I play as a Fed and a Klingon, and PvP needs a major overhaul. A klingon hits a fed with a stun gun and the fed freezes for a good 10-20 seconds. A fed hits a klingon with a stun gun and the klingon freezes for maybe 4 seconds. That's it. 4 seconds. I've been hit with one personal weapon shot that goes right through my personal shields and my body armor and kills my fed engineer. One shot does over 1700 points of damage. It's the magic button again. The one shot kill that is in every MMORPG. I thought by now that someone would have the guts to get rid of it but I guess that I was wrong.
I really hate doing my PvP dailies. I hate them. My science officer is a joke. He has Viral Matrix III and I hit a klingon ship with that and 2 seconds later they are free. I get hit with any Viral Matrix and it doesn't matter what I hit, because I am not breaking free. It's a kill everytime. All I can do is sit there and watch my ship explode. Hurray!! Then add on this mysterious power that some Klingons have that allows them to do direct damage to your hull. My shields stay at a full 100% and I sit and watch my hull go from 100 to 0 in about 5 seconds. As my ship explodes, my shields are still at 100%. I mean it's bad enough being hit with 2 or 3 Dual Heavy Tetryon Cannons with Rapid Fire II or III (when that happens, by the time I hit my Emergency Power to Shields III and/or my Reverse Shield Polarity my ship is cosmic dust), but a "Magic" weapon that doesn't touch the shields but does the hull, why that's insane.
I am really hoping that Cryptic does something about these problems. If they don't I know a lot of people who will quit the game. Hopefully I won't be one of them (being a lifetime subscriber), but if this keeps up, well then I'd rather play my PS3.
My science officer is a joke. He has Viral Matrix III and I hit a klingon ship with that and 2 seconds later they are free. I get hit with any Viral Matrix and it doesn't matter what I hit, because I am not breaking free. It's a kill everytime. All I can do is sit there and watch my ship explode. Hurray!!
Do you mean your science team isn't clearing the effect?
The klingon generally is going to break free, because every klingon has science team now because hey, Viral Matrix is kind of nasty and you've got to counter it. (There's several nasty ways to make it stick, of course. Mostly because science team only clears one debuff, so vm + jam sensors or vm + another vm + another frigg'n vm means you're still held. And, you know, subnucleonic beam. >_<)
Another player complaining about PVP tools/mechanics that both sides have access too but it somehow has to be the KLINGON's fault. I'll have to remember that the next time I get sub nuced for 45 secs, VM spammed, and getting hit by FBP that litterally can rip my ship in half but thats just the tip of the iceberg.
The difference is simple - we klingons have learned to counter most of these abilities - some of which still has no couter except for a good team that will keep you breathing despite being disabled/unable to act, and so on.
are you specced into sensor probes?
do you have the sci consoles that improve sensor probes?
do you have all the other sensor skills?
do you have a deflector dish that improves sensors and more specifically sensor probes?
what level viral matrix are you using?
what is your AUX power setting?
All of what i just said above affect the duration of viral matrix. ALL OF THEM!!! if you dont have as many of the other guys... it wont last as long.
there are also hard counters to viral matrix. attack pattern OMEGA removes viral matrix and makes you immune to all holds during its duration and can be used when affected by viral matrix.
SCI TEAM is another counter, you can activate as you see the little purple ball of pain coming at you and shortly after viral matrix hits, SCI TEAM can cleanse it, not always. also, another player can drop sci team on you and it can remove viral matrix. infact i do this if i see a teammate under effects of viral matrix.
As it has been said above, viral matrix is getting tweaked so it is a random sub system, but durations will still be affected by those questions above. more counters are being added.
PVP will always be getting tweaked, powers always adjusted, claimed as weak or OP, live with it. if you arent happy with viral matrix, dont use it. find another high level power to use, just remember you are specced into it and have the consoles and ship equipment to back it up.
Another player complaining about PVP tools/mechanics that both sides have access too but it somehow has to be the KLINGON's fault. I'll have to remember that the next time I get sub nuced for 45 secs, VM spammed, and getting hit by FBP that litterally can rip my ship in half but thats just the tip of the iceberg.
The difference is simple - we klingons have learned to counter most of these abilities - some of which still has no couter except for a good team that will keep you breathing despite being disabled/unable to act, and so on.
Serpieri, don't take it the wrong way. I have nothing against the klingons. I love the teamwork involved to play one. I wish the Feds would learn that, but it appears to be too difficult to do. Feds love to run off in 5 different directions. You would hope they would learn from it, but they don't.
I play both sides and I've never gone up against a fed ship that can bypass my shields completely and just do hull damage. I've spoken to a lot of klingons and they say the same thing. FBP does hull damage but it also does shield damage too. Also FBP is garbage, I think it should be really nerfed. Same thing with all the holds. A 45 second hold just ruins the game. It's a joke. I think 5 to 10 seconds is more than enough. I've hit every button and skill I had and have and nothing works.
All I'm saying is that the major skills like that have to be nerfed. It appears that the Klingons are the only ones to have the magic beam that destroys hulls and leaves shields at 100%.
are you specced into sensor probes?
do you have the sci consoles that improve sensor probes?
do you have all the other sensor skills?
do you have a deflector dish that improves sensors and more specifically sensor probes?
what level viral matrix are you using?
what is your AUX power setting?
All of what i just said above affect the duration of viral matrix. ALL OF THEM!!! if you dont have as many of the other guys... it wont last as long.
there are also hard counters to viral matrix. attack pattern OMEGA removes viral matrix and makes you immune to all holds during its duration and can be used when affected by viral matrix.
SCI TEAM is another counter, you can activate as you see the little purple ball of pain coming at you and shortly after viral matrix hits, SCI TEAM can cleanse it, not always. also, another player can drop sci team on you and it can remove viral matrix. infact i do this if i see a teammate under effects of viral matrix.
