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There is no issue with Cloak/Battle Cloak...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
...the issue is with detecting cloaked ships.

*updated some minor changes based on feedback*

Current ways to detect cloaked ships (that come to mind):

Charged Particle Burst aka CPB (Sci BO ability)
- 5km Radius from "caster"

Sensor Scan (Sci Officer Ability)
- 3km Radius from target




My suggestion for fixing the issue:


CPB
- Remove the rather useless AoE shield damage effect. I know it's possible to do something like 3k shield damage to everyone's shields within 5km, but...
- Increase the radius to 12km. Maybe even make the range 7km on CPB 1, 10km CPB 2, and 12km CPB 3.

This will basically create a PvP specific BO Ability which will become extremely useful.

Sensor Scan
- Stop putting the player using Sensor Scan in to combat when the skill is activated
- Increase the radius of Sensor Scan to 7km
- Only apply the Damage Resistance Debuff to an enemy ship if they are directly targeted, and not apply it to all enemy ships within the radius

Though the two abilities will be somewhat similar now, the differences would be:

- Sensor Scan is a Player ability
- Sensor Scan can be cast on an Enemy, Ally, or Self, and has an AoE affect centered around the target
- Sensor Scan increases Stealth Detection and lowers Stealth strength, where as CPB will disable cloaking
- Sensor Scan applied a Damage Resistance Debuff to a single enemy target

That's my input on the matter of Cloak/Battle Cloak, and I think it's pretty good. I would obviously love to see it implemented as a test on Tribble to see how it plays out as I think it had potential.

Any thoughts or feedback from the rest of the community on this?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Gonna be honest, I didn't read it - Cloak is fine, from a tactical standpoint.

    Just wish FvK matches didn't drag out because of it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Aelife wrote:
    Gonna be honest, I didn't read it - Cloak is fine, from a tactical standpoint.

    Just wish FvK matches didn't drag out because of it.

    I agree, the cloak is fine. I've been on both sides and really enjoy fighting with it and against it.
    Its such a thrill to line up on an unsuspecting target then unleash a world of pain on them. On the other side, nothing gets you on the edge of your seat more than when you know that you could be ambushed any second by a cloaked ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Janko wrote:
    ...the issue is with detecting cloaked ships.

    Current ways to detect cloaked ships (that come to mind):

    Charged Particle Burst aka CPB (Sci BO ability)

    Sensor Scan (Sci Officer Ability)


    Both of these abilities only have a 5km range, and only allow the "caster" to see the cloaked ship(s).


    My suggestion for fixing the issue:


    CPB
    - Remove the rather useless AoE shield damage effect. I know it's possible to do something like 3k shield damage to everyone's shields within 5km, but...
    - Increase the range to 15km and reduce the cool down slightly. Maybe even make the range 10km on CPB 1 with current cool down, 10km with reduced cool down on CPB 2, and 15km with reduced cool down for CPB 3.

    This will basically create a PvP specific BO Ability which will become extremely useful.

    Sensor Scan
    - Stop putting the player using Sensor Scan in to combat when the skill is activated
    - Increase the range and decrease the cool down similar to how I described in CPB.

    Though the two abilities will be somewhat similar now, the differences will be:

    - Sensor Scan is a Player ability
    - Sensor Scan can be cast on an Enemy, Ally, or Self, and has an AoE affect centered around the target, allowing other players to see the cloaked ships, where as CPB only allows the "caster" to see cloaked ships.
    - Sensor Scan only increases Stealth Detection and lowers Stealth strength, where as CPB will not allow a player to use Battle Cloak.


    That's my input on the matter of Cloak/Battle Cloak, and I think it's pretty good. I would obviously love to see it implemented as a test on Tribble to see how it plays out as I think it had potential.

    Any thoughts or feedback from the rest of the community on this?
    I like this, very interesting changes making both abilities very useful against cloak. I am playing Klingon Full Time now. These changes would cause the use of cloak to be carefully thought out when flying around the board and or sitting around the node in firing range.

    Good Post, great ideas!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Janko wrote:
    Both of these abilities only have a 5km range, and only allow the "caster" to see the cloaked ship(s).


    My suggestion for fixing the issue:


    CPB
    - Remove the rather useless AoE shield damage effect. I know it's possible to do something like 3k shield damage to everyone's shields within 5km, but...
    - Increase the range to 15km and reduce the cool down slightly. Maybe even make the range 10km on CPB 1 with current cool down, 10km with reduced cool down on CPB 2, and 15km with reduced cool down for CPB 3.

    This will basically create a PvP specific BO Ability which will become extremely useful.

    Sensor Scan
    - Stop putting the player using Sensor Scan in to combat when the skill is activated
    - Increase the range and decrease the cool down similar to how I described in CPB.

    First, charged particle burst disables cloaks for x seconds (around 15-20), so everyone can see the enemy. Sensor scan also reduces stealth, your allies with enough stealth detection might see them too now.

    And keep the shield damage, this at least lets a handful more people keep that skill.

    If you mean range you mean radius or? because currently CBP has 10km range (5km radius, 360 degree around you). While I agree to an increase in range 15km seem to much (especially if you mean radius, that would cover a circle of 30km diameter, thats 3 nodes in cap and hold simultaneously if you sit between). 10km radius maximum. Maybe CPB I 7km, II 8,5km and III 10km. Keep the cooldowns as they are, 30secs are fine (the enemy has a window to enable cloak, but only a short one, but you can still spam them often enough)

    With sensor scan please consider the main effect is a pretty brutal debuff. It can go up to 80% with the right skills and consoles. This in a 10-15km radius? overpowered much I would say.


