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FvF, escorts and game heading...

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I am generally concerned that with all these abilities people are complaining are OP. Players have been overlooking the most obvious, the DPS.

None of the OP abilities actually kills you, it's some escort most of the time dealing insane damage while your completely immobilized.

Now, I have seen escort do so much damage that even without immunities, they do enough damage to dismiss any kind of support. In fact, I can tell the ending of a salvage operation match just by how match 1 side has Escorts in use.

Now, for most this could turn in just another QQ thread. But I am seeing a bigger picture where more and more players are rolling escorts. When tweaked just right, they deal more DPS than the game intended. You'll have eventually more than 50% of the community playing escorts.

My concerns are this, well knowing their DPS will be tweaked down or at the very least, changed.... everyone who has rolled an escort will be quite displeased at that point. So my question is, what is Cryptic doing to rectify the situation? The more they wait, the more escorts around, and the more people will cry about it when they do tweak it.

*Cryptic never intended design a fully buff shield to go down with a ship explosion under 20 seconds. As they try to keep it as Star Trek as possible, that fast kill wouldn't stick true to it.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    ...dude...go fly your 1000 crew member space fighter ship, and zoom around going ratatatat tatatat.


    This game is lost when its comes to pvp....probably same with pve...anyways, any changes they make will not balance either faction when it comes to pvp. One side other the other, and one class will always remain OP. Until, they decide to change powers completely or give the other classes something similar in affect, "SCIENCE" will remain supreme.



    Subscription ended. Good luck w/ the large crewed star fighters.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    As science off with advanced escort I am surviving no fire at all.

    Most cruisers, even releasing the full DPS, will restore their shields and hull before I get close to destroying it. In return it doesnt take long until I am destroyed. I'd say a cruiser is best against escorts and often enough, after a 1on1, I definitely know: "dont try him 1on1, you have zero chance".
    Against escorts the game is over so quickly thats its no fun. I must admit that from time to time I do loose against escorts 1on1, and I have neither an idea why nor an idea how I could possibly improve my BO and weapon cofiguration to change that. The documentation of STO is just so horrible, especially due to English/German translations.
    The easiest for escorts seem to be science vessels. Their damage output is at the border of not insta destroying my escort, but their defences can be cut through in reasonable time. Still its very tough, but on the other side I didnt fight many science vessels 1on1, so I cannot back it 100% with detailed experiences.

    All in all, due to regular destruction within a few seconds, I sometimes wish I could respec for a cruiser or science vessel. Seriously, before I even recognize the BoP on the side the shield is already gone, in the next second I try to hit the escape button but I am already destroyed. This is no fun.

    My only possible tactic is sneaking behind my cruisers, staying on distance, and then flying in when the cruiser/science vessel is fighting and start attacking, desperately hoping none of these will notice me as escort and switching targets. Once I am target by 1 escort or 2 cruisers, I get destroyed before I can escape. Only against a cruiser and a science vessel I can escape if I stop fighting and instantly run.

    When I am left alone in a ball of enemy ships, noone targeting me and I can rampage freely through the enemies, then its fun. But not until 1 ship starts attacking me.

    I wanted to open another threat for requiest for help, but will just write it in here:
    Science admiral 5, advanced escort.
    3xDHC AP, 3xTurret AP, 1xQuantum Torpedo.
    2xEPS, 9900 Shield,
    3xAP +28/30 consoles, 1xCannon +22 console,
    Science1: Polarize Hull 1 (energy resistance, tractor protection), Jam Sensors 2 (invisible to 1 taget sensors),
    Science2: Science Team 1 (shield repair)
    Tech: Engineer team 1 (hull repair), Emergency power to Shields 2(shield regeneration, shield resistance)

    Tact1: Tactical team (Crew regeneration, resistance), Rapid fire 1 + 2, Omega 3,
    Tac2: Enhanced Torpedo 1 + 2 (2 and 3 torpedos at once), Beta (enemy resistance debuff)

    What consoles improve Subnucleoic?
    What skills do tactical or engineering admirals have which allow them to survive so much longer?
    How could I possibly enhance my weapon configuration (tetryon and disruptor seem to be doing worse than antiproton) that I cut through enemy hulls like a few of them do to me?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    ultime wrote: »
    are you joking? escort and dps... thats the onlythign we can freakign do, we die easy, and now, you want us to do less damage? nice joke

    ****ing noob... yoiu cry about reacieving too much damage when you have diseable/ immobilize? that the ****ign point, to kill you easier
    Well, I have now started flying an Escort, and find it a little ridicilous how quickly ships are destroyed and how little damage I take during that time. Even without any disabling abilities. In PVP, it gets more challenging, but still, combats are often too fast.

