test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

I knew I should have spent some time on Tribble: The new SNB

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited May 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I will happily admit that the old version of SNB had some balance problems. Two quite big ones - namely, that it had no counter (except amelioration via Photonic Officers) and that if you mixed it with VM and boosted auxiliary power, the recipient was totally shut down for 20 seconds or more. That it needed work was beyond most people's doubt. The assertion that it needed a solid whack with the nerf bat might be a little more contentious...but only a little more.

I would contend that the new SNB is actually a worse balance problem than the old version. The old 'I win' button was actually several things : a ship with a Lt.Cdr science station, high auxiliary power and viral matrix. There was a (very) slim chance that a vessel so rigged might not actually have had the firepower to kill you before either the effects wore off or a friend bailed you out.

The new 'I win' is even simpler. Escort/Raptor, VM and a full guns strafing pass with Rapid Fire II and High Yield II. Your victim will hit RSP at some point (or lose his shields) and all the science captain has to do is tap SNB. SNB removes RSP (and every other buff), shields go down, HY2 meets bare hull and the victim goes boom.

My prediction is this: Within a month, Science captains in Raptors and Escorts will be dominating PvP.


A possible solution is to nerf SNB so that, rather than stripping all buffs, it merely strips one random buff. Or go back to the VM-esque version, but remove its ability to stack with VM (or render it counterable by science team).
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    doesn't affect ES chains, but yes, Multiple high-skilled pvpers could call the power before we saw it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    In honor of the legions of people who said it would be fine, I'm going to christen my new advanced scicort the USS ToldYouSo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    wait until they finally allow you to train bo's and then trade them, when sci captains have hy3 and purple quants, probably wont even need tss3 or anyhing. just to listen to th ecrying i might have to dust off my old op sci capytan
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I don't see why any of this comes a surprise to anyone...
    Just look at what they did to the KDF, that's evidence enough, they don't know wtf they're doing.
    I see many a sub ending after this, as well as empty pvp areas.

    FBP alone melted an escort for me. I only shot him TSS:S2, got JS'd, and he nuked himself.
    APO+RF+etc etc ...
    Well, yall wanted this, now ya got it... hope it makes ya happy.....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Gotta agree with you on this one.

    Played some pvp today. Ran into 3 science/escorts on the opposing team. They were unstoppable offensively. We killed a couple, but nothing seemed to slow them down. RSP is now useless. They didn't even bother to focus fire. Each would just target a separate cruiser, wait for RSP (kinda pointless to use ES since you're immediately on the defensive, unless you have absolute faith in your buddies to send you an ES, which isn't going to happen in a pug), Subnuc....dead cruisers. Then mop up the rest. Rinse, repeat.

    I had a feeling this was going to happen, but waited to see if maybe shield buff slowed things down. I couldn't see a difference, maybe one extra second if that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Each would just target a separate cruiser, wait for RSP (kinda pointless to use ES since you're immediately on the defensive, unless you have absolute faith in your buddies to send you an ES, which isn't going to happen in a pug), Subnuc....dead cruisers.
    Extend Shields is an awesome skill in PVP, and more people need to use it. Especially since it doesn't care about subnucleonic beam.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The new SNB is fine. Learn to work together as a group and you'll see RSP isn't even really needed for survivability.
    And even if the entire enemy team consists of science captains, if you pop RSP while under heavy fire and bother to even out your shields, they will be fully or almost fully recharged before they can strip it, making it at worst just as good as Science Team III minus the shield resistance. Not bad at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    With rotating shield freq and science team - in advance - I could tank 30 secs then pop rsp and keep going...

    My Ca dies as fast as my escort does now.

    If I ever really want to Pvp ever again...it will be Science Kling in a BoP.

    The buff to shield resis is almost NON exhistant in PvP. Did notice a bit better tanking in PvE
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Dyryke wrote:
    The buff to shield resis is almost NON exhistant in PvP. Did notice a bit better tanking in PvE

    I notice it vs Science Ships and other Cruisers. I find it harder to get to their hull and see my shields last longer. However against escorts the damage reduction is not even noticable. They tear through your shields in 0.6 seconds, now its 0.7 seconds....big deal.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LordTareq wrote: »
    I notice it vs Science Ships and other Cruisers. I find it harder to get to their hull and see my shields last longer. However against escorts the damage reduction is not even noticable. They tear through your shields in 0.6 seconds, now its 0.7 seconds....big deal.