    But all in all I think even if they increased for example CBP ranges, the Klingons will simply sit x km farer away from you before they attack. I see it with my cruiser, where I sometimes switch a science BO with CBP I in, if the enemy waits way too long. I usually catch 1 or 2 in the very beginning by surprise, but after that they all sit in a safe spot and it's the same as usual.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Roter_Panda:

    I was talking about the radius.

    Now, after reviewing the skills in a bit more detail (and not when I was getting ready for bed), I would make the following changes (some based on your feedback).

    CPB:

    Radius change for CPB 1 to 8km, CPB 2 10km, CPB 3 12km.
    Yes I am aware this covers a 24km sphere around the "caster", however the idea is to be able to detect cloaked ships before they are in weapons range.


    Sensor Scan:

    Radius change for all ranks changed to 7km.
    I realized this morning that Sensor Scan also has a huge Damage Resistance debuff to enemy ships, so having a larger radius on this would be very over powered.

    The other option would be to literally limit the debuff to only be applied if an enemy ship is targeted and then Sensor Scan is used on that ship. Any enemy ships within the X km radius of the target would not have the Damage Debuff applied, only the stealth strength debuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Sensor scan is absolutely balanced ability now. Its both utility and dmg boosting ability on mediocre cooldown, allowing sci officers to fly in other ships and still do dmg comparable to other officers. The radius of the ability is actually sphere, so the coverage in 3D space is not that great.

    Beside, there is nothing wrong with cloak detection from sci captain / sci ship point of view.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    err....


    the whole "problem" with all your ideas is:


    All that serves the purpose to getting klinks you just have SEEN going into to cloak out of cloak again.



    From a tactical point of view it can be beneficial to bust a ship that tries to escape, but from a strategic point of view its a useless ability.


    The "point" of the cloak is not getting out of battle, its about getting into position (with your friends) to TRIBBLE the opposing force.

    And it excels at this task.
    Because unless THEY give you a hint ,you will never know that they are there, waiting, forming up and geting into position.



    ALL your suggestions are quite useless because they neglect THAT very thing.

    THAT is what makes cloak imba.


    There is NO way to even get a hint that something is awry - also they can basically shoot at you the moment they hit the uncloak button.





    A simple FIX would be:

    do not touch anything but power drain from the cloak. make it suck away all power but engines (so weaps shields and aux goes to 5, minimum)

    That way klinks can still get into ambush positions but cant uncloak and insta gib people or hit them with fully auxed sci abilities.

    Howeve,r upon deactivation klinks should get a temporary, very short powertransfer buff so it takes them only 2-3 seconds to get into battle status again.

    In return remove the token shield and hull point "disadvantage" (which isn't really doing anything to balance the cloak since tanking comes from skills, not from those few points missing in hull and shield. I can burn down a feds shields/hull just as fast as i melt a klinks shields so there is no factual, ingame disadvantage.)

    really, 2-3 seconds is all thats really needed.

    Unless you wanna go the extra mile and create whole new system that involves sensor blips, sensor ducks (shadows that aren't doing anything but fck with you basically...) and sensor pings.

    A whole set of thing crafted around the old game destroyer vs sub, because thats we are talking about, in a way.


    A class/power that simply gives you the initiative without having any form of serious disadvantage just is imbalanced as is clearly visible in ALL games that have such things.


    sensor scan is fine as it is.
    charged particle burst should be a single target "now kiss your shields goodbye, dood!" burst of shield reducing light.
    Photonic shockwave should be the equivalent hull remover.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    To the aboved poster. What you state as to what you would like to see is unrealistic. So basically what you want to see is for Klingon's to have no weapons, no shields, and no aux power for 2 seconds. Heres the problem with that. What you will have happen is just as now just mash the space bar, it will be replaced wth people sitting there mashing the tab key. Giving you a free shot at nothing but hull with your fully changed weapons.

    Your right, 2-3 seconds is all you need to wipe the floor with a Klingon ship in that state. That is too much of an "easy" button.

    If anything....anything, I would say instead of all the modifications to cloak, or settings, or skills...how about you just make it where once your cloaked ship crosses the 10km barrier it auto decloaks as assuming you are going to attack when you get within that range. Since weapons are weaker the further out you are, it will give you time to react.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    jfkgoodlos wrote:
    how about you just make it where once your cloaked ship crosses the 10km barrier it auto decloaks as assuming you are going to attack when you get within that range. Since weapons are weaker the further out you are, it will give you time to react.

    I'm guessing that would be a bit difficult to do because how would you differentiate between a target the cloaked ship is wanting to attack, and just some random enemy ship flying within 10km of the cloaked ship?


    As for claydermunch's post, what you're suggesting is basically to make Cloak work like Full Impulse on the power systems.
    As jfkgoodlos pointed out, that would leave Klingon ships extremely comprised. Not to say that there isn't potential in the idea, but the real tweaking would be how fast a cloaked ship's power levels returned to their settings.
    My thought would be that it would need to be a hard set power transfer that disregarded player level, class, ship type, and any EPS Flow consoles. Otherwise there would be ways to stack abilities in order to bring power levels back up so fast that it wouldn't really matter, and we'd be in the same pickle we're in now.

    You mention that there would be no disadvantage to my suggestions on the CPB changes, and that it would be unbalanced. Not sure if you thought of this, but by having a BO with CPB, you're losing a Sci BO ability that could do DPS/Heal/CC. The whole reason I made the numbers for CPB 3 to have the 12km radius was so players would have to choose between it, or VM/SNB.
    Giving up some (current amazing) crowd control abilities for one that gives your team a better chance at detecting a cloaked enemy team getting ready to attack you is a pretty fair trade off, at least in my opinion.
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