    But I am not sure that the DPS itself needs to be reduced.
    The problem is that the defenses are too weak. There needs to be some time to use different powers and have some abilities recharge and be used again. That's hardly the case at the moment.
    A ship basically has to be balanced around the product of DPS and Defense/Hitpoints. At the moment, this balance does not exist, since the defense doesn't grow proportionally as your DPS shrinks.
    Essentially X = DPS x SURVIVAL, where X is a constant.
    DPS is composed of aspects like:
    - Base weapon damage
    - Skill Bonus to damage
    - Hit Chance
    - BO skill bonus to damage over time
    - Maneuvrability (Chance to bring the best fire arc to bear)

    SURVIVAL is composed of aspects like:
    - Shield Rating
    - Shield Regeneration
    - Hull Rating
    - Hull Repair
    - Damage Resistance
    - Maneuverability (Chance to bring a different shield facing to bear)
    - Repair/Heal/Defense BO skills

    Repair and Maneuverability rates are highly affected by the actual length of combat. The shorter combat is, the more valuable will maneuverability and the burst damage become, the longer combat is, the more valuable BO skills and Repair rates become.


    But it seems they are working on the issue, according to a Tribble post so I am optimistic.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Qhaikron wrote: »
    As science off with advanced escort I am surviving no fire at all.

    Most cruisers, even releasing the full DPS, will restore their shields and hull before I get close to destroying it. In return it doesnt take long until I am destroyed. I'd say a cruiser is best against escorts and often enough, after a 1on1, I definitely know: "dont try him 1on1, you have zero chance".
    Against escorts the game is over so quickly thats its no fun. I must admit that from time to time I do loose against escorts 1on1, and I have neither an idea why nor an idea how I could possibly improve my BO and weapon cofiguration to change that. The documentation of STO is just so horrible, especially due to English/German translations.
    The easiest for escorts seem to be science vessels. Their damage output is at the border of not insta destroying my escort, but their defences can be cut through in reasonable time. Still its very tough, but on the other side I didnt fight many science vessels 1on1, so I cannot back it 100% with detailed experiences.

    All in all, due to regular destruction within a few seconds, I sometimes wish I could respec for a cruiser or science vessel. Seriously, before I even recognize the BoP on the side the shield is already gone, in the next second I try to hit the escape button but I am already destroyed. This is no fun.

    My only possible tactic is sneaking behind my cruisers, staying on distance, and then flying in when the cruiser/science vessel is fighting and start attacking, desperately hoping none of these will notice me as escort and switching targets. Once I am target by 1 escort or 2 cruisers, I get destroyed before I can escape. Only against a cruiser and a science vessel I can escape if I stop fighting and instantly run.

    When I am left alone in a ball of enemy ships, noone targeting me and I can rampage freely through the enemies, then its fun. But not until 1 ship starts attacking me.

    I wanted to open another threat for requiest for help, but will just write it in here:
    Science admiral 5, advanced escort.
    3xDHC AP, 3xTurret AP, 1xQuantum Torpedo.
    2xEPS, 9900 Shield,
    3xAP +28/30 consoles, 1xCannon +22 console,
    Science1: Polarize Hull 1 (energy resistance, tractor protection), Jam Sensors 2 (invisible to 1 taget sensors),
    Science2: Science Team 1 (shield repair)
    Tech: Engineer team 1 (hull repair), Emergency power to Shields 2(shield regeneration, shield resistance)

    Tact1: Tactical team (Crew regeneration, resistance), Rapid fire 1 + 2, Omega 3,
    Tac2: Enhanced Torpedo 1 + 2 (2 and 3 torpedos at once), Beta (enemy resistance debuff)

    What consoles improve Subnucleoic?
    What skills do tactical or engineering admirals have which allow them to survive so much longer?
    How could I possibly enhance my weapon configuration (tetryon and disruptor seem to be doing worse than antiproton) that I cut through enemy hulls like a few of them do to me?

