I think there very good reasons why a game shouldn't allow UI mods.
1. UI modding becomes an excuse for the standard UI to be sub par.
2. UI modding either makes the game too easy or becomes mandatory.
First of, basicly, as soon as you allow UI mods the basic UI goes down the drain. Every feature that it doesn't have, oh well, why bother adding it, someone else will anyways right? That's just annoying though, I don't want to have to download third party stuff to acctually have the full feature list of the game.
The second thing is what you see in WoW with all the extra UIs you need for raiding and arena. You basicly cannot play the game with a vanilla UI because all the UI mods make it so much easier that either they have to develop the game with modded UIs in mind, or just let it be a total cakewalk front to back. Like let's say you allow UI modding for the PvP engagements, then very soon you'll have a UI mod out there that checks the PvP report, plops all the names in a UI element that tries to target that player when you click his name. Yup, that's a modded UI that you would not be able to do without, because having that capability makes even the biggest noob a focus firing machine. So, no, UI modding is not something that doesn't change functionality. Anyone remember how fun WoW was before everyone had a DPS meter? UI mods do make the game worse by automating things that normaly are hard to keep track of and thereby giving people who use them a distinct advantage.
I don't like games where you can't be competetive without lots of third party stuff running. UI mods basicly make it a mandate to have third party plugins in your game, because as soon as UI modding is allowed the developer themselves have no inscentive to make the vanilla UI work well or include the same functionality.
I'll give you three reasons instead of two, and just lift my post from the other thread since it is more relevant in this thread:
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I do not want to see user modding of anything in STO, with the exception of the current one-line command keybinds we can make. I want the responsibility for functional UI to remain with the paid developer.
I played WoW for several years, and while I enjoyed the freedom it gave the modding community, it just created headaches for end-users in three ways:
1) Required end-users to update constantly whenever a new game patch was released. And heaven forbid a modder quit the game, forcing end-users to look elsewhere for their solutions, because the developer had ceded responsibility for providing such solutions.
2) Some player groups ended up relying on mods (because they clearly enhanced gameplay, or made gameplay easier or more convenient) to the extent that mods became required (for most players) for gameplay past a certain point (i.e., end-game). In other words, playing with/against players using mods, required the use of mods in order to compete (or have a better chance at success).
3) Security is always a tremendous risk with user mods, especially modding community sites. There has been malware proliferation even among the 'big' (most notable and commonly accepted as 'reputable') mod database sites. This puts extra responsibility on the end-user, which means extra time and money needed by the end-user.
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In other words, no offense to Cryptic, but I don't care that you are over-burdened right now. It is your paid responsibility to provide us with functional UI, and to implement enhancements as/when gameplay requires and/or we desire.
Thank you for your consideration of this request, and apologies for ruffling any feathers with my wording.
I welcome all opinions in a debate like this feel that all opinions have a place. My response is meant to be respectful and not meant to be a Troll........
You do want to use mods then it is your choice. No one is going to make you use them. I have a member in my WOW guild that refuses mods. We playfully call him the Amish Gamer. Although we did get him to use Guild2Guild. Honestly though there are those of us who think the current UI plain sucks. The Maps suck. The exchange sucks. etc., etc.
Make the game to easy? How's that? By giving us more information about our characters? By allowing us to customize our button arrangement to be able to maximize our button pushing? By allowing us to better search the Exchange more efficiently? By better mapping? Yeah....that is going to make the game so much easier to play. I dont think so...all it is going to do is make the game more efficient for me.
Updating? Big whoopie doo. Takes me just a few minutes to do it.
Security problem? Rubbish. If you dont know how to secure your PC then dont take it out on those of us who do.
Bottom line is that Blizzard created the greatest MMO ever. One of the reasons is the Modding community. I firmly believe that they had a large part to do with the games success because they allowed players to customize their game experience. LOTRO..AION...CONAN...no mods....and their fan base is minimal at best. I hope that Cryptic doesn't listen to the nay sayer's and let the modding begin.
Of course this post was done with love for you all >>HUG<<
You do want to use mods then it is your choice. No one is going to make you use them. I have a member in my WOW guild that refuses mods. We playfully call him the Amish Gamer. Although we did get him to use Guild2Guild. Honestly though there are those of us who think the current UI plain sucks. The Maps suck. The exchange sucks. etc., etc.
Find any top raiding guild in WoW that does not -require- a boss mod, DPS/HPS meter, and a mod for whatever DKP system they use. (There is no raiding guild that does -not- require certain mods.)
How old is WoW, and how long have those mods been around, yet never incorporated into the game's default UI? (Modding has become an excuse for the developer not to develop their UI.)
Make the game to easy? How's that? By giving us more information about our characters? By allowing us to customize our button arrangement to be able to maximize our button pushing? By allowing us to better search the Exchange more efficiently? By better mapping? Yeah....that is going to make the game so much easier to play. I dont think so...all it is going to do is make the game more efficient for me.
Timer bars, DPS/HPS meters, boss mods. I would love to see these in STO, but I would rather have them come from Cryptic. Once they exist, everyone who uses them gains a competitive advantage, and everyone who does not use them will find it more difficult (certainly less convenient) to play the same way.
Updating? Big whoopie doo. Takes me just a few minutes to do it.
As you are going to use anecdotal evidence... I know some people who require 30+ mins to update all of their different mods. And when I look at their UIs, I see a completely different experience than what I had on my screen.
Security problem? Rubbish. If you dont know how to secure your PC then dont take it out on those of us who do.
Why should I have to pay extra money and time to secure my PC beyond what is required to use the STO game client? This is the same as saying, if you don't have the money (or know-how), you can't keep up with us, sorry. Even though we're all playing the same game.
Bottom line is that Blizzard created the greatest MMO ever. One of the reasons is the Modding community. I firmly believe that they had a large part to do with the games success because they allowed players to customize their game experience. LOTRO..AION...CONAN...no mods....and their fan base is minimal at best. I hope that Cryptic doesn't listen to the nay sayer's and let the modding begin.
By what criteria are you evaluating the 'greatest', or a 'greatness' scale? If you meant to say 'most financially successful', then yes, I agree. Whether or not it has to do with the modding community is speculation, but I do agree that it could be a factor.
Which is why I suggest that Cryptic accept -submissions-, but retain total control over implementation. That gives us the best of both worlds without any risk.
I guess I forgot to include this from the other thread:
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If Cryptic does wish to pursue end-user mods, I would prefer if they simply accepted end-user mod -submissions-. So Cryptic can pick and choose which ideas they would like to incorporate into the UI, at no risk to the users. Responsibility for a version-control and submission database site could be left with the end-user modding community, but it would be up to Cryptic to implement them into the UI.
So, no implementation of mods by players -- we all use the same UI (+ options) given to us by Cryptic -- but players can submit mods to Cryptic for consideration.
This means that Cryptic would need to release some details on their code-base, or at least an acceptable standard or format for code submissions (e.g., LUA).
In this way, the responsibility for feedback is appropriately placed on players, the responsibility for implementation remains with Cryptic, and the responsibility for development (of feedback ideas) is shared appropriately between both Cryptic and the players.