As it has been said above, viral matrix is getting tweaked so it is a random sub system, but durations will still be affected by those questions above. more counters are being added.
PVP will always be getting tweaked, powers always adjusted, claimed as weak or OP, live with it. if you arent happy with viral matrix, dont use it. find another high level power to use, just remember you are specced into it and have the consoles and ship equipment to back it up.
I had my science ship completely specced out for VM 3. Every skill needed was at 9, I had 3 Science Consoles - Sensor Probes Mk X Uncommon. And poof, nothing but a joke. It was most annoying. So I switched around yet again and went to a comfortable mish mash that has its positives and negatives. I've used Sci Team as soon as I've been hit by it and nothing happens. My ship's systems die for 45 seconds, which is more than enough time for the Klingons to destroy me. I know VM 3 is like this on both sides, and I think they need to nerf all of the "Hold" and "Root" skills. It's just way too long.
They probablly getting free fast due to Pattern Omega.
And Cryptic claims to be working on the balancing, but really they didn't put any thought into having two sets of values for PvP and PvE. But really, given their solutions so far, it seems its going to make problems worse.
I had my science ship completely specced out for VM 3. Every skill needed was at 9, I had 3 Science Consoles - Sensor Probes Mk X Uncommon. And poof, nothing but a joke. It was most annoying. So I switched around yet again and went to a comfortable mish mash that has its positives and negatives. I've used Sci Team as soon as I've been hit by it and nothing happens. My ship's systems die for 45 seconds, which is more than enough time for the Klingons to destroy me. I know VM 3 is like this on both sides, and I think they need to nerf all of the "Hold" and "Root" skills. It's just way too long.
fair enough, i wasnt tryin to down play you, but i always try to tackle the obvious first.
okay, they are probably using attack pattern omega, and despite the description, sci team only has a chance to remove viral matrix (from being a victim myself of it).
there has been talk that they are reworking viral matrix (i cant any links to day, i am such a forums tard :rolleyes:) from what i remember reading a few days ago, they are looking at changing it to disable a random subsystem and eng team is suppose to have a chance (or will) to remove it and are suppose to fix the sci team not working. in converse, i see them altering the duration and maybe the cool down (making shorter since it isnt so debilitating any more)
As i said, this is from memory, my forum-fu is failing me, and failing me bad. i am a weak grass-hopper.
Serpieri, don't take it the wrong way. I have nothing against the klingons. I love the teamwork involved to play one. I wish the Feds would learn that, but it appears to be too difficult to do. Feds love to run off in 5 different directions. You would hope they would learn from it, but they don't.
I play both sides and I've never gone up against a fed ship that can bypass my shields completely and just do hull damage. I've spoken to a lot of klingons and they say the same thing. FBP does hull damage but it also does shield damage too. Also FBP is garbage, I think it should be really nerfed. Same thing with all the holds. A 45 second hold just ruins the game. It's a joke. I think 5 to 10 seconds is more than enough. I've hit every button and skill I had and have and nothing works.
All I'm saying is that the major skills like that have to be nerfed. It appears that the Klingons are the only ones to have the magic beam that destroys hulls and leaves shields at 100%.
I can easily bypass your shields with my fed escort, I can drop around 75 power currently and if I decied to pay an outrageous amount for the grandfathered sci consoles I can increase that even further. The ability is called Beam: Target Sheilds III and its much more accessible on the Fed side then on the Klingons. Sadly, my Klingon can only do around 50 with BTS II. FBP, VM, Sub Nuc - they will be get adjusted - they are not fun - total agreement here.
I can easily bypass your shields with my fed escort, I can drop around 75 power currently and if I decied to pay an outrageous amount for the grandfathered sci consoles I can increase that even further. The ability is called Beam: Target Sheilds III and its much more accessible on the Fed side then on the Klingons. Sadly, my Klingon can only do around 50 with BTS II. FBP, VM, Sub Nuc - they will be get adjusted - they are not fun - total agreement here.
Sorry it took so long to respond to Serpieri's post. I have Beam: Target Shields. I've used it many many times. When you use it, the opponent's shields will drop before any hull damage is done. This is just plan hull damage, while the shield stays 100% full.
For more on this, read Caligulaa's post "What is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp" posted on 03-31-2010, 02:13 AM.
This post has been sidetracked - by me, I take the blame. All I want to say here is that PvP needs an overhaul. On ground missions there shouldn't be any "magic" one shot kills with shields and armor. If the shields are down and health is 50% I can see it, but not right thru full shields. I can't see anyone dealing out 1700 points of damage with one shot. In space missions there shouldn't be a 45 second hold. I'm sorry but that's what I feel. I have VM3 on my RA5 science guy and I hate using it (even though my holds are no where near 45 secs).
Weapons and abilities need to be balanced evenly on both sides. I can see a 5 second hold in space. That would be a big advantage, as long as the enemy doesn't have the ability to do 40,000 points of damage in that 5 seconds. I would think that people would rather have a long fight than a 3 second massacre. I've been in ground fights with Klingons that lasted for 5 minutes and they were amazing. My heart was racing and it was so much fun. I've had them in space too. I think that would make the game more enjoyable.
They probablly getting free fast due to Pattern Omega.
And Cryptic claims to be working on the balancing, but really they didn't put any thought into having two sets of values for PvP and PvE. But really, given their solutions so far, it seems its going to make problems worse.
The Only thing that is active for me during VM is Science Team so Omega isn't available at that time. At least not on my Klingon.
Do you mean your science team isn't clearing the effect?
