After maxing out my Tactical BOP I have decided to roll a Fed Science officer cruiser. Currently C6.
First off , the upcoming changes to ability stacking. (Namely RSP)
I am really enjoying being able to actually tank damage. I run 2x RSP 2x ENG team 1x Hazard 1x Science team.
I shield tank with my RSP, hull tank with eng+hazard emitters and de-buff with the science. With the upcoming nerf to stacking , what is proposed to maintain the tank as a viable option in pvp. When my RSP is down , I am dead if I get focused unless my team is 100% dedicated to my support. Now I can understand the need to limit the stacking , 4-5 RSP's are probably not what the devs had in mind. My question is , what do they propose my options will be when this nerf comes in ? 1 rsp that gets instantly stripped by Sub Nuc, and I am almost as squishy as an escort. The only option I see coming to remain viable in pvp is to switch to an all out science ship.(Siphon+TSS+SubNuc+Jam+VM /SIGH) I am very much enjoying pvp tanking and am NOT looking forward to this eventuality. If tanks can now only have 1 RSP per engagement , how can you possibly change Sub Nuc to be able to strip it ?? Im completely dumbfounded how they think anyone in their right mind will continue to play the cruiser. PLEASE enlighten me.
Um ... that's kind of my point. PUGS will choose targets poorly and pay a quick 5-0 penalty for their error in choosing me. Good teams will understand I tank to well to be a viable target , in essence MAKING me viable. The 2-3 tanks force their hand in choosing who WE want them too (mainly our escort) in which we are prepared with extend / teams ect... Maybe we disagree that tanking is not viable NOW, but that doesn't change my statement that they will NOT be viable at ALL in the up coming changes. If I wasn't able to tank at least as well as I do now, why WOULDN'T every team be made up of science + escorts only.
newsflash, you don't tank in pvp. good teams will immediately pull off of you and can the other people.
whoever told you tanking in pvp is viable needs to do their research
This.
First thing we do against an RSP chainer is ignore them, if they're chaining RSP they're not extending and vice versa, cruisers are secondary targets imo anyway unless they're actually healing effectively in which case they Get locked down.
I don't even have 2 RSPs in my build, only one. I only ever pop it if I really need it.
I do not pretend to be the best PvPer in 1vs1. I am build around fighting in a team. My "tanking" skills revolve around making myself a less attractive target than an escorts or science vessels, so that I may focus my attention on healing my teammates.
Right now, Escort burst damage is a little excessive in my opinion. Or at least it feels that way when they pop my shield and hit me for 25k hull in one salvo. That means that a very good escort can probably kill me very quickly.
The problem is not the upcoming RSP changes, its the fact that some escorts can burst damage for 50K+ hull damage plus whatever shields you are using in a few seconds. I'm not QQing about escorts being OP, but it would be nice to see Cruisers get some kind of innate hull resist over other classes. Right now, the extra few thousand hull a cruiser has is a joke compared to the burst DPS output of a good escort player.
But, as a PvPer, and as a cruiser, my job is to survive that alpha strike from the escort and counter it effectively, or help others survive it.
Right now, Escort burst damage is a little excessive in my opinion. Or at least it feels that way when they pop my shield and hit me for 25k hull in one salvo. That means that a very good escort can probably kill me very quickly. .
speaking as an escort pilot I have to agree there.
I've been doing some fairly extensive experimenting lately with weapon builds and the amount of frontal DPS I can kick out atm is a little scary. I'm certainly not the worlds best pvp'er but being able to whack in a 24 second SNB then follow it up with a Rapid fire where I can shred shields and a 27k+ hull in seconds seems a little overboard.
I have to agree with Ipigi, a cruisers best abilities lie in their healing. RSP + hull + decent shields = Not the average 1st target to take down.
However; Ipigi can attest to this as he has faced off against his own fleetmates before in 5v5 premade pvp and been on the recieving end of good pvp, a cruiser that thinks stacking RSP is going to save them is going to wonder why RSP didn't work with no shield power.
Engineering team and haz em are better for tanking then any shield healing skills will ever be. There is no beam target subsystems HULL. The insane amount of hull resist we have gotten before in a game is amazing.
If a cruiser thinks there is such a thing as tanking in PVP they are ill in the head. Normally the cruisers are the last targets we kill.....if we even kill them at all. It is easier to lock them down take out thier engines and weapons and watch them float around then try to kill them.
As for escorts being able to kill players fast.....it is theri role. As is going POP real fast.