===
Summary:
end-users can create mods but cannot actually implement them into the game
end-user mod submission/project/database sites
Cryptic reviews all mod submissions and decides which ones should be implemented into the game (or offered on the official STO site)
Let me just say....Mods are a choice...not a requirement to have. As a player, if you dont want mods, dont use them. There are those of us who want to customize the game. While most of the mods I want are convenience mods (map, exchange, etc) I would like to know what works best for my build. I am still trying to figure out what the hell astrometrics does.....GAH!
You dont want mods? Great! I do. Waiting for Cryptic to do them is like watching a bridge rust. Takes to long. Cryptic has way to many other issues to deal with.
I forgot to add that WOW is the greatest MMO ever. 10 million players means the gaming community says it is. 150 million dollars a month, at it's peak, tells me it is financially also.
Let me just say....Mods are a choice...not a requirement to have. As a player, if you dont want mods, dont use them.
As stated above, mods become a requirement when the default UI falls so far behind that gameplay revolves around the mods.
Once again, I would refer you to the WoW raiding guilds, and the mods they require their raiders to have.
This 'choice' almost becomes the same as the choice of whether or not to play the game; raiders need certain mods in order to see the whole game (i.e., progress beyond 'normal' content).
I forgot to add that WOW is the greatest MMO ever. 10 million players means the gaming community says it is. 150 million dollars a month, at it's peak, tells me it is financially also.
Again, can you please define 'greatest'? I see a description, but not a definition.
Yes, it is the most financially successful. But 'greatest'? How?
This is like me saying "Green is the best colour!". Well... 'best' in what way?
Consider that I have played WoW -- in a raiding guild (consistently within the top 10 guilds on the server in terms of progress, as one of the top raiders, with among the top DPS on the server) -- for 4 years, yet I like it far less than other MMOs. It was successful at taking my money, but not my vote as 'best'.
I would love to see at some time in the nearish future the ability to modify the appearance of the UI files. Not the basic functions, not the add-ons you are referring to in WoW, just appearance. All you have to do is look at Everquest's system. It is impossible to modify any of the files to give you an advantage. Unless of course you consider making things look better or show all your pertinent stats in one place instead of several to be an advantage.
For example, why can't I have three hotbars AND show my BO headshots at the same time? Why must there be mulltiple UI pieces instead of combining several into one window? Why can't I just redesign the look to be more like an actual LCARS display?
I fail to see how any of that would give me an advantage over another player that doesn't use the same modded files.
I would love to see at some time in the nearish future the ability to modify the appearance of the UI files. Not the basic functions, not the add-ons you are referring to in WoW, just appearance.
For reference, I do not consider 'skinning' (pure appearance/layout customisation) the same as 'modding'. I have absolutely no problem with allowing end-users the ability to customise this. (Although I foresee C-Store opportunities, similar to ship costume variants.)
I only have a problem with mods that have anything to do with game data (appearance, display, and/or formulation/calculation) and/or functionality.
I am against UI modding beyond the game given options, too.
The game already allows us to customize the UI a lot. This could be expanded, some things are not yet possible. For example I would like a more hotkey bars as well, it is not possible to squeeze all skills into the box.
Modding above that might for sure add functionality or improve looks, but what always starts nice and innocently has an unfortunate tendency to become a must-have in competitive pvp environments or required for raiding or altering the usual gameplay considerably.
Just one example, I am sure people could write a mod parsing the combat log that shows me someone's cooldowns on the UI after they activated a skill.
I can perfectly understand DeWitt's desires, but allowing 3rd party modifications of any kind means opening Pandora's box. I can only confirm Rothnang's observations regarding WoW.
You would be content with the horse and cart whilst others strive to create the race car. Thats your choice, and no one will take it away from you, but likewise you should not advocate what should and should not be done in game. Ultimatley your arguement for a generic UI curtials the creativity of the community if UI modification were to be allowed.
You state that every raid guild in WoW requires mods for the end game content, but the fact you neglected to mention is that the game itself offers nothing BUT raiding! If you have nothing to do but raid, then why not do it as efficiently as possible?
You are not changing the underlying game mechanics, you are not exploiting the content, so there should be no reason why these modifications are not allowed. Finally, raiding guilds and their recruitment policies in WOW or any other game has nothing to do with the matter at hand. If a raiding guild has a requirement where a mod is required, then that is their choice. If they feel that mods allow them to experience the game in a way that was not possible before, then so be it.
But forcing Cryptic to stop modding and curtail creativity so that a small section can feel safe in the knowledge that everybody is the same and no-one has a "perceived" advantage is wrong.
You would be content with the horse and cart whilst others strive to create the race car. Thats your choice, and no one will take it away from you, but likewise you should not advocate what should and should not be done in game. Ultimatley your arguement for a generic UI curtials the creativity of the community if UI modification were to be allowed.
Actually, I am not arguing for a generic UI. I am arguing that -Cryptic- should be responsible for building us the race car. And they can do this by listening to us and accepting the parts we design (or even craft).
If you look at my suggestion above, you would see that I do advocate modding, but in a controlled fashion, such that end-users cannot change the game, but they can submit developed changes to Cryptic, cutting their own development time in half.
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In other words, why should the developer -not- be responsible for developing and improving the UI?
A fundamental misconception here by pro-modders, is that 'no mods' equates to 'no UI development'. My argument, however, is that the developer -- Cryptic -- should be responsible for UI development (with modders' help) such that we would not need mods.
I am against UI modding beyond the game given options, too.
The game already allows us to customize the UI a lot. This could be expanded, some things are not yet possible. For example I would like a more hotkey bars as well, it is not possible to squeeze all skills into the box.
Modding above that might for sure add functionality or improve looks, but what always starts nice and innocently has an unfortunate tendency to become a must-have in competitive pvp environments or required for raiding or altering the usual gameplay considerably.
Just one example, I am sure people could write a mod parsing the combat log that shows me someone's cooldowns on the UI after they activated a skill.
I can perfectly understand DeWitt's desires, but allowing 3rd party modifications of any kind means opening Pandora's box. I can only confirm Rothnang's observations regarding WoW.
Note: Caps are only meant to emphasize my point and not meant as yelling.
This game, while is great Star Trek, sucks buttocks all around the information area. GIVE ME A BETTER EXCHANGE....GIVE ME BETTER BARS......GIVE ME BETTER MAPS.....GIVE ME WAYS TO EASILY DISCERN WHAT IS BEST FOR MY TOONS. Cryptic is not doing a damn thing to correct this....why?.....cause they dont have time. By the time they do....I will have all my character slots at Admiral 5...then what good is it? I want it NOW. The only way to do that is to allow modding for these things. Those of you who want to keep this crappy UI please do....but give me my mods. My game time is limited as it is with working two jobs and all I want is some things to make my time more efficient. I want this information at my fingertips or easily found. Hell....Cryptic doesn't even have a comprehensive site that will explain what all that science station TRIBBLE does for what class, profession, etc.
Those of you who dont want mods are probably those who were kicked out of WOW Raids because you weren't geared well enough or sucked at the fights. Man up and learn from that. I would be willing to bet that if you were in a STO Raid, and sucked, you would be kicked out also. At least with a mod you can tell how and why you sucked and do something about it.
