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Science 1.1 -WARNING-huge wall fo text-

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited May 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I am posting this to review the science options for players piloting a science vessel being a science captain.
There are two ship types as everyone knows. The deep space vessel (DSV) and the Recon Science Vessel (RSV). The major difference in these two ships is the ensign level skills. The DSV gets an extra engineer skill, where the RSV get an extra tactical ensign skill. The major issue with these types boils down to play style. With recent changes to turn rate moving from AUX to engines this nerfed science vessels the most since most built for pvp had high aux levels which increased the already horrible turn rates.

The game itself boils down to 2 major parts the PVE and PVP, this post is in regards to PVP since PVE at this point is redundant and predictable as any other MMO PVE. There is no real skill involved in dealing with AI that is scripted to do certain things each and every time. The Difficulty Slider did nothing as to affect actually adding smarter NPC mobs, it upped the DPS output and the health of the NPC’s. The idea behind PVP is that you are dealing with people that re unpredictable and change strategies all the time.
Now as one takes a look at the different roles each vessel plays in STO it is easy to see that the escorts job is the have a high damage output, the cruiser has the role of primary healer, the science always had the role of Crowd control buff / debuff.

This article is about that specific role of science in the current skill sets that cryptic has done with science and the lack of Crowd Control they have now.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    If you examine each of the science skills you will see clear and defined weaknesses with most every single science skill.

    Tykens rift – designed to drain the subsystem power levels of enemies, well after testing all levels of the skill last night it has become apparent that this is the last of the decent skills science has. However; that skills drain can be countered with 1 EPS flow regulator 2 will completely negate any negative drain the skill has. Meaning that if a person is expecting this skill to drain the persons power levels and leave them hindered they are sadly mistaken if they have EPS flow consoles.

    Tachyon Beam – a skill designed to drain all the shield facings, well maxed out with the old +30 consoles and level 3 of the skill it drained shields 40%. We tested it on an escort of all classes too, so it took the shield facings from 7000 to 4900, that amount of shield drain is absolutely pathetic.

    Energy Siphon – This skill has potential for being useful as maxed out it drains 15 from a targets subsystems and transfers it to your ship power levels. The problems with this skill are that it takes 3 seconds for this to take effect, which I can understand with watching the animation of the skill. The major issue is that this skill shares a cool down with MANY other science skills, any that work on deflector dish. Like Tyken’s rift, tachyon beam, SNB Gravity well

    Gravity well – This skill is designed to snare the enemy and pull them backwards towards to vortex of the animation and deal hull damage. Well after testing it last night on an escort it does neither well at level 3 with consoles to pump it up. The damage it deals to a ship without shields was 50 damage per tick. With shields it was less than 30 per tick. The worst part is the drag of the skill is broken right now and it will pull a target after the skill is gone, this can be countered after a person dies. So the only useful part of this skill is after it has gone away and it bugs a player out.

    Science Team – the break and butter of the science captain since it is an instant shield heal, the major problem is that it shares the same cool down as Engineer team which is the most important Hull Heal in the game. It raises your Starship Operations which in turns makes all science skills used afterwards a little bit better. The shield resistance it adds is nice as well except for the fact shields are greatly over-rated. Even at eleven thousand shield power an escort with cannon rapid fire (a skill which can be active on them 100% of the time) can shred through them in 3 seconds. This is where Engineering team is critical to save because the science team will not save your life the engineering team will. It used to be the most important skill since it was the skill that got you out of a viral matrix, so everyone would carry the skill due to its great utility.

