Have cryptic offered an explanation why they can not fix this? Every other game I have played that had guild banks, if this happened, the csrs would look at the logs and either do a roll back, or do a roll back of the character used to rob the items and put them back in the guild bank.
Not sure why cryptic is saying they are not able to do this. Would be nice if they would give us a straight forward answer of either technically they cant and why, or they are just not willing to go through the trouble to do it.
I think they should give us a full answer on this, as this seems to be happening so much lately. In effect they are encouraging it as they dont do anything about it, and they tie peoples hands when it comes to informing the community at large of the shady person.
Actually, the GMs in most MMOs will not do anything about this.
The solution is to not spam zone chat and randomly invite just anyone into your Guild. Or, you could sent the Fleet bank permissions so that new members can't steal from your bank.
After they've been in the guild for awhile, and you've gotten to know them, then you consider giving them permission to access the guild bank. Even then thefts will still happen.
And the Cryptic devs have answered this on these forums. If you read some of the old posts in the dev tracker you'll find that answer. Basically it comes down to; they don't want to have to get involved in a he-said she-said. You gave them permission to access the fleet bank therefore you must have been ok with them accessing the fleet bank. If people abused that permission that's your fault, not Cryptic's.
im not sure how the system works so if this is a bug where people dont have permission but they can take stuff anyway then that is wrong and needs to be fixed.
but if this is because you've given people the ability to access the bank and they have exploited it then really that just part of the game. if you give strangers access to all your items and they take it, then they have not done anything wrong. sure its ethical wrong and annoying but has not broken any 'rules'.
dont give permission to people you dont trust because it will just go wrong.
eve makes a living off cyber thefts like this. many people have the view if it can be done in game its not cheating.
Actually, the GMs in most MMOs will not do anything about this.
The solution is to not spam zone chat and randomly invite just anyone into your Guild. Or, you could sent the Fleet bank permissions so that new members can't steal from your bank.
After they've been in the guild for awhile, and you've gotten to know them, then you consider giving them permission to access the guild bank. Even then thefts will still happen.
And the Cryptic devs have answered this on these forums. If you read some of the old posts in the dev tracker you'll find that answer. Basically it comes down to; they don't want to have to get involved in a he-said she-said. You gave them permission to access the fleet bank therefore you must have been ok with them accessing the fleet bank. If people abused that permission that's your fault, not Cryptic's.
hmm when I played wow this was fixed every time someone ninja looted the guild bank.
As has been dais many times before, if a person cleans out your bank then it's because they had permissions set to d so. The responsibility is yours.
Accusations are not proof. Even logs are not proof. Just because something happened it does not necessarily happen for the reasons or in the manner in which you describe them to the GM.
It is for this reason that GMs will not get involved in bank 'thefts' in this or any other game you play.
If items are stolen as a result of a TRIBBLE account then in this case you may see a roll-back. Only in these cases though.
They don't do it in WOW either. I've been a player since beta. The GM policy is that it's a matter between players and they will not get involved.
Actually when I once gave mats for the arcanite reaper in vanilla wow, the guy logged off, I reported him and got my mats back. Granted thats not a bank issue, long before they were even a thought, but they helped me out.
Banks you have permissions. Its not cryptics fault someone who had permission to take said stuff, actually took said stuff.
I would suggest making only yourself have permissions to access the fleet bank, at least as far as withdrawing credits. For special items, perhaps make one tab only for your access only.
If someone in your fleet needs credits or items they cannot access, you can control it by withdrawing it and giving it to them. That way you control everything thus making ninja looting impossible, except if you ninja it yourself
The moral of the story is, be careful with who you trust. Since a lot of MMO's won't let you publically name & shame on the forums and such, you aren't left with much recourse.
In the future, be less trusting at first. Limit and restrict access to the fleet bank. Don't give every new recruit to your fleet full access, don't hand out tons of free items (while helpful sometimes it gives people the idea that everything is free), etc.
Here's an interesting factoid for you: 'most MMOs' does not mean 'only WoW.'
Last Time i was in EQ and EQ2 they wouldnt do it either.