Actually, I am not arguing for a generic UI. I am arguing that -Cryptic- should be responsible for building us the race car. And they can do this by listening to us and accepting the parts we design (or even craft).
If you look at my suggestion above, you would see that I do advocate modding, but in a controlled fashion, such that end-users cannot change the game, but they can submit developed changes to Cryptic, cutting their own development time in half.
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In other words, why should the developer -not- be responsible for developing and improving the UI?
A fundamental misconception here by pro-modders, is that 'no mods' equates to 'no UI development'. My argument, however, is that the developer -- Cryptic -- should be responsible for UI development (with modders' help) such that we would not need mods.
1- Cryptic doesn't have time
2- Cryptic will not do it within a reasonable amount of time.
Those of you who dont want mods are probably those who were kicked out of WOW Raids because you weren't geared well enough or sucked at the fights. Man up and learn from that. I would be willing to bet that if you were in a STO Raid, and sucked, you would be kicked out also. At least with a mod you can tell how and why you sucked and do something about it.
More Hugs >>hug<<
First of all, adding a smiley face or a 'hug' at the end of a personal insult (or baseless assumption) is still a personal insult.
Second, I personally was in the top 3 DPS (and overall damage dealt) in every single WoW (WotLK) raid I have been in, 25-man and 10-man. (In many of them, I was #1.) I can link you some WoL logs if you wish (dated from November/December 2009, before I quit WoW.)
I used mods because I needed them, because the default UI was left behind, because Blizzard had ceded all responsibility for their UI. Without those mods (RoguePowerPars, Natur Enemy Combat Bars, OmniCC cooldown timers, X-Perl), I would not have been able to perform as well as I have. Without certain mods -- DeadlyBossMods, Omen Threat Meter, and a DPS/HPS meter -- I would not have been allowed to raid at all.
(I also used oRA2 and CT, which provided further raid functionality, as well as SexyMap to help with minimap clutter.)
(New/Fresh) Raid content in WoW is now designed around performance on the lowest level of detail, with little margin for error. This level of performance cannot be achieved without these mods.
It is very frustrating when a new raider comes to the team without mods like these, and our overall performance suffers because of some players' lack of computer know-how to download, update, and maintain while also maintaining account security. (We have had many TRIBBLE accounts over the years.) Especially when these same players are genuinely good at the game, but without the mods they cannot eke out those extra few numbers that make the difference. (Again, in new raid content, where no one has the gear required to complete with ease.)
It is also frustrating to be forced to depend upon the authors of these mods, whenever a new game version is rolled out, or some new encounter breaks the functionality.
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STO is a breath of fresh air in comparison, where results are more important than performance. Regardless of how STO raid content will be designed in the future, I like not having to rely on third-party mods or their authors, or having lengthy update time separate from the game client updates.
I want enhanced functionality, but only if everyone gets it at the same time, and only if it all comes from the same source that I can trust to do it correctly and securely.
1- Cryptic doesn't have time
2- Cryptic will not do it within a reasonable amount of time.
And what is wrong with my compromise solution? Allowing end-users to create mods (but not implement them), and let Cryptic handle the verification and implementation. That significantly cuts the development time, and streamlines the feedback process.
And what is wrong with my compromise solution? Allowing end-users to create mods (but not implement them), and let Cryptic handle the verification and implementation. That significantly cuts the development time, and streamlines the feedback process.
Because you are still relying on Cryptic to do work. They dont have time. Besides....letting the modders go at it will offer a plethora of mods that Cryptic can choose from to add as a permanent part of the UI. The fans themselves will have a say by making certain popular. One more thing....there are a lot more modders out there than you think and by not allowing them to do their stuff you are limiting the creativity.
Because you are still relying on Cryptic to do work. They dont have time. Besides....letting the modders go at it will offer a plethora of mods that Cryptic can choose from to add as a permanent part of the UI. The fans themselves will have a say by making certain popular. One more thing....there are a lot more modders out there than you think and by not allowing them to do their stuff you are limiting the creativity.
Again, still several assumptions here:
1) An assumption about Cryptic's priority with regard to UI.
2) An assumption about my personal knowledge of modders or modding communities.
The modding submission/database sites that I suggested could have voting options. That allows the fans themselves to have a say in which they would prefer to see.
1) An assumption about Cryptic's priority with regard to UI.
2) An assumption about my personal knowledge of modders or modding communities.
The modding submission/database sites that I suggested could have voting options. That allows the fans themselves to have a say in which they would prefer to see.
1) Everything is an assumption.
2) How in the hell can they vote on something they can't try?
GAH! I feel like I am arguing politics.
You do bring up some good points but I can't agree that waiting on Cryptic is the answer. I have an Admiral and a Captain. If I had not taken my time I would be maxed out now. Then it would be too late. This is something that Cryptic needs to allow and needs to do so immediately if they do not want this game to fall by the wayside. And it will if something isn't done with the UI and End Game. Which do you think they will work on first?
Not everything is an assumption. 2 + 2 = 4, for example, is a rule, not an assumption.
Furthermore, some assumptions have some evidence for support, while others have none. Your assumption about Cryptic's priorities might have some evidence, based upon Engineering Reports. But your assumption about my personal knowledge or thinking has no evidence for support.
2) How in the hell can they vote on something they can't try?
How do players currently voice their interest or support in changes? Polls. How does Cryptic currently gauge feedback on proposed changes? Tribble Test Shard.
Build mod submission into Tribble, probably using a separate game client (for Tribble access only) that can be modded. Then build polls into this client (or server).
This is something that Cryptic needs to allow and needs to do so immediately if they do not want this game to fall by the wayside.
Again, this is an assumption with little evidence for support. There is little evidence to prove that this particular piece of development -- UI enhancement -- will cause the game to 'fall by the wayside' (or shut down) without immediate response.
It has been my experience in IT development and project management -- yes, I am a programmer and I have tinkered with game mod programming myself -- that customers are just like Star Trek starship captains: they want everything their way and they want it right now or yesterday (to paraphrase the legendary Scotty, from TNG 'Relics'). That demand doesn't necessarily need to be satisfied in order for the customer to be satisfied overall with the product. Also remember that, not every demand is 'right' for the overall product.
We are paying Cryptic for development. Some of us are willing to help, for free. But not all of us wish to risk substandard or insecure development. We pay for a service, we want that service contract fulfilled by the provider, whom we can hold accountable for unsatisfactory work. We cannot hold volunteers accountable.
It is very frustrating when a new raider comes to the team without mods like these, and our overall performance suffers because of some players' lack of computer know-how to download, update, and maintain while also maintaining account security. (We have had many TRIBBLE accounts over the years.) Especially when these same players are genuinely good at the game, but without the mods they cannot eke out those extra few numbers that make the difference. (Again, in new raid content, where no one has the gear required to complete with ease.)
With the wealth of information on the internet, in forums, guides and just basic chat, there is absolutley no way a person would get to a stage where he or she is about raid in WotLK without knowing what the best mods would be. I mean it is just impossible. This point about "new players" is just not feasible. As for account security, I argue this is also a moot point.