    Transfer shield strength – This skill COULD be great if it was not broken. The 10km range and the heal over time to shield power is great, the small resist it offer is nice…the burst shield heal it says it adds DOES NOT WORK. That is why this skill is gimped to hell and back. Cryptic NEEDS to fix this skill by making sure the skill gives the burst shield heal with the HOT to shields it is supposed to give. As it stands right now this skill has no usefulness over extend shields (engineer skill)

    Photonic Shockwave – This skill is an absolute joke, it has a small stun…..smaller than the stun built into a tricobalt mine. The AOE bonus off of it is the only redeeming factor to it, the damage is deal to a person without shields is less than a single unbuffed torpedo, if the targets have shield power up it is not even noticeable damage (100% life to 99% life)

    Polarize Hull – A good skill for solo play, the resist it gives is great. However you cannot give this skill to others and it shares a cool down with hazard emitters which is a heal over time and a resist you CAN give to other players or yourself. The anti-tractor beam is nice to have but again a solo skill that shares some really nice skill cool downs.

    Hazard Emitters – The best heal science has, it has limited range but the Heal over time can really be nice and with a 30% resist built in it has many uses.

    Tractor Beam – This skill can be great when timed right but it can also be countered easily, a person can simply ramming speed out of it, or use Emergency Maneuvers. This skill also does not drag or pull a player like one would think a tractor beam would do…as it does in every star trek movie and show.

    Tractor Beam Repulses - This skill is turning out to be one of the better skills for science as it has the ability to move enemies out of range of heals, the problem is that its opposite skill tractor beam doesn’t have the option to pull a target as this has the ability to push.

    Mask Energy Signature – IS GARBAGE !! nuff said

    Jam sensors – Another decent skill, however it is a solo style skill and only works on a single target. Not to mention science team removes the debuff and since VM is not an issue anymore why not use Sci team to remove it

    Charge Particle Burst – This skill is supposed to do shield damage but when tested maxed out it did less than one thousand damage to shields. The ability to knock down Cloaking is decent except it has a small radius and a long cool down.

    Scramble Sensors – This skill is amazing in PVE for fighting multiple mobs, in PVP it is nothing more than a annoying fly, It does nothing against decent players as they all know to watch the target and not attack their teammates and not heal the enemy. If this MADE you switch targets randomly while under the effects of it then it could be decent.

    Photonic Officer – This skill was amazing because it worked on cool downs of all skills and left them at the spot they were at, now if the skill is about to wear off and you hit a skill the time taken off the cool down will be added back to the cool down of the skill after the Photonic officer power wears off. The old version of the skill was perfect. The new version is flawed with the buff having a double sided edge to it. The skill should not add time to skills that were under its affects.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Now for the BIG 3, no the little 2 and big brother
    Viral Matrix – the new Viral Matrix is absolutely worthless at any level other than VM3. We tested this extensively last night and found that it has no real usage other than a small stutter effect on enemies. When applied to an escort, it took down weapon firing options for 6 seconds at most (A tricobalt does that) The affects it has on engines is a snaring affect not a root affect, it is all based off the enemies impulse speed, and the AUX systems takes off some science skills (emitter and sensor skills) So at most when used against 2/3 of the ship captains mean it has a chance to snare them for a few seconds, take down a maximum of 3 skills for a few seconds and take out the ability to fire weapons for a few seconds. With no consistency and no real knowledge of what will exactly happen and when this skill is boiled down to a joke of a skill. The original incarnation was useful and had counters to it. The fact cryptic bows down to the demands of the players that CANNOT figure out how to counter a skill shows a lack of real game design understanding. Nerfing is not the answer to a problem, balancing is.

    Feedback Pulse – this skill is WORTHLESS. We tested it out maxed out consoles and build and it did nothing at FBP3. In fact the pulse it feeds back is energy based to shield power levels provide the enemy with resistance to the feedback itself. When it hit back against beams it hit for 2-6 damage on hull and the same to shields. When seen against cannons it was the same result, no real danger to the escorts in fact the escorts could sit there allow the CRF to continue to go crazy and the feedback did nothing to stop the escort form burning through the shield and killing the science vessel. FBP1, 2 have even less “teeth to their bite”. This skill went from deadly VS beams to worthless.