I see were you are all going with this. I understand. I use 2x eng teams 1x hazard and 1x science as support most games. You seem to be missing the point that I made. We are able to be healers/support BECAUSE we can tank. We are not targeted BECAUSE we can tank. The point I was trying to make is the new changes will take away that ability. We will now be just as viable targets as escorts. Since we cant tank anymore ... we cant support/heal as well as the science ships ... we cant DPS as well as the Escorts .... there will be zero use for cruisers whatsoever.
EDIT : What I actually get out of the responses so far, is that Cruisers are not viable NOW, so what difference does it make. Now should this be OK ?? We just except the fact ?? why not try to improve there viability instead of take it away even more?
I We are able to be healers/support BECAUSE we can tank. We are not targeted BECAUSE we can tank. The point I was trying to make is the new changes will take away that ability. We will now be just as viable targets as escorts. Since we cant tank anymore ... we cant support/heal as well as the science ships ... we cant DPS as well as the Escorts .... there will be zero use for cruisers whatsoever.
let me clarify
You are able to heal and support because engineer captains are the only ones that can get skills like enginner team 3, not because you can tank. In fact most of the time when you are healing it is not yourself...and if it is then the team you are facing is TRIBBLE.
the reason why you are not targeted first is not becasue you can tank it is because the escorts hurt so much and die so fast and that the science ships when done right are the ugliest thing in the fight since Oprah got a coupon for a free buffet at the Old Country Buffet. Not because you "can tank".
I can tell you from personal experience a science ship CAN NOT heal as good as a cruiser, I have tried and it is not even close in numbers. Science is good at healing shields not hull......the burst healing a cruiser throws out to hull is unmatched.
As far as DPS goes I know that there are times when our cruisers do well over 200-300K DPS in a match.
I suggest you rethink the overall role of a cruiser in PVP bud. You currently are way off base.
The whole point of Arena PvP is to get 15 kills before the other team gets 15 kills. The way to do this is to have your Escorts kill the enemy Escorts while protecting your own Escorts. Why? I'll break it down:
The way to do this is to.... ...have your Escorts... <--- because they kill stuff the fastest ...kill the enemy Escorts... <-- because they die the fastest ...while protecting your own Escorts. <-- which is where Cruisers are king.
Cruisers protect escorts by healing them. So heal them. You don't need to tank, because you won't get shot, because everyone will be shooting the Escorts.
I can tell you from personal experience a science ship CAN NOT heal as good as a cruiser, I have tried and it is not even close in numbers. Science is good at healing shields not hull......the burst healing a cruiser throws out to hull is unmatched.
Fair enough. I agree my experience is limited in Cruiser PVP. 90% of it comes from my BG5 Tac BoP. that being said, my last cruiser PuG match I did 300k+ damage and 200k+ healing. 3x + more then any other person. If you are under the impression that I am wrong , and the new changes to ability stacking and Sub Nuc removing Rsp will have no effect on cruiser viability , that's the argument I am looking to have. In fact if that is the general consensuses that will be GREAT news. I am simply stating that from my limited experience it seems this will not be the case.
The whole point of Arena PvP is to get 15 kills before the other team gets 15 kills. The way to do this is to have your Escorts kill the enemy Escorts while protecting your own Escorts. Why? I'll break it down:
The way to do this is to.... ...have your Escorts... <--- because they kill stuff the fastest ...kill the enemy Escorts... <-- because they die the fastest ...while protecting your own Escorts. <-- which is where Cruisers are king.
Cruisers protect escorts by healing them. So heal them. You don't need to tank, because you won't get shot, because everyone will be shooting the Escorts.
This is all true but remember that science ships mess this up with SNB!
I
Engineering team and haz em are better for tanking then any shield healing skills will ever be. There is no beam target subsystems HULL. The insane amount of hull resist we have gotten before in a game is amazing.
I thought I was the only person that understood this /stands corrected
Lol. I do as well but I'm just the random guy in the back too..
With the added resists being built into shields and shield power coming into play more, it will be interesting to see how things work. It might become a little more viable to try to equalize shield and hull tanking again. I do stress the word might on that.
*edit* I totally forgot about Beam target shields.. so pretty much forget everything I just posted. Sigh. Stupid moment. Sorry.
Fair enough. I agree my experience is limited in Cruiser PVP. 90% of it comes from my BG5 Tac BoP. that being said, my last cruiser PuG match I did 300k+ damage and 200k+ healing. 3x + more then any other person. If you are under the impression that I am wrong , and the new changes to ability stacking and Sub Nuc removing Rsp will have no effect on cruiser viability , that's the argument I am looking to have. In fact if that is the general consensuses that will be GREAT news. I am simply stating that from my limited experience it seems this will not be the case.