    Yea as an Escort Driver I have had no problems taking down ships and surviving since the patch.
    I am really liking the changes, I am a tac officer so what buff are you going to take off me an attack pattern. Big woop. :)

    RSP can still slow me down but with a good team it wont matter and if im solo then i just fly in and out of range with little problem especially with target engines so if someone hits RSP I can just fly away and come back later or I get lucky and my target shields drops a shield and my HY torps pound on you. . :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LordTareq wrote: »
    The new SNB is fine. Learn to work together as a group and you'll see RSP isn't even really needed for survivability...Not bad at all.

    Totally agree...working as intended.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    BountyXP wrote: »
    Totally agree...working as intended.

    Wish I could say Hazard Emitters being stripped fell into the same category, but that one really doesn't feel right. Then again, it's self-castable unlike ES or TSS (Transfer Shield Strength).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The New SNB should've just been a debuffer, and not have it affect cooldowns at all. Its rediculous that the cooldowns stay with you even after death. Heck, its really terrible when you get hit multiple times and it turns your 30minute Transwarp cooldown to 2 hours! Or Miracle Worker go fro 9 minutes to half an hour!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I have mixed feelings on the new SNB. When I'm on a good team, I like it a lot better than the old one. I mostly play my healers, and the old SNB just shut me down way too long. The new one hurts a lot, but I don't get hit with it any more than anyone else (after enemies saw me a few times they'd save the old one to use on me), and if you're fast you can pop a different defense or heal.

    I specify "on a good team" though because if I'm the only player healing and throwing out Extend Shields, we're just screwed. ES is the only real defense against the new SNB, so any player without that ability really shouldn't expect to be on a winning team. I can heal someone else who gets their RSP knocked off, but if I get hit with SNB I'll either need help (very likely since I'd need my heals to survive and those are likely to have a short cooldown if I was healing other people) or I'll need to use everything I've got to stay alive and mostly stop healing the team.

    Not to mention that if I'm the only healer, all those lovely buffs I give people that are about to die can be erased in a second, and it's likely to be 10 seconds or more before I have something else to give.

    Teams with 2 primary healers and every member using 1 or 2 heals ought to do fine with the new SNB. It's a bit less of a problem than getting a healer locked out for 20 seconds with the old one, as long as you have plenty of people to throw out ES and reapply buffs.

    But in typical PUGs, the new SNB is brutal. Much worse than the old one. PUGgers almost never seem to have ES, and almost never heal or buff someone who's being focus-fired. They figure that they rolled a Tac officer or that they want to tank, so healing isn't part of their job. STO already had a problem with 5-second kills, and now it's a lot worse since RSP has a major counter.

    In some ways I feel like the new SNB is actually very balanced, but now basic ship durability needs to be looked at. Before the patch, starships were made of glass, but you could stack up buffs and tank for several minutes. Now that the buffs can be wiped away all at once, we're back to the starships being made of glass.

    At any rate, I like it okay when I'm on a good team, but it's worse for PUGs than before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    inktomi19d wrote: »
    I have mixed feelings on the new SNB. When I'm on a good team, I like it a lot better than the old one. I mostly play my healers, and the old SNB just shut me down way too long. The new one hurts a lot, but I don't get hit with it any more than anyone else (after enemies saw me a few times they'd save the old one to use on me), and if you're fast you can pop a different defense or heal.

    I specify "on a good team" though because if I'm the only player healing and throwing out Extend Shields, we're just screwed. ES is the only real defense against the new SNB, so any player without that ability really shouldn't expect to be on a winning team. I can heal someone else who gets their RSP knocked off, but if I get hit with SNB I'll either need help (very likely since I'd need my heals to survive and those are likely to have a short cooldown if I was healing other people) or I'll need to use everything I've got to stay alive and mostly stop healing the team.

    Not to mention that if I'm the only healer, all those lovely buffs I give people that are about to die can be erased in a second, and it's likely to be 10 seconds or more before I have something else to give.