EQ had came out with Guild halls and Guild Banks about a year before i left. and EQ2 Had them if i remember correctly... but that was a long time ago
Dont see why they have to replace it when we can set permissions. I actualy missed not having a guild bank in eq. i muled the stuff for the guild for years LOL. Had like 4 mules just to handle the guilds stuff. ended up two boxing just to mule my stuff and the guilds stuff LOL
hmm when I played wow this was fixed every time someone ninja looted the guild bank.
Blizzard will only restore if the bank theft is the result of an account being compromised. If it's because you gave a player permission to withdraw stuff from the bank, and they withdrew stuff from the bank, they will not restore it.
The reason they don't replace them is they can't prove that the players wasn't told he could have it. They player can just say he was told on vent he could take it. They had access to it.
If they replaced this stuff that people took when they had access to it. Guilds would start to scam Cryptic to get more loot. Use trail accounts to rob their banks. Trade it to another character. Then get more from Cryptic. No way they could replace it.
whcih is why more limits and stricter limits are needed my question is this:
can any guild bank in any game when someone wants something it prompt the guild master who can say yea or nay?
can you limit new people to what they can get out of the bank?
limit certain people tot the bank only?
if not these things alone can solve people that join a guild just to do that
The MMOs I have played that have multiple bank tabs allow the guild leadership to restrict access to the different tabs based on a member's rank. Many will also allow leadership to restrict the number of items that can be withdrawn each day based on the member's rank. STO fleet bank management could stand to be improved by adding similar options.
Can't stand it when games don't address this and help the people that were taken advantage of, you're basically saying you do not mind players that steal. I think that should be looked down upon by the Devs and the offenders should be made to give the stuff back. What is the community coming to when they blame the victim, and let the criminal off free? I agree that the permissions should be doled out sparingly, but what can you do if a Fleet member that's been around since the start decides to ninja and run? Too bad, I guess, for this community at least.
Two wrongs apparently make a right in this game...
Can't stand it when games don't address this and help the people that were taken advantage of, you're basically saying you do not mind players that steal. I think that should be looked down upon by the Devs and the offenders should be made to give the stuff back. What is the community coming to when they blame the victim, and let the criminal off free? I agree that the permissions should be doled out sparingly, but what can you do if a Fleet member that's been around since the start decides to ninja and run? Too bad, I guess, for this community at least.
Two wrongs apparently make a right in this game...
While I don't condone thievery in any sense (in real life or in games), your example really isn't cut and dry. If a fleet member, that's been around since the start of the fleet, decides to ninja and run, how does Cryptic know that the member didn't feel entitled to the items/credits in compensation for all the time spent with the fleet? Or that it was agreed (with a member that is staying with the fleet) that the member that left could take the items/credits before leaving, and then someone else in the fleet got upset about it and cried theft?
Those are only two situations I can come up with off the top of my head. Ideally, no one would steal from a fleet or guild's bank, but some people will. I'm kind of thankful for playing Eve for the last 3 or so years, because it makes me leery of trusting people when it comes to a group's assets.
I had one guy who would join our corporation, stay about a month or so, and then quit. He did this a couple of times, mainly because I would allow him back in every time (meat shield, ftw). However, he never had access to the corp's wallet, and he only had access to one of the 7 corp hangers (filled with common items that we honestly didn't care if they got stolen or not). Granted, if one of my long-term corpmates did a ninja job on us, it would upset me; however, I'd sigh and chalk it up to a learning experience.
I feel the same way about STO. If I allow a fleet member access to our wallet or tabs, I run the risk of them ganking it all. Again, I hate thieves (one of the three types of people I cannot stand), but I don't see how Cryptic can really do anything about it if the person has the access.
While I don't condone thievery in any sense (in real life or in games), your example really isn't cut and dry. If a fleet member, that's been around since the start of the fleet, decides to ninja and run, how does Cryptic know that the member didn't feel entitled to the items/credits in compensation for all the time spent with the fleet? Or that it was agreed (with a member that is staying with the fleet) that the member that left could take the items/credits before leaving, and then someone else in the fleet got upset about it and cried theft?