    A few, minor, points.

    1. You're a science officer, in an escort. You will do less damage in a ship not meant to survive, while playing the class with native support abilites. Why in the hell would you do this? What was the point of being a science officer?

    2. You CAN "respec" into another ship. Or buy one and fly around in it. No clue what you're talking about.

    3. Try a science ship, with two higher rank science consoles, while being a science officer. Try playing science as science, and see what you think.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Science captain in escort works fine :o. It will be even more sweet after the change to SNB from tribble hits life. Actually any combination of ship class/captain class works pretty good.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Everyone does too much damage these days, not just escorts/Klingons. Escorts also need more survivability, even before season 1, but especially now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Foxrocks wrote:
    Everyone does too much damage these days, not just escorts/Klingons. Escorts also need more survivability, even before season 1, but especially now.

    I would argue that cruisers need survivability even more than escorts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I am curious what this change will mean to the speed at which shields go down. It might address your issues...but of course, would also mean that powers like RSP would have to be nerfed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Cannon damage is out of control right now.

    - Tone down cannon damage
    - Fix mask energy signature
    - Fix VM/SNB Spam combo
    - Fix Science team to actually remove VM like its suppose to.
    - Fix Stacking abilities like RSP

    and bam 70% of pvp's problems are gone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I am curious what this change will mean to the speed at which shields go down. It might address your issues...but of course, would also mean that powers like RSP would have to be nerfed.

    if anything it would cause rsp to be used less (I only use two copies and only then when i'm getting absolutely hammered on by 3+ good players or 1+ exceptionals). Won't affect drain disabling though except by making it more powerful.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    whast wrogn with cannon damage?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Insane DPS is the biggest gamebreaker right now, that's absolutely true.

    Feedback Pulse and Reverse Shield Polarity are only as stupidly powerful as they are because being more or less immune to damage for 15 seconds is a big deal in a game where you can die in 5.

    Healing is meaningless, it can't possibly keep up with the damage even just one person deals. Even extend shields doesn't heal through the DPS an escort can put out, it just mitigates it somewhat.

    The only thing that's currently good about science ships is all the jamming abilities. Your heals and your aux-offensives are garbage. Heals are meaningless and the aux offensives are an absolute joke, they will deal half as much damage over their entire duration as an escort will deal to you in a single second.

    When you're a tactical officer and you stack all your vectors etc. you can pop someone with a Tricobalt torpedo that does 30000+ damage in a single hit. Yes, with that much damage it will simply destroy the shield it hits even if its at full in a cruiser and oblitterate half your hull. No, you can't shoot it down when it gets fired at you from under 1km.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    First it was give us FvF klinks are OP. Now escorts are OP. Perhaps they should implement cruiser v cruiser FvF.

    There is not excessive dps in game work together and support each other. Play to your own strengths. Some science officer in an escort can't hang? Perhaps non standard combinations are not the best choice for that individual
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The only fights I have seen over in 5-10 secs. is escort against escort. Being a Tac. escort captain I think escorts are very well balanced. Against cruisers I can usually get there shields down quick and send a HY3 of quantums at them to do some pretty good damage but then they heal up and it takes for freaking ever to kill one. Jam targeting sensors is my friend there. Against a descent science ship, forget it. I usually can't get through there shields fast enough. Escort on escort is usually over very quick. Without support from my team I wouldn't live long enough to do any amount of damage.