The klingon generally is going to break free, because every klingon has science team now because hey, Viral Matrix is kind of nasty and you've got to counter it. (There's several nasty ways to make it stick, of course. Mostly because science team only clears one debuff, so vm + jam sensors or vm + another vm + another frigg'n vm means you're still held. And, you know, subnucleonic beam. >_<)
science team will remove ONE debuff. if they hit you with vm then follow it up with jam sensors andyou hit science team - you're still vm'd
however bop pilots can get that omega III thing, making them immune to all cc
maybe one day cryptic will understand balance, and that a short time to kill makes pvp pathetic
This post has been sidetracked - by me, I take the blame. All I want to say here is that PvP needs an overhaul. On ground missions there shouldn't be any "magic" one shot kills with shields and armor. If the shields are down and health is 50% I can see it, but not right thru full shields. I can't see anyone dealing out 1700 points of damage with one shot.
There is no "magic button" in ground fights. Both sides have access to the same kits, weapons, armor and skills and the class balance in ground is actually rather good imo. One hit kills happen due to exposes and while theres tons of people complaining about expose kills its actually adding a tactical component.
The only magic there is the "G" button and that one you have on your keyboard as well. You see an exposed enemy, you press G and fire your sniper rifle and gone he is.
Theres several ways to avoid beeing one hit killed...
- don't let the enemy flank you, its your fault if you let them shoot in your back!
- don't stand, crouching and rolling helps tons.
- if your exposed take cover and wait until its gone before facing the enemy again, or let a sci/medic help you.
- slide around corners instead of running in, facing multiple opponents the same time easily results in a quick death.
- move together with a team and have them cover your back..
- use engineer deployments for cover (assuming you have them or your team has engineers)
- certain ground traits help with survival on ground quite a bit.. if you went all space, it was your choice.
- oh and if you aren't a ground build by skills... don't expect to win against others that are.
On a side note.. since people complain that much about statis/expose/exploit magic kills all the time, those sci debuff/dot expose abilitys have just a 10% chance to expose each.. takes multiple seconds to apply em all and requires some luck too. I've a tac and a sci and i kill easily faster on my tac without having to hope for luck on an expose at all..
Pvp don't need an overhaul.. in fact what they did to space so far in terms of overhaul was rather devastating, its escort online now with all the crazy dps increases.. i wish they would stop touching pvp and rather fix the queue issues first, those bad spawn points that make people stuck in doors (facility map) and the other bad spawn point in the space domination map and maybe add some auto teaming and faction broadcast channels - those are the real issues in pvp imo.
Pvp don't need an overhaul.. in fact what they did to space so far in terms of overhaul was rather devastating, its escort online now with all the crazy dps increases.. i wish they would stop touching pvp and rather fix the queue issues first, those bad spawn points that make people stuck in doors (facility map) and the other bad spawn point in the space domination map and maybe add some auto teaming and faction broadcast channels - those are the real issues in pvp imo.
Yes, you are right. It is all about Escorts. And also the abuse of abilities (especially science abilities). Thats why Cryptic is nerfing them, which will surely put a dampener on PvE.
In fact, much of these troubles were noticed back in Closed Beta, but Cryptic didn't listen because they had to rush out the game.
Escorts were too powerful (and even more so).
Cruisers have weak shields and have to rely on RSP to stay in the game, and their firepower is pretty mediocre.
Science Abilities were too much for PvP.
Klingons lacking stronger foreward shields and weak rear shields (as per canon).
And of course the overuse of Heavy cannons, which supposed to be only carried by Battlecruisers.
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.
Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.
FBP does hull damage but it also does shield damage too.
No. It doesn't. It will, when the patch hits, but right now it does 100% of its damage directly to the attacker's hull.
How do you expect your complaints to be taken seriously when you can't even demonstrate that you understand the mechanics of the game you're complaining about?
If you're going to complain about FvK balance issues, you probably need to complain about the things that are actually different. Universal BOff stations on the Bird of Prey. Cannons on Klingon Battlecruisers. Carriers. The almighty Cloak. Complain about those if you must, but stop wasting our time with stupid TRIBBLE like the OP's pathetic "Klingon VM lasts way longer than mine, nerf Klingons" idiocy. That's what it is; idiocy.
There are real balance problems, of which Cloak is the most obvious example. But Klingons don't have magic hull-killing beams, their holds don't magically last longer than Fed equivalents, and they don't have uber survival skills that make their ships super awesome compared to Fed versions. Back up your complaints with screenshots, video, or data. Don't just ***** and hope to be taken seriously.
Yes, you are right. It is all about Escorts. And also the abuse of abilities (especially science abilities). Thats why Cryptic is nerfing them, which will surely put a dampener on PvE.
Theres no abuse of abilities, specialising and maxing stuff out is perfectly legal in games. The reason why they will nerf them is the huge amount of whining about them from people that can't handle it. While the subnuc change is most welcome by me, i think they heavily overdo it on the other two.
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.
STO only has 3 classes and rather few abilities compared to other MMO's and thus the ground pvp imo needs to be the way it is or it would be very boring. In fact its the FPS parts of it that makes it fun for me like flanking shots, having to run/roll for cover when exposed and all that.. thats also what makes it require a lot of teamplay.. and in the end its teamplay that makes it addictive for me (when playing with the right peeps).
If they try to turn it into a wow like pvp it will be a lot more boring as sto doesn't feature enough classes/abilitys for that to be entertaining.. be carefull what you wish for, the game (mostly pve) is already boring enough.. at least for me its just the pvp that keeps me here at all atm.
Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.
True. Although worth to mention its their choice to go there, they could as well just do the exploration for it and avoid the grief for themself / their teammates and their enemies as well.
No. It doesn't. It will, when the patch hits, but right now it does 100% of its damage directly to the attacker's hull.
How do you expect your complaints to be taken seriously when you can't even demonstrate that you understand the mechanics of the game you're complaining about?