Bud if that was your numbers in a 5v5 match then you are doing fine......the rest fo your team......not so much.
I agree the new SNB will be insane. I made a post about it after i played with it for 3 matches and laughed. I thinkt he current version is nothing more than a NUB killer. Those that complain about it being gamebreaking are too ignorant to fully understand the games PVP dynamics yet. I agree that the current version needs ac ounter like Tac team (please dear god cryptic just make it a counter and not make it the INSANELY powerfull version u have on tribble right now).
Cruisers will still not be useless though in fact I see them being even more needed with the ability to remove RSP from escorts and science vessels. Their healing will be the difference.
The way burst damage is right now they should just let engineering resists consoles stack because after the RSP I do not think cruiser's will stand a chance at all. And that sems like the only logical way to counter escourt/bop damage is to make resists stack properly that way you wont have to nerf damage from those ships setups/ cannon setups. Because if people complain enough like they are now It will get changed and, I rather they buff the resist consoles to stack properly then nerf stuff.
If I see a Cruiser that is RSP Chaining and/or healing while there are more dangerous ships out there (Escorts, Scis), I hit them with EPtAux boosted SNB to take them out for a bit while the others go down.
If I see a Cruiser that is RSP Chaining and/or healing while there are more dangerous ships out there (Escorts, Scis), I hit them with EPtAux boosted SNB to take them out for a bit while the others go down.
protip: easiest way to force the opposing team to wipe is to disable the healers, kill the escorts, and then finish off the healers while their still disabled.
I have to partially agree with the OP on this one. For different reasons though.
I think cruisers as life savers in group pvp will still be fine with the new changes coming. I only have one RSP in group pvp, and usually it's the last skill I use.
I think the real problem will be in places like Kerrat, where 1v1 is fairly common. Cruisers will become the "easy" target. Simply because our DPS is nowhere near any klingon ship (except maybe carrier?), and now add in our solo survivability will be severely nerfed. Once the first RSP drops, we'll die, unless you're an engineer with RSF.
I have to agree with the other guy that posted here. Un-nerf resistance consoles. I suppose this could be abused, but DPS is already abused.
I have it on good authority that such a comment is as redundant as this(I understand your frustration with the way many people make statements that were written with the correct thought but inaccurate description or language, but the likelihood of radiumz0rs not being aware of that, is infinitesimal ).
As for the topic itself, I do indeed find that most groups that have a vague resemblance of knowledge of what they are supposed to be doing, either target me sporadically or not at all, and therefore I have forgone personal survivability for more group support abilities and if, by chance, I get suddenly lit up like an american christmas tree, then I will speak of such deeds over TeamSpeak and the problem is rectified in a few seconds most of the time.
I do enjoy flying my support cruiser. There is something exhilarating in restoring a nearly dead friendly escort to almost full health and buffed up with EPS transfer, or patching people up as if on an assembly line.
It always amuses me when I stumble upon the occasional person flying an assault cruiser, with questionable bridge officer and equipment choices, in the unorthodox belief that they could even hope to reach the damage of an escort, and then they are promptly killed anyway, lacking in firepower to kill either me or the escorts I am repairing, much to their great dismay and disapproval.
People with Reverse Shield Polarity 3 are also very, very amusing. It's like filling 6 tactical slots in an escort with various versions of High Yield. Completely pointless.
Oh, and I have little to no idea what exactly this thread is all about. It seems as if it has been derailed at some point. Something to think about, and ponder. Please do have a nice day.
I am going to eat mint-chocolate ice cream, and sleep.
I have to agree with the other guy that posted here. Un-nerf resistance consoles. I suppose this could be abused, but DPS is already abused.[/QUOTE]
It cant really be abused seeing as you can pop someone in all of 5 seconds, So instead of nerfing cannon damage output which will most likely happen do to people complaingin why not just make resist consoes stackt his way you dont have to nerf anything and it balances out on its own. Heck even put a hard cap on resists so you cant go past 60% to 70% resists or something if people are going to complain that people will abuse it.
the reason why you are not targeted first is not becasue you can tank it is because the escorts hurt so much and die so fast and that the science ships when done right are the ugliest thing in the fight since Oprah got a coupon for a free buffet at the Old Country Buffet. Not because you "can tank".
You realize your basically implying that the reason cruisers are attacked last is because they are the least dangerous ship in the game.
That in itself basically solidifies the argument the OP is making. Well... not really, but its indicative of a problem w/ cruisers themselves.
