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But i have done the most damage...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
...a sentence i can not hear anymore those days.

So here are a few thoughts from me, don't feel personally offended:

The goal in a PVP match should be the victory, NOT your personal damage high score. I've seen a lot of people that have no other things in mind then their personal damage, no matter what price they pay for that, i think. And also if we lost the match they are always talking like:

"...but i have done 600k damage, more then you all... blah, blah"

...but don't have a look in their stats and see that they died too often!

So, in my eyes if there are 2 player:

- player 1: 400000 damage / 8 deaths
- player 2: 250000 damage / 0 deaths

Player 2 is the much more skilled and better player. Every time you die it is a point for the enemy, so keep in mind that there is another goal next to the damage you deal: surviving. Try not to die!

If you have very high damage it can also mean you have played all the time against (a) very good healer(s). What counts is if you were able to kill him and get a point for your team! Think about it.

Another point that made me to write this thread:
The last 2 days i stayed teamed up with some people for some PVP matches. The most matches were simply a hunt for Feds and we've won a lot. So it began again that they started to talk in teamchat like "...look how much damage i made...", "...let's kill some feds...", blah blah. BUT THEN, there were some Feds playing organized, maybe on Ventrilo or whatever and you know what happened? My klingon teammates quitted. I couldn't believe that. It happened 2 times the last days... are you afraid of an enemy that shoots back??? Quitting an even running match is really... *don't have the right words for that*. Bah!

So that is only my experience the last days, maybe yours is completely different. Like i said, don't feel personally offended, but i think some people really should think about it. Less talking (like 6-year-olds), more teamplay.

(And all those experiences were made at Tier5 PVP, play both sides a lot.)
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    +1
    well put sir
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    As a Klingon I play capture and hold. I win a lot. I like distracting the other team. IF I have to keep running into the fedball to keep them from getting bored and actually caping bases I'll do it. I'll get 20 deaths FTW. And lets not forget about the quest to die 50 times.

    Otherwise well put. I've dealt with the same. I had to move to a better fleet that didn't whine like babies.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    baos wrote:
    As a Klingon I play capture and hold. I win a lot. I like distracting the other team.

    Great, great!
    baos wrote:
    IF I have to keep running into the fedball to keep them from getting bored and actually caping bases I'll do it. I'll get 20 deaths FTW.

    Ok, Capture and Hold is another strategy. I referred mainly to Arena PVP (5 vs 5). But, i also play a lot capture and hold and all i can add to my thread is that there are also more then enough of those BUT-I-HAVE-DONE-MORE-DAMAGE-THEN-YOU-ALL-guys after losing a match... totally ignoring what the real goal of the game is.
    baos wrote:
    And lets not forget about the quest to die 50 times.

    ...uff
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The only thing worse then someone bragging about how much damage they did is someone bragging about winning in the first place.

    Sometimes in pickup games the team you are put on sucks and the only things you can look forward to is getting as many kills as possible.

    Sometimes the team is good and you win, then the number of kills is less important.

    In the end its ones and zero's and win loss kill or die is about as important as the life of one army ant.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I would like to point out that if your friend that scored 400k damage and 8 deaths hadn't been killed 8 times then he probably would have killed the entire enemy team by himself. Think about it, thats 400k dps in between the time it took to fly back to combat 8 times (and most of the time combat is done by then). thats DAMN impressive.

    Escorts, Raptors, and Birds of Prey are not meant to take damage. They are meant to dish out as much as possible, otherwise they would be cruisers.

    a good team will pick out a target that either MUST die or WILL die under focus fire and hit that target alot more often than other targets, either for self preservation or points respectively.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    I would like to point out that if your friend that scored 400k damage and 8 deaths hadn't been killed 8 times then he probably would have killed the entire enemy team by himself. Think about it, thats 400k dps in between the time it took to fly back to combat 8 times (and most of the time combat is done by then). thats DAMN impressive.

    No... what i want to say is: NOT how much damage he made is important! It is important how much kills he made and how often he died! Also if he didn't die 8 times, a damage of 400k says nothing...

