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weapons malfunction needs nerf

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
This skill makes people not want to even respawn to fight. It is bad enough when you get in a ground pvp match and are outnumbered 5-2, but when the other team keeps your weapons malfunctioned the whole time it is completely unbalanced.

At least make the engineer who used the skill have their weapon disabled for equal time - that would not be a huge nerf as they still have turrets, pets, and melee.

I play an engineer and I dont use this skill anymore myself because it is just to unfair to the person you use it on - they dont get to have much fun if they cannot shoot.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Welcome to Crowd Control Online.

    Seriously, nerfing Weapon Malfunction won't help. It is just one of many holds that make ground pvp an exercise in virtual torture. Wait until you get a Bat'leth to the face that turns you into a quivering rag-doll for 25 secs unable to defend yourself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    use an energy cell to remove the debuff/cc "weapon malfunction" if u get hit with it again, perhaps its time to run, or just stay dead till teams even out.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    McSneaky wrote:
    At least make the engineer who used the skill have their weapon disabled for equal time - that would not be a huge nerf as they still have turrets, pets, and melee.

    They have ONE pet. Turrets and WM are generally not part of the same kit (at tier 5, not sure about lower tiers, but I'm reasonably sure it's the case there too).

    With the addition of power cells doing their thing, I think WM is fine as it is. Yeah, you use one and you can't use a hypo to get rid of a hold, but as Drucard (and others everywhere in the forums) pointed out, the whole system is chock full of holds and stuff.

    Also, if you are outnumbered 5-2, I agree with Rook: stay dead until you get allies, or the other guys agree to 4 or 3v2 you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Rook0024 wrote:
    use an energy cell to remove the debuff/cc "weapon malfunction" if u get hit with it again, perhaps its time to run, or just stay dead till teams even out.

    This would be valid if the energy cell didn't start a 15 sec global cooldown on all stims. The op is right thou, WM need to be brough in line with other abilities either lower duration (prolly best option) or increase cooldown.

    15 sec cooldown and 15 sec duration is unbalanced compared to every other ability in the game, mind this comming from a engineer player.

    But WM is secondary to melee rifle butt hold and stuns, those are the primary problems ground pvp having atm, along with a bunch of stun phaser guns and turrets that hold on every hit not the projected 5% chance.

    you notice it especially good when 5 people all run around with 5 stun phasers and all change to their sniper rifles when the expose hold. while the hold not nessesarily create unbalance (since everyone can do it) it create pretty boring matches.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Weapon malfunction only affects one player at a time. Absolutely it sucks when you're hopelessly outnumbered, but seriously, if you are hopelessly outnumbered, it sure isn't WMs fault.

    You want to fix it, there are engineering kits that can fix it, the power cells (yes the cooldown needs adjusted), or you can get a batleth as melee weapons are immune to weapon malfunction. I could go along with a longer immunity timer from WM, but beyond that, it really is far from the worst power you face.

    But again, in the given scenario, weapon malfunction isn't the problem, its that you are outnumbered.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    McSneaky is a really good PvPer and one of the best Klingon Engineers in the game, but I disagree with his analysis of weapons malfunction. There are some points not being considered in this discussion.

    Weapons Malfunction duration is a direct result of skill. The base time of application is 9 seconds, with a cool down of 15 seconds. In order to achieve 15 full seconds of application, an engineer must have 9 in modification training (900 skill points), 9 in technician (1800 skill points), and 9 in firearms engineering (3600 skill points) in order to get the full duration out weapon malfunction. Short of spending 6300 skill points the maximum duration of weapons malfunction cannot be achieved. There are only 60,700 skill points for every character in the game, so spending 6300 points on a single ground skill accounts for 9.6% of the total character.

    It is unreasonable to nerf a skill because the best users of that skill have invested so many skill points into its use. Why? Consider the numerous downsides already built into this skill.

    Weapons malfunction is the only character ability in the entire game that can be cured with an item. The cool down for the items is the same as the cool down for the skill, so there is no advantage. Weapons malfunction puts a resistance to itself when applied, meaning if weapons malfunction is used against a target with weapons malfunction, the base time is 3 seconds. Even if someone has spent the full 6300 on the skill, against resist weapons malfunction will apply a maximum of 5 seconds.