    Sub-nucleonic Beam – This is the one skill that actually went from good to great. The ability to remove buffs is more than useful. However; the old skill was fine it just needed a counter, take a skill like tactical team and give that the ability to remove the SNB. Either way the other major issue with this skill is it shares a cool down with Tykens’ rift, energy siphon, gravity well, Tachyon beam the last few decent crowd control skills science captains have left.

    The combination of nerfing VM, FBP and photonic officer all while keeping the systems they work off the same really pinion holed science down to a gimpy healer or a subpar Crowd control class. The healing is nice but it is all HOT with no burst healing like the skill transfer shield strength says it has. The crowd control of subsystems as Cryptic wants to move the CC style needs some reworking. The skills like energy siphon and tykens rift should not be on the same cool down as SNB and gravity well. Tractor beam and tractor beam repulses makes sense since it is the same skill just the flow of power is reversed. The VM change took Science vessels from the front of CC to the middle. An escort can CC in many cases can CC to comparison of a science vessel with the usage of tykens rift and beam target subsystems. A cruiser has the burst healing of engineer team 3 and extends shields which science vessels lack to the fullest.
    So with the changes to science, the lack of DPS science has over escorts and the lack of healing the science has over cruisers cryptic has relegated science vessels to sub-par healers with sub-par crowd control skills. Rework the science skill systems that each operates on so that the last few decent skills do not all share cool downs with each other, or fix the skills that are worthless to actually have purpose. If changes are not made to most of science skills to make them viable in PVP I do not see myself playing this game through the summer. As it stands right now a team comprised of escorts and cruisers is the optimal team makeup, there is very little need for science vessels at this point. I say this with much experience in the PVP game play and a desire to not see STO become a watered down game that is for casual gamers. I am a gamer that loves a challenge and I want variety and flavor as of right now there is no need to add the flavor of science to the game when vanilla escorts / cruisers do the job better.
    I have tested multiple builds for various science options and as it stands right now science is not a vialble optionf or competative PVP. I want to belive that cryptic is a good company but the loads of negative feedback they recieved at the start fo the game is really showing through right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I was with ya on some testing but when Galkus had FBP 3 up omfg that was pathetic. I was hit with VM about 6 times yesterday and nothing happened at all to me. Yes the new subnuc is insanely overpowered now. It makes it a lot easier for science to kill others.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Diekruzen wrote:
    I was with ya on some testing but when Galkus had FBP 3 up omfg that was pathetic. I was hit with VM about 6 times yesterday and nothing happened at all to me. Yes the new subnuc is insanely overpowered now. It makes it a lot easier for science to kill others.

    Cryptic logic states they will nerf SNB again, before fixing the rest of the useless science skills.


    Nice post Rev.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Great post! I've been playing around with several builds as well. Your analysis is right on target. I agree that many of the upper tier skills are very lack-luster.

    There are too many shared cool downs between the skills. You mentioned this under energy siphon. It makes various builds unrealistic.

    The crowd control feel of being a Science Officer is gone. While shutting someone down for 30 seconds was certainly over the top, its pretty much non-existent now. If VM is working as intended, it should be just removed from the game. VM and Photonic can be added to the MES category.

    SNB is still good. Its the one way to still be able to stop the chain RSP's. Of course you can only do that once every 90 seconds. That also means you didn't already use it to strip off the HY3, CRF3, APB from the escort beforehand. Funny how a tac can chain up big alpha skills while everything on Sci's specialty skills all share cool downs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I've got to agree with you. I don't know why a science guy would want to fly a science ship.

    However, science/escort is now a terrifying thing. I ran into a group of three of them (with two cruisers supporting them) in Cracked planet. I think they were a pre-made because they were very organized. Their strategy was to ignore the escort and science ship, and target the three cruisers separately. Being in a pug, I popped RSP once my hull got to half (it's sad but can't count on an ES), it was immediately removed, and I went pop.