Anybody who is worth their salt should know what this entails, and what sites should and should not be trusted. Hacking of accounts cannot and should not be soley blamed on mods. By your arguement, anybody using the popular mods is at risk and will have their accounts TRIBBLE, and that is rather insulting, not only for the users of said mods, but for their developers as well.
It is also frustrating to be forced to depend upon the authors of these mods, whenever a new game version is rolled out, or some new encounter breaks the functionality.
===
STO is a breath of fresh air in comparison, where results are more important than performance. Regardless of how STO raid content will be designed in the future, I like not having to rely on third-party mods or their authors, or having lengthy update time separate from the game client updates.
I want enhanced functionality, but only if everyone gets it at the same time, and only if it all comes from the same source that I can trust to do it correctly and securely.
I agree with you on this point. I too become disappointed when a mod that I loved and cheerised is no longer updated due to RL issues by the developer. But I am also thankful that I had the chance to actually use something that enchanced my gaming experience.
One persons idea of enhanced functionality is another person's game breaking nightmare. Pushing out a global addon from one source at one time is not something I would ever advocate for obvious reasons. Mods allow you to modularize deployment and testing. You have alot of faith in game developers if you think they get things right the first time, every time.
With the wealth of information on the internet, in forums, guides and just basic chat, there is absolutley no way a person would get to a stage where he or she is about raid in WotLK without knowing what the best mods would be. I mean it is just impossible. This point about "new players" is just not feasible. As for account security, I argue this is also a moot point.
Anybody who is worth their salt should know what this entails, and what sites should and should not be trusted. Hacking of accounts cannot and should not be soley blamed on mods. By your arguement, anybody using the popular mods is at risk and will have their accounts TRIBBLE, and that is rather insulting, not only for the users of said mods, but for their developers as well.
Your first point admits that players will be required 1) to research and 2) to acquire 'the best mods'. Why should someone be required to do that in order to compete?
Your second point about security misses my original point. It is not so much lack of security within the mods themselves (which is still a risk, but a low risk depending upon the code base and format), but it is about the security of the modding sites, which are third-party controlled and operated. These sites have proliferated malware, whether intentionally or unintentionally, on several occasions.
As a player of -STO-, why should I need to worry about security beyond what I use to download, upgrade, and maintain the STO game client? Why should I need to worry about these third-party sites? If these mods are required for functionality, I will definitely need to worry about it. That is not a worry I want.
You have alot of faith in game developers if you think they get things right the first time, every time.
I never said this. I did say that we pay game developers for the enhancement and functionality we need, and because of that contract we can hold them accountable for unsatisfactory work. Which means they have steady incentives for working to get things right, especially when they initially get things wrong. We cannot hold third-party volunteers accountable for anything, nor do they get things right the first time every time.
Your first point admits that players will be required 1) to research and 2) to acquire 'the best mods'. Why should someone be required to do that in order to compete?
Why wouldn't they? This, like everything else is a hobby or sport. You play and pay to compete, sometimes against the computer and sometimes against another person. Do you consider people who invest in aluminium bats to have an unfair advantage against those who still use wooden ones when they both have the option to use either type?
Your second point about security misses my original point. It is not so much lack of security within the mods themselves (which is still a risk, but a low risk depending upon the code base and format), but it is about the security of the modding sites, which are third-party controlled and operated. These sites have proliferated malware, whether intentionally or unintentionally, on several occasions.
I have been part of the Curse community for nearly 4 years, and I have yet to see any hint of malware / spyware on my machine and I have downloaded mods from them for WoW and WAR. As stated before, internet security is the users responsiblity and they, as such, should take the time and effort to ensure they are using secure sites. I am not advocating for Curse, but highlighting that with some common sense, mods, mod sites and security can go hand in hand. I would be interested to see which sites actually do spread malware, and how long they were active for.
As a player of -STO-, why should I need to worry about security beyond what I use to download, upgrade, and maintain the STO game client? Why should I need to worry about these third-party sites? If these mods are required for functionality, I will definitely need to worry about it. That is not a worry I want.
As stated before, you don't need to, but others would like the choice to extend their functionality and play with aluminium bats rather than wooden ones. You can quite happily carry on waiting for Cryptic to enchance the UI, but it could be a very long wait.
I never said this. I did say that we pay game developers for the enhancement and functionality we need, and because of that contract we can hold them accountable for unsatisfactory work. Which means they have steady incentives for working to get things right, especially when they initially get things wrong. We cannot hold third-party volunteers accountable for anything, nor do they get things right the first time every time.
I apologize for mis-quoting, but my arguement stands. We may pay them for enchancement and functionality, but what one person considers an enhancement, another will consider a travesity. One glove, especially when it comes to MMO's, does not fit all and having a game developer try to push a UI enchancement on everybody will cause more problems than it intended to fix. We also pay them for enhancement and functionality released in a timely manner, and this is where Cryptic will always fail, whether we wish to admit it or not.
Mods allow you to modularize deployment and testing. This is a fact. If any UI update were to be released by Cryptic, it will be part of a patch that could never be removed by the end user, ultimatley locking them into place. If a mod crashes my game, so be it, but it has only crashed MY game and no-one elses. If an UI mod is released by Cryptic it will affect every STO user under the sun.
Why wouldn't they? This, like everything else is a hobby or sport. You play and pay to compete, sometimes against the computer and sometimes against another person. Do you consider people who invest in aluminium bats to have an unfair advantage against those who still use wooden ones when they both have the option to use either type?
This analogy is not accurate, because there is no central provider of a hobby or sport, and we are not required to pay to play. STO is solely provided by one provider, and we must pay that provider to play STO.
Why are these options not presented by the game provider? Why must I go to a source separate from the provider, when I am paying the provider for their game?
I have been part of the Curse community for nearly 4 years, and I have yet to see any hint of malware / spyware on my machine and I have downloaded mods from them for WoW and WAR. As stated before, internet security is the users responsiblity and they, as such, should take the time and effort to ensure they are using secure sites. I am not advocating for Curse, but highlighting that with some common sense, mods, mod sites and security can go hand in hand. I would be interested to see which sites actually do spread malware, and how long they were active for.
Not only was Curse hit by one, but their updater was also subject to spyware proliferation for a brief time. Furthermore, ui.worldofwar.net (another major WoW modding site) was frequently subject to attacks as well as proliferation. I, personally, have never had problems, because I spend hours going to each author's individual web site. But why should I have to invest that time to ensure security, when Cryptic can merely provide it all themselves?
As stated before, you don't need to, but others would like the choice to extend their functionality and play with aluminium bats rather than wooden ones. You can quite happily carry on waiting for Cryptic to enchance the UI, but it could be a very long wait.
Again, this is misleading. Yes, I can 'choose' not to use functionality enhancements, but the consequence of that 'choice' is that I can no longer compete with other players in certain aspects of the game, as elaborated in several posts above. This 'choice' becomes more involuntary than voluntary, and I argue that this is unfair to paying customers.
I apologize for mis-quoting, but my arguement stands. We may pay them for enchancement and functionality, but what one person considers an enhancement, another will consider a travesity. One glove, especially when it comes to MMO's, does not fit all and having a game developer try to push a UI enchancement on everybody will cause more problems than it intended to fix. We also pay them for enhancement and functionality released in a timely manner, and this is where Cryptic will always fail, whether we wish to admit it or not.