    What if you play against good healers, make 400k damage, but kill not ONE of them...? it's an extreme example, i know, but it should only show what i mean.

    What counts are kills/deaths! Not damage!

    And another example, maybe...

    - player1: 400000 damage / 5 kills / 0 deaths
    - player2: 200000 damage / 5 kills / 0 deaths

    ...player2 plays simply more effective? ;)
    faithborn wrote:
    Escorts, Raptors, and Birds of Prey are not meant to take damage. They are meant to dish out as much as possible, otherwise they would be cruisers.

    And thats why teamplay is important! And if there is no teamplay you should train your survivability because everytime you get destroyed, the enemy gets 1 point. And if you want to win a match (i'm sure you want) you should do your best that the enemy won't get this point! If you get no support against a good enemy, try to play with tactics. Do not run into the suicide, only in mind to deal as much damage as fast as you can, no matter for what price. Try to be so hard to kill as you can be...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    There are a lot more player on the Klingon side since Season one ...mostly not the good ones i would say from the last days of pvp experience with them. Makes me sad that many of the old klingons i leveled up with are now either gone or playing on the fed side so my friendlist is most of the time pretty empty and im more or less forced (if i want to get the daily done) to play with 50% no-clue-people and those "look how much damage i did you suckors" types. Ive tried to tell some of them the same you are posting here but ...well ,i did less damage then they did so i dont have a clue about pvp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    You might find that some of those Gods of so called pvp were ex feds who thought "if you can't beat them then join them"
    I've noticed some really good kling pvp'ers these last few days and not many bad ones I have to say, it's been about 50 / 50 with the "I'am god in zone chat"
    But you are wrong about it just being klings that quit when the going gets tough, I had 2 feds not rez (ground pvp) because the other 3 left when it wasn't just me and another kling to kill and they started to die.
    One fed even had the front to moan at another fed because he would rez after dieing and mess up their so called great score!!! which ofc was done when it was 5v2 to the feds
    It's pvp and trash talk always come out in the end....but I will say so far since I've been pvp'ing that time has not be very often
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    well i do decent damage, get decent kills and die sometimes. it is not rocket science and of course the map makes a difference. in CP in the opening salvo i can hit 130k damage and be responsible for the death of 2 or 3 federation players. team work helps of course, having a clue about pvp helps as well, but at that moment once you decloak damage is important. once that first fight is over the game can be won or lost right there. Some teams recover and do well, but that is in my experience rare, mostly it is a case of hunting them down and killing them until the moral goes and they hand you the match.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    i can relate to what u say (coming from a fed this is) but i dont agree.

    ill put it like this:

    my RA5 is an escort and is at most times around in third place for damage. somethimes i die alot somethimes i hardly die. i have very little to say about this. if i get multitargeted by the klingons because they know what i can do -> i die alot. if they remane oblivious to the big guns straped infront of my ship and attack my cruiser friends-> i survive with high damage done.

    in my cruiser (only commander 6, engineer but still) i do have a say in this. im almost always mid ranged on the damage but i hardly ever die, and very often top healing. why? because most of my skills are aimed towards that. keeping myself in the fight. and im prety good at that. staying alive while your enemys die around you and keep heals on your teammates gets them very frustrated.

    that said, if you go into fights on your own (even me with all my survivability moves) u will die. thats the only skill that comes to mind. just look for a group in your map and stay with your group. if cruiser hull repair and science shield repairs the group its succes for sure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Getting high score is nothing. FBP3, RSP2, FBP2, RSP1 and a few buffs and heals and you will do insane damage. Someone will almost always target you all the feedback is points becasuse it bypasses the sheilds. Plus the weapons you can fire automaticly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I'll quit a match people refuse to team on and do random stuff. I know it's unlikely anyone will text anything in a pug it's just the acknowledgement of others that matters. So "no team = me gone" otherwise I'd quite happily play no matter how things turn out. As long as I did my bit and did reasonably well I am happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    FXHell wrote:
    ...but i have done 600k damage, more then you all... blah, blah

    ...but don't have a look in their stats and see that they died too often!

