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Escort damage...wtf

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I've been pvp'ing today after a 2.5 week break, what has happened? All of a sudden my sturdy cruiser, capable of tanking an entire team of Federation players a few weeks ago with a good skill rotation and some fly skills, melts in seconds when facing a few escorts.
A single escort can take me down from 100% shields - 100% hull to 0% shields - 5-10% hull in a single strafing run that lasts just a few seconds. And that is with +28% passive damage resistance. I even had a few incidents where I was broadsiding another ship and at roughly 80% hull, and I basically just instantly blew up as some escort apparently had targetted me. This game is more and more turning into some sort of X-wing vs Tie-fighter game with how fast ships pop.:(
I guess for those that have continued playing the past weeks it may not be so obvious as they slowly get accustomed to the balance of power, but for me with a 2.5 week gap its just astounding. Good escorts already could do much damage, but now it seems like every escort player in the game suddenly has gone pro.:eek:
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    They're making shield power better to compensate for it. Shields will give damage resistance instead of just regeneration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LordTareq wrote: »
    I've been pvp'ing today after a 2.5 week break, what has happened? All of a sudden my sturdy cruiser, capable of tanking an entire team of Federation players a few weeks ago with a good skill rotation and some fly skills, melts in seconds when facing a few escorts.
    A single escort can take me down from 100% shields - 100% hull to 0% shields - 5-10% hull in a single strafing run that lasts just a few seconds. And that is with +28% passive damage resistance. I even had a few incidents where I was broadsiding another ship and at roughly 80% hull, and I basically just instantly blew up as some escort apparently had targetted me. This game is more and more turning into some sort of X-wing vs Tie-fighter game with how fast ships pop.:(
    I guess for those that have continued playing the past weeks it may not be so obvious as they slowly get accustomed to the balance of power, but for me with a 2.5 week gap its just astounding. Good escorts already could do much damage, but now it seems like every escort player in the game suddenly has gone pro.:eek:

    Basically they took cruisers, and took a hot steamy dump on them. So now you are stuck between a wonderful decision to fight an escort that can kill you before you can click a key and a science ship that can VM, SNB, FBP you as you sit there helpless.

    The "Fix" for shield resists has already been reported as barely noticeable. So they stuck a band aid on a busted artery.

    Basically you should come back for season 2, when they just remove your ship from the game completely and replace it with a bicycle. Don't worry, they will balance THAT out by then reducing your bicycle's turning rate to 1 or 2, to keep it balanced.

    They pretty much broke the cruisers in season 1, and many players who fly other classes (X-Wings and Star Destroyers) can't or won't acknowledge it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I hardly play my tactical other than to do dailies because of this. It feels like EZ mode, boring, and unchallenging.

    On the otherhand, there are ways to prepare yourself and cruiser so that this does not happen ahead of time. I actually find myself enjoying my engineer/cruiser set up as I can easily take out an escort 1 on 1 and even 2 on 1 if I was prepared ahead of time with my buffs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    You think it's bad now, wait till they double nerf RSP. Longer cooldown timer and Subnuc gets rid of it. I admit, RSP is overpowered, but it's the only thing that makes a cruiser stay alive right now. I can only hope the new shield buff works.

    Honestly though, we give up a lot of DPS and mobility for what is supposed to be combat endurance, but I don't see that happening if they implement their tribble ideas.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Cruisers are getting a buff with the next patch, science ships are getting nerfed, escorts are staying about the same...

    It's just Cryptics way of reminding you that they are far from competent when it comes to basic game balance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Rothnang wrote:
    Cruisers are getting a buff with the next patch, science ships are getting nerfed, escorts are staying about the same...

    It's just Cryptics way of reminding you that they are far from competent when it comes to basic game balance.

    What buff are cruisers getting?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Izzx wrote:
    What buff are cruisers getting?

    Tinted windows and fuzzy dice.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I hear you my friend ! It is stupid how much damage they do . On more then one battle , I have had an escort cut thru 10000 shields and almost 50000 hull in my carrier in under 2 sec . I mean it was so fast I could not even hit any skills . Don't say it was a tricobalt or torpedos because I checked combat log and it was 4 dual heavys and turrets . There is nothing balanced about that .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yeah, I always fly cruisers on my Fed engineering char, but now that I'm Captain 2 I decided to go for a Defiant last night.