Mods allow you to modularize deployment and testing. This is a fact. If any UI update were to be released by Cryptic, it will be part of a patch that could never be removed by the end user, ultimatley locking them into place. If a mod crashes my game, so be it, but it has only crashed MY game and no-one elses. If an UI mod is released by Cryptic it will affect every STO user under the sun.
Again, I never said that Cryptic-released mods (as I proposed in a previous post) should be mandatory for all end-users. I did say that they can offer mods on their own site. I also proposed that end-users can submit mods, but cannot implement them into the game themselves.
In this way, end-users still have choices, end-users can still offer development and feedback. But Cryptic retains control over the implementation (fidelity) and security. Win-win.
All of this is not an assumption. You assume it is an assumption. I have actually conversed with a GM who told me that UI is not the most pressing aspect of the game that Cryptic developers have to deal with.
Develop + submit + Cryptic Evaluate + Cryptic Incorporate = Not getting done in a timely fashion
These UI issues are a must fix and a must fix now. Look at how many complaints there are these forums. This is a very important issue. A lot of people are frustrated. Me included. We need the modders to start on this stuff and let us, the players, test them. This saves Cryptic a ton of research time. Let us deal with finding the bugs for the modders. Let them deal with the fixes. Then, when Cryptic has time, they can take the finished products they want and incorporate them into the game UI.
Now....about your WOW greatness.....grats. However, if you didn't like the mod requirements then you should have left that guild and form your own Amish raiding guild. However, I think that would have failed miserably because no one had mods. Blizzard set up those battles in such a way that you CANT conquer the instances without the information that mods give you. I have a guild in WOW and have had for nearly 7 (yes....SEVEN) years. I know what raiding is like. I did not like all the mod requirements and "L33tn3ss" that went with it. I stopped raiding.
Just because you dont want to wait for others to download mods or you dont want to spend the time to update mods or dont want to have to make sure your computer is safe. That is YOUR decision and your decision should not effect those who do want mods and want them now.
Now....about your WOW greatness.....grats. However, if you didn't like the mod requirements then you should have left that guild and form your own Amish raiding guild. However, I think that would have failed miserably because no one had mods. Blizzard set up those battles in such a way that you CANT conquer the instances without the information that mods give you. I have a guild in WOW and have had for nearly 7 (yes....SEVEN) years. I know what raiding is like. I did not like all the mod requirements and "L33tn3ss" that went with it. I stopped raiding.
This here is precisely my point. Why should players be punished for not having mods -- all because the developer has ceded responsibility for their UI? Because, as you have very clearly admitted, players are being prevented from progressing, from seeing all content, because the game developers intentionally left functionality updates in the hands of modders.
I do not want to see this happen in STO. I want STO's developers to provide the functionality, and design their content for that functionality.
I think some of you are against this purely based on your experience with WoW. I have never played it (well I did try it but it got uninstalled within an hour of logging on) but my experience with the kind of custom UIs you can make in EQ1 are nothing in comparison. No information those UI mods display is normally NOT available in another UI window. I don't want the WoW add-ons either, but surely a motivated player can do better than a paid dev/artist. It's true, I've seen it.
Oh and to the guy that said we can already customize the UI a lot already, moving windows around does not customization make.
Bottom line....Cryptic does not think the UI is a top priority. Several players, me included, think it should be. You want to wait until cryptic can implement UI modifications. You dont want the players to choose what mods they want but, if cryptic does it, this means that EVERYONE will have those mods without being able to choose which you want or dont want. BAH!
This discussion is a waste of time. You are too narrow minded to see the good that can be done. You only whine about raiding issues because of mods. You cry about the requirements to join a raiding guild or even enter the instance.
You are wrong. You are selfish. (another smiley)
I am done typing in this thread. If you want to carry this conversation further, in fact if anyone does, please feel free to message me in game and I will be happy to give you my ventrilo info. Unless you dont believe in voice chat because it is unfair to those that dont have a microphone.
I am usually in vent from 6-8 m-f US Central time.
And yet more hugs >>hugs matt<<
--Cap
P.S. You can also message me in game Kurk@captainsfc or Iceborg@captainsfc and I will give you the vent info.
Bottom line....Cryptic does not think the UI is a top priority. Several players, me included, think it should be. You want to wait until cryptic can implement UI modifications. You dont want the players to choose what mods they want but, if cryptic does it, this means that EVERYONE will have those mods without being able to choose which you want or dont want. BAH!
This discussion is a waste of time. You are too narrow minded to see the good that can be done. You only whine about raiding issues because of mods. You cry about the requirements to join a raiding guild or even enter the instance.
You are wrong. You are selfish. (another smiley)
Once again, calling me names and insulting me personally, then tacking on a smiley face and a 'hug' at the end, is still a personal insult. Furthermore, merely calling your opponent 'wrong' without facts to support your argument, does not win the argument for you.
This is also yet another baseless assumption about my mind and my views. If you read my previous posts, you might see that I do see the creativity of end-user mods. You might also see that I do want players to be able to choose how they wish to customise their UI.
But my proposal is that Cryptic should be the ones to offer those options, based upon submissions they get from end-user modders.
Is it not narrow-minded to ignore the harm that can be done as well as the good (or to discount a dissenting opinion with personal insults), and that there might be a suitable middle-ground between both? As for selfishness, I fail to see how desiring a fair game for all players is being selfish. Perhaps it is selfish to want access to mods that enhance gameplay, that not everyone might have access to?
I am always willing to debate any topic, but I prefer if the participants stick to the content and not resort to name-calling or baseless assumptions.
I think some of you are against this purely based on your experience with WoW. I have never played it (well I did try it but it got uninstalled within an hour of logging on) but my experience with the kind of custom UIs you can make in EQ1 are nothing in comparison. No information those UI mods display is normally NOT available in another UI window. I don't want the WoW add-ons either, but surely a motivated player can do better than a paid dev/artist. It's true, I've seen it.
Oh and to the guy that said we can already customize the UI a lot already, moving windows around does not customization make.
Oh, I agree with you -- I would like to see customisable -appearance-. But I do not want to see anything to do with functionality, game data, scripting, or formulation/calculation, unless it is controlled by Cryptic (i.e., modders can submit, but Cryptic controls the implementation).
Watch your tone CaptainSFC and keep your assumptions to yourself.
You are hugging people and then belittle them?
Nobody can mod in all what you are missing from the game, especially "content". That is also another topic.
You already said what you fear, and I guess you are right about it: Cryptic has a lot of better and more important things to do than to allow users more UI customization of their Engine in CO and STO.
What would UI modding add? Only cosmetic changes of the UI? It won't stop there. It never did. LUA scripts would allow far more than that. People also assume the engine is mod-friendly and Cryptic just has to switch modding "on", which might not be the case.