Of course there are a million different scenarios, but that still doesn't make the stance of "we're not getting involved" any better. You've probably been playing MMO's as long as I have, and anyone with 1/2 a brain can spot the thief. He takes ALL the cash, and EVERY valuable item. The worst are the "Guild/Fleet Leaders" that do this, the entire guild donates to the guild bank, then the leader takes it all and bolts.
I don't care how many different scenarios are brought up, stealing should not be tolerated by the people who developed this game, and if it is, it's just like I said, they are saying it's o.k. to steal because there are no consequences. It also shouldn't be tolerated by the people who play this game, but here we are, on page 3, full of people blaming the victim.
I don't care how many different scenarios are brought up, stealing should not be tolerated by the people who developed this game, and if it is, it's just like I said, they are saying it's o.k. to steal because there are no consequences. It also shouldn't be tolerated by the people who play this game, but here we are, on page 3, full of people blaming the victim.
there is one slight problem with your argument. its not stealing and they are not victims. if you say to someone feel free to access the bank and im putting no restrictions on what you can take and they take all of it, they have technically done nothing wrong. its the guild leaders responsibility to put restrictions on. sure its not exactly fair play but they have done nothing illegal or broken any rules.
if you hand the keys to your front door to some stranger and say feel free to take anything inside, dont be surprised if they take it all. this may only be a game but the principle are the same.
you cant always trust people to do the honourable thing, thats is why you have to set restrictions, if somebody wants something they should ask it from the fleet leaders, or from selected members. thats what most guilds do.
perhaps some extra restrictions could be added like you can only take two items per day or something
ok since this took a different direction than I intended I will fill in some blanks.
Was a long standing member who was an officer.
We never spammed chat for members.
Restrictions where and are in place...but as he was an officer that didnt help.
There have been lots of posts stating why cryptic doesnt do anything about it. But in reality none of you know. Its all your opinion as to why they probably dont. Not an official statement by them. Thats what I am asking for. An official statement by them.
To those saying no mmo does this...they are wrong. DAoC did. LotRO did. WoW did. Even WAR did. That is several that did. Do all? No Im not trying to say all do.
Im not trying to get cryptic to change their policy...I dont believe I can. I just want to know what the full policy is and why.
The really sad thing is (and I dont know if this is true, just heard this is what happens) that if you let the persons new fleet know what they did, the person can report you for harassment and you can get in trouble.
So that combined with cryptic doing nothing about it combined with not being able to name and shame on forums, encourages people to do it.
To those who say restrict everyone but the GM, I say either you have never run a guild (approve every single withdrawal defeats the purpose of fleet banks) also GMs have been known to take off with it as well. Hence why the mmos I named above can, will and do in some circumstances resolve this issue for the guild at large.
Now there was one person who said they dont do this so guilds dont scam and get extra items. If they do it the way I have heard the other mmos do it, that doesnt happen. The way I have heard other mmos do it, is, they roll back the bank to before the theft and roll back the character that did the theft to the same time (as well as often banning said account for a period of time.)
Anyways. really not looking for opinions or such. Would just like an official statement from cryptic as to why they wont do anything about it.
ok since this took a different direction than I intended I will fill in some blanks.
Was a long standing member who was an officer.
We never spammed chat for members.
Restrictions where and are in place...but as he was an officer that didnt help.
So, he was one of the people who gets to decide how to distribute your bank's loot. Maybe he should open a ticket accusing YOU of bank theft for any items you took before he got there. Should Cryptic ban you if he does?
Actually, the GMs in most MMOs will not do anything about this.
The solution is to not spam zone chat and randomly invite just anyone into your Guild. Or, you could sent the Fleet bank permissions so that new members can't steal from your bank.
After they've been in the guild for awhile, and you've gotten to know them, then you consider giving them permission to access the guild bank. Even then thefts will still happen.
And the Cryptic devs have answered this on these forums. If you read some of the old posts in the dev tracker you'll find that answer. Basically it comes down to; they don't want to have to get involved in a he-said she-said. You gave them permission to access the fleet bank therefore you must have been ok with them accessing the fleet bank. If people abused that permission that's your fault, not Cryptic's.