    Back to your OP, I think cruisers face a similar problem, though not quite as bad. We've got three engineer abilities that are great, engineering team, RSP, and Extend shields. After that it's anywhere from mediocre to useless.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    It's almost like listening to the list of upper tier engi abilities. :(

    FBP, VM and SNB did need a change. I've seen ships running FBP use it in conjuction with attacks to kill. It as a skill by itself, can no-longer kill all but the most stupid of us. And truthfully...? I think that's about right.

    VM.... I can't even say I've been hit with it enough to figure out the exacts of it. And SNB? Well. Noobs use it first, and then it's worthless. But I've found a good few people who have learnt exactly when to use it. And it makes my dual-SciT cruiser build all the more desirable. o_o TRIBBLE jams or scrambles, 2 SciT's and a hazard and that's the end of that.

    Gravity well should do -damage-

    Tykens... if you're hit with it in combat, it can make a difference. It's almost got me in conjuction with TSS. The applications are very useful, just relying on teamwork to utilise. Same with syphon.

    Hey, welcome to the engi world. Aceton field is good. Ext Shields is good with a friend. Everything else is very much minimally useful or brokenly bad. :D Tada. Now they just have to do it to escorts too and we'll all be in the same boat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Well I'm gonna have to disagree with some of your points due to my own experiences, although to be fair others are right on.

    The main thing I have to disagree with is your analysis of FBP, as I have several times damn near killed myself on alpha strike runs of science ships (my own fault for not noticing it was up really).

    At level 3, FBP reflects 100% damage that is subsequently split between hull and shields, and when I'm on a run, shelling out 50k+ worth of damage, it HURTS. Even without buffs and just white damaging you should see the steady stream of pulsing coming right back at my ship because of the cannons and turrets. I am not joking when I say that I have to stop attacking science ships that are running this because I'm killing myself by shooting them. This skill isn't worthless, it needs to be nerfed in half!

    With VM, I think we can both agree that it needed some sort of nerf, as a 30 second hold is just too long if your counter(s) are down. If they had cut the time in half then people would have screamed about it, since they changed it to what it is, not too many people are complaining and it is no longer quite the taboo to use it that it was.

    Gravity well is actually glitched as I've had it happen to me where I couldn't move away from where the Well was after it had dissipated, and it kept sucking me back in until somebody came along to kill me and reset the glitch.....

    The rest is.......meh......since the patch I've seen more and more science ship pilots that were absolutely brutal to fight, where a few days ago I was beating them down. Cryptic didn't nerf yall, they silently made yall meaner and I need to adapt again to find ways to break yall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    Sivar wrote: »
    Well I'm gonna have to disagree with some of your points due to my own experiences, although to be fair others are right on.

    The main thing I have to disagree with is your analysis of FBP, as I have several times damn near killed myself on alpha strike runs of science ships (my own fault for not noticing it was up really).

    At level 3, FBP reflects 100% damage that is subsequently split between hull and shields, and when I'm on a run, shelling out 50k+ worth of damage, it HURTS. Even without buffs and just white damaging you should see the steady stream of pulsing coming right back at my ship because of the cannons and turrets. I am not joking when I say that I have to stop attacking science ships that are running this because I'm killing myself by shooting them. This skill isn't worthless, it needs to be nerfed in half!

    With VM, I think we can both agree that it needed some sort of nerf, as a 30 second hold is just too long if your counter(s) are down. If they had cut the time in half then people would have screamed about it, since they changed it to what it is, not too many people are complaining and it is no longer quite the taboo to use it that it was.

    Gravity well is actually glitched as I've had it happen to me where I couldn't move away from where the Well was after it had dissipated, and it kept sucking me back in until somebody came along to kill me and reset the glitch.....

    The rest is.......meh......since the patch I've seen more and more science ship pilots that were absolutely brutal to fight, where a few days ago I was beating them down. Cryptic didn't nerf yall, they silently made yall meaner and I need to adapt again to find ways to break yall.