    Actually most of the time the number one player in the damage charts is also the one with the most kills and least deaths.

    I can tell you from my own experience as damage dealer, when I die often I wont be first place in the damage score because I lose too much time respawning and comming back... so I would say your logic is flawed ;)

    The "but maybe he shot a target which was getting heals all the time and couldn't kill it and thats why his damage is so high !" argument is also flawed, since right now the damage chart shows only hull damage and the biggest part of healing is done through things like extend shields... so if he was blowing shields all the time he would get almost nothing except bleedthrough for his damage chart.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LnD-Rash wrote: »
    Actually most of the time the number one player in the damage charts is also the one with the most kills and least deaths.

    I can tell you from my own experience as damage dealer, when I die often I wont be first place in the damage score because I lose too much time respawning and comming back... so I would say your logic is flawed ;)

    Completely different from my experience...

    When matches are easy against a weak enemy and the match is more llike a hunt, your argument is correct. But against a good enemy and NO teamplay... i am talking about the BoP's getting no support from cruisers when needed, for example, i've seen a lot of cruisers making the most damage, but not the most kills. Just one example. Coult tell here a lot more, but too much to tell and don't know where to begin first... Finally i have made a complete different experience then you. (i play also damage dealer (and supporter/healer))
    LnD-Rash wrote: »
    The "but maybe he shot a target which was getting heals all the time and couldn't kill it and thats why his damage is so high !" argument is also flawed, since right now the damage chart shows only hull damage and the biggest part of healing is done through things like extend shields... so if he was blowing shields all the time he would get almost nothing except bleedthrough for his damage chart.

    Of course it shows only hull damage and my argument is correct, anyhow. Have a look at this example:
    Stingray10 wrote:
    Getting high score is nothing. FBP3, RSP2, FBP2, RSP1 and a few buffs and heals and you will do insane damage.

    And also if you play against cruisers, you know that they can restore Shields AND HULL ? Think of engineering team, (i restore more then 15000 hull with ENG team 3, miracle worker can also be helpfull) Count all the Bleedthrough, FBP, restored hull damage + surviving tactics and so on and you can make a lot of damage without beeing able to kill one.

    And i am absolutely sorry to put this example here cause i don't wanna be like those damage-bragging-guys, but i need it for you to realize what i am talking about: We made a PVP match and it was 5vs3. We were 3. And there i made more then 500k damage, and more then 300k healing. And you know what... we lost 15-0. And that was not the only match where my arguments exactly fits.

    So, i am sorry but pls, don't feel personally offended but i think all your arguments are flawed.

    And next to all that is the main information i wanted to give with my thread:

    i think it is more important to have less deaths then have most damage. Think some people getting it wrong what i wanted to say with my thread.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LnD-Rash wrote: »
    The "but maybe he shot a target which was getting heals all the time and couldn't kill it and thats why his damage is so high !" argument is also flawed, since right now the damage chart shows only hull damage and the biggest part of healing is done through things like extend shields... so if he was blowing shields all the time he would get almost nothing except bleedthrough for his damage chart.

    Hmm... i have to post this argument also:

    I think you should have seen that many times:

    A cruiser from your team got hard damaged from the enemy. So lets say he is down from around 40000 hull to 2000 hull but he used 2x engineering team before which restored together, lets say, 20k hull.

    So, we have 58000 damage for the enemy, but 0 kills!

    Then all the abilities are on Cooldown, he is near death, but then a teammate gives him extend shields and engineering team 3 (15k hull restore). The enemy shoots this 15k away again, but the could flew with evasive maneuvers from the battle.

    So we are at 73000 damage for the enemy, but 0 kills!

    You really should have seen this many times... cause that is basically teamplay, i see it in many matches. Think you know what i want to say. :) Right, damage says NOTHING here because the enemy didn't make the point.