/agreed.
OP, maybe using the multiple tabs and rank/permissions as intended instead of giving a stranger the keys to your house. Moral of the story, if you will miss it, don't leave it unattended.
Of course there are a million different scenarios, but that still doesn't make the stance of "we're not getting involved" any better. You've probably been playing MMO's as long as I have, and anyone with 1/2 a brain can spot the thief. He takes ALL the cash, and EVERY valuable item. The worst are the "Guild/Fleet Leaders" that do this, the entire guild donates to the guild bank, then the leader takes it all and bolts.
I don't care how many different scenarios are brought up, stealing should not be tolerated by the people who developed this game, and if it is, it's just like I said, they are saying it's o.k. to steal because there are no consequences. It also shouldn't be tolerated by the people who play this game, but here we are, on page 3, full of people blaming the victim.
A serious question, then -- and I'm not asking this to be snarky, if you have a good answer than we all want to hear it -- is this: How do you mediate or judge a case like this? Leaving aside scenarios or What Really Happened for the moment... Is there any possible way to resolve this without relying on he-said/she-said arguments? (Or on character testimony, which pretty much boils down to 'He with the most friends, wins.')
I can understand the frustration when dealing with fleet bank thieves. But unless you lock down the bank tight against everyone, you will run the risk of someone deciding to wipe it out and leave the fleet. The question of restitution or replacement is a far trickier one; in an ideal world, Cryptic GMs could READ YOUR MIND and tell exactly what the intentions were for Suspect A when they emptied out the fleet bank, and then the GM could restore stolen items as need be. But they cannot. And they have neither the time, training, or authority to conduct CSI:Internet-style investigations. And even then, I don't think they would help.
So... yeah. Fleet Bank Thieves suck and should be delt with harshly. But there are reasons why they can't be dellt with as harshly was we would like.
Your idea of a roll back wont fix all situations. There was one fleet leader in here accusing a fleet member of theft. The fleet member put more than a million energy credits into the bank so a tab could be bought. The guild leader. Took over 800,000 out and spent it. He wouldn't say what. He said it was put to good use. The player decided to get back his 400,000 since he was robbed. The guild leader started shaming him in the game because he took back his 400,000 from the money stole from him. They roll everything back put the money back in the fleet bank. The player who was stole from is no longer in the fleet. The thief would have the money.
They have already responded to this saying it's up to the fleet leader to decide how the tabs are maintained. They don't see it as an infraction for someone to take items they have access too.
Comments
The solution is to not spam zone chat and randomly invite just anyone into your Guild. Or, you could sent the Fleet bank permissions so that new members can't steal from your bank.
After they've been in the guild for awhile, and you've gotten to know them, then you consider giving them permission to access the guild bank. Even then thefts will still happen.
And the Cryptic devs have answered this on these forums. If you read some of the old posts in the dev tracker you'll find that answer. Basically it comes down to; they don't want to have to get involved in a he-said she-said. You gave them permission to access the fleet bank therefore you must have been ok with them accessing the fleet bank. If people abused that permission that's your fault, not Cryptic's.
but if this is because you've given people the ability to access the bank and they have exploited it then really that just part of the game. if you give strangers access to all your items and they take it, then they have not done anything wrong. sure its ethical wrong and annoying but has not broken any 'rules'.
dont give permission to people you dont trust because it will just go wrong.
eve makes a living off cyber thefts like this. many people have the view if it can be done in game its not cheating.
hmm when I played wow this was fixed every time someone ninja looted the guild bank.
I dislike ninjas.....especially the 4ft kind in clown shoes.
Accusations are not proof. Even logs are not proof. Just because something happened it does not necessarily happen for the reasons or in the manner in which you describe them to the GM.
It is for this reason that GMs will not get involved in bank 'thefts' in this or any other game you play.
If items are stolen as a result of a TRIBBLE account then in this case you may see a roll-back. Only in these cases though.
Here's an interesting factoid for you: 'most MMOs' does not mean 'only WoW.'
They don't do it in WOW either. I've been a player since beta. The GM policy is that it's a matter between players and they will not get involved.