    Teams with 2 primary healers and every member using 1 or 2 heals ought to do fine with the new SNB. It's a bit less of a problem than getting a healer locked out for 20 seconds with the old one, as long as you have plenty of people to throw out ES and reapply buffs.

    But in typical PUGs, the new SNB is brutal. Much worse than the old one. PUGgers almost never seem to have ES, and almost never heal or buff someone who's being focus-fired. They figure that they rolled a Tac officer or that they want to tank, so healing isn't part of their job. STO already had a problem with 5-second kills, and now it's a lot worse since RSP has a major counter.

    In some ways I feel like the new SNB is actually very balanced, but now basic ship durability needs to be looked at. Before the patch, starships were made of glass, but you could stack up buffs and tank for several minutes. Now that the buffs can be wiped away all at once, we're back to the starships being made of glass.

    At any rate, I like it okay when I'm on a good team, but it's worse for PUGs than before.


    even pugs learn, eventualy they to will see that their RSP is becoming a whole lot less effective. they might start adding in some ES in their build.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Dave_Reel wrote: »
    even pugs learn, eventualy they to will see that their RSP is becoming a whole lot less effective. they might start adding in some ES in their build.

    ES is a waste of a slot for a pug.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Alendiak wrote:
    ES is a waste of a slot for a pug.

    lawls, no it isn't not even gonna bother giving an explanation. ES is still amazing in a pug.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    It was stupid to add anything other than weapons and shields to Space PvP in the first place. Once again Space PvP will become nothing more than a Hold vs DPS balance battle from here on out. Enjoy it...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    lawls, no it isn't not even gonna bother giving an explanation. ES is still amazing in a pug.

    It is if no one is supporting you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Well all I know is it helps with the facerollers. Example: I caught an escort several times last night with snb to strip him of his buffs. What buffs you might ask? Well he was the typical ASIII/rapid fire/THY3/RSP/EPtS. Stripped everything before his inital engagement. So all he did was run away. I think it forces people to think before just trying buff stack. Would I use it on someone who just has AS up? Probably not, but a cruiser buffed with RSP/RSM/Polorize...probably depending on how many of us are attacking him at one time. But I sure as hell used it on my little escort buddy from last night every chance I got. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    jfkgoodlos wrote:
    Well all I know is it helps with the facerollers. Example: I caught an escort several times last night with snb to strip him of his buffs. What buffs you might ask? Well he was the typical ASIII/rapid fire/THY3/RSP/EPtS. Stripped everything before his inital engagement. So all he did was run away. I think it forces people to think before just trying buff stack. Would I use it on someone who just has AS up? Probably not, but a cruiser buffed with RSP/RSM/Polorize...probably depending on how many of us are attacking him at one time. But I sure as hell used it on my little escort buddy from last night every chance I got. :D

    I agree the facerollers will have to actually think now which isn't something I'm too worried about.
    SNB is great for the fact it strips them of the "lawn mower" attack.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    snb strips everything but extend shields, which should place even more emphasis on teamwork, unfortunately it appears that the point is missed with alot of players...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Alendiak wrote:
    It is if no one is supporting you.

    Well I guess me and my Star Cruisers are borked now, aren't we?

    I was initially pessimistic about the new SNB, but last night was an interesting experience. Honestly. I seriously hope these changes will pave the way towards shifting the common altitude of "every men for himself" into "united we stand, divided we fall". Anyone else left behind from this change as they desperately cling onto exclusive self buffs deserves to be crushed mercilessly.

    Extend Shields is a beautiful thing. The sooner the community embrace that, the sooner we all win.

    That said, I'm wrecking my head trying to shoehorn my Star Cruiser build into something similar to Faithborn's but with 2 extend shields, instead of one.