    Also it IS possible to get high damage scores not only based on bleedthrough...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    FXHell wrote:
    Hmm... i have to post this argument also:

    I think you should have seen that many times:

    A cruiser from your team got hard damaged from the enemy. So lets say he is down from around 40000 hull to 2000 hull but he used 2x engineering team before which restored together, lets say, 20k hull.

    So, we have 58000 damage for the enemy, but 0 kills!

    Then all the abilities are on Cooldown, he is near death, but then a teammate gives him extend shields and engineering team 3 (15k hull restore). And he could flew with evasive maneuvers from the battle.

    So we are at 73000 damage for the enemy, but 0 kills!

    You really should have seen this many times... cause that is basically teamplay, i see it in many matches. Think you know what i want to say. :)

    at this point i'm going to say that you're theorycrafting a bit too much.

    LnD-Rash's arguements are valid through testing. yours are pure theory.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    at this point i'm going to say that you're theorycrafting a bit too much.

    LnD-Rash's arguements are valid through testing. yours are pure theory.

    LOL... this is the way i play nearly EVERY match i play. (every serious match, not those 5minute-hunts).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    at this point i'm going to say that you're theorycrafting a bit too much.

    LnD-Rash's arguements are valid through testing. yours are pure theory

    And tell me what's theocrafting in my example... this is how i've seen and made it hundred times... and you should also... i thought it is an example everyone have seen, and everyone knows what i mean. :eek:. Can't believe that you called it pure theory. It is the way i play, and friends of mine...

    edit: sry for double post
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    for one thing, if the damage contributed to a kill (just tagging them for about 1k or so damage) it gives them credit for a kill (big sign of theorycrafting right there). furthermore, by staying in the battle and getting healed and dealing damage, he is doing substantially more to affect the outcome of the battle than that player that leaves.

    additionally, there is no way to get 20k healing off an engineering team 3 except for stacking 4 sif consoles with max investment in the abilities that boost it. so right there is a big enough sign that while you "may or may not" have experienced it, your theorycrafting it together. You handcrafted a "special" scenario in which that high damage player failed completely.

    but how about this. If he knocked the target down to 2000 hull alone, despite doing a total of 73k damage, and your team FAILED TO KILL THE TARGET or even worse FAILED TO SUPPORT HIM then its not his fault... Its yours.

    furthermore, in order to receive 2 engineering teams in the time it takes for a high dps player to deal that much damage, he would have had to receive at least 1 other engineering team from a different player (because ssc means that 20 seconds hurts). This is an example of your team failing to support eachother and the other team supporting eachother.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    additionally, there is no way to get 20k healing off an engineering team 3 except for stacking 4 sif consoles with max investment in the abilities that boost it. so right there is a big enough sign that while you "may or may not" have experienced it, your theorycrafting it together. You handcrafted a "special" scenario in which that high damage player failed completely.

    I wrote he uses 2x engineering team. Pls. read more careful. And like i wrote... my eng team III restores over 15000 hull... my eng team I more then 9000, NOT MAXED OUT!!! so we are at more the 24k. Believe me, i know what i am talking about. So pls don't talk i may not have experienced it... LOL. And like i also wrote, this scenario happened many many times. I (or we) protected a teammate very often in exactly this scenario i wrote!!! The enemy didn't get him down!!! WE made, that HE failed. Many times, believe me or not, i can't change your opinion. :)
    faithborn wrote:
    but how about this. If he knocked the target down to 2000 hull alone, despite doing a total of 73k damage, and your team FAILED TO KILL THE TARGET or even worse FAILED TO SUPPORT HIM then its not his fault... Its yours.

    You are getting me wrong. In this scenario i am the one who protects the one which is near death with 2000 hull. And yes, the enemy, then totally FAILED, but what's the point. What do you want to say? It shows that teamplay is VERY VERY important.
    faithborn wrote:
    furthermore, in order to receive 2 engineering teams in the time it takes for a high dps player to deal that much damage, he would have had to receive at least 1 other engineering team from a different player (because ssc means that 20 seconds hurts). This is an example of your team failing to support eachother and the other team supporting eachother.

