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Ground Combat FAR too Difficult

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I know there are other threads for this, but not nearly enough fuss has been kicked up over this.

I'm not dumb. I can do PvP and STFs very well. I also like the new death penalty, and the injury system. Great idea! :D

Space combat is much improved, and I am really enjoying the challenge. However ground combat, even on advanced mode, is far FAR FAR too difficult.

A Klingon swordmaster can wipe out my enitre party in under five seconds. If you try to solo him, he can kill you before you've even targetted him. THAT CANNOT BE RIGHT. Plus the Klingons are now harder than the Borg. Whats that about???

The ONLY way I have found to complete ground missions now is to just hope that by chance, only lesser enemies will spawn.

Frankly, I'm not enjoying this. I'm just going to avoid ground missions until Cryptic get this sorted.
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I have to agree....Now I find myself avoiding ground missions with alien encounters (just beam back up) or I leave myself set for Advanced only when I'm solo.

    Certain races in ground combat are ridiculously over powered. Someone else posted their combat logs and it showed that the base attack of certain races are 5x that of a fully spec'd (52 in Rifles, Grenades, Martial Arts) Fed Officer.

    +500% more dps!!!! and that was not on Elite.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My science which is the only one I played since the slider has been put in, I can do ground on elite but space elite alone is impossible. If I get autoteamed with another class, elite can be done. I think some classes can do elite space but not ground too well (tactical from what I've seen on the forums) though. I'm thinking engineer might be the one best suited for both depending on the ground kit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Had the exact problem, then I change tactics and now Dakhar Masters die quickly and efficiently.

    The game changed, adjust accordingly and you'll be fine. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Roll a tactical officer, buy her a bat'leth and train her in ground combat skills. Also having pink ponytails helps.

    Then just press 1,2,3 over and over again till you get an expose on the Swordmaster. Switch to an exploit weapon and watch his health disappear.

    This is not me guessing, this me telling you what I did this morning.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    My science which is the only one I played since the slider has been put in, I can do ground on elite but space elite alone is impossible. If I get autoteamed with another class, elite can be done. I think some classes can do elite space but not ground too well (tactical from what I've seen on the forums) though. I'm thinking engineer might be the one best suited for both depending on the ground kit.

    Can you share your build? Or what percentage of points are allocated in ground skills vs space skills?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Blenda wrote:
    Roll a tactical officer, buy her a bat'leth and train her in ground combat skills. Also having pink ponytails helps.

    Then just press 1,2,3 over and over again till you get an expose on the Swordmaster. Switch to an exploit weapon and watch his health disappear.

    This is not me guessing, this me telling you what I did this morning.

    A) How to I survive long enough for an expose to come up?
    B) Exploit no longer kills in one shot
    C) I am NOT creating an alt JUST for ground missions!
    Signalsgt wrote: »
    Had the exact problem, then I change tactics and now Dakhar Masters die quickly and efficiently.

    The game changed, adjust accordingly and you'll be fine. :)
    So what the hell do I do????

    I'm a science officer, specced for healing. This works very well in STFs, so I'd rather not change that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zutty wrote: »
    A) How to I survive long enough for an expose to come up?
    B) Exploit no longer kills in one shot
    C) I am NOT creating an alt, JUST for ground missions!

    So what the hell do I do????

    I'm a science officer, specced for healing. This works very well in STFs, so I'd rather not change that.

    Even better, just get yourself a nice Mk X stun pistol as your secondary weapon. Keep moving around him so your BO's get flanks. He will die.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Signalsgt wrote: »
    Even better, just get yourself a nice Mk X stun pistol as your secondary weapon. Keep moving around him so your BO's get flanks. He will die.

    I have a science BO with a Mk X stun pistol and sensor scan 3, and I ALWAYS focus fire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I havent played any missions since the update but previous to that I always found them a bit too easy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zutty wrote: »
    I have a science BO with a Mk X stun pistol and sensor scan 3, and I ALWAYS focus fire.

    Really?

    I have a Lib Borg and as soon as I swiped a Stun Pistol off my BO and kept him locked down they started dropping like flies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Vaughnn wrote:
    Can you share your build? Or what percentage of points are allocated in ground skills vs space skills?

    Most of my points are in space skills. I go for those first always because the game is mostly space.