If you're going to complain about FvK balance issues, you probably need to complain about the things that are actually different. Universal BOff stations on the Bird of Prey. Cannons on Klingon Battlecruisers. Carriers. The almighty Cloak. Complain about those if you must, but stop wasting our time with stupid TRIBBLE like the OP's pathetic "Klingon VM lasts way longer than mine, nerf Klingons" idiocy. That's what it is; idiocy.
There are real balance problems, of which Cloak is the most obvious example. But Klingons don't have magic hull-killing beams, their holds don't magically last longer than Fed equivalents, and they don't have uber survival skills that make their ships super awesome compared to Fed versions. Back up your complaints with screenshots, video, or data. Don't just ***** and hope to be taken seriously.
I think a lot of the differences you mentions between the Klingon and the Federation faction are mostly making balance issues in other areas far worse.
1) Universal BO stations are "bad" when certain skills are more powerful than others or stack too good. Without universal slots, people have to mix their abilities. Even if a power is "OP", they can have only a limited number of such powers. Some powers combinations and power-stackings might effectively be impossible without BO stations. But if the powers were balanced against each other and their stacking would work in a sensible manner, this problem wouldn't be big.
2) Cannons on Cruisers are only powerful because the DPS gains from Cannons in generally are probably too high, and the skills boosting them in combination make things worse, too. Also, the maneuverability differences between Fed and Klingon Cruisers are significant, so even giving Dual Cannons to Fed Cruisers would be useless as they couldn't bring them to bear while Klingon Cruisers can. Fixing the skills and the weapon istelf would do a lot to lessen this effect.
3) Cloak is so problematic because bringing down an opponent can be very fast due to the high amounts of damage one can inflict in a short period of time - and you can combine "lock-down" abilities (like Subneclonic Beam or Viral Matrix) If this damage was less and insufficient to bring down an opponent within the first few seconds, counter-abilities/heals would help, maneuvering would help. People would have reaction time. Also, the Federation bonuses to shield and hull would actually matter. In essence, cloak would work just fine if you would need 15-30 seconds to bring down a cruiser that doesn't fight back.
There is still a danger in several powers after such a fix - they could become too powerful. If Healing powers give out more healing than typical DPS gives. If Reverse Shield Polarity and similar damage negation skills recharge too quickly or last too long so that even sustained firepower doesn't bring the shields down.
What would be required here is a solid mathematical framework describing the influence of energy settings, powers, and recharge times to analyze their effects.
The big challenge is that the system is still very complex. You have
- Shield Hit Points.
- Shield Regeneration
- Bleedthrough
- Damage Resistance
- Hull Points
- Hull Repair
- Weapon Damage
- Weapon Procs
- Weapon Firearcs
- Energy Levels
- Various Power Effects
- Power Duration
- Power Cooldown
- Turning Rate
Actually "making sense" of how they all interact is very difficult. That "solid mathematical framework" is a dream that can never come through. So play-testing and some guesstimations will have to do. It could also help to balance certain aspects as a group. That's bascially what hey are trying to do with weapon damage and fire arcs, for example. But it might not take into account other important factors, like turning rate, or at least not well enough.
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.
Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.
So Cryptic has a long way to go.
lol nice, so since its not standerd mmo pvp it needs to be changed? i like how it is, its fun and fast paced and uses tactics to stay out of fire, go play the default if your not enjoying it rather then complaining that its new. just beacuse its different does not mean it needs an overhaul. as for space i havent done it much so no comment there
also the marks are for pvp and pve so that you can do what you perfer. if you dont want to
pvp just dont do it, it will take longer but you still will get the stuff, if gear is that important then man up. they are trying not to pigion hole you onto doing one thing.
Another player complaining about PVP tools/mechanics that both sides have access too but it somehow has to be the KLINGON's fault. I'll have to remember that the next time I get sub nuced for 45 secs, VM spammed, and getting hit by FBP that litterally can rip my ship in half but thats just the tip of the iceberg.
The difference is simple - we klingons have learned to counter most of these abilities - some of which still has no couter except for a good team that will keep you breathing despite being disabled/unable to act, and so on.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if you're Fed or Klink, in a game where ship combat is supposed to be modeled after "tall ship combat" we're vaporizing hull and shields on an enemy ship in 6 - 7 seconds. It doesn't matter how your ship is configured or what your loadout is or how good you are at countering the enemy's tactics. That's the true imbalance, not somebody complaining that his viral matrix doesn't last as long as somebody else's.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if you're Fed or Klink, in a game where ship combat is supposed to be modeled after "tall ship combat" we're vaporizing hull and shields on an enemy ship in 6 - 7 seconds.
As an observation, I agree 100% that combat is too fast right now. However, there's a pretty strong undercurrent of "well, in the TV shows it doesn't work this way" when that's almost categorically untrue. Ship v ship encounters in Star Trek TV are almost invariably over in seconds. I could come up with dozens of examples where ships are destroyed in literally one or two shots.
Off the top of my head:
- DS9 vs Klingon Fleet
- Enterprise-D against Duras Sisters BoP in Generations.
- Defiant vs Cardassian ships in DS9 episode Defiant
- Federation vs Dominion in DS9 episode Sacrifice of Angels
Canon Star Trek is not a mythical world where spaceships shoot each other for minutes at a time, largely because canon Star Trek is limited by special effects budgets. In fact, I would argue that very few ship engagements in canon Star Trek lasted longer than a minute, ever.
Again, I totally agree that space combat needs to slow down a bit. I'm just pointing out that canon is not your ally in this discussion.
I'm saying this as an exclusive escort player. I don't think PvP needs to slow down - what needs to slow down is the rate that escorts kill cruisers. I think the rate which I currently kill other escorts is appropriate for canon but a cruiser? They're going to fix shield power though and I think that will slow things down a bit.