    There are many ways to protect yourself from a high dps player over a long duration. Believe me. Again, like i said, i've seen many high dps players doing a lot of damage but who were not able to get the kill bcause of good protection. And it really doesn't matter who gives the engineering teams, i could have written that i give the first, and another one gives the second. But thats NOT THE POINT. I hope you know what i mean. And again, in my example i am in the team that protects well... So the enemy-team failed... correct. But again, whats the points? Like i said, teamplay is important and damge means nothing. Kills is what counts!

    Against a good team that gives support each other you can deal a lot of damage without being able to kil somebody.

    edit: Also i have to say that this discussion leads into a completely wrong direction then i expected it because of "different experiences". It would be nice if we can go on discussing via PM. I can only repeat it: The main statement i want to give with my thread was:

    Less deaths are more important then high damage.
    !!!!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    FXHell wrote:
    I wrote he uses 2x Believe me, i know what i am talking about.

    appearantly you don't. I already showed you how your statement was wrong. all your doing is theorycrafting... and doing a poor job at it. replace all statements of your team with their team and vice versa. points still stand.


    last statement before I'm done with this thread. Once you reach a certain DPS your actual damage chart scores tend to go down because you're killing off the opponent before he can receive healing which would only serve to increase your damage scores. Think about that one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    appearantly you don't. I already showed you how your statement was wrong. all your doing is theorycrafting... and doing a poor job at it. replace all statements of your team with their team and vice versa. points still stand.

    :) LOL. Again. There is no theocrafting, these are examples very similar from many matches i played, absolutely no theocrafting... but if you don't believe it, it's ok. All further discussion would be like running against a wall.
    faithborn wrote:
    last statement before I'm done with this thread.

    Ok fine, bye.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    i have to agree with FXHell. i´ve made the same experience.
    im plaing mostly kling cruiser, suporting my team so im usually not the top dd
    but when i see the top dd died 6 times and i didn´t die a single time i think i did a better job than he did.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    FXHell wrote:
    i've seen a lot of cruisers making the most damage, but not the most kills. Just one example.

    If a Cruiser outdamages BoP's, Raptors or Escorts it only means those DD's failed... or it was an Capture and Hold map where the DD's where more bussy with claiming outposts while the Cruiser had RSP/FBP fun with some "next target and open fire" opponents in front of the Fed base, in which case the Cruiser did a great job making those opponents waste time.

    The high damage of the Cruiser then only works as a prove he was able to stay alive long enough to actually deal so much damage and in turn keeping all those opponents bussy. If he would just fly in, pop FBP and blow up his damage score at the end would be pathetic.

    I'am not saying its impossible to deal very high damage (like three or four times as much as the others) and suck at the same time, but its not very likely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    LnD-Rash wrote: »
    If a Cruiser outdamages BoP's, Raptors or Escorts it only means those DD's failed... or it was an Capture and Hold map where the DD's where more bussy with claiming outposts while the Cruiser had RSP/FBP fun with some "next target and open fire" opponents in front of the Fed base, in which case the Cruiser did a great job making those opponents waste time.

    The high damage of the Cruiser then only works as a prove he was able to stay alive long enough to actually deal so much damage and in turn keeping all those opponents bussy. If he would just fly in, pop FBP and blow up his damage score at the end would be pathetic.

    I'am not saying its impossible to deal very high damage (like three or four times as much as the others) and suck at the same time, but its not very likely.

    And all that comes down to what i said in my opening post and what this thread is about:

    only high damage says nothing - important is the kill / death ratio! How many times you died and how many times you killed someone. So People should not only hunt their next high damage record... they should also have an eye on their survivability.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    OP makes good points but let's go one further in arena play only one thing counts... Kills I don't care how much damage you do or how many times you die. 15 kills wins!

    That is not saying that I don't feel that I have done a better job when I don't die. But under the current arena rules if you are there for your team you do what is necessary to get to 15 first.
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