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Why can't fleet heads help each other on the forums Cryptic?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Okay, I know that Cryptic has this issue about not saying a specific persons name/handle whatever when saying they go and do something like be a bank ninja.

My question is why can't fleet heads have a post or thread on the forum as a centralized list of bank ninjas. This way, we don't bombard Cryptic with tickets that will only get a boilerplate response about how fleets have to govern themselves.

Well this way we are governing ourselves by helping each other out. I know people going to say that anyone could bad mouth anyone else, but the system would work on how fleets work now; honesty and screen shots for proof. Without that, friendly open fleets can't be had, and won't be had if fleet heads have to lock down banks due to one bad apple that gets recruited.

I know this won't stop bank ninjas completely, there will always be a few, but if a compiled list of them is made public, then fleet heads/recruiters know who not to recruit into the fleet.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    because accusation is not proof of anything regardless of truth. Cryptic won't be responsible for your accusations so they prevent you from making them.
    If the game has anyone playing in 6 months including me, and i can get access to the database I plan an armoury style accessible DB for players to browse and I would add a rogues gallery. But again. not just because you said so. There would have to be logs and proof.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    This isn't allowed because even Fleet heads can lie about bank ninjas. They just might not like someone and so post their handle out of revenge for any number of wrongs which might seem big to the poster but is really quite minor overall. It's not like we don't see people over-react to things around here ever day. Issues such as bank ninjas need to be checked and dealt with by Cryptic. People should not be ostracized based on one person's say-so, IMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    That is why I said SCREEN SHOTS FOR PROOF! Baseless accusations are baseless because they lack the proof. And I admitted it is not a perfect system. It's just an idea.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    That is why I said SCREEN SHOTS FOR PROOF! Baseless accusations are baseless because they lack the proof. And I admitted it is not a perfect system. It's just an idea.

    again. It's not the fact that they did it. It's why. If someone empties your bank and leaves then they had permissions set to do so. That's your fault. If you cry 'thief' and he cries 'sucker' there is little to be done. That's why i want a name and shame list on a website Cryptic can't touch, of people willing to do that kind of thing. Again though, Simple accusation is not enough. I think we all know who the real ninjas are and it's not to difficult to see past a guild fight to an actual thief situation.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I"m suggesting a player generated list. How is Cryptic going to know who is a ninja or not without the input of players? The screen shots of bank logs are going to be proof so its not a "he said, she said" contest. Yes there is still the chance that someone will get ticked off at their fleet and loot the bank in spite. However most bank ninjas join fleets for short amounts of time and smash and grab.

    Now with permissions, yes we have to regulate that. But currently fleets don't have anyway to realy punish people so there is no deterrent to crime. In real life we have laws and cops and jail. Not here.

    Also the argument that giving someone permission makes it the fleets fault is beyond words. The real issue is no actually penalty for stealing in the game. Just because I give you permission to enter my house does not mean you can take everything in it. You could but you'd go to jail or be shot. There would be some kind of penalty.

    I'm sure you are going to say limit the access of the bank to officers. Well then no one uses the bank and the officers just have to hang around the bank waiting on fleeties. So we could make everyone officers, but that defeats the purpose of having officers. Just make them all members.

    Additionally, completely restricting the bank to the upper ranks is counter productive to promoting an open fleet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I"m suggesting a player generated list. How is Cryptic going to know who is a ninja or not without the input of players?
    Cryptic knows by you sending THEM the information. Not by making yourself judge, jury, and executioner on the forum.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    And Cryptic doesn't do anything about it other than say that fleet regulate themselves. I'm trying to suggest a way for something to get done, outside the corporate need to keep as many subcribers on, which is at least part of the reason why they don't do anything about bank ninjas.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    And Cryptic doesn't do anything about it other than say that fleet regulate themselves. I'm trying to suggest a way for something to get done, outside the corporate need to keep as many subcribers on, which is at least part of the reason why they don't do anything about bank ninjas.
    No. You're trying to find a way to shame people because your Fleet did a poor job of regulating itself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Eve has a roundabout solution for this. PEople have a Service record. Have they jumped around Corps alot? If so it's a bit fishy. Why not just add a service record to our characters. It would say when we joined and left a certain fleet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Run a fleet yourself, get robbed and tell me this isn't at least thinking about. There have been multiple "Bank Ninja" threads where fleet heads have bemoaned the fact they can't actually do anything about the regulating the bank, since it is not a perfect system by any means.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Inquizitor, if they did that, it would make my life so much easier.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Inquizitor wrote: »
    Eve has a roundabout solution for this. PEople have a Service record. Have they jumped around Corps alot? If so it's a bit fishy. Why not just add a service record to our characters. It would say when we joined and left a certain fleet.