I play as a Fed and a Klingon, and PvP needs a major overhaul. A klingon hits a fed with a stun gun and the fed freezes for a good 10-20 seconds. A fed hits a klingon with a stun gun and the klingon freezes for maybe 4 seconds. That's it. 4 seconds.
klingon players are a lot more likely to build characters with ground PvP in mind, meaning they are a lot more likely to take the racial abilities which reduce holds than Federation players. On the Fed side it's not unusual for players to completely ignore both ground traits and skills. Both sides have access to the exact same things though, and when you do a lot of ground PvP you can kind of see who spent points where.
I've been hit with one personal weapon shot that goes right through my personal shields and my body armor and kills my fed engineer. One shot does over 1700 points of damage. It's the magic button again. The one shot kill that is in every MMORPG. I thought by now that someone would have the guts to get rid of it but I guess that I was wrong.
Are you talking about expose/exploit combos? Those are at least 2 shots no matter what happens. When you get hit once you should be breaking line of sight.
Sniper rifles do a ton of damage in 1 hit. They have a long cooldown and are slow to fire to balance it.
Tactical officers have a lot of skills which boost weapon damage. Many fed players don't take them, but they are there, and they boost ground DPS significantly.
My tactical officer tends to hit Engineers harder than other classes because engineers like Weapon Malfunction, and the power cells I use to cleanse that increase damage significantly.
I'm gonna call BS on the 1-shot though. The closest you can get to a 1-shot even with flank crits is: exploit attack, weapon swap, normal attack, exploit attack. Even with expose/exploit combos that's still 2 attacks and if the target had any type of damage resistance buffs you'll need a third to finish.
Where most people TRIBBLE up is that they try to play STO like it was WoW, and rely on their abilities and healing to resist damage. The way ground PvP in STO works, when you take a hit you need to move out of line of sight. You don't fire back, you don't stand there and try to heal your shields, you roll behind cover immediately. Everybody can take 1 hit, but when you take 2-3 it gets risky.
1 hit shots are very possible in ground pvp, if you stack racial crit chance + crit-severity stats + damage output, throw on a crit chance/severity armor, aim and fire a sniper rifle overcharged shot with a flank (sometimes with tac buffs + skills) and whala dead in one crit-flank shot. It's been done to me and I've done it to others.
Though once you start getting energy damage resistance armor/shields and keep your defensive skills up and that rarely happens. It also happens less in higher rank ground PvP as the growth for resist, hp, and shields is greater than damage growth.
As an observation, I agree 100% that combat is too fast right now. However, there's a pretty strong undercurrent of "well, in the TV shows it doesn't work this way" when that's almost categorically untrue. Ship v ship encounters in Star Trek TV are almost invariably over in seconds. I could come up with dozens of examples where ships are destroyed in literally one or two shots.
Off the top of my head:
- DS9 vs Klingon Fleet
- Enterprise-D against Duras Sisters BoP in Generations.
- Defiant vs Cardassian ships in DS9 episode Defiant
- Federation vs Dominion in DS9 episode Sacrifice of Angels
Canon Star Trek is not a mythical world where spaceships shoot each other for minutes at a time, largely because canon Star Trek is limited by special effects budgets. In fact, I would argue that very few ship engagements in canon Star Trek lasted longer than a minute, ever.
Again, I totally agree that space combat needs to slow down a bit. I'm just pointing out that canon is not your ally in this discussion.
TOS (including the original crew movies) features space combat that usually takes time. There is an episode where the Enterprise is attacked by multiple Romulan ships for long enough to resolve a leadership crisis aboard. There is an episode where the Enterprise dukes it out with a single Romulan Bird of Prey, both Captains using elaborate tactics to win over their foe. The combat against Khan and the combat against the Klingon BoP in Undiscovered Country take quite some time.
In Nemesis, the fight against the Scimitar takes so long that the Enterprise is out of its torpedo reserves and even the phaser banks are empty. In First Contact, the battle against the Borg near Earth takes long enough for the Enterprise to fly from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth. And several ships are still fighting at that time. In Deep Space Nine, the episode where Worf is charged with war crimes by the Klingons, the Klingons ship followed and harassed the civilian ships and Worf for what seems like hours.
In the end, combats take as long as is approriate for the drama of the show. If the writers haven't written about a 4 hour long space battle, it won't be seen on screen. If they want to fill an entire episode with battle tactics and showing the combattants plans and strategies, that's how long the combat will take.
Thematically, "long" combats make the most sense. These are ships filled with hundreds of crewmen. Captain and First Officer are seen discussing combat maneuvers verbally. If combat could be decided in a few seconds, that just would not work, and the dangers and risks of warfare seem far too extreme.
Just in case the OP is still reading this....Right
The shield thing, you spoke to some but not all of the klings....It's happened to me many times where I lose all my hull without any shields, there has been many threads about this already. I only have one beam array now and wasn't even using it at the time, which stops the FBP answer that you will get most of the time.
VM you will find now any kling worth his salt with have at least one way to get out of it, I have two Sci 1 & att pattern omega 3
I'am getting very bored with this "it's klings that do this blah blah", we all have the same skills and BO skills.
Because Feds lose way more and get pawned alot of the time you will find things happen to you alot more, which makes it seem that klings so called "cheat",only in cap & hold do I get VM spammed because of the number of feds in there and it's where 95% of the time I lose my hull before shields.
ie you notice stuff alot more when your getting your TRIBBLE kicked instead of not being attacked all the time.
P.s yes fights could do with lasting a bit longer.....but please stop with the "in star trek" this happens etc
this is a bloody game if fights lasted an hour or more you wouldn't get anything done.
This game is "based" on Star Trek not copying it to the letter
Comments
Do you mean your science team isn't clearing the effect?