Actually when I once gave mats for the arcanite reaper in vanilla wow, the guy logged off, I reported him and got my mats back. Granted thats not a bank issue, long before they were even a thought, but they helped me out.
Banks you have permissions. Its not cryptics fault someone who had permission to take said stuff, actually took said stuff.
I would suggest making only yourself have permissions to access the fleet bank, at least as far as withdrawing credits. For special items, perhaps make one tab only for your access only.
If someone in your fleet needs credits or items they cannot access, you can control it by withdrawing it and giving it to them. That way you control everything thus making ninja looting impossible, except if you ninja it yourself
Good luck.
--Cirdi
well since 80% of the MMO population plays wow thats MOST mmos.
In the future, be less trusting at first. Limit and restrict access to the fleet bank. Don't give every new recruit to your fleet full access, don't hand out tons of free items (while helpful sometimes it gives people the idea that everything is free), etc.
Last Time i was in EQ and EQ2 they wouldnt do it either.
EQ had came out with Guild halls and Guild Banks about a year before i left. and EQ2 Had them if i remember correctly... but that was a long time ago
Dont see why they have to replace it when we can set permissions. I actualy missed not having a guild bank in eq. i muled the stuff for the guild for years LOL. Had like 4 mules just to handle the guilds stuff. ended up two boxing just to mule my stuff and the guilds stuff LOL
While WoW may have the greatest number of MMO players, MMO population in 1 game does not equal most MMOs. It's still just 1 MMO.
Blizzard will only restore if the bank theft is the result of an account being compromised. If it's because you gave a player permission to withdraw stuff from the bank, and they withdrew stuff from the bank, they will not restore it.
If they replaced this stuff that people took when they had access to it. Guilds would start to scam Cryptic to get more loot. Use trail accounts to rob their banks. Trade it to another character. Then get more from Cryptic. No way they could replace it.
It's moot anyway, since Blizzard doesn't do what the OP alleges.
80% of MMO players are idiotic twits, and they play WoW.
SOE's policy for their MMOs is that a trade is a trade, and that guild bank withdrawals are trades.
whcih is why more limits and stricter limits are needed my question is this:
can any guild bank in any game when someone wants something it prompt the guild master who can say yea or nay?
can you limit new people to what they can get out of the bank?
limit certain people tot the bank only?
if not these things alone can solve people that join a guild just to do that
The MMOs I have played that have multiple bank tabs allow the guild leadership to restrict access to the different tabs based on a member's rank. Many will also allow leadership to restrict the number of items that can be withdrawn each day based on the member's rank. STO fleet bank management could stand to be improved by adding similar options.
Two wrongs apparently make a right in this game...
While I don't condone thievery in any sense (in real life or in games), your example really isn't cut and dry. If a fleet member, that's been around since the start of the fleet, decides to ninja and run, how does Cryptic know that the member didn't feel entitled to the items/credits in compensation for all the time spent with the fleet? Or that it was agreed (with a member that is staying with the fleet) that the member that left could take the items/credits before leaving, and then someone else in the fleet got upset about it and cried theft?
Those are only two situations I can come up with off the top of my head. Ideally, no one would steal from a fleet or guild's bank, but some people will. I'm kind of thankful for playing Eve for the last 3 or so years, because it makes me leery of trusting people when it comes to a group's assets.
I had one guy who would join our corporation, stay about a month or so, and then quit. He did this a couple of times, mainly because I would allow him back in every time (meat shield, ftw). However, he never had access to the corp's wallet, and he only had access to one of the 7 corp hangers (filled with common items that we honestly didn't care if they got stolen or not). Granted, if one of my long-term corpmates did a ninja job on us, it would upset me; however, I'd sigh and chalk it up to a learning experience.
I feel the same way about STO. If I allow a fleet member access to our wallet or tabs, I run the risk of them ganking it all. Again, I hate thieves (one of the three types of people I cannot stand), but I don't see how Cryptic can really do anything about it if the person has the access.