    I used it tonight in PvP for the first time, and I was surprised at the damage. Granted I'm maximizing with 2xCRF, Attack Pattern Beta, 2x HYT, etc but I was surprised by how effective it can be.

    I found myself doing the "fast strafe" though tonight you describe: at 10k hit HYT and fire a torp, as you get within 5k hit ATB and CRF, then drop to half speed and just keep unloading the cannons and torpedoes on the target by turning with them. It would do some serious damage unless the opponent popped RSP or cut across me so I couldn't get my cannons on target. And Sulu forbid multiple escorts are on the same target doing strafing runs, then it's just silly at that point.

    My only counter observation would be that about half the time there were 1 or 2 BoPs on the Klingon side with close damage stats as my escort, so would think that a BoP would be able to do the same damage as an escort with the same BOs/weapons. Granted Klingons don't get the Efficient engines (*grumble*), so they lose that advantage.

    I haven't faced escorts at T4 or T5 on Klingon side so I don't have much experience on that. But as a Fed cruiser captain facing some nasty BoPs sometimes, the only things I can think of would be to immediately hit RSP, then Rotate Shield Frequency and EPtS to survive the alpha, and then have ET or HazEmit on standy while you try to unload on the escort with beam broadsides. And then try to cut inside their turn ratio so they can't get all their cannons on you. Sometimes I'll actually just hit reverse if a BoP is on my tail, so they fly in front of me (and then sometimes ram them immediately, but that's another story).

    As for the buff, the cruiser buffs are more indirect from what I saw. FBP now works on cannons, so BoPs and escorts will get their cannons reflected back at them. And shield power now grants a resist, so you can switch your shields higher to try and get 20% resist max at 100 power.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LordTareq wrote: »
    I've been pvp'ing today after a 2.5 week break, what has happened?:

    1- They added all the new tactical skills to the skill tree. Everyone respecced into them, because they are a serious buff to spaceship DPS.

    2- They removed the global cooldown on DHCs making them pump out more damage.

    3- They fixed criticals, making high tier weapons even more effective.

    They're making shield power better to compensate for it. Shields will give damage resistance instead of just regeneration.

    Currently on Tribble you get 20% resistance buff at 100 shield power. With diminished returns. It's ... not very effective.

    However, that may change.

    And ... this post keeps getting overlooked. But SNIX is aware of the problem ...

    Devs Know About DPS issue

    And just to keep highlighting this post because it is important, but hard to find due to the thread's title not really letting anyone know the discussion is about DPS ...
    We are looking into how to reduce the excessive damage that you are currently experiencing. Some of the elements already mentioned in this thread and others are being examined, such as:

    - Energy damage buff console values and that most players stack as many as they can equip
    - The amount of the narrow arc damage multiplier that gets applied to cannons
    - Stacking of attack patterns and their buff, debuff, crit chance, and crit severity
    - Appropriate weapon power drain when firing multiple energy weapons


    We're getting closer to having more specific details and getting something up on to Tribble. This is a priority.

    Thanks for your patience,
    -snix

    So there you go. Straight from the devs themselves. They are looking into how to reduce the excessive damage that we are currently experiencing. Gets right to the heart of the OP's question. And some specific details on what they're looking at.

    So give it some time, I hope? Maybe?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I totally forgot about the new skills and the DHC change; that probably explains why my escort seems to be outdamaging what my BoP was before. I last played my BoP before Update 1, and made my escort after putting points into those skills with a respec for my cruiser. So those 2 changes alone would explain why a build similar to my BoP just seems more powerful, and would explain why the OP would suddenly see a spike; it's pre and post Update 1.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    We are looking into how to reduce the excessive damage that you are currently experiencing. Some of the elements already mentioned in this thread and others are being examined, such as:

    - Energy damage buff console values and that most players stack as many as they can equip
    - The amount of the narrow arc damage multiplier that gets applied to cannons
    - Stacking of attack patterns and their buff, debuff, crit chance, and crit severity
    - Appropriate weapon power drain when firing multiple energy weapons


    We're getting closer to having more specific details and getting something up on to Tribble. This is a priority.