Modding is not fine and dandy, the mod culture that popped up because of every Joe Average's favorite DIKU-MUD derivate called WoW is extremely unhealthy, and game companies have done well not to jump on the bandwaggon of silliness. If you think modding improved WoW or other games, no, it caused a bunch of problems including making the games dumber, simpler and semi-automated and players being unable to play and especially raid on patch days because their mods had issues with the latest version. Just wonderful.
Comments
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I do not want to see user modding of anything in STO, with the exception of the current one-line command keybinds we can make. I want the responsibility for functional UI to remain with the paid developer.
I played WoW for several years, and while I enjoyed the freedom it gave the modding community, it just created headaches for end-users in three ways:
1) Required end-users to update constantly whenever a new game patch was released. And heaven forbid a modder quit the game, forcing end-users to look elsewhere for their solutions, because the developer had ceded responsibility for providing such solutions.
2) Some player groups ended up relying on mods (because they clearly enhanced gameplay, or made gameplay easier or more convenient) to the extent that mods became required (for most players) for gameplay past a certain point (i.e., end-game). In other words, playing with/against players using mods, required the use of mods in order to compete (or have a better chance at success).
3) Security is always a tremendous risk with user mods, especially modding community sites. There has been malware proliferation even among the 'big' (most notable and commonly accepted as 'reputable') mod database sites. This puts extra responsibility on the end-user, which means extra time and money needed by the end-user.
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In other words, no offense to Cryptic, but I don't care that you are over-burdened right now. It is your paid responsibility to provide us with functional UI, and to implement enhancements as/when gameplay requires and/or we desire.
Thank you for your consideration of this request, and apologies for ruffling any feathers with my wording.
You do want to use mods then it is your choice. No one is going to make you use them. I have a member in my WOW guild that refuses mods. We playfully call him the Amish Gamer. Although we did get him to use Guild2Guild. Honestly though there are those of us who think the current UI plain sucks. The Maps suck. The exchange sucks. etc., etc.
Make the game to easy? How's that? By giving us more information about our characters? By allowing us to customize our button arrangement to be able to maximize our button pushing? By allowing us to better search the Exchange more efficiently? By better mapping? Yeah....that is going to make the game so much easier to play. I dont think so...all it is going to do is make the game more efficient for me.
Updating? Big whoopie doo. Takes me just a few minutes to do it.
Security problem? Rubbish. If you dont know how to secure your PC then dont take it out on those of us who do.
Bottom line is that Blizzard created the greatest MMO ever. One of the reasons is the Modding community. I firmly believe that they had a large part to do with the games success because they allowed players to customize their game experience. LOTRO..AION...CONAN...no mods....and their fan base is minimal at best. I hope that Cryptic doesn't listen to the nay sayer's and let the modding begin.
Of course this post was done with love for you all >>HUG<<
--Cap
How old is WoW, and how long have those mods been around, yet never incorporated into the game's default UI? (Modding has become an excuse for the developer not to develop their UI.)
Timer bars, DPS/HPS meters, boss mods. I would love to see these in STO, but I would rather have them come from Cryptic. Once they exist, everyone who uses them gains a competitive advantage, and everyone who does not use them will find it more difficult (certainly less convenient) to play the same way.
As you are going to use anecdotal evidence... I know some people who require 30+ mins to update all of their different mods. And when I look at their UIs, I see a completely different experience than what I had on my screen.
Why should I have to pay extra money and time to secure my PC beyond what is required to use the STO game client? This is the same as saying, if you don't have the money (or know-how), you can't keep up with us, sorry. Even though we're all playing the same game.
By what criteria are you evaluating the 'greatest', or a 'greatness' scale? If you meant to say 'most financially successful', then yes, I agree. Whether or not it has to do with the modding community is speculation, but I do agree that it could be a factor.
Which is why I suggest that Cryptic accept -submissions-, but retain total control over implementation. That gives us the best of both worlds without any risk.
===
If Cryptic does wish to pursue end-user mods, I would prefer if they simply accepted end-user mod -submissions-. So Cryptic can pick and choose which ideas they would like to incorporate into the UI, at no risk to the users. Responsibility for a version-control and submission database site could be left with the end-user modding community, but it would be up to Cryptic to implement them into the UI.
So, no implementation of mods by players -- we all use the same UI (+ options) given to us by Cryptic -- but players can submit mods to Cryptic for consideration.
This means that Cryptic would need to release some details on their code-base, or at least an acceptable standard or format for code submissions (e.g., LUA).
In this way, the responsibility for feedback is appropriately placed on players, the responsibility for implementation remains with Cryptic, and the responsibility for development (of feedback ideas) is shared appropriately between both Cryptic and the players.
===
Summary:
You dont want mods? Great! I do. Waiting for Cryptic to do them is like watching a bridge rust. Takes to long. Cryptic has way to many other issues to deal with.
I forgot to add that WOW is the greatest MMO ever. 10 million players means the gaming community says it is. 150 million dollars a month, at it's peak, tells me it is financially also.
--Cap
Once again, I would refer you to the WoW raiding guilds, and the mods they require their raiders to have.
This 'choice' almost becomes the same as the choice of whether or not to play the game; raiders need certain mods in order to see the whole game (i.e., progress beyond 'normal' content).
I do not want to see that happen to STO.
Again, can you please define 'greatest'? I see a description, but not a definition.
Yes, it is the most financially successful. But 'greatest'? How?
This is like me saying "Green is the best colour!". Well... 'best' in what way?
Consider that I have played WoW -- in a raiding guild (consistently within the top 10 guilds on the server in terms of progress, as one of the top raiders, with among the top DPS on the server) -- for 4 years, yet I like it far less than other MMOs. It was successful at taking my money, but not my vote as 'best'.
For example, why can't I have three hotbars AND show my BO headshots at the same time? Why must there be mulltiple UI pieces instead of combining several into one window? Why can't I just redesign the look to be more like an actual LCARS display?
I fail to see how any of that would give me an advantage over another player that doesn't use the same modded files.
I only have a problem with mods that have anything to do with game data (appearance, display, and/or formulation/calculation) and/or functionality.
The game already allows us to customize the UI a lot. This could be expanded, some things are not yet possible. For example I would like a more hotkey bars as well, it is not possible to squeeze all skills into the box.
Modding above that might for sure add functionality or improve looks, but what always starts nice and innocently has an unfortunate tendency to become a must-have in competitive pvp environments or required for raiding or altering the usual gameplay considerably.
Just one example, I am sure people could write a mod parsing the combat log that shows me someone's cooldowns on the UI after they activated a skill.
I can perfectly understand DeWitt's desires, but allowing 3rd party modifications of any kind means opening Pandora's box. I can only confirm Rothnang's observations regarding WoW.
You would be content with the horse and cart whilst others strive to create the race car. Thats your choice, and no one will take it away from you, but likewise you should not advocate what should and should not be done in game. Ultimatley your arguement for a generic UI curtials the creativity of the community if UI modification were to be allowed.
You state that every raid guild in WoW requires mods for the end game content, but the fact you neglected to mention is that the game itself offers nothing BUT raiding! If you have nothing to do but raid, then why not do it as efficiently as possible?
You are not changing the underlying game mechanics, you are not exploiting the content, so there should be no reason why these modifications are not allowed. Finally, raiding guilds and their recruitment policies in WOW or any other game has nothing to do with the matter at hand. If a raiding guild has a requirement where a mod is required, then that is their choice. If they feel that mods allow them to experience the game in a way that was not possible before, then so be it.