    you can already do that with the captains database. All you have to do is check the captains log.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    bstiff wrote:
    you can already do that with the captains database. All you have to do is check the captains log.

    Don't tell me Tell the OP. and tell Cryptic that the database needs more search and filter options.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    From my experience as a guild officer in WoW...

    If someone's account had been TRIBBLE -- which is a violation of the game's TOS/EULA -- then you can seek compensation or reimbursement for anything that was stolen by the TRIBBLE account. Compensation might not be guaranteed, but at least you have a case.

    Otherwise, it is your own responsibility for assigning your bank permissions. It's like your house in real life: you can leave the door open to the public if you want, but don't be surprised if you find your belongings missing. Who you let in and out is your choosing, and a matter of trust between you and them.

    EDIT: A MUCH more accurate analogy is below, posted by GlobalTaxi. The Fleet Bank is like a real bank account.

    ===

    WIth that said, the STO forums have rules against naming and shaming -- which is nice, because it means everyone is protected against accusations (whether justified or baseless).

    However, there is nothing stopping you from making your own web site with a list of names you and colleagues don't like. Posting the link here on the STO forums might be against the STO forum rules, but you can always share the link in private among Fleet Leaders who choose to participate.

    ===

    Good luck. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Actually, it's more like adding your friend your bank account. If you tell your friend, "Hey, here's my account number and your name is on the account. Only take out $50!" and the guy takes out $300. The cops are going to say,

    Primary Account Holder:
    "I told him only to take $50 and he took $300"

    Police:
    "His name is on the account, I can't do anything. Take his name off the account and give him the $50 next time. Have a nice day, sir!"

    Having the bank statement to prove he took the money won't do anything in a situation like that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    GlobalTaxi wrote: »
    Actually, it's more like adding your friend your bank account. If you tell your friend, "Hey, here's my account number and your name is on the account. Only take out $50!" and the guy takes out $300. The cops are going to say,

    Primary Account Holder:
    "I told him only to take $50 and he took $300"

    Police:
    "His name is on the account, I can't do anything. Take his name off the account and give him the $50 next time. Have a nice day, sir!"

    Having the bank statement to prove he took the money won't do anything in a situation like that.
    Yes, this is a much better analogy, much more accurate. Thanks for that! :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Run a fleet yourself, get robbed and tell me this isn't at least thinking about. There have been multiple "Bank Ninja" threads where fleet heads have bemoaned the fact they can't actually do anything about the regulating the bank, since it is not a perfect system by any means.
    I do run a Fleet with some 25 members in it. I also have settings on the Fleet so that only leaders have access to Credits - and I don't give out leadership titles willy-nilly. I also tell people not to put anything in the Fleet they don't mind losing as the point of putting something in the Fleet Bank is to share it with others. If someone cleans us out of something I see it as no different then if 10 players each took X number of the items. Since the 12 million credits are safe from this I know there's little that was in the bank that I can't buy back if need be. Every Fleet leader can take the same precautions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    If I'm not mistaken somebody set up a non-Cryptic affiliated forums for STO, where such things could probably be listed, tracked, and maybe prevented. However as many have said, if you have bank settings so that any FNG to the fleet can access anything, and you get ripped off, then you're the fool who deserves it.

    I prefer not to have any kind of bank access permissions, that way if anything does turn up missing, I am automagically eliminated as a suspect.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    For the record, the fleet is 175 strong and ranks aren't handed out "willy nilly."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Funnily enough I have the op on ignore.. must have been spamming fleet recruitment messages (im anally retentive when it comes to that, we have a specific forum for it plus word of mouth - so sue me!)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    That is why I said SCREEN SHOTS FOR PROOF! Baseless accusations are baseless because they lack the proof. And I admitted it is not a perfect system. It's just an idea.

