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Feedback Response to "Ask Cryptic: PvP"

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Q: Trible_Hunter - Will we see rewards for people that have healing roles. I notice that in the borg PVE people will heal and assist other players. But in the PVP its every man/woman for themself... A reward for these type of toons would foster a better playing experience for all.
A: We currently track hull healing stats in PvP, and we are currently working on including shield healing to that. Buffing will be harder to track. Once we nail this down we can look into rewards for best supporting players.

In response to the above answer from the Devs, why go through the tough task of tracking, quantifying and weighing the value of a Healer/Buffer/Debuffer role vs the DPS roles? There are easier methods that are fair, and allow you to focus on other pressing issues with the current system.

First and foremost, before you even touch this topic, there are much deeper problems with the current PvP system to deal with. And I don't mean balance issues. Auto-group teams for queue'd pvp fights, stop starting the instance with 2 on 5. With the forced auto-group, allow the group to kick members who are afk or a detriment to the team, either via an initiated vote or just give the ability to the group leader. These are basics to any que'd instance, whether PvE or PvP. The fact that basic functionality of a que or auto-group instance system wasn't in place at launch time doesn't scream GAME BREAKER to the devs and QA at Cryptic? Really?

It's easy to apply a value to each role individually. DPS roles are quantified based off Damage Done Overall, DPS, or Kill Shot/Death Ratio, or a combo of some or all of those items. You then compare those numbers vs the numbers of the other DPS and ta da, you can pinpoint an MVP, but that only works when comparing Apples to Apples, (DPS Role vs DPS Role).

As soon as you try to compare the DPS numbers to those of say, a pure Healer, what do you compare? Obviously you can't compare Damage to Damage, the DPS wins everytime. (Equally geared and skilled players). It's now Apples to Oranges.

So based off the above answer, you want to track healing and support stats and somehow take those numbers and compare them to the damage numbers to find the MVP? Seems futile. What if I do 500,000 dmg, heal 50,000, and kill 10 guys. And someone else does 500,000 healing, 50,000 dmg, and kills 10 guys?
Apples to Oranges.

Who wins? It doesn't matter who wins. Because the one who doesn't win, will cry foul. No matter how much thought and effort you put in to make it fair, it won't help. As well, how can you even begin to quantify the value of 1 point of dmg (apple) vs 1 point of healing (orange)?

What if that one point of dmg was the final desperate shot from an Escort who's team is all dead who is facing a 3 on 1 and pops an enemy cruiser just before he dies to win the match, vs 1 point of healing that came from a Cruiser who accidentally popped Eng Team when at 99.99999999% hull with no enemies in sight?

It's a rhetorical question because you can't quantify 1 point of dmg vs 1 point of healer (or "1 point" worth of CC) for value and call them equal at face value. Nor can you compare total DPS over a full fight vs total HPS over a full fight. They are not the same thing, the comparison is logically flawed. There are too many variables and the numbers represent two VERY different functions.

To make it work, you would need to assign weights to the numbers. An arbitrary system that defines a unit of value, and then judge your target statistics to weigh out how many units of value each stat is worth. Can you say, "Balancing Act?" Can you say "Forum QQ?" Eventually someone's gonna find out that stat X is worth 1 unit of value per 10 points of X, and stat Y is worth 1.5 units of value per 10 points of Y and the forum QQ and cries of foul play ensue. Even if your evaluation is DEAD on correct because you devoted countless hours to analysis, there will always be debate and unsatisfied customers.

But, W vs L. Which team won? Easy to evaluate. Little to no room for arguing. Give each team member who got the W a flat percentage bonus to the Skill Points, Credits and whatever other base rewards are given for that particular PvP event, and then do a random roll 1-100 for the winning team members and give the top random roll a green item or something. All are acknowledged for the win, all are given a bonus for the win, and all are given an even chance regardless of role at a "prize".

Most common arguments "But I had to carry that team! I should get the prize!" or "But that dude just afk'd in the corner and we had to 4v5 it for the win, why does he get a reward and a random roll."