But forcing Cryptic to stop modding and curtail creativity so that a small section can feel safe in the knowledge that everybody is the same and no-one has a "perceived" advantage is wrong.
If you look at my suggestion above, you would see that I do advocate modding, but in a controlled fashion, such that end-users cannot change the game, but they can submit developed changes to Cryptic, cutting their own development time in half.
===
In other words, why should the developer -not- be responsible for developing and improving the UI?
A fundamental misconception here by pro-modders, is that 'no mods' equates to 'no UI development'. My argument, however, is that the developer -- Cryptic -- should be responsible for UI development (with modders' help) such that we would not need mods.
Note: Caps are only meant to emphasize my point and not meant as yelling.
This game, while is great Star Trek, sucks buttocks all around the information area. GIVE ME A BETTER EXCHANGE....GIVE ME BETTER BARS......GIVE ME BETTER MAPS.....GIVE ME WAYS TO EASILY DISCERN WHAT IS BEST FOR MY TOONS. Cryptic is not doing a damn thing to correct this....why?.....cause they dont have time. By the time they do....I will have all my character slots at Admiral 5...then what good is it? I want it NOW. The only way to do that is to allow modding for these things. Those of you who want to keep this crappy UI please do....but give me my mods. My game time is limited as it is with working two jobs and all I want is some things to make my time more efficient. I want this information at my fingertips or easily found. Hell....Cryptic doesn't even have a comprehensive site that will explain what all that science station TRIBBLE does for what class, profession, etc.
Those of you who dont want mods are probably those who were kicked out of WOW Raids because you weren't geared well enough or sucked at the fights. Man up and learn from that. I would be willing to bet that if you were in a STO Raid, and sucked, you would be kicked out also. At least with a mod you can tell how and why you sucked and do something about it.
More Hugs >>hug<<
--Cap
1- Cryptic doesn't have time
2- Cryptic will not do it within a reasonable amount of time.
--Cap
Second, I personally was in the top 3 DPS (and overall damage dealt) in every single WoW (WotLK) raid I have been in, 25-man and 10-man. (In many of them, I was #1.) I can link you some WoL logs if you wish (dated from November/December 2009, before I quit WoW.)
I used mods because I needed them, because the default UI was left behind, because Blizzard had ceded all responsibility for their UI. Without those mods (RoguePowerPars, Natur Enemy Combat Bars, OmniCC cooldown timers, X-Perl), I would not have been able to perform as well as I have. Without certain mods -- DeadlyBossMods, Omen Threat Meter, and a DPS/HPS meter -- I would not have been allowed to raid at all.
(I also used oRA2 and CT, which provided further raid functionality, as well as SexyMap to help with minimap clutter.)
(New/Fresh) Raid content in WoW is now designed around performance on the lowest level of detail, with little margin for error. This level of performance cannot be achieved without these mods.
It is very frustrating when a new raider comes to the team without mods like these, and our overall performance suffers because of some players' lack of computer know-how to download, update, and maintain while also maintaining account security. (We have had many TRIBBLE accounts over the years.) Especially when these same players are genuinely good at the game, but without the mods they cannot eke out those extra few numbers that make the difference. (Again, in new raid content, where no one has the gear required to complete with ease.)
It is also frustrating to be forced to depend upon the authors of these mods, whenever a new game version is rolled out, or some new encounter breaks the functionality.
===
STO is a breath of fresh air in comparison, where results are more important than performance. Regardless of how STO raid content will be designed in the future, I like not having to rely on third-party mods or their authors, or having lengthy update time separate from the game client updates.
I want enhanced functionality, but only if everyone gets it at the same time, and only if it all comes from the same source that I can trust to do it correctly and securely.
Because you are still relying on Cryptic to do work. They dont have time. Besides....letting the modders go at it will offer a plethora of mods that Cryptic can choose from to add as a permanent part of the UI. The fans themselves will have a say by making certain popular. One more thing....there are a lot more modders out there than you think and by not allowing them to do their stuff you are limiting the creativity.
--Cap
1) An assumption about Cryptic's priority with regard to UI.
2) An assumption about my personal knowledge of modders or modding communities.
The modding submission/database sites that I suggested could have voting options. That allows the fans themselves to have a say in which they would prefer to see.
1) Everything is an assumption.
2) How in the hell can they vote on something they can't try?
GAH! I feel like I am arguing politics.
You do bring up some good points but I can't agree that waiting on Cryptic is the answer. I have an Admiral and a Captain. If I had not taken my time I would be maxed out now. Then it would be too late. This is something that Cryptic needs to allow and needs to do so immediately if they do not want this game to fall by the wayside. And it will if something isn't done with the UI and End Game. Which do you think they will work on first?
--Cap
Furthermore, some assumptions have some evidence for support, while others have none. Your assumption about Cryptic's priorities might have some evidence, based upon Engineering Reports. But your assumption about my personal knowledge or thinking has no evidence for support.
How do players currently voice their interest or support in changes? Polls. How does Cryptic currently gauge feedback on proposed changes? Tribble Test Shard.
Build mod submission into Tribble, probably using a separate game client (for Tribble access only) that can be modded. Then build polls into this client (or server).
Again, this is an assumption with little evidence for support. There is little evidence to prove that this particular piece of development -- UI enhancement -- will cause the game to 'fall by the wayside' (or shut down) without immediate response.
It has been my experience in IT development and project management -- yes, I am a programmer and I have tinkered with game mod programming myself -- that customers are just like Star Trek starship captains: they want everything their way and they want it right now or yesterday (to paraphrase the legendary Scotty, from TNG 'Relics'). That demand doesn't necessarily need to be satisfied in order for the customer to be satisfied overall with the product. Also remember that, not every demand is 'right' for the overall product.
We are paying Cryptic for development. Some of us are willing to help, for free. But not all of us wish to risk substandard or insecure development. We pay for a service, we want that service contract fulfilled by the provider, whom we can hold accountable for unsatisfactory work. We cannot hold volunteers accountable.
With the wealth of information on the internet, in forums, guides and just basic chat, there is absolutley no way a person would get to a stage where he or she is about raid in WotLK without knowing what the best mods would be. I mean it is just impossible. This point about "new players" is just not feasible. As for account security, I argue this is also a moot point.
Anybody who is worth their salt should know what this entails, and what sites should and should not be trusted. Hacking of accounts cannot and should not be soley blamed on mods. By your arguement, anybody using the popular mods is at risk and will have their accounts TRIBBLE, and that is rather insulting, not only for the users of said mods, but for their developers as well.
I agree with you on this point. I too become disappointed when a mod that I loved and cheerised is no longer updated due to RL issues by the developer. But I am also thankful that I had the chance to actually use something that enchanced my gaming experience.
One persons idea of enhanced functionality is another person's game breaking nightmare. Pushing out a global addon from one source at one time is not something I would ever advocate for obvious reasons. Mods allow you to modularize deployment and testing. You have alot of faith in game developers if you think they get things right the first time, every time.