Of course there are a million different scenarios, but that still doesn't make the stance of "we're not getting involved" any better. You've probably been playing MMO's as long as I have, and anyone with 1/2 a brain can spot the thief. He takes ALL the cash, and EVERY valuable item. The worst are the "Guild/Fleet Leaders" that do this, the entire guild donates to the guild bank, then the leader takes it all and bolts.
I don't care how many different scenarios are brought up, stealing should not be tolerated by the people who developed this game, and if it is, it's just like I said, they are saying it's o.k. to steal because there are no consequences. It also shouldn't be tolerated by the people who play this game, but here we are, on page 3, full of people blaming the victim.
there is one slight problem with your argument. its not stealing and they are not victims. if you say to someone feel free to access the bank and im putting no restrictions on what you can take and they take all of it, they have technically done nothing wrong. its the guild leaders responsibility to put restrictions on. sure its not exactly fair play but they have done nothing illegal or broken any rules.
if you hand the keys to your front door to some stranger and say feel free to take anything inside, dont be surprised if they take it all. this may only be a game but the principle are the same.
you cant always trust people to do the honourable thing, thats is why you have to set restrictions, if somebody wants something they should ask it from the fleet leaders, or from selected members. thats what most guilds do.
perhaps some extra restrictions could be added like you can only take two items per day or something
Was a long standing member who was an officer.
We never spammed chat for members.
Restrictions where and are in place...but as he was an officer that didnt help.
There have been lots of posts stating why cryptic doesnt do anything about it. But in reality none of you know. Its all your opinion as to why they probably dont. Not an official statement by them. Thats what I am asking for. An official statement by them.
To those saying no mmo does this...they are wrong. DAoC did. LotRO did. WoW did. Even WAR did. That is several that did. Do all? No Im not trying to say all do.
Im not trying to get cryptic to change their policy...I dont believe I can. I just want to know what the full policy is and why.
The really sad thing is (and I dont know if this is true, just heard this is what happens) that if you let the persons new fleet know what they did, the person can report you for harassment and you can get in trouble.
So that combined with cryptic doing nothing about it combined with not being able to name and shame on forums, encourages people to do it.
To those who say restrict everyone but the GM, I say either you have never run a guild (approve every single withdrawal defeats the purpose of fleet banks) also GMs have been known to take off with it as well. Hence why the mmos I named above can, will and do in some circumstances resolve this issue for the guild at large.
Now there was one person who said they dont do this so guilds dont scam and get extra items. If they do it the way I have heard the other mmos do it, that doesnt happen. The way I have heard other mmos do it, is, they roll back the bank to before the theft and roll back the character that did the theft to the same time (as well as often banning said account for a period of time.)
Anyways. really not looking for opinions or such. Would just like an official statement from cryptic as to why they wont do anything about it.
So, he was one of the people who gets to decide how to distribute your bank's loot. Maybe he should open a ticket accusing YOU of bank theft for any items you took before he got there. Should Cryptic ban you if he does?
/agreed.
OP, maybe using the multiple tabs and rank/permissions as intended instead of giving a stranger the keys to your house. Moral of the story, if you will miss it, don't leave it unattended.
A serious question, then -- and I'm not asking this to be snarky, if you have a good answer than we all want to hear it -- is this: How do you mediate or judge a case like this? Leaving aside scenarios or What Really Happened for the moment... Is there any possible way to resolve this without relying on he-said/she-said arguments? (Or on character testimony, which pretty much boils down to 'He with the most friends, wins.')
I can understand the frustration when dealing with fleet bank thieves. But unless you lock down the bank tight against everyone, you will run the risk of someone deciding to wipe it out and leave the fleet. The question of restitution or replacement is a far trickier one; in an ideal world, Cryptic GMs could READ YOUR MIND and tell exactly what the intentions were for Suspect A when they emptied out the fleet bank, and then the GM could restore stolen items as need be. But they cannot. And they have neither the time, training, or authority to conduct CSI:Internet-style investigations. And even then, I don't think they would help.
So... yeah. Fleet Bank Thieves suck and should be delt with harshly. But there are reasons why they can't be dellt with as harshly was we would like.
They have already responded to this saying it's up to the fleet leader to decide how the tabs are maintained. They don't see it as an infraction for someone to take items they have access too.