    This is my science/cruiser too by the way and not my sci/sci that I am speaking of. Not sure if that should make a difference. But space on Advance is easily doable but space Elite is impossible.

    Actually hit Captain and so far all the Captain skill points spent were in space items and I haven't even put one on ground yet at captain level. But on the ground Elite, I rarely die. I died like twice on the same ground mission because of BO pathing issues and had to solo the mobs by myself and only died twice. Changed kits to my medical one for healing and then didn't die again in that mish.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It must be builds or something. I've done Elite ground missions which are challenging (really challenging), but doable. On Advanced, I don't even break a sweat.

    Away Team: Jeros is my Engineering Admiral plus 2 Engineer BOs, 1 Science BO and 1 Tactical BO. All away team BOs are purples.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Vaughnn wrote:
    Can you share your build? Or what percentage of points are allocated in ground skills vs space skills?

    It does not matter what percentage ratio....Ground Combat skills that directly impact the cpatain's abilities are the first 8 boxes (for Tac Offciers). With a skil level of 9 in all you will end up with a 52 in Rifle, Grenades and Martial Arts. Pistols and Assault weapons are lower because they only take into account the ENS /LT - LTC level skills.

    All ground based Captain and Admiral skills only boost your BO's skills. Now you might say, well BO skills are important...sure, if you can survive the first few seconds of pulling all of the aggro.

    The problem is that certain alien races do 5 times the amount of damage. I would not mind, 3 times the amount if I'm set on Elite....but 5 times, set on all settings!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zutty wrote: »
    A) How to I survive long enough for an expose to come up?
    B) Exploit no longer kills in one shot
    C) I am NOT creating an alt JUST for ground missions!

    So what the hell do I do????

    I'm a science officer, specced for healing. This works very well in STFs, so I'd rather not change that.
    A) Using a bat'leth allows me to keep him out of the fight for most of the time.
    B) Nope, sometimes it takes two exposes.
    C) On my science character I used palm strike if he got too close. And a weapon with knock back and hold. Not nearly as fast as using a bat'leth and I had to use hypos a lot more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Yeah I expect its my spec/build/boffs.

    I haven't earned enough marks of whatever to give all my boffs purple kit yet, but its all Mk X, and I'm using purple shields, armour, and kit. I cant see how slightly improved weapons would suddenly turn the tide though.

    Maybe a medic wasn't built for ground combat, but I still want to be able to play the game! This needs balancing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It must be builds or something. I've done Elite ground missions which are challenging (really challenging), but doable. On Advanced, I don't even break a sweat.

    Away Team: Jeros is my Engineering Admiral plus 2 Engineer BOs, 1 Science BO and 1 Tactical BO. All away team BOs are purples.

    Probably right.

    I'm thinking part of my space issue could be because I'm in a Galaxy cruiser which has the turn rate of a three legged blind rhino. I might respec since I haven't used it to go science class for captain and return to the cruisers at Admiral.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    play on normal mode then. I understand that the rewards ( other than a few merits ) are not actually any greater for the added expense and time of playing on elite.

    On second thoughts don't. I've made some serious cash selling those critical components etc. on the exchange ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Blenda wrote:
    A) Using a bat'leth allows me to keep him out of the fight for most of the time.
    B) Nope, sometimes it takes two exposes.
    C) On my science character I used palm strike if he got too close. And a weapon with knock back and hold. Not nearly as fast as using a bat'leth and I had to use hypos a lot more.

    I make good use of the rifle butt melee attack, and my toon is a vulcan so I have 'physical strength', which I think is good for melee. (??) Plus my sniper rifle has pretty good knockback.

    My biggest problem is staying alive though. The amount of damage that enemies can take is not too much of a problem, but its the utterly ridiculous amount of damage they deal that wipes me every time. I last seconds, and a boff lasts even less.

    Also, I dont see why we should all have to use bat'leths. :( I kind of saddens me that there is this one weapon that is so massively superior to all the others. I happen to like using a phaser rifle (even though the Mk X looks like TRIBBLE).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    play on normal mode then. I understand that the rewards ( other than a few merits ) are not actually any greater for the added expense and time of playing on elite.

