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Season 1 Ground PvP blues.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I'm a Ferengi Science Officer most of the time these days and I love ground PvP. Or rather, I love what it could potentially be. However, this is a cry for understanding. I took a short break from the game as I wasn't sure I was going to stick around. At the end of this month, I will probably be leaving if things don't change drastically. It's too bad, but I'm a little frustrated and plan on returning when things improve. With that said, I have a few bones to pick with ground PvP and would like some answers.

I heal in ground PvP. I'll throw on a Medic kit and grouped or ungrouped, I'll do my best to keep the team up. This is the first red flag that disturbed me post patch. The thing is, pre-patch I was able to comfortably heal a group with just enough challenge to keep me from needing a nerf. Sure, if everyone was taking hard hits, I had to pick and choose and someone was probably going to go down. Post patch, I can't keep up with any focused damage. This makes me feel like a failure. My spec is accurate and I have the highest level of PvP gear I can get for each tier. I feel like I'm struggling to stay afloat when I'm up against any KDF team. The only games I have won are when they are vastly outnumbered by Federation.

Next up we have weapon damage. Again, I have upgraded my Split Beam and Pulse Wave rifles for a nice exploit/expose loadout. However, These seem to barely touch enemy shields. This goes back to my healing not seeming up to par as my allies drop too quickly for me to keep up. Why are my weapons hitting like a wet noodle while my allies are dropping like flies?

These are the two most pressing issues right now. Am I facing nothing but premades? Can PUG Federation teams not make the cut post LC bracket? I need to understand what's going on so I can fix it and am hoping for some insight from you folks.

Thanks.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Maybe this was the wrong place to post this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Jaime wrote:
    I heal in ground PvP. I'll throw on a Medic kit and grouped or ungrouped, I'll do my best to keep the team up.

    This makes you a target. A top target.

    From the Klingon side (which is where I do most of my ground PVP) ... we klingons tend to group up. It's just good habit. So when we're grouped ... we talk to each other. And 9 times out of 10, it's pretty easy for a PUG that even just got together and grouped up to ... 1- Prioritize Science Officers first. And 2- Focus fire. This means ... bang you're dead. That's just the tactics. It's a lot harder to kill you when you have a second Science Officer or a cagey engineer to back you up. But if you're not teamed up, and stuck with a lot of tact officers ... you're gonna die. A lot. That happens on the klingon side too.
    Next up we have weapon damage. Again, I have upgraded my Split Beam and Pulse Wave rifles for a nice exploit/expose loadout.

    Split Beams were nerfed hard in the patch. That loadout is a poor choice right now for any ground combat, and you feel it most in PVP.
    However, These seem to barely touch enemy shields.

    Correct. You are using the wrong weapon to attack shields.
    Why are my weapons hitting like a wet noodle while my allies are dropping like flies?

    2 reasons:

    1- Your weapons are wet noodles post patch.
    2- Klingon races get "stuck" with a ton of ground combat centric racial traits. If you're in ground PVP, there's a good chance even the "alien" race opponents you face took at least 1 ground trait. You face a Nausicaan or a Gorn for instance, and you're facing an opponent that has more innate ground power without even spending a single skill point. And if they do start spending skill points on ground skills because they want to PVP on the ground ... the gap widens.
    Am I facing nothing but premades?

    No. Klingons are a smaller group of the playerbase. And attract PVPers. And have to PVP a lot to level. You do face PUGs, but they are PUGs made up of PVPers who like to PVP and have to PVP to level. So they team up and already know their tactics. Feds have storyline missions. Which are amazing. But because of that you get less PVP minded feds.
    Can PUG Federation teams not make the cut post LC bracket?

    There are some amazing federation PVPers out there. And ground PVPers at that. I've been steamrolled but good by a well run team using good tactics. Federation ground PVP has the potential to win. You're just stuck in a larger pool of players that don't prioritize PVP as high as Klingons do.

    But you can fix your weapon choice. And get better results in terms of taking down someone's personal shields.

    The only hint I'll give you is ... it's not the two weapons you currently use. And it's not a pistol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I was using my medic kit the other day and I didn't feel nearly as powerful as I once did with it. I don't know if it is just perception or if something is truly off, but it sure feels different.

    I have been assuming that the whole slew of tacticals out there have simply respecced a bit and purchased the ground weapon enhancements. Most tacticals probably didn't have these skills before and now with the ability to remedy that, they have.

    I would suggest going offensive support, which is a role that I often find more useful to the team than the defensive healing. Your personal survivability won't be nearly as good as it was before patch though, so you might want to take a kit that has a mix of survivability and offense like the Xenobiologist kit (my personal choice) or the Analyst Kit.

    My main issue with the Analyst kit is the long cooldown on Triage.