Your second point about security misses my original point. It is not so much lack of security within the mods themselves (which is still a risk, but a low risk depending upon the code base and format), but it is about the security of the modding sites, which are third-party controlled and operated. These sites have proliferated malware, whether intentionally or unintentionally, on several occasions.
As a player of -STO-, why should I need to worry about security beyond what I use to download, upgrade, and maintain the STO game client? Why should I need to worry about these third-party sites? If these mods are required for functionality, I will definitely need to worry about it. That is not a worry I want.
I never said this. I did say that we pay game developers for the enhancement and functionality we need, and because of that contract we can hold them accountable for unsatisfactory work. Which means they have steady incentives for working to get things right, especially when they initially get things wrong. We cannot hold third-party volunteers accountable for anything, nor do they get things right the first time every time.
Why wouldn't they? This, like everything else is a hobby or sport. You play and pay to compete, sometimes against the computer and sometimes against another person. Do you consider people who invest in aluminium bats to have an unfair advantage against those who still use wooden ones when they both have the option to use either type?
I have been part of the Curse community for nearly 4 years, and I have yet to see any hint of malware / spyware on my machine and I have downloaded mods from them for WoW and WAR. As stated before, internet security is the users responsiblity and they, as such, should take the time and effort to ensure they are using secure sites. I am not advocating for Curse, but highlighting that with some common sense, mods, mod sites and security can go hand in hand. I would be interested to see which sites actually do spread malware, and how long they were active for.
As stated before, you don't need to, but others would like the choice to extend their functionality and play with aluminium bats rather than wooden ones. You can quite happily carry on waiting for Cryptic to enchance the UI, but it could be a very long wait.
I apologize for mis-quoting, but my arguement stands. We may pay them for enchancement and functionality, but what one person considers an enhancement, another will consider a travesity. One glove, especially when it comes to MMO's, does not fit all and having a game developer try to push a UI enchancement on everybody will cause more problems than it intended to fix. We also pay them for enhancement and functionality released in a timely manner, and this is where Cryptic will always fail, whether we wish to admit it or not.
Mods allow you to modularize deployment and testing. This is a fact. If any UI update were to be released by Cryptic, it will be part of a patch that could never be removed by the end user, ultimatley locking them into place. If a mod crashes my game, so be it, but it has only crashed MY game and no-one elses. If an UI mod is released by Cryptic it will affect every STO user under the sun.
Why are these options not presented by the game provider? Why must I go to a source separate from the provider, when I am paying the provider for their game?
Not only was Curse hit by one, but their updater was also subject to spyware proliferation for a brief time. Furthermore, ui.worldofwar.net (another major WoW modding site) was frequently subject to attacks as well as proliferation. I, personally, have never had problems, because I spend hours going to each author's individual web site. But why should I have to invest that time to ensure security, when Cryptic can merely provide it all themselves?
Again, this is misleading. Yes, I can 'choose' not to use functionality enhancements, but the consequence of that 'choice' is that I can no longer compete with other players in certain aspects of the game, as elaborated in several posts above. This 'choice' becomes more involuntary than voluntary, and I argue that this is unfair to paying customers.
Again, I never said that Cryptic-released mods (as I proposed in a previous post) should be mandatory for all end-users. I did say that they can offer mods on their own site. I also proposed that end-users can submit mods, but cannot implement them into the game themselves.
In this way, end-users still have choices, end-users can still offer development and feedback. But Cryptic retains control over the implementation (fidelity) and security. Win-win.
All of this is not an assumption. You assume it is an assumption. I have actually conversed with a GM who told me that UI is not the most pressing aspect of the game that Cryptic developers have to deal with.
Develop + submit + Cryptic Evaluate + Cryptic Incorporate = Not getting done in a timely fashion
These UI issues are a must fix and a must fix now. Look at how many complaints there are these forums. This is a very important issue. A lot of people are frustrated. Me included. We need the modders to start on this stuff and let us, the players, test them. This saves Cryptic a ton of research time. Let us deal with finding the bugs for the modders. Let them deal with the fixes. Then, when Cryptic has time, they can take the finished products they want and incorporate them into the game UI.
Now....about your WOW greatness.....grats. However, if you didn't like the mod requirements then you should have left that guild and form your own Amish raiding guild. However, I think that would have failed miserably because no one had mods. Blizzard set up those battles in such a way that you CANT conquer the instances without the information that mods give you. I have a guild in WOW and have had for nearly 7 (yes....SEVEN) years. I know what raiding is like. I did not like all the mod requirements and "L33tn3ss" that went with it. I stopped raiding.
Just because you dont want to wait for others to download mods or you dont want to spend the time to update mods or dont want to have to make sure your computer is safe. That is YOUR decision and your decision should not effect those who do want mods and want them now.
More hugs >>hugs<<
--Cap
I do not want to see this happen in STO. I want STO's developers to provide the functionality, and design their content for that functionality.
Oh and to the guy that said we can already customize the UI a lot already, moving windows around does not customization make.
This discussion is a waste of time. You are too narrow minded to see the good that can be done. You only whine about raiding issues because of mods. You cry about the requirements to join a raiding guild or even enter the instance.
You are wrong. You are selfish.
I am done typing in this thread. If you want to carry this conversation further, in fact if anyone does, please feel free to message me in game and I will be happy to give you my ventrilo info. Unless you dont believe in voice chat because it is unfair to those that dont have a microphone.
I am usually in vent from 6-8 m-f US Central time.
And yet more hugs >>hugs matt<<
--Cap
P.S. You can also message me in game Kurk@captainsfc or Iceborg@captainsfc and I will give you the vent info.
This is also yet another baseless assumption about my mind and my views. If you read my previous posts, you might see that I do see the creativity of end-user mods. You might also see that I do want players to be able to choose how they wish to customise their UI.
But my proposal is that Cryptic should be the ones to offer those options, based upon submissions they get from end-user modders.
Is it not narrow-minded to ignore the harm that can be done as well as the good (or to discount a dissenting opinion with personal insults), and that there might be a suitable middle-ground between both? As for selfishness, I fail to see how desiring a fair game for all players is being selfish. Perhaps it is selfish to want access to mods that enhance gameplay, that not everyone might have access to?
I am always willing to debate any topic, but I prefer if the participants stick to the content and not resort to name-calling or baseless assumptions.
You are hugging people and then belittle them?
Nobody can mod in all what you are missing from the game, especially "content". That is also another topic.
You already said what you fear, and I guess you are right about it: Cryptic has a lot of better and more important things to do than to allow users more UI customization of their Engine in CO and STO.
What would UI modding add? Only cosmetic changes of the UI? It won't stop there. It never did. LUA scripts would allow far more than that. People also assume the engine is mod-friendly and Cryptic just has to switch modding "on", which might not be the case.
Modding is not fine and dandy, the mod culture that popped up because of every Joe Average's favorite DIKU-MUD derivate called WoW is extremely unhealthy, and game companies have done well not to jump on the bandwaggon of silliness. If you think modding improved WoW or other games, no, it caused a bunch of problems including making the games dumber, simpler and semi-automated and players being unable to play and especially raid on patch days because their mods had issues with the latest version. Just wonderful.