    On second thoughts don't. I've made some serious cash selling those critical components etc. on the exchange ;)

    If you were replying to my post, then read my previous one that said I can do Advanced space no problem but Elite not. Ground Elite is still very easily done. If you were just replying to the OP, then forget what I just said. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    If you were replying to my post, then read my previous one that said I can do Advanced space no problem but Elite not. Ground Elite is still very easily done. If you were just replying to the OP, then forget what I just said. ;)

    already forgotten ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I\'ve been having a nasty time on Elite doing the Ultimate Klingon episode.
    Been running it solo with my Engineer toon, 2 Tac BO's an Engineer and a Science officer.
    I flew through the Space combat quite easily but as soon as I run into a Swordmaster he really does chew my team up.

    Progress has been slow moving but if I take my time and work through it its been playable just a real fight.

    My biggest problem is I'm not getting any regenerators as drops and there isn't any way I'm able to replicate them on the fly so eventually it seems like I have to return to a station to buy them which ends up costing my Away Team more than we make from drops in our injury bill.

    Maybe its time to start investing in some ground skills?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I have to agree. Consider:

    Klingon Swordmaster on Normal (RA4 level). His shield has 2000 points, he has around 1000 health. His weapon does 200-300 damage PER STRIKE, which comes every two seconds or so.

    Federation PC with the best equipment I can find. I have 400 shields, and 700 health. My weapon does 20 points with a basic attack and 140 with the charged compression bolt (which takes about 2 seconds to fire).


    Now, in a typical round of firing, it's compression bolt (140) plus four standard shots (20 each). in a typical round of firing, aproximately 6 seconds. Total damage output, 200. To disable his SHIELD would require 10 such rounds of fire, taking roughly 60 seconds.

    He, on the other hand, will attack every two seconds, IGNORE my shield, and kill me in 2-3 hits. Elapsed time, 6 seconds.


    I'm all for a challenge, but nothing irks me more than inconsistency. He's using a Batlh'etlh. They do roughly 20 damage, not 200, and it's not his skill, because my Klingon, with maxmized melee skills can't even BEGIN to approach this kind of damage output.

    I expect the NPCs to perform in a manner consistent with what is known about the game universe. In D&D, an orc with a longsword will do 1d8 damage, because that's what longswords do. There's internal consistency.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Mojo wrote: »
    I have to agree. Consider:

    Klingon Swordmaster on Normal (RA4 level). His shield has 2000 points, he has around 1000 health. His weapon does 200-300 damage PER STRIKE, which comes every two seconds or so.

    Federation PC with the best equipment I can find. I have 400 shields, and 700 health. My weapon does 20 points with a basic attack and 140 with the charged compression bolt (which takes about 2 seconds to fire).


    Now, in a typical round of firing, it's compression bolt (140) plus four standard shots (20 each). in a typical round of firing, aproximately 6 seconds. Total damage output, 200. To disable his SHIELD would require 10 such rounds of fire, taking roughly 60 seconds.

    He, on the other hand, will attack every two seconds, IGNORE my shield, and kill me in 2-3 hits. Elapsed time, 6 seconds.


    I'm all for a challenge, but nothing irks me more than inconsistency. He's using a Batlh'etlh. They do roughly 20 damage, not 200, and it's not his skill, because my Klingon, with maxmized melee skills can't even BEGIN to approach this kind of damage output.

    I expect the NPCs to perform in a manner consistent with what is known about the game universe. In D&D, an orc with a longsword will do 1d8 damage, because that's what longswords do. There's internal consistency.

    Yeah, but Elite Klingons are CR 5 not 1/3 CR. They have a 2d6 base damage from their greatswords - not to mention a +2 to hit / +2 damage. j/k

    That and your DPS is different, if you focus fire with your away team.

    Elite Klingons can be a balanced encounter for a party of 5. (especially if using weaponry that they're weak too).

    For example, never bring a tetryon rifle to an Undine fight. The shield damage is useless against them. Borg use plasma, so plasma is probably not as effective on them.

    A balance of weaponry to match weaknesses is key on higher tiers. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I was havnig a devil of a time with Ground combat. I had to change my science officer from a debuffer/stun type to a healer type (my toon is sci/medic) so we would have two healers to keep up with the INSANE damage certain mobs were dishing out. I wasnt used to seeing 3 officers go down in less than 4 seconds.