    Honestly, if I could make my own kit, I would have Tachyon Harmonic, Stasis Field, Medical Tricorder, and Biofilter Sweep or Anesthizine Gas....depending on how generous they were feeling.

    As for weapon selection, I suggest going back in time and doing what most new players do and go with the Sniper Rifle as your exploit weapon. As for the expose, that is really up to you. I personally still enjoy my Pulse Rifle, but a number of people seem to be moving to assault weapons for heavier hitting regular shots. The regular fire on rifles is still my favorite though, even if the assault weapons have cooler animations :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Instead of condemning yourself to a support, heal-others role, you should try it out from another perspective. Think of yourself as a tank, paladin type role. With the medic kit, you can actually survive a lot of heavy focus fire. Exposes are not an issue because you can instantly cure them off of yourself.

    If you concentrate on healing yourself and getting all of your enemy's attention so they're all firing at you, that means your team mates aren't taking fire and they can proceed to attack the enemies without taking much damage themselves. So, though you're not really healing your allies much, you are supporting them by taking fire for them.

    The post update advantage of the medic kit is the ability to instantly cure exposes, since exposes do not paralyze you from using skills anymore. So, since you're not getting exposed-exploited, it's extremely difficult for a medic kit user to be killed if they're smart. Also, all item usage has a shared 30 second cool down, post update. This means healing skills are very, very useful now. Medics can outlast the damage during a skirmish while everyone else's health is slowly dwindling down and they're helpless because their hypos are in a cool down. This makes medics great tanks compared to all other classes if they know what they're doing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Surgery is the best science ground pvper in the game, so that advice goes much further than what anyone else can give you.

    All I will say is medic kit can make someone very hard to kill now. In a match over the weekend, a science Fed had over 20K healing in a match. I've never seen that.

    The medic never died to a single person - it always took a group to kill the medic. It was pretty impressive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    First, I'll swap out my split beam for a sniper. They were my original favorite and I had always wished they were more competitive.

    Concerning PUG groups, I try to group up with them anyway because it makes it easier for me to heal. However, they rarely attempt to communicate. When I do, I'm met with silence or "What's focus fire?". So they get an explanation while KDF gets a nice 15 kill buffer.

    On to my kit. First, I thought my heals did cure exposes pre-patch? Maybe that was just coincidence, but I thought I saw them falling off. Maybe it was broken at the time. Second, that whole PvP tank idea is why I also have an Engineer. I see how spam healing yourself because you're the healer/target helps in other competitive PvP games, but I'm not sure I like the idea of running in first. Maybe after they catch on?

    I do have an Analyst/Xenobio kit I keep on the side for PvE missions and some PvP, but I get even more frustrated when I can't save someone. My heals simply don't feel useful. Maybe the KDF PUGs are picking a target and focus firing, Surgery, but most of the time they're not doing it to me and I can't keep up with healing their actual target, never mind myself. Like I said, my feels don't feel like they're good enough in any PvP situation.

    If I do leave for awhile, that's the biggest thing I'm going to miss. Being able to play something that heals as well as does damage. I hate being pigeon holed into one or the other and Star Trek Online closed that gap for me. I love it.

    Maybe I'll spend the last month catching my Orion Sci up to you, Surgery. Then I can see how the best do it. I do want a Carrier quite badly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I generally get my butt kicked in PVP too, as a medic. But I also do much less ground PVP than space.

    One thing to consider is being a proactive healer instead of reactive. Have a guy that likes to take too much fire? Heal him before he gets hurt.

    The heals have a resistance buff component to them as well, which lasts basically until the cooldown is up and you can reapply it. That is why medics can tank so well. So even if you heal someone at full health with your medical tricorder, any damage they take in the next 5s is reduced by half (or whatever based on diminishing returns), and that should give them enough survivability that you can heal them again.

    When I remember to do that, whether I'm buffing myself or someone else, I find it works nicely, and its also useful in PVE when you need to tank some boss or something. I just don't always get it right.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Foxrocks wrote:
    I generally get my butt kicked in PVP too, as a medic. But I also do much less ground PVP than space.

    One thing to consider is being a proactive healer instead of reactive. Have a guy that likes to take too much fire? Heal him before he gets hurt.

    The heals have a resistance buff component to them as well, which lasts basically until the cooldown is up and you can reapply it. That is why medics can tank so well. So even if you heal someone at full health with your medical tricorder, any damage they take in the next 5s is reduced by half (or whatever based on diminishing returns), and that should give them enough survivability that you can heal them again.

    When I remember to do that, whether I'm buffing myself or someone else, I find it works nicely, and its also useful in PVE when you need to tank some boss or something. I just don't always get it right.