    Several times I have seen cruisers at the top of the damage charts so they must be OP'd too?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    faithborn wrote:
    if anything it would cause rsp to be used less (I only use two copies and only then when i'm getting absolutely hammered on by 3+ good players or 1+ exceptionals). Won't affect drain disabling though except by making it more powerful.

    and to use rsp you have to be quick sometimes, blink and you go boom:cool:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    i tell you about the balance of power:

    in PvP game, we had 5 Klingons in our team, we agreed to focus fire on 1 Science cruiser, the healer of the Fed group, all BG 5, on my mark we unleashed hell on him. Guess what happend ? Nothing, silch, nada. he just flew around getting NO DAMAGE at all ! his shields didn't even drop 10%. 5 players shooting all they had on 1 ship..... is this normal ? no, that ship should have died in seconds.... talk about balance and power, this game is going the wrong direction. Sure, RSP, but 3 of them had cannons.....so where was the damage inflicted ??
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    RSP works against all energy weapons since it is slightly less stupid than feedback pulse which only works against the weapons that are less overpowered to begin with.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Bungle wrote:
    The only fights I have seen over in 5-10 secs. is escort against escort. Being a Tac. escort captain I think escorts are very well balanced.

    Well, go figure, who didn't see that coming?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    vontrox wrote: »
    i tell you about the balance of power:

    in PvP game, we had 5 Klingons in our team, we agreed to focus fire on 1 Science cruiser, the healer of the Fed group, all BG 5, on my mark we unleashed hell on him. Guess what happend ? Nothing, silch, nada. he just flew around getting NO DAMAGE at all ! his shields didn't even drop 10%. 5 players shooting all they had on 1 ship..... is this normal ? no, that ship should have died in seconds.... talk about balance and power, this game is going the wrong direction. Sure, RSP, but 3 of them had cannons.....so where was the damage inflicted ??

    That is unlikely story. If your DPS was anything but decent, the bleedthrough alone would have been inflicting some serious damage to the hull.

    I have seen many times ships die just from bleedthroughs. Strange your story mentions nothing about the hull.

    It is possible he was also using hazard emitters, but regardless, shields can be disable too. I'm afraid your DPS ain't spec right. I seen a single BoP take down 1 side of a science vessel shields under 10 seconds. So you guys must be doing something wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Is it me....or are quite a few people missing the class of the ship and it's meaning ?!!!??!?

    "Escort" -- Meaning - you are not SUPPOSED to be out trolling on your own. You are to "escort" another ship! You know.... LIke a cruiser. See.....I **LOVE** the escorts who want to hover around me (a cruiser captain). So much - that if I get the chance - will throw Ext. Shields or EPS Transfer to them, just so they WANT to be near me.

    When an **ESCORT** is staying near me, (s)he usually will tear into whatever ship I just dropped the shields on. And they do a great job of tearing hulls apart. Which means....that ship is no longer shooting at ME !! You know, I kinda like that little fact about escorts.....

    Will let the sci ship drivers speak up about what they think - but kinda like having the little guys around!!
    :D

    Just a thought...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    To be honest, I think the main problem is that this game asks for too much out of PuGs (Like most games). Most of the time, when I'm in a PuG PvP match, players don't support each other. Cruisers and Science Vessels don't toss any of their utility while DPSing. Escorts don't pick up any science or engineering abilities which help their team. It's either that or you just get paired up with a terrible composition of ships/captains. All tactical captains in escorts doesn't work very well against a balanced team. When faced with these types of situations, I get frustrated and think of ways certain abilities should be nerfed.

    On the other hand, every time I queue with my friends or I get paired up with competent people, we dismantle teams who do not have good teamwork and duke it out with teams who do. Whenever I do group PvP with people I know, it's a blast competing against other competent players. Sure, some things are a little OP, but it doesn't feel anywhere close to as bad when you have people covering your back.

    That said, I agree. Damage and survivability need to be balanced to make it a easier to survive and give that support time to arrive.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    RStoney wrote: »
    Is it me....or are quite a few people missing the class of the ship and it's meaning ?!!!??!?

    "Escort" -- Meaning - you are not SUPPOSED to be out trolling on your own. You are to "escort" another ship! You know.... LIke a cruiser. See.....I **LOVE** the escorts who want to hover around me (a cruiser captain). So much - that if I get the chance - will throw Ext. Shields or EPS Transfer to them, just so they WANT to be near me.

    When an **ESCORT** is staying near me, (s)he usually will tear into whatever ship I just dropped the shields on. And they do a great job of tearing hulls apart. Which means....that ship is no longer shooting at ME !! You know, I kinda like that little fact about escorts.....