    In space I had to retrain my science officer for the Hazzard Emiters skill since the Undine Plasma Fire DoT was taking me from 100% hull to DEAD with a single volley.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Blodveard wrote: »
    All ground based Captain and Admiral skills only boost your BO's skills. Now you might say, well BO skills are important...sure, if you can survive the first few seconds of pulling all of the aggro.

    Erm I have some points in a captain skill that ups my 'fire on my mark', and im sure theres some admirals ones that work on my skills, though dont have points spare there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I agree sometimes the ground it simply awful it is so difficult. One hit from their weapon and I am at 20% health with no shields. second hit I am dead. there is no time to do anything about it. But I have completed some ground mission. I ran in circles to avoid close combat hits and let my bridge officers soak up most of the pain. I gave them all expose weapons and myself an exploit weapon. So I ran and ran spamming the "D" button which targets the nearest exposed target and took them out that way. I still died a lot but was eventually able to complete it.

    I can fair well in space but I cannot defeat a battleship on my own. I have tried many times using many tactics and nothing has worked for me yet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Again, I don't mind difficulty, I just want consistency. A Battleship SHOULD be a big deal to defeat, and a Batlh'etlh should do Batlh'etlh damage. It shouldn't matter if its in my hands or an NPCs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    What some of you are experiencing on the ground has been tested, experienced, feedbacked and complained about the entire time this was on Tribble.

    Some NPCs have access to dual pistols (swordmasters) or heavy ordnance with full auto. The math regarding these weapons in their Elite setting seems to be a tad too high. Because initially these weapons were set too high. It wasn't noticable on normal, because it didn't over-power them back then to the point where your entire group's shields and armor were made of paper.

    This has been given as feedback already. The devs know what is going on. Please, keep offering this feedback. Maybe it will change. But try to understand that this little quirk of combat ... we testers noticed. Noticed it quite distinctively.

    In the meantime, while you are trying (and continually dying) to this ... some strategies that can help ...

    1- Stun pistols. If you stun the enemy, you disrupt the full auto sweep or the dual pistol bolt spray that is doing the insta-killing.
    2- Weapons Malfunction. This forces them into melee, and takes away their ability to AoE your entire crew dead in seconds.
    3- Healing. You're going to need it.
    4- Coordinate your fire. Don't always focus it. It makes the fight last longer, but with phasers set to stun, you keep the NPC with the high damage, AND the other NPCs who may have just as much high damage stunned/controlled enough to not let them pop off their insta-kill barrage.
    5- Phaser Turrets. They do the heavy lifting and kill things for you while you're coordinating your stuns and weapons malfunctions.

    This is the only way I've been able to kill these clusters on this setting. And even with these tactics, I still got overwhelmed often enough to realize that the damage from some NPCs with SOME CERTAIN ABILITIES is too high and needs FINE TUNING. Not nerfing. Just some fine tuning.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Glad to see this post. Space combat is fine for me. I am an Engi in a cruiser and I think that space combat is perfect for me. I have 0 points in ground combat but while doing a mission last night in romulan space. The one Iconian one. Tanris i think its called. I was doing fine even on Elite. It was a challenge but we got through it all until we came up to the end Reman boss guy that insta killed my team in 5 seconds. Literally nothing we could do about it. Even if I had an All PC team the Reman guy has an ability to spawn multiples of him self. About 5 I think and all 5 drain life away directly passing your Shields completely. And on top of that he also spawns 4 guards with him. So its like 20 on 5. That has been the only point that I have not been able to beat a ground mission on Elite. So some balance deff. Needs to be looked into.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Zutty wrote: »
    A) How to I survive long enough for an expose to come up?
    B) Exploit no longer kills in one shot
    C) I am NOT creating an alt JUST for ground missions!

    So what the hell do I do????

    I'm a science officer, specced for healing. This works very well in STFs, so I'd rather not change that.

    On my engineer and tac officer I've have no trouble with Elite (haven't gotten around to leveling up my Sci yet), all I had to do is change a few tactics and they die like they used to.

    You can approach this in one of two ways:
    -First way is to act like you do while running STFs and let your group do the work for you while you support. Meaning that you bring BOs with plenty of firepower and skills, and let them do the work while you keep them alive.

    -The other way is to bring an offensive science kit and focus on CCing the tougher enemies while you take out his buddies, then leaving you free to focus on him alone once it's all done.
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