    I do do this, but I'm very cautious about wasting that emergency M. Tri for a damage resist. I will, however, not hesitate to throw Vasc Reg on someone that likes to get up front.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Been playing again for a bit. Even with an optimal weapon output, I still can't help but feel something changed and effected my heal strength.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    You feel like your heal is 'weaker' because of the way items now have a 30 second shared cool down. People are more hesitant to pop a hypo to full health because doing so at an unwise time could mean their death shortly after. So, PVPers tend to wait until the very last moment before using hypos now. Therefore, you, a healer, may find yourself having to do more work because everyone else is purposefully holding out on healing themselves with hypos.
    Jaime wrote:
    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    On to my kit. First, I thought my heals did cure exposes pre-patch? Maybe that was just coincidence, but I thought I saw them falling off.

    Yes, those skills did remove exposes pre-patch but what good is an expose-removing skill when the actual expose status paralyzed you into a hold status for 6 seconds in which you cannot use any skills at all. After the update, holds were removed from exposes, so medic kit users can now freely and instantly cure exposes off of themselves when it happens.
    Jaime wrote:
    but I'm not sure I like the idea of running in first.

    Yes this is exactly what I'm saying. As a medic kit tank, you should be the first to run in because technically, you have the most survivability out of your team due to the medic kit. It does wonders for your team if you know what you're doing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Surgery wrote:
    You feel like your heal is 'weaker' because of the way items now have a 30 second shared cool down. People are more hesitant to pop a hypo to full health because doing so at an unwise time could mean their death shortly after. So, PVPers tend to wait until the very last moment before using hypos now. Therefore, you, a healer, may find yourself having to do more work because everyone else is purposefully holding out on healing themselves with hypos.

    Yes, those skills did remove exposes pre-patch but what good is an expose-removing skill when the actual expose status paralyzed you into a hold status for 6 seconds in which you cannot use any skills at all. After the update, holds were removed from exposes, so medic kit users can now freely and instantly cure exposes off of themselves when it happens.

    Yes this is exactly what I'm saying. As a medic kit tank, you should be the first to run in because technically, you have the most survivability out of your team due to the medic kit. It does wonders for your team if you know what you're doing.

    Oh I see the connection there with healing vs. items. That should have clicked for me- I apologize. It wouldn't be so bad if Feds actually bailed out when they were low so they could recover their shields. Some of them just stand there dumbstruck.

    I never realized there was a connection between exposes and holds, so I'll be secretly thankful for that, haha.

    If Medics are the new PvP tank, what good are Engineers? Are they also PvP tanks? Maybe now more than ever a decent premade makeup is what it's going to take to win? I should just go back to my original Operative, haha.

    On a side note, I started playing my Orion today. The queues were pretty terrible so I went to the cluster. My first mission bugged out. I lol'd and went to class. I'll keep at it, though. I wish the queue menu wasn't such a mess.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Surgery wrote:
    You feel like your heal is 'weaker' because of the way items now have a 30 second shared cool down. People are more hesitant to pop a hypo to full health because doing so at an unwise time could mean their death shortly after. So, PVPers tend to wait until the very last moment before using hypos now. Therefore, you, a healer, may find yourself having to do more work because everyone else is purposefully holding out on healing themselves with hypos.



    I am still not entirely convinced this is the case. Something honestly feels out of whack about the whole damage thing. I don't know if crits are working different (I have one shot someone with a Pulse Rifle crit from behind in this new system) or if resists are wonky...but something definitely feels different when it comes to survivability, and it just isn't the hypo changes.

    My gut is telling me that resists are not working as they should, but it could easily be a slight change in the crit mechanic...which would also explain why damage feels higher to some people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Jaime wrote:
    Oh I see the connection there with healing vs. items. That should have clicked for me- I apologize. It wouldn't be so bad if Feds actually bailed out when they were low so they could recover their shields. Some of them just stand there dumbstruck.

    I never realized there was a connection between exposes and holds, so I'll be secretly thankful for that, haha.

    If Medics are the new PvP tank, what good are Engineers? Are they also PvP tanks? Maybe now more than ever a decent premade makeup is what it's going to take to win? I should just go back to my original Operative, haha.

    On a side note, I started playing my Orion today. The queues were pretty terrible so I went to the cluster. My first mission bugged out. I lol'd and went to class. I'll keep at it, though. I wish the queue menu wasn't such a mess.

    Engineers are still awesome tanks and if using the proper abilities, have a chance to expose those who fire on them. They also don't really have to sacrifice their offensive support in order to do their tanking (though turret damage is insane on the scoreboards). So both engy and science make good tanks, but science have the potential to last longer due to expose clears and nearly infinite health.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Thrishmal wrote: »
    (though turret damage is insane on the scoreboards).

    The only thing that eats through shields quicker than full auto sweep is a turret. They're scary.

    Which makes Shanty Town so much more engaging and fun.
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