    I have to agree with this, I nearly killed my self in 2 seconds against a sci ship while i was in my escort. How is that useless? Also, some sci ships have become super tanky since the patch. Been in plenty of matches where one will be incredibly hard to take out, often requiring 3-5 other people to take them down.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I have to agree with this, I nearly killed my self in 2 seconds against a sci ship while i was in my escort. How is that useless? Also, some sci ships have become super tanky since the patch. Been in plenty of matches where one will be incredibly hard to take out, often requiring 3-5 other people to take them down.

    I may be wrong but it seems like the 'useless' comment is based on how it used to operate against the much slower firing beam weapons. If you're nearly killing yourself now on the poor relative of the original then you can see why it's being called useless. Cruisers running beams have virtually nothing to fear with this now, I know I don't pay attention to it any more.

    Imagine if you'd gone up against FBP3 with your cannons and the old version reflecting damage back to you. You'd likely be a smoking wreck after one weapon cycle, if that. I think where it's at now is a good place since escorts were the ones that really needed to be put off attacking science ships with their massive damage output, yet they had no worries about it. Cruisers were roasting themselves very easily and that made no sense to me. Now, at least from my perspective, it's the other way around as it should be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    You can still bring FBP over 100%. It now takes resistances into account, so using Sensor Scan and Attack Pattern Beta can get you back to nearly old values. This reflected damage on an escort is an instant kill in one of his volleys.

    I got a science ship too and do amazingly well after 1.1. I seem to benefit the most from the % resistances to shields now added.

    I just wish they would put Tykens Rift on the spatial anomaly system-global cooldown (with gravity well), and not deflector dish. But hey, you can't have everything.

    The easy 2-skill combos are gone maybe, SNB+VM for example, but I didn't rely on them anyway, too easy, made your skillevel dump to zero after a while, and still got a rich plate full of holds and heals and power drains-what do I want more?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    I had a sci captain which i stopped using because as rota said i was becomming very lazy in the way i played. However, while using almost no sci cc now i found with the exception of sub i suffered very little from cc only once in a blue moon was i unable to deal with being VM'd, in fact i almost forgot it was there as a skill to worry about.

    FBP, now i have taken some damage from it but many times have just decided i can ignore it or pop hazards and continue, one or twice i have decided to swap targets TRIBBLE hte damage was a bit high, and i can wait 15s before comming back.

    In the end i think all cryptic needed to do was add a counter to sub, i always liked the tac team option as it would have given that skill some value and maybe sepertated the cooldowns on the teams themselves, that alone would have been more than enough balancing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited May 2010
    /signed

    I've said this over and over since open beta. While science captains' abilities are the best in comparison, science class ships are the worst, mainly due to crappy BO skills.
    Our role should have been crowd control and buff / debuff, because we have the least dps and hull. But they removed cc from the game, and made all tactical skills more viable for buff / debuff.

    Also, I'm thinking about changing from DSSV to RSV due to the new turn-rate. In my DSSV I have to sacrifice the extra engineering slot for a +30% turn-rate console, so what's the point.

    :(
    I have to agree with this, I nearly killed my self in 2 seconds against a sci ship while i was in my escort. How is that useless? Also, some sci ships have become super tanky since the patch. Been in plenty of matches where one will be incredibly hard to take out, often requiring 3-5 other people to take them down.

    I never kill anyone with my FBP3 unless they are stupid. Stacking -resist debuffs is almost impossible if you get sneaked up from behind, by the time I target them with APB my facing shield is already down. Usually I don't even get the 100% out of FBP3, usually it's ~50% reflect because resist is so much easier to stack than debuffs. What kills me then is, most of the time, not the cannons, but the HYT3 which can't be reflected anyway (33k kinetic damage? thanks, that was my whole hull. and that's with a kinetic resist console.).
    I can tank quite well, but only a bunch of cruisers or other sci ships. Once an escort joins the fight, it's over. And what's the point in tanking if I'm no threat anyway, they might just as well leave me alone.
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