    Thanks for your patience,
    -snix

    Having hopped into an escort for the fun of pew pew, I can safely say that an escort running 1xDual Beam, 2x Heavy cannon and 2x turrets in back has less of an energy drain than a cruiser broadsiding 4 beams, even when the escort is applying cannon rapid fire.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Ipigi wrote:
    Having hopped into an escort for the fun of pew pew, I can safely say that an escort running 1xDual Beam, 2x Heavy cannon and 2x turrets in back has less of an energy drain than a cruiser broadsiding 4 beams, even when the escort is applying cannon rapid fire.

    cannons are designed to be energy conservative. so logicaly they would pose less of a drain on power than beams.

    escort damage is way of the charts. but keep in mind that it only goes of the chart with multiple buffs. i use them to. and its true when multiple buffs are activated i can nuke prety much everything. the op was prety lucky he survived that strafing run. good escorts would have finished him of with ramming speed. (at least i would have). BUT, when all of them are popped you wont have much left for the comming fights. so yeah you just destroyed a ship, very fast i might add, you have just nerfed your damage for at least another 20sec.
    that said i can tell u the opposite story, ive met cruiser i could barely put the hurt on. even with my buffs. so if u are attacking one of those and not killing him u just wasted all ur skills and left yourself very vulnerable to any form of attack.
    the opposite team has escorts to, they can nuke you to.

    in all respect, the damage is very high, maybe even to high but when on your toes there are ways to defend against it. i know of combos that will kill you without you being able to do anything about that (snb+vm anyone?)

    last point, im not sure about this one, but im thinking that the true killers are the tacs in escorts. the rest is doing less damage and are probably on the pinnacle of balance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Currently on Tribble you get 20% resistance buff at 100 shield power. With diminished returns. It's ... not very effective.

    Shield damage reduction does not have DR. It is multiplicative. So at 100 shield power, your shield should take 20% less than it did before. But since shields scale so poorly compared to weapons, well, it won't fix the issues with the rampant offense in T5 PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    In my opinion, battles between two different ships, between equally skilled opponents, should be close.

    As it stands though, as long as a cruiser has RSP, he should win versus an escort. If he doesn't have RSP, he will lose. Now they're nerfing RSP (which is needed), without scaling back DPS or buffing resistance (which is needed). Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that hull strength doesn't count right now. They shouldn't have diminishing returns on resist consoles, this would go a long ways in restoring some sanity. Currently, I feel like I'm signing my own death wish when I use extend shields on an ally.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Only way an escort is taking me out on my Cruiser is if he has help. I have yet to lose to a escort one on one. Even with the changes. Little tip if you guy didn't think of it. Let the little punk blow his wad and during that hit jam sensors and go to town. Worst thing is you are slow and he jams you.

    My issue at moment is the target sub systems especially target shields. I had it used on me 3 times in a row and all three times my shields went down. This was only a rank 1. I run like 50 shields and Epts2. They just never came back.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Only way an escort is taking me out on my Cruiser is if he has help.

    One vs one duelling isn't what a game should be balanced around. Its how classes and ships perform in group situations that is most important. And I've seen some well played escorts destroy equally well played cruisers in duels
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    If neither the escort or its target (specifically cruisers) does not pop cooldowns then the supposedly overpowered cannons don't even *dent* their shields.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Tricobalts at close Range do insane Damage. Also they dont show up in Combat log very often. Some days ago i got hit by one with 100% Shields + RSP ,100% Hull + HE (making up for around 45% Hull resist) and got onehitted by this Torp. Damage didnt show up on Combat log or above my ship. (Talked with him after the game and he told me those tricobalts can crit for ~130k damage at exposed hull ,thats even enough to take out shields + hull on most ships even with resists)

    Although i must say Resists dont count much in this game. You hardly get them and a single Debuff (sensor scan ,Fire on my mark) can reduce them to 0,0%. Its like saying anyone ,get your resists ,but actually knowing it doesnt matter.

