in skill, or how good or bad a player is. It should factor in concrete evidence, thorough testing from multiple parties, work and re-work of the math involves, whilst looking at all angles possible accessible to the single player.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I'm fairly happy right now cruising around in my fleet escort, blowing stuff up. She's a tough little ship as well, and hyper-impulse engines mean I can zip in and out of battles with ease (speed is life).

    I've just been levelling up my klingon so I've been doing quite a lot of commander level pvp again. Less BO abilities does increase the length of battles. I found that once I reached captain battles are beginning to be over much quicker.

    When you look at the increase of hull and shields between levels, it's eclipsed by the shear amount of damage dhc's can do when you an admiral. I think that the base values for hull and shields for all tier 5 ships should be greatly increased to balance this out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    AdiZanescu wrote:
    I keep hearing this "bad player" mantra again and again. There are no bad players, ever.

    You are living in another reality.

    There are **MANY** VERY Bad Players in this game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My suggestions and opinions of possible solutions.
    1.) Make shield damage type upgrades like (pla), (Dis), etc more potent like 40-50% so instead of just bumping shield values you buff specific defences to very good ranges while being more vulnrable to others and less over all then other shields. (Though I believe a slight overall increase of shield values is needed).
    2.) Make Shields uncritable
    3.) Alter the starship resist system to apply diminishing returns based off benchmarks. Same goes for ground armor and buffs.
    Ex. The first 30% = no diminshing returns
    The 30-40% rates cost twice as much for a single percent and so forth up to a certain point where it will hardcap. And have the resist value have better inpact on crits. Also make the different ship types have different benchmarks so it goes cruiser = best, science, escort = lowest. A slight nerf to some of the resist consoles may be waarented.
    4.) have the shield emitter amplifier console apply a shield resist buff as well as the shield regen.
    5.) Make attack patterns only allow one to be active by a player at a time. so no more of this attack pattern alpha, beta, and omega on all at the same time. Though I think attack pattern delta could use alittle rework to make it more a anti focus fire.
    6.) This is my own personal opinion, but dual cannons and heavy dual need a slight damage nerf as I believe they are far too strong compared to the beam weapons. However that might not be the case if they can find a way of keeping the escorts and cannon users from reaching ungodly damage potential. In my ezperience cannon users can melt shields/hull 2-3 times faster then beams at all times buffed and unbuffed, and make shield buffs practically redundant due to the high damage capacity where as buffs really impact beam performance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    The issue i have with just increasing resists is that it will encourage cookie cutter builds. If survivability is tied to one type of item (eng consoles) then everyone is compelled to wear them thus making it unfeasible to try different load-outs. Survivability (more than a few seconds alive on the battlefield) should be a native trait. Not tied to skills or gear. Skills and gear should just buff that in a ratio of max 20 - 30%. The 20-30 max buff range should be applied to all stats thus making the game less skill dependent and more enjoyable.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    eng consoles are already a contested market with the power level consoles and eps. In order to get good resists your have to make a sacrifice somewhere and the player who does so should be rewarded for it not gimped. also it allows cruisers to have more tank opinions available to them as it should be. I got my cruiser at roughly 20% all around resist and I still get tore up like tissue paper.

    Also I did mention some changed that can be made to shields to increase their performance. also the resist change I mentioned would work better with abilities too. the way diminishing returns is live I can have 40% from consoles and use a 80+ resist polarize hull and only raise the values somewhere around 4% where as my unbuffed resist categories go up 40%. The way I set it up is so even if you used a buff power your likely to get noticeablly more on your pre resist stats then you are now.

    I don't believe it will premote cookie cutter as you can cater your build to the situation.
    Ex. since klingons are fond of the green s@#! you just throw on a disruptor based shield and a few disruptor resist consoles and you should be in good shape to handle their dps. But by the same token your vulnrable to other damage types and aren't as flexible as balanced builds.