The klingon generally is going to break free, because every klingon has science team now because hey, Viral Matrix is kind of nasty and you've got to counter it. (There's several nasty ways to make it stick, of course. Mostly because science team only clears one debuff, so vm + jam sensors or vm + another vm + another frigg'n vm means you're still held. And, you know, subnucleonic beam. >_<)
The difference is simple - we klingons have learned to counter most of these abilities - some of which still has no couter except for a good team that will keep you breathing despite being disabled/unable to act, and so on.
are you specced into sensor probes?
do you have the sci consoles that improve sensor probes?
do you have all the other sensor skills?
do you have a deflector dish that improves sensors and more specifically sensor probes?
what level viral matrix are you using?
what is your AUX power setting?
All of what i just said above affect the duration of viral matrix. ALL OF THEM!!! if you dont have as many of the other guys... it wont last as long.
there are also hard counters to viral matrix. attack pattern OMEGA removes viral matrix and makes you immune to all holds during its duration and can be used when affected by viral matrix.
SCI TEAM is another counter, you can activate as you see the little purple ball of pain coming at you and shortly after viral matrix hits, SCI TEAM can cleanse it, not always. also, another player can drop sci team on you and it can remove viral matrix. infact i do this if i see a teammate under effects of viral matrix.
As it has been said above, viral matrix is getting tweaked so it is a random sub system, but durations will still be affected by those questions above. more counters are being added.
PVP will always be getting tweaked, powers always adjusted, claimed as weak or OP, live with it. if you arent happy with viral matrix, dont use it. find another high level power to use, just remember you are specced into it and have the consoles and ship equipment to back it up.
Serpieri, don't take it the wrong way. I have nothing against the klingons. I love the teamwork involved to play one. I wish the Feds would learn that, but it appears to be too difficult to do. Feds love to run off in 5 different directions. You would hope they would learn from it, but they don't.
I play both sides and I've never gone up against a fed ship that can bypass my shields completely and just do hull damage. I've spoken to a lot of klingons and they say the same thing. FBP does hull damage but it also does shield damage too. Also FBP is garbage, I think it should be really nerfed. Same thing with all the holds. A 45 second hold just ruins the game. It's a joke. I think 5 to 10 seconds is more than enough. I've hit every button and skill I had and have and nothing works.
All I'm saying is that the major skills like that have to be nerfed. It appears that the Klingons are the only ones to have the magic beam that destroys hulls and leaves shields at 100%.
I had my science ship completely specced out for VM 3. Every skill needed was at 9, I had 3 Science Consoles - Sensor Probes Mk X Uncommon. And poof, nothing but a joke. It was most annoying. So I switched around yet again and went to a comfortable mish mash that has its positives and negatives. I've used Sci Team as soon as I've been hit by it and nothing happens. My ship's systems die for 45 seconds, which is more than enough time for the Klingons to destroy me. I know VM 3 is like this on both sides, and I think they need to nerf all of the "Hold" and "Root" skills. It's just way too long.
And Cryptic claims to be working on the balancing, but really they didn't put any thought into having two sets of values for PvP and PvE. But really, given their solutions so far, it seems its going to make problems worse.
fair enough, i wasnt tryin to down play you, but i always try to tackle the obvious first.
okay, they are probably using attack pattern omega, and despite the description, sci team only has a chance to remove viral matrix (from being a victim myself of it).
there has been talk that they are reworking viral matrix (i cant any links to day, i am such a forums tard :rolleyes:) from what i remember reading a few days ago, they are looking at changing it to disable a random subsystem and eng team is suppose to have a chance (or will) to remove it and are suppose to fix the sci team not working. in converse, i see them altering the duration and maybe the cool down (making shorter since it isnt so debilitating any more)
As i said, this is from memory, my forum-fu is failing me, and failing me bad. i am a weak grass-hopper.
I can easily bypass your shields with my fed escort, I can drop around 75 power currently and if I decied to pay an outrageous amount for the grandfathered sci consoles I can increase that even further. The ability is called Beam: Target Sheilds III and its much more accessible on the Fed side then on the Klingons. Sadly, my Klingon can only do around 50 with BTS II. FBP, VM, Sub Nuc - they will be get adjusted - they are not fun - total agreement here.
Sorry it took so long to respond to Serpieri's post. I have Beam: Target Shields. I've used it many many times. When you use it, the opponent's shields will drop before any hull damage is done. This is just plan hull damage, while the shield stays 100% full.
For more on this, read Caligulaa's post "What is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp" posted on 03-31-2010, 02:13 AM.
This post has been sidetracked - by me, I take the blame. All I want to say here is that PvP needs an overhaul. On ground missions there shouldn't be any "magic" one shot kills with shields and armor. If the shields are down and health is 50% I can see it, but not right thru full shields. I can't see anyone dealing out 1700 points of damage with one shot. In space missions there shouldn't be a 45 second hold. I'm sorry but that's what I feel. I have VM3 on my RA5 science guy and I hate using it (even though my holds are no where near 45 secs).
Weapons and abilities need to be balanced evenly on both sides. I can see a 5 second hold in space. That would be a big advantage, as long as the enemy doesn't have the ability to do 40,000 points of damage in that 5 seconds. I would think that people would rather have a long fight than a 3 second massacre. I've been in ground fights with Klingons that lasted for 5 minutes and they were amazing. My heart was racing and it was so much fun. I've had them in space too. I think that would make the game more enjoyable.
The Only thing that is active for me during VM is Science Team so Omega isn't available at that time. At least not on my Klingon.
science team will remove ONE debuff. if they hit you with vm then follow it up with jam sensors andyou hit science team - you're still vm'd
however bop pilots can get that omega III thing, making them immune to all cc
maybe one day cryptic will understand balance, and that a short time to kill makes pvp pathetic
There is no "magic button" in ground fights. Both sides have access to the same kits, weapons, armor and skills and the class balance in ground is actually rather good imo. One hit kills happen due to exposes and while theres tons of people complaining about expose kills its actually adding a tactical component.