    Will let the sci ship drivers speak up about what they think - but kinda like having the little guys around!!
    :D

    Just a thought...

    I totally agree I wish more escorts actually escorted a little more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Just a thought. I know many people question the need to bring cruisers into combat, and other people want team work to feel more of a must, so what if cruisers had the passive ability out of combat to mask energy signatures of smaller ships in a .5-1km radius such as escorts. That would give the escorts a reason to stay with the cruisers, and would make the cruisers less of a prey item since you can't really be sure who the cruisers are hiding until you are right on top of them. You know, in visual range where a sensor scan could pick up a cloaked ship?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    With regard to DPS:EHP scaling, check out this thread on overhauling space weapons. At the moment, cannons are the most preferred weapons in the game, which makes cannon-bearing ship types the most preferred ships as well.

    My proposal is to add more fundamental differences to weapon types and energy types. Rather than nerf any particular weapon type or energy type, make them equally useful in different ways, with different drawbacks.

    All feedback appreciated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    RStoney wrote: »
    Is it me....or are quite a few people missing the class of the ship and it's meaning ?!!!??!?

    "Escort" -- Meaning - you are not SUPPOSED to be out trolling on your own. You are to "escort" another ship! You know.... LIke a cruiser. See.....I **LOVE** the escorts who want to hover around me (a cruiser captain). So much - that if I get the chance - will throw Ext. Shields or EPS Transfer to them, just so they WANT to be near me.

    When an **ESCORT** is staying near me, (s)he usually will tear into whatever ship I just dropped the shields on. And they do a great job of tearing hulls apart. Which means....that ship is no longer shooting at ME !! You know, I kinda like that little fact about escorts.....

    Will let the sci ship drivers speak up about what they think - but kinda like having the little guys around!!
    :D

    Just a thought...

    I could use more cruisers like you about!

    9 of 10 times, I stick close to the cruisers and sci in the hopes that they will be sensible enough to know the klingons go for me first and am greatly disappointed.

    In FVF I actually get more of the buffs and bonuses I need than in FvK, I guess the big ship drivers know too damn well they wont be getting pounced if I'm about, and can't be bothered with my fate when they mistake that as an opportunity to strike.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    TL;DR: Rapid Fire is broken. It increases damage output radically more than any defensive ability (except for RSP) increases mitigation / healing, and it has a tiny cooldown by comparison to any of them. Two copies of Rapid Fire, which any competent Escort will have, grants 75% uptime on the most powerful offensive cooldown in the game. That's just not balanced, and will not be balanced unless the cooldown is radically increased or the relative damage increase is reduced.

    Rapid Fire is an egregiously overpowered ability under the new DHC system.

    My Cruiser can defeat a properly played and equipped Escort only if the following conditions are true:

    1. I have both of my RSPs ready.

    2. I have at least one copy of Engineering Team and Hazard Emitters ready (as my hull will take 30-50% damage from bleedthrough alone)

    3. I react fast enough to the initial burst to drop (1) and (2) before blowing up, which means inside of about 2 seconds.

    The first RSP basically counters the first Rapid Fire (and whatever other offensive cooldowns he uses with it). The second RSP counters the second Rapid Fire. If I don't destroy him before the first RF is available again, I die. Even with EP:S3, RSF, HE, AND ET3 running, I STILL can't tank DHC Rapid Fire damage for more than two or three seconds. The only thing that keeps me alive is RSP.

    RSP and Rapid Fire both need a huge nerf.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The only thing RF really needs to have looked at? How it interacts with other buffing skills and debuffing skills.

    I can still carve through an unsuspecting target's shields in seconds without RF running, if I run a mix of several other abilities. Tac Team, APA, APB, all contribute strongly to that first volley. And you can bet there's a HY torp coming in right about the same time that volley clears your shields, which can make a late RSP pointless.

    Dont think Escorts are a one-trick-pony. RF is only one of 4 or 5 buffs and debuffs a Tac Escort Admrial will bring to bear on you as often as they can. At least one of them needs to have a more aggressive diminishing return or cap applied to it, and RF isnt it.
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