    The only problem I have with the natural resist is ships like escorts are already hard enough to kill with beam weapons without having the same innate defencesive capabilities that should be primarily available to the heavier ships. I've often seem cannon weapons from a single ship tear through my 7800 shield with rotate shield frequency (50% resist) and science team 2(30%+ resist) in a mere 2 - 3 seconds, compared to no buffs in 1.5 - 2 seconds. In most cases if a beam user is waling on me that buff combo makes a huge difference in mitagating the damage.

    The Way PvP is now if your facing cannons the only defence is to run away, hope for a extend shield before your too beat up, or RSP. any of the other shield buffs become a general non factor.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Defense and Damage Resistance seems to use a system of diminishing returns and/or having hard caps.
    Damage does not. This leads to problems.

    It doesn't really matter what ship you use or what class you play, you will always set your weapon power to the highest of all the available.

    Things I would change or at least look at.
    1) Defense Cap raised.
    2) Resist Cap raised
    3) Base Accuracy reduced
    4) Come up with diminishing returns for weapon buffs.
    5) Not all energy levels need to be equally important, but there should always be viable choices. For example, the choice Shield vs Weapons should be a valid choice, and the choice between Aux and Engines could be valid, too.

    For example, if boost to weapon damage from weapon energy scales the same way as overall healing/resist from shield energy, choosing between the two makes sense.
    If Aux would increase, say accuracy, and engine power affects defense, these two are also naturally pitted against each other.

    The end goal still has to be that Escorts burst damage before buffs is still high, but buffs don't get them quite as high as before. At the same time, they should have a good defense to increase their survivability, so they can perform multiple strafing runs (and require them to take down "high value" targets like cruisers.)

    The "ideal"* scenario assuming both sides are playing equally well and equally well equipped ships and using their powers equally effective, the scenario should be:
    - Escort vs Escort requires one strafing run - one of them should be dead afterwards. (Sometimes both. ;) )
    - Escort vs Science requires two strafing runs - one of them should be dead afterwards.
    - Escort vs Cruiser requires three strafing runs - one of them should be dead afterwards.

    If the other side isn't actively targeting the Escort, it should survive, of course. Winning initiative can be important in this scenario, so the difference between Klingon and Federation shields/hull and Cloak should balance out.

    Now the above is just the "ratio" for escorts vs everyone. However long a strafing run is projected to last, use that time to determine how long an engagement between science and science and science and cruiser and cruiser vs cruiser takes.
    (If the time for one strafing run from an escort is x, then I guess a fight between science ships should take 3x seconds and a fight between cruisers 5x seconds, a fight science vs cruisers 4x .)

    Of course, I am not convinced Cryptic can actually achieve such ratios, but they might be able to come closer.

    *) not necessarily "ideal" in the sense that is what every player wants, more "ideal" for purposes of theorycraft and number-crunching.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Here's the dilemma -


    #1. Resists currently in the game can be stacked and do work fairly well vs. all damage sources except Escort DHC / DC + buffs and of course the HUGE HYT crits.


    #2. If you increase healing / resists to compensate for the imbalance in burst damage Escorts / Raptors / BoPs currently generate you now have a situation where Sci ships and Cruisers can tank each other (and multiple Cruisers and/or Sci ships) for hours on end. i.e. Sci ship and Cruiser damage ISN'T an issue right now.

    I mean have you ever been in a Cruiser fighting a Sci ship 1v1 who has resists stacked? Or how about Cruiser vs. Cruiser? It is a LOOOONNGGGG fight if the person is halfway decent.


    #3. One logical solution would be to resolve the massive BURST damage that a properly configured Escort ship can do while giving the Escorts something else in return. You can still make them the top dog when it comes to burst dps but bring them back down to reality so they're not doing doing 800-900% more burst energy DPS then everyone else. Also maybe REMOVE Target Shield Subsystems III from the game and make II the max.

    or

    #4. Do nothing at all and let people work as a team to debuff / SNB remove the buffs from the Escorts.




    edit: (note when I say escorts I'm including BoP and Raptors in that group as well)
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