Ideally I would think Cruisers would be the primary target, do to their ability to extend the life of their ally ships, in which case they would need to excel at tanking.
You realize your basically implying that the reason cruisers are attacked last is because they are the least dangerous ship in the game.
That in itself basically solidifies the argument the OP is making. Well... not really, but its indicative of a problem w/ cruisers themselves.
Ideally I would think Cruisers would be the primary target, do to their ability to extend the life of their ally ships, in which case they would need to excel at tanking.
IMO, it's not that Cruisers are the 'least dangerous', they just prove the longest to take down... in which time, an Escort can eat a few people, and Scis can debuff people to hell.
Comments
whoever told you tanking in pvp is viable needs to do their research
This.
First thing we do against an RSP chainer is ignore them, if they're chaining RSP they're not extending and vice versa, cruisers are secondary targets imo anyway unless they're actually healing effectively in which case they Get locked down.
I resemble that remark!
I do not pretend to be the best PvPer in 1vs1. I am build around fighting in a team. My "tanking" skills revolve around making myself a less attractive target than an escorts or science vessels, so that I may focus my attention on healing my teammates.
Right now, Escort burst damage is a little excessive in my opinion. Or at least it feels that way when they pop my shield and hit me for 25k hull in one salvo. That means that a very good escort can probably kill me very quickly.
The problem is not the upcoming RSP changes, its the fact that some escorts can burst damage for 50K+ hull damage plus whatever shields you are using in a few seconds. I'm not QQing about escorts being OP, but it would be nice to see Cruisers get some kind of innate hull resist over other classes. Right now, the extra few thousand hull a cruiser has is a joke compared to the burst DPS output of a good escort player.
But, as a PvPer, and as a cruiser, my job is to survive that alpha strike from the escort and counter it effectively, or help others survive it.
THAT WOULD BE SWEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
(/sarcasm off)
speaking as an escort pilot I have to agree there.
I've been doing some fairly extensive experimenting lately with weapon builds and the amount of frontal DPS I can kick out atm is a little scary. I'm certainly not the worlds best pvp'er but being able to whack in a 24 second SNB then follow it up with a Rapid fire where I can shred shields and a 27k+ hull in seconds seems a little overboard.
However; Ipigi can attest to this as he has faced off against his own fleetmates before in 5v5 premade pvp and been on the recieving end of good pvp, a cruiser that thinks stacking RSP is going to save them is going to wonder why RSP didn't work with no shield power.
Engineering team and haz em are better for tanking then any shield healing skills will ever be. There is no beam target subsystems HULL. The insane amount of hull resist we have gotten before in a game is amazing.
If a cruiser thinks there is such a thing as tanking in PVP they are ill in the head. Normally the cruisers are the last targets we kill.....if we even kill them at all. It is easier to lock them down take out thier engines and weapons and watch them float around then try to kill them.
As for escorts being able to kill players fast.....it is theri role. As is going POP real fast.
EDIT : What I actually get out of the responses so far, is that Cruisers are not viable NOW, so what difference does it make. Now should this be OK ?? We just except the fact ?? why not try to improve there viability instead of take it away even more?
let me clarify
You are able to heal and support because engineer captains are the only ones that can get skills like enginner team 3, not because you can tank. In fact most of the time when you are healing it is not yourself...and if it is then the team you are facing is TRIBBLE.
the reason why you are not targeted first is not becasue you can tank it is because the escorts hurt so much and die so fast and that the science ships when done right are the ugliest thing in the fight since Oprah got a coupon for a free buffet at the Old Country Buffet. Not because you "can tank".
I can tell you from personal experience a science ship CAN NOT heal as good as a cruiser, I have tried and it is not even close in numbers. Science is good at healing shields not hull......the burst healing a cruiser throws out to hull is unmatched.
As far as DPS goes I know that there are times when our cruisers do well over 200-300K DPS in a match.
I suggest you rethink the overall role of a cruiser in PVP bud. You currently are way off base.
The way to do this is to....
...have your Escorts... <--- because they kill stuff the fastest
...kill the enemy Escorts... <-- because they die the fastest
...while protecting your own Escorts. <-- which is where Cruisers are king.
Cruisers protect escorts by healing them. So heal them. You don't need to tank, because you won't get shot, because everyone will be shooting the Escorts.