    The damageoutput is really over the top currently and i dont think they will make it any better with the upcomming changes. Shieldresists for high Shield power setting anyone? Ask Escortpilots what they use and you will get about 90% the answer Target Subsystem Shields. -98 Shield power anyone at MK 3 of that skill ...well how high will your shieldresists be by then? Anyone up for Fire on my mark? No need for BTSS ,your shieldresists are gone already ...oh and since pvp is a teamgame dont forget the Science Guys using sensor scan ...any left over resists anyone i got some debuff free?!

    With all the stacking up of Skills Tactical Characters in Escorts can get the hell of a beating out of their Guns ...sure you will do this only for err ..20-30sec and then have to wait for another ~20 sec to do this again? Oh well ,poor little escort pilots.

    ->Got some games today (must admit i got several new people on klingon side that seem to not know anything or at least not much about pvp - the usual fed of last few weeks before Season 1 i guess) where feds actually played as teams ...2 Science ships spitting out SNB and VM as if theres no CD on them ,2 Escorts with a bufflist i dream of (7-9 Buffs +2-3 Debuffs) and a Cruiser. Was pretty hard to take out those 2 Escorts took us long enough for them to use their damagestacking 2 times. Yeah ,pretty hard time you escort guys have when beeing in a good team. (not only feds i mean both side escort pilots)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Easy fix: do not allow Attack Patterns to stack. It doesn't even make sense that you can use more than one, given what an 'attack pattern' is intended to simulate.

    AP:Beta and AP:Alpha together contribute most of the ludicrous damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Axterix wrote:
    Shield damage reduction does not have DR. It is multiplicative. So at 100 shield power, your shield should take 20% less than it did before. But since shields scale so poorly compared to weapons, well, it won't fix the issues with the rampant offense in T5 PvP.

    All Resistance has Diminished Returns. So if you're equipping armor already ... that shield bonus is ... less than impressive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Arizhel wrote:
    Tricobalts at close Range do insane Damage. Also they dont show up in Combat log very often. Some days ago i got hit by one with 100% Shields + RSP ,100% Hull + HE (making up for around 45% Hull resist) and got onehitted by this Torp. Damage didnt show up on Combat log or above my ship. (Talked with him after the game and he told me those tricobalts can crit for ~130k damage at exposed hull ,thats even enough to take out shields + hull on most ships even with resists)

    RSP does not affect projectiles in any way. The damage a projectile would do to your shields will be the exact same with or without RSP. Just wanted to point that out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    So here we have the basic double sided problem:

    Attack Bonuses: No diminishing returns

    Defense Bonuses: Massive diminishing returns.

    So, let's give damage diminishing returns....and then we can work on balance.

    Until then you are fighting an uphill battle.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Diminishing returns doesn't make as much sense when applied to offensive buffs. A simpler and more elegant fix is to restrict stacking of certain abilities completely (which I suppose you could call 100% diminishing returns if you really wanted to). Attack patterns are the worst offender and the most obvious example of a group of skills in which at most one power should be active at any given time.

    Nerfing the stacking of AP:Alpha, Beta, Omega will probably defang the worst of the Escort damage problems all by itself. They shouldn't stack. They should never have stacked. It doesn't make sense from a 'lore' perspective that they stack, and it's clearly broken from a balance perspective.

    Obvious problem, simple solution.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    RSP does not affect projectiles in any way. The damage a projectile would do to your shields will be the exact same with or without RSP. Just wanted to point that out.

    I know ,i just wanted to point out with that ,that my shields where at 100% at this time because nothing else could have done damage to them except for that Torp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Easy fix: do not allow Attack Patterns to stack. It doesn't even make sense that you can use more than one, given what an 'attack pattern' is intended to simulate.

    AP:Beta and AP:Alpha together contribute most of the ludicrous damage.

    Yes tactical should be punished for using their career skill along with a BO skill. Let the other careers stack their skills to make up for Tac being all-powerful and maybe people will stop complaining? Ohhh wait people never stop complaining. My mistake.
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