    As I have said from the beginning, the real problem is not weapons malfunction, the real problem is equipment diagnostics. The cool down for equipment diagnostics is much longer than weapons malfunction, and the result in game play is that no one cures other players of weapons malfunction because engineers with equipment diagnostics save that ability to use for themselves just in case - as using it exposes themselves to weapons malfunction.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    The only thing overpowered about Weapons Malfunction is that the animation is really easy to miss in combat. The debuff is easy to remove, doesn't stop defensive actions or movement, and doesn't stop you from spamming melee attacks.

    But items don't always disappear from your hands right away, and the sparks are easy to miss amid all the other special effects popping off. On top of that, weapons don't always show up in your hands, and don't always have proper special effects when they fire. Weapon Malfunction is so effective because most players don't notice it until they notice their enemy's shields not dropping.

    If Weapon Malfunction popped up a progress bar showing how long it had left the way that holds do, I bet people would be a lot quicker with the power cells.

    I know power cells put hypos and shield charges on cooldown, but that shouldn't be that big a problem because you really ought to be behind cover for about 50% of the fight anyway. Just play defensively until the cooldown is gone if you're that worried about it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Wm is fine as is and is the only real counter to a tactical ground build in pvp where most tactical ground build can 2 to 3 shot people. And you can remove it via energy cells
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Melee

    It works
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    Weapons Malfunction duration is a direct result of skill. The base time of application is 9 seconds, with a cool down of 15 seconds. In order to achieve 15 full seconds of application, an engineer must have 9 in modification training (900 skill points), 9 in technician (1800 skill points), and 9 in firearms engineering (3600 skill points) in order to get the full duration out weapon malfunction. Short of spending 6300 skill points the maximum duration of weapons malfunction cannot be achieved.

    The description on the kit is not accurate. Hover over the skill in your power tray to see the in-game duration. Fully spec'd, my weapons malfunction lasts 22 seconds and has 10 second recharge, see here:

    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4505783106_f2d0a5ef43_o.jpg
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/49235544@N08/4505783106/sizes/o/
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Last night I randomly made a video of me dueling with weapons malfunction, before I was defeated:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0LGxDZ0JQ
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    Melee

    It works

    Last night I played a game with extensive weapons malfunction, and switched to my Bat'Leth:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg

    So my point is, please don't nerf Weapons Malfunction...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    Last night I played a game with extensive weapons malfunction, and switched to my Bat'Leth:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg

    So my point is, please don't nerf Weapons Malfunction...


    Yes, why didnt your hypo work? This happens Often.

    Whats even more fun.. is when I (sci) desperately need a heal and hit the button and it heals a team member who may or may not actually need a heal at that time.. very random. If I'm alone, its less of an issue, tho still, even when targeting an enemy, it rarely heals me- meaning the button doesnt respond at all- - I have to make sure to target myself- even alone with an enemy- to make sure the thing heals me.. triage or tricorder.. or whatever.

    Sometimes, I will blame lag for a shield or hypo to not work.. but sometimes, it will do its cooldown and I receive no benefit from the device.

    AND.. when I find an opposing player with an exploit on him/her, I'll switch to my gun (mostly use a bat'leth) and hit the "exploit" shot.. and... wait for it.. nothing happens.. even tho the exploit shot has suddenly decided to cool down.. WITHOUT firing.


    Annoying.

    Since the last big patch, ground pvp has become frustrating.. even more so.. than it was before. 2-shot kills, without exploits, got old after the first time it happened... yet every night, theres at least 1.. usually 2 players in the enemy group who do this..

    OH.. and when I say something about it, I get accused of being a heal-cheater... because it is USUALLY difficult to kill me.. 1v1. Not so any more. /weep
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    Last night I played a game with extensive weapons malfunction, and switched to my Bat'Leth:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg

    So my point is, please don't nerf Weapons Malfunction...

    Cool Video Meow.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Bheduwa wrote:
    Yes, why didnt your hypo work? This happens Often.

    Whats even more fun.. is when I (sci) desperately need a heal and hit the button and it heals a team member who may or may not actually need a heal at that time.. very random. If I'm alone, its less of an issue, tho still, even when targeting an enemy, it rarely heals me- meaning the button doesnt respond at all- - I have to make sure to target myself- even alone with an enemy- to make sure the thing heals me.. triage or tricorder.. or whatever.

    Sometimes, I will blame lag for a shield or hypo to not work.. but sometimes, it will do its cooldown and I receive no benefit from the device.

    AND.. when I find an opposing player with an exploit on him/her, I'll switch to my gun (mostly use a bat'leth) and hit the "exploit" shot.. and... wait for it.. nothing happens.. even tho the exploit shot has suddenly decided to cool down.. WITHOUT firing.