Fair enough. I agree my experience is limited in Cruiser PVP. 90% of it comes from my BG5 Tac BoP. that being said, my last cruiser PuG match I did 300k+ damage and 200k+ healing. 3x + more then any other person. If you are under the impression that I am wrong , and the new changes to ability stacking and Sub Nuc removing Rsp will have no effect on cruiser viability , that's the argument I am looking to have. In fact if that is the general consensuses that will be GREAT news. I am simply stating that from my limited experience it seems this will not be the case.
This is all true but remember that science ships mess this up with SNB!
I thought I was the only person that understood this /stands corrected
Dude, the entire D.O.B. Fleet understands that :P
Lol. I do as well but I'm just the random guy in the back too..
With the added resists being built into shields and shield power coming into play more, it will be interesting to see how things work. It might become a little more viable to try to equalize shield and hull tanking again. I do stress the word might on that.
*edit* I totally forgot about Beam target shields.. so pretty much forget everything I just posted. Sigh. Stupid moment. Sorry.
Bud if that was your numbers in a 5v5 match then you are doing fine......the rest fo your team......not so much.
I agree the new SNB will be insane. I made a post about it after i played with it for 3 matches and laughed. I thinkt he current version is nothing more than a NUB killer. Those that complain about it being gamebreaking are too ignorant to fully understand the games PVP dynamics yet. I agree that the current version needs ac ounter like Tac team (please dear god cryptic just make it a counter and not make it the INSANELY powerfull version u have on tribble right now).
Cruisers will still not be useless though in fact I see them being even more needed with the ability to remove RSP from escorts and science vessels. Their healing will be the difference.
pfft i dont even have an engi but i get this, why i have hazards adn engi even on my bop tac, every little helps
protip: easiest way to force the opposing team to wipe is to disable the healers, kill the escorts, and then finish off the healers while their still disabled.
I think cruisers as life savers in group pvp will still be fine with the new changes coming. I only have one RSP in group pvp, and usually it's the last skill I use.
I think the real problem will be in places like Kerrat, where 1v1 is fairly common. Cruisers will become the "easy" target. Simply because our DPS is nowhere near any klingon ship (except maybe carrier?), and now add in our solo survivability will be severely nerfed. Once the first RSP drops, we'll die, unless you're an engineer with RSF.
I have to agree with the other guy that posted here. Un-nerf resistance consoles. I suppose this could be abused, but DPS is already abused.
Science captains get SNB, not science ships.
I have it on good authority that such a comment is as redundant as this(I understand your frustration with the way many people make statements that were written with the correct thought but inaccurate description or language, but the likelihood of radiumz0rs not being aware of that, is infinitesimal
As for the topic itself, I do indeed find that most groups that have a vague resemblance of knowledge of what they are supposed to be doing, either target me sporadically or not at all, and therefore I have forgone personal survivability for more group support abilities and if, by chance, I get suddenly lit up like an american christmas tree, then I will speak of such deeds over TeamSpeak and the problem is rectified in a few seconds most of the time.
I do enjoy flying my support cruiser. There is something exhilarating in restoring a nearly dead friendly escort to almost full health and buffed up with EPS transfer, or patching people up as if on an assembly line.
It always amuses me when I stumble upon the occasional person flying an assault cruiser, with questionable bridge officer and equipment choices, in the unorthodox belief that they could even hope to reach the damage of an escort, and then they are promptly killed anyway, lacking in firepower to kill either me or the escorts I am repairing, much to their great dismay and disapproval.
People with Reverse Shield Polarity 3 are also very, very amusing. It's like filling 6 tactical slots in an escort with various versions of High Yield. Completely pointless.
Oh, and I have little to no idea what exactly this thread is all about. It seems as if it has been derailed at some point. Something to think about, and ponder. Please do have a nice day.
I am going to eat mint-chocolate ice cream, and sleep.
After that, I will probably return.
It cant really be abused seeing as you can pop someone in all of 5 seconds, So instead of nerfing cannon damage output which will most likely happen do to people complaingin why not just make resist consoes stackt his way you dont have to nerf anything and it balances out on its own. Heck even put a hard cap on resists so you cant go past 60% to 70% resists or something if people are going to complain that people will abuse it.
You realize your basically implying that the reason cruisers are attacked last is because they are the least dangerous ship in the game.
That in itself basically solidifies the argument the OP is making. Well... not really, but its indicative of a problem w/ cruisers themselves.
Ideally I would think Cruisers would be the primary target, do to their ability to extend the life of their ally ships, in which case they would need to excel at tanking.
He intended to turn and get on the road but he understeered
IMO, it's not that Cruisers are the 'least dangerous', they just prove the longest to take down... in which time, an Escort can eat a few people, and Scis can debuff people to hell.