The only magic there is the "G" button and that one you have on your keyboard as well. You see an exposed enemy, you press G and fire your sniper rifle and gone he is.
Theres several ways to avoid beeing one hit killed...
- don't let the enemy flank you, its your fault if you let them shoot in your back!
- don't stand, crouching and rolling helps tons.
- if your exposed take cover and wait until its gone before facing the enemy again, or let a sci/medic help you.
- slide around corners instead of running in, facing multiple opponents the same time easily results in a quick death.
- move together with a team and have them cover your back..
- use engineer deployments for cover (assuming you have them or your team has engineers)
- certain ground traits help with survival on ground quite a bit.. if you went all space, it was your choice.
- oh and if you aren't a ground build by skills... don't expect to win against others that are.
On a side note.. since people complain that much about statis/expose/exploit magic kills all the time, those sci debuff/dot expose abilitys have just a 10% chance to expose each.. takes multiple seconds to apply em all and requires some luck too. I've a tac and a sci and i kill easily faster on my tac without having to hope for luck on an expose at all..
Pvp don't need an overhaul.. in fact what they did to space so far in terms of overhaul was rather devastating, its escort online now with all the crazy dps increases.. i wish they would stop touching pvp and rather fix the queue issues first, those bad spawn points that make people stuck in doors (facility map) and the other bad spawn point in the space domination map and maybe add some auto teaming and faction broadcast channels - those are the real issues in pvp imo.
Yes, you are right. It is all about Escorts. And also the abuse of abilities (especially science abilities). Thats why Cryptic is nerfing them, which will surely put a dampener on PvE.
In fact, much of these troubles were noticed back in Closed Beta, but Cryptic didn't listen because they had to rush out the game.
Escorts were too powerful (and even more so).
Cruisers have weak shields and have to rely on RSP to stay in the game, and their firepower is pretty mediocre.
Science Abilities were too much for PvP.
Klingons lacking stronger foreward shields and weak rear shields (as per canon).
And of course the overuse of Heavy cannons, which supposed to be only carried by Battlecruisers.
With Ground PvP, it was more of a Halo / FPS arena, than an MMO PVP. So Cryptic has a long way to go to make PvP actually viable.
Also it doesn't help with skewing PvP with Marks of Honor either, where PVErs come to PvP, just for these things so they can get geared up faster.
So Cryptic has a long way to go.
How do you expect your complaints to be taken seriously when you can't even demonstrate that you understand the mechanics of the game you're complaining about?
If you're going to complain about FvK balance issues, you probably need to complain about the things that are actually different. Universal BOff stations on the Bird of Prey. Cannons on Klingon Battlecruisers. Carriers. The almighty Cloak. Complain about those if you must, but stop wasting our time with stupid TRIBBLE like the OP's pathetic "Klingon VM lasts way longer than mine, nerf Klingons" idiocy. That's what it is; idiocy.
There are real balance problems, of which Cloak is the most obvious example. But Klingons don't have magic hull-killing beams, their holds don't magically last longer than Fed equivalents, and they don't have uber survival skills that make their ships super awesome compared to Fed versions. Back up your complaints with screenshots, video, or data. Don't just ***** and hope to be taken seriously.
Theres no abuse of abilities, specialising and maxing stuff out is perfectly legal in games. The reason why they will nerf them is the huge amount of whining about them from people that can't handle it. While the subnuc change is most welcome by me, i think they heavily overdo it on the other two.
STO only has 3 classes and rather few abilities compared to other MMO's and thus the ground pvp imo needs to be the way it is or it would be very boring. In fact its the FPS parts of it that makes it fun for me like flanking shots, having to run/roll for cover when exposed and all that.. thats also what makes it require a lot of teamplay.. and in the end its teamplay that makes it addictive for me (when playing with the right peeps).
If they try to turn it into a wow like pvp it will be a lot more boring as sto doesn't feature enough classes/abilitys for that to be entertaining.. be carefull what you wish for, the game (mostly pve) is already boring enough.. at least for me its just the pvp that keeps me here at all atm.
True. Although worth to mention its their choice to go there, they could as well just do the exploration for it and avoid the grief for themself / their teammates and their enemies as well.
I think a lot of the differences you mentions between the Klingon and the Federation faction are mostly making balance issues in other areas far worse.
1) Universal BO stations are "bad" when certain skills are more powerful than others or stack too good. Without universal slots, people have to mix their abilities. Even if a power is "OP", they can have only a limited number of such powers. Some powers combinations and power-stackings might effectively be impossible without BO stations. But if the powers were balanced against each other and their stacking would work in a sensible manner, this problem wouldn't be big.
2) Cannons on Cruisers are only powerful because the DPS gains from Cannons in generally are probably too high, and the skills boosting them in combination make things worse, too. Also, the maneuverability differences between Fed and Klingon Cruisers are significant, so even giving Dual Cannons to Fed Cruisers would be useless as they couldn't bring them to bear while Klingon Cruisers can. Fixing the skills and the weapon istelf would do a lot to lessen this effect.
3) Cloak is so problematic because bringing down an opponent can be very fast due to the high amounts of damage one can inflict in a short period of time - and you can combine "lock-down" abilities (like Subneclonic Beam or Viral Matrix) If this damage was less and insufficient to bring down an opponent within the first few seconds, counter-abilities/heals would help, maneuvering would help. People would have reaction time. Also, the Federation bonuses to shield and hull would actually matter. In essence, cloak would work just fine if you would need 15-30 seconds to bring down a cruiser that doesn't fight back.
There is still a danger in several powers after such a fix - they could become too powerful. If Healing powers give out more healing than typical DPS gives. If Reverse Shield Polarity and similar damage negation skills recharge too quickly or last too long so that even sustained firepower doesn't bring the shields down.