    TSSs seems to be extremely common now, I was getting shot by 3s and 2s left and right. I might have to adopt a hull heal heavy emphasis on my Escort as well, but the torpedoes... sweet Aunt Mary... them torpedoes. :(
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yeah; the new SNB is just as potent as the old... just in a different capacity. I believe it being able to strip all buffs is rather... extreme. Perhaps stripping a random buff or a maximum amount of buffs, would rein in the power a bit. I've already been considering changing my Science captain to flying an Escort, just for the LuLz factor of hitting SNB when the poor enemy ship uses RSP to try and save itself. :rolleyes:

    I think it's a bit too cheesy for me, though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yeah; the new SNB is just as potent as the old... just in a different capacity. I believe it being able to strip all buffs is rather... extreme. Perhaps stripping a random buff or a maximum amount of buffs, would rein in the power a bit. I've already been considering changing my Science captain to flying an Escort, just for the LuLz factor of hitting SNB when the poor enemy ship uses RSP to try and save itself. :rolleyes:

    I think it's a bit too cheesy for me, though.

    Well you also have to consider that it does have a 4 min cool down, so it balances. It isn't like you can just fly around every 30 seconds SNB'ing someone to death. I truly weigh the situation as to when I use it or no. I did see it used serval times last night on a cruiser and the cruiser survive. But there again, it was bing used by people just to use it. One cruiser I remember only had 1 buff and it wasn't a defensive buff that was stripped. To me that was a waste. I used it 2 times on a cruiser when we had the Kling ball going and was focus firing on him, and he popped Rotate shields/RSP/ and Polorize thinking he would just sit there being the floating unkillable spounge all by him self.

    There again though I have a team mentality as opposed to the lone wolf mentality.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    About ES being a waste of a slot if no one is supporting you:

    Someone has to be the first.

    I hate that my Assault Cruiser (I know Star Cruisers are better for support, but I'm experimenting) or Battle Cruiser can keep a whole team alive, outhealing both sides combined, but when I'm in trouble no one has an ES to throw me, or even wants to spare a Science or Engineering Team for me. I hate that if I come into a match late, not only do I need to catch up on heals the second I come in, but I'll probably also have to form the team while I'm saving them, because most players always wait for someone else to start teams. There might be no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in "carrying".

    The thing is that there is nothing *I* might do to save *me* that won't get stripped away. There's not anything *I* might stack instead of ES that will help *me* any more after it gets stripped away. So it doesn't help to watch out for myself anymore.

    Sometimes I end up in a PUG with someone else who puts support first, and those times are awesome. I put up with supporting my PUG while they aren't supporting me, because that's the only way to run into team players.

    I'm right with Faithborn on the new SNB encouraging more team play instead of less. It's very hard to protect yourself against, but pretty easy for another player to protect you. Insanely easy when your whole team supports each other, so that whoever sees you in trouble tosses you whatever ensign and LT buffs they have.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Well I've tried out ES... I blew up alot.

    I'kll give it another 10 days, if I haven't found another way of extending my life expectancy(beyond a Escort coughing in my direction), I'll just cancel my subscription.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Alendiak wrote:
    Well I've tried out ES... I blew up alot.

    I'kll give it another 10 days, if I haven't found another way of extending my life expectancy(beyond a Escort coughing in my direction), I'll just cancel my subscription.
    Honestly you need other people trying ES out for it to work.

    I'm really bothered by how quickly starships explode too. IMO RSP was kind of OP and covered up the basic problems that come with building warships out of glass. While defensive buffs stayed the same, since they can be removed now it highlights exactly how poor shields and hull are for basic defense. I've always thought that the pace of combat needed to be slowed down a bit. I'm just pointing out that teamwork counters the new SNB better than the old.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Alendiak wrote:
    ES is a waste of a slot for a pug.

    OMGZ ES is by far the best enginerring abiltiy out there except for maybe engineering team And ES3 wow is all i got to say Almost 50% shield resist and over `1k shield regen per tick for 30 seconds yeah thats a sweet ability right there. Also if they make is so engineering resist consoles stack properly you would not need to nerf damage at all.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Chronico wrote: »
    OMGZ ES is by far the best enginerring abiltiy out there except for maybe engineering team And ES3 wow is all i got to say Almost 50% shield resist and over `1k shield regen per tick for 30 seconds yeah thats a sweet ability right there. Also if they make is so engineering resist consoles stack properly you would not need to nerf damage at all.

    properly attuned you can get just under 2k per tick for 30 seconds. Thats per face though, if the recipient is balancing his shields then it becomes a lawlstack of about 6k per second. Just about no one can dps through that if it gets going when you factor in the resists.
Sign In or Register to comment.