A)"But I had to carry that team!" - So, carry the team. You got the win and get a shot at the prize. Someone REALLY bad in your group? Kick em. No one good in your group? Leave and find a better one. This is the point of MMO's. Teammates, other people, interaction, co-operation. Keep getting bad PuGs you hafta carry? Teach them, or leave the group and find a better. Or, don't PuG. IMHO no mmo should have auto filled PuG's of any form for any reason. It only rewards laziness and leads to a lower overall "skill" level within your player base to the detriment of the community. (See WoW for a reference point) But that's another topic for another thread.

B)"But that dude just afk'd in the corner and we had to 4v5 it for the win, why does he get a reward and a random roll." - If Cryptic would implement my suggestion this is not a problem. Because the pre-cursor is that teams are auto-grouped upon entry if not already in a group together. So, you kick slacker from the group, now they're not in the instance, next player in the queue enters, is auto grouped, and we carry on.

Cryptic, I'm losing faith here. Many of the recent proposals offered from your dev team regarding balance and feature tweaking has been VERY poorly thought out. I mean, I know employees turn over, and you probable have a few designers and coders who are new to the genre, but you can't ALL be clueless when it comes to questions like this one... can you? It's not like this is uncharted territory in the genre, there's a host of examples of tried practices, and it's pretty obvious what's worked across the genre and what hasn't worked.

Your above quote is a shining example of what doesn't work. There's too many ways to job the system, do little to help the team, but pump your personal score to scoop loot. The proposed system DOES NOT give us BETTER PvP, it makes PvP WORSE, and rewards the exact opposite behavior to what should be encouraged.

I have been as optimistic as I can with this game for a month now. I am not knocking the level of effort put forth. And I definitely see good things from the staff. But the good is centered around communication, transparency, really taking the time to listen to your customer. You guys seem to respond when the forums are up in flames on a problem. But the solutions proposed... I am beginning to have serious doubts about the level of ability to actually fix anything competently.

I really get this sense of being inept due to lack of experience and not taking the time to really think things through to the end. Just spewing out whatever was the first idea that popped in your collective heads and running with it without truly looking at the problem as a whole, and the ramifications your changes will have within the affected system. You just... you look like amateurs right now, srsly.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    ... this guy makes sense and the Dev team needs to take notes!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I wonder - why not have different rewards for different things?

    - Most kills gets a reward.
    - Most damage gets a reward
    - Most hull heals gets a reward
    - most shield heals get a reward.

    People could give only one reward, so if you already have most kills, you don't get a reward for damage, or hull or shields, even if you rock there, too. Counting other buff types would be harder, I suppose, though if you for example track something like "resistances granted" or "damage buff granted" as a number, you at least don't have to try to compare them with kills or damage.

    The type of reward might be linked to the area where you "won". Maybe in a way to "balance" things, e.g. if you are good at dealing damage, you don't necessarily get a damage-affecting item, but instead something that boosts defense or speed so you get a little more versatile. On the other hand, "farming" for stuff you want/need should still be an option, I suppose. Hmm.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I wonder - why not have different rewards for different things?

    - Most kills gets a reward.
    - Most damage gets a reward
    - Most hull heals gets a reward
    - most shield heals get a reward.

    People could give only one reward, so if you already have most kills, you don't get a reward for damage, or hull or shields, even if you rock there, too. Counting other buff types would be harder, I suppose, though if you for example track something like "resistances granted" or "damage buff granted" as a number, you at least don't have to try to compare them with kills or damage.

    The type of reward might be linked to the area where you "won". Maybe in a way to "balance" things, e.g. if you are good at dealing damage, you don't necessarily get a damage-affecting item, but instead something that boosts defense or speed so you get a little more versatile. On the other hand, "farming" for stuff you want/need should still be an option, I suppose. Hmm.

    Creates a scenario where a reward pool is perceived as better than another. IE, the shield healers might feel that the over damage loot is the best loot but they can never get it cuz they are focused on healing.

    It also leaves CC spec'd sci captains out to dry. Team based, pre-set, instanced based PvP should NEVER reward for individual performance. You are part of a team. The team wins and loses. Not one person.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    From a PvP perspective, the only possible thing to reward is winning, which (assuming the game is balanced) requires your healers to heal, your DPS to do damage, and everyone on your team to suck less than the opponents. I don't see the need to track specific stats for reward purposes except in team-based PvE engagements (i.e. Fleet Actions) where the only current measure of success is damage done.

    The PvP reward system is fine, such as it is. The fleet action system needs the update.
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