What would be required here is a solid mathematical framework describing the influence of energy settings, powers, and recharge times to analyze their effects.
The big challenge is that the system is still very complex. You have
- Shield Hit Points.
- Shield Regeneration
- Bleedthrough
- Damage Resistance
- Hull Points
- Hull Repair
- Weapon Damage
- Weapon Procs
- Weapon Firearcs
- Energy Levels
- Various Power Effects
- Power Duration
- Power Cooldown
- Turning Rate
Actually "making sense" of how they all interact is very difficult. That "solid mathematical framework" is a dream that can never come through. So play-testing and some guesstimations will have to do. It could also help to balance certain aspects as a group. That's bascially what hey are trying to do with weapon damage and fire arcs, for example. But it might not take into account other important factors, like turning rate, or at least not well enough.
lol nice, so since its not standerd mmo pvp it needs to be changed? i like how it is, its fun and fast paced and uses tactics to stay out of fire, go play the default if your not enjoying it rather then complaining that its new. just beacuse its different does not mean it needs an overhaul. as for space i havent done it much so no comment there
also the marks are for pvp and pve so that you can do what you perfer. if you dont want to
pvp just dont do it, it will take longer but you still will get the stuff, if gear is that important then man up. they are trying not to pigion hole you onto doing one thing.
Honestly, it doesn't matter if you're Fed or Klink, in a game where ship combat is supposed to be modeled after "tall ship combat" we're vaporizing hull and shields on an enemy ship in 6 - 7 seconds. It doesn't matter how your ship is configured or what your loadout is or how good you are at countering the enemy's tactics. That's the true imbalance, not somebody complaining that his viral matrix doesn't last as long as somebody else's.
Off the top of my head:
- DS9 vs Klingon Fleet
- Enterprise-D against Duras Sisters BoP in Generations.
- Defiant vs Cardassian ships in DS9 episode Defiant
- Federation vs Dominion in DS9 episode Sacrifice of Angels
Canon Star Trek is not a mythical world where spaceships shoot each other for minutes at a time, largely because canon Star Trek is limited by special effects budgets. In fact, I would argue that very few ship engagements in canon Star Trek lasted longer than a minute, ever.
Again, I totally agree that space combat needs to slow down a bit. I'm just pointing out that canon is not your ally in this discussion.
Are you talking about expose/exploit combos? Those are at least 2 shots no matter what happens. When you get hit once you should be breaking line of sight.
Sniper rifles do a ton of damage in 1 hit. They have a long cooldown and are slow to fire to balance it.
Tactical officers have a lot of skills which boost weapon damage. Many fed players don't take them, but they are there, and they boost ground DPS significantly.
My tactical officer tends to hit Engineers harder than other classes because engineers like Weapon Malfunction, and the power cells I use to cleanse that increase damage significantly.
I'm gonna call BS on the 1-shot though. The closest you can get to a 1-shot even with flank crits is: exploit attack, weapon swap, normal attack, exploit attack. Even with expose/exploit combos that's still 2 attacks and if the target had any type of damage resistance buffs you'll need a third to finish.
Where most people TRIBBLE up is that they try to play STO like it was WoW, and rely on their abilities and healing to resist damage. The way ground PvP in STO works, when you take a hit you need to move out of line of sight. You don't fire back, you don't stand there and try to heal your shields, you roll behind cover immediately. Everybody can take 1 hit, but when you take 2-3 it gets risky.
Though once you start getting energy damage resistance armor/shields and keep your defensive skills up and that rarely happens. It also happens less in higher rank ground PvP as the growth for resist, hp, and shields is greater than damage growth.
TOS (including the original crew movies) features space combat that usually takes time. There is an episode where the Enterprise is attacked by multiple Romulan ships for long enough to resolve a leadership crisis aboard. There is an episode where the Enterprise dukes it out with a single Romulan Bird of Prey, both Captains using elaborate tactics to win over their foe. The combat against Khan and the combat against the Klingon BoP in Undiscovered Country take quite some time.
In Nemesis, the fight against the Scimitar takes so long that the Enterprise is out of its torpedo reserves and even the phaser banks are empty. In First Contact, the battle against the Borg near Earth takes long enough for the Enterprise to fly from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth. And several ships are still fighting at that time. In Deep Space Nine, the episode where Worf is charged with war crimes by the Klingons, the Klingons ship followed and harassed the civilian ships and Worf for what seems like hours.
In the end, combats take as long as is approriate for the drama of the show. If the writers haven't written about a 4 hour long space battle, it won't be seen on screen. If they want to fill an entire episode with battle tactics and showing the combattants plans and strategies, that's how long the combat will take.
Thematically, "long" combats make the most sense. These are ships filled with hundreds of crewmen. Captain and First Officer are seen discussing combat maneuvers verbally. If combat could be decided in a few seconds, that just would not work, and the dangers and risks of warfare seem far too extreme.
The shield thing, you spoke to some but not all of the klings....It's happened to me many times where I lose all my hull without any shields, there has been many threads about this already. I only have one beam array now and wasn't even using it at the time, which stops the FBP answer that you will get most of the time.
VM you will find now any kling worth his salt with have at least one way to get out of it, I have two Sci 1 & att pattern omega 3
I'am getting very bored with this "it's klings that do this blah blah", we all have the same skills and BO skills.
Because Feds lose way more and get pawned alot of the time you will find things happen to you alot more, which makes it seem that klings so called "cheat",only in cap & hold do I get VM spammed because of the number of feds in there and it's where 95% of the time I lose my hull before shields.
ie you notice stuff alot more when your getting your TRIBBLE kicked instead of not being attacked all the time.
this is a bloody game if fights lasted an hour or more you wouldn't get anything done.
This game is "based" on Star Trek not copying it to the letter