    You think screen shots are proof? LOL.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    There is the option of a 3rd party forum that Cryptic can not moderate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Inquizitor wrote: »
    Eve has a roundabout solution for this. PEople have a Service record. Have they jumped around Corps alot? If so it's a bit fishy. Why not just add a service record to our characters. It would say when we joined and left a certain fleet.

    By Jove, you have something here!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Screen shots are not proof.

    All they say is that items have been removed. What does that tell anyone? Nothing - except their permissions were set up to allow them to take out those items.

    The permissions are not bugged anymore. They haven't been for a good long while.

    I'm in a fleet with over 100 members in it. I am the fleet officer responsible for withdrawing items from the bank periodically and selling them for credits to but new tabs. The items I take out I have to track on a spreadsheet on our website and this is compared to the bank logs in game. The details of my "position" and my fleet bank responsibilities are held on our fleets website and no evidence of it exists in game except that my tab permissions are set higher.

    What would I do if someone suddenly decided to take a screen shot of the bank log and use this as "evidence" that I was a fleet bank ninja? What would I do if, no questions asked, that was used as justification to put me on a ninja-list somewhere? As a certain liberated borg would say; Your logic is flawed.

    Another guy recently told the story of someone in zone chat who started yelling "Thief, thief, XYZ player is a bank thief!!!" This guy sent a tell to the accuser asking what happened - and he simply explained that player XYZ was a bank ninja and had stolen from the fleet bank. So this guy sent a tell to the accused guy asking what his side of the story was. The accused explained that the bank policy was that items and credits could be placed in the bank and would be used/sold for new fleet tabs - except many of the items he'd placed in there along with around 800k ECs had been taken out by the fleet leader and no tabs had been purchased. He asked the Fleet leader why this had happened and the fleet leader would not tell him. So he decided to take out the rest of the items he'd banked and leave the fleet. This guy then contacted the fleet leader to ask if it was true. The fleet leader admitted that it was true he had taken items and credits and would not say what they were used for except that "they were put to good use".

    Can you see how its possible when you only see one side of the story to be very wrong about a situation?

    Now that the bank permissions work - it is the sole responsibilty of the fleet leader/officers to use these tools, along with clear communication and policies about the bank and how it should be used. If you set someones permissions to be able to take items - and they take them - then it is your responsibility to manage that as the person who set those permissions.

    Do I condone theft or griefing? Of course not. But I also don't condone bad fleet management and people taking no personal responsibility when things go wrong that they could easily have avoided themselves.

    I also don't condone naming and shaming based purely on one side of the story. Even fleet leaders lie and grief people. Its not difficult to start a fleet up. And being a fleet leader is not a ticket to being some kind of "elite" citizen automatically ordained with powers to be judge, jury and executioner in these cases.

    Noone said running a fleet was easy - even small fleets take a lot of time to organised and manage properly. Our fleet is pretty small and yet we have clear bank policies. Every normal member can take 3 items a day and each item must be replaced with its value in ECs (so we can buy more tabs). If you want more than 3, you can ask one of the fleet officers to get it for you, and they are always happy to help. The logs are checked daily and if anyone breaches the rule, then they are demoted to the lowest rank which has no bank permissions until they have explained the situation or confirmed they fully understand the bank rules. Even officers are capped at 5 items - and they are subject to demotion for breaching the rules. This has worked well for us and we have never had any issues with ninjas.

    Every member understands the reasons why the rules are in place. Its to protect us all and noone sensible and mature will mind that the banks have the rules around them.

    Too many Fleets recruit unwisely and don't manage their banks correctly.

    As for threads and even umodded threads? - LOL! Seriously? Whats to stop a griefer setting up a fleet and getting acess to this thread themselves.

    Tell you what - I'd like to start a black-list of poorly managed Fleets, including fleets with inept management and corrupt leaders. This list will be based soley on personal opinions, speculation and players versions of events and no fleet leaders are allowed in. It will be unmodded and players can discuss all day long how rubbish certain fleets and their leaders are. Sound good?

    Nope, didn't think so.
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