    You can change this in the options. It's the one about auto assist target, or something like that. Turn that off, your worries will go away. Because as it is now, things automatically go to your target's target. Change that option, and you can be all selfish, all the time.

    Also, make sure the player with an exploit on him/her isn't a tactical first. They have that fake expose power, so make sure the power itself is flashing.

    Also also, there is an issue (maybe not an issue, maybe working as intended) where, if you fire an expose, like a split beam shot, and get knocked back right as you're firing, it cools down with no discernible effect.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    weapons malfunction is merely an inconvenience for me. As a full specced science officer with medic kit i am practically immune to being exposes and i dare 203 people to try and kill me without an expose.
    I like this new "expose doesn't hold" mechanic because it makes me almost invincible

    Btw, you do know that other engineers can removes WM i assume?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    That and they Power Cells removes Weapon Malfunctions as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Dekkameron wrote: »
    Btw, you do know that other engineers can removes WM i assume?

    For those who don't know, the skill is called "Equipment Diagnostics III" and the description says:

    "Cure Mechanical Debuffs and Buff Resistance
    Removes up to 4 mechanical debuffs
    +10% All Damage resistance for 24 seconds
    Reduces Damage to Shields by 10% for 24 seconds"

    Picture: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4505783106_f2d0a5ef43_o.jpg

    Although the kit says the buff lasts for 16 seconds, in actuality with the skill fully spec'd it lasts for 24 seconds (look on the lower right of the image).

    Now, personally I think this skill is a little ridiculous. How could someone possibly have 4 mechanical debuffs? Does Weapons Malfunctinon stack?

    Remember, you can only use this skill ONCE every 24 seconds. The buff lasts for 24 seconds, and the recharge is 24 seconds. But if you have it buffed and the 24 seconds is counting down, you are STILL susceptible to weapons malfunction.

    So, take this scenario: I use ED3 on myself, run for a few seconds, then get zapped with Weapons Malfunction. I CAN'T fix myself because the timer is already counting from when I buffed earlier, and my weapons STILL don't work even though I am buffed! So what is the point of removing "4 mechanical debuffs"? You can see this happening over and over to me in my video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg

    So as the skill works now, I should have waited until I got hit with Weapons Malfunction before using ED3 on myself. But if I sacrificed the expensive skill points to buff ED3, the countdown should not still be 24 seconds; if anything it should be lowered (to, say, 15 or 10 seconds) since I sacrificed so many end-game points.

    Also note that EQ3 does NOT fix the Borg assimilation effect during The Cure STF (the green glow you get), thus science officers can't heal me when assimilated. Shouldn't that be changed? You can't seriously make me believe a Borg proc is not considered a mechnical debuff?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    It shouldn't affect the weapon that is currently NOT in your hands but is equipped in your secondary.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    For those who don't know, the skill is called "Equipment Diagnostics III" and the description says:

    "Cure Mechanical Debuffs and Buff Resistance
    Removes up to 4 mechanical debuffs
    +10% All Damage resistance for 24 seconds
    Reduces Damage to Shields by 10% for 24 seconds"

    Picture: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4505783106_f2d0a5ef43_o.jpg

    Although the kit says the buff lasts for 16 seconds, in actuality with the skill fully spec'd it lasts for 24 seconds (look on the lower right of the image).

    Now, personally I think this skill is a little ridiculous. How could someone possibly have 4 mechanical debuffs? Does Weapons Malfunctinon stack?

    Remember, you can only use this skill ONCE every 24 seconds. The buff lasts for 24 seconds, and the recharge is 24 seconds. But if you have it buffed and the 24 seconds is counting down, you are STILL susceptible to weapons malfunction.

    So, take this scenario: I use ED3 on myself, run for a few seconds, then get zapped with Weapons Malfunction. I CAN'T fix myself because the timer is already counting from when I buffed earlier, and my weapons STILL don't work even though I am buffed! So what is the point of removing "4 mechanical debuffs"? You can see this happening over and over to me in my video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoVLJIyHCSg

    So as the skill works now, I should have waited until I got hit with Weapons Malfunction before using ED3 on myself. But if I sacrificed the expensive skill points to buff ED3, the countdown should not still be 24 seconds; if anything it should be lowered (to, say, 15 or 10 seconds) since I sacrificed so many end-game points.

    Also note that EQ3 does NOT fix the Borg assimilation effect during The Cure STF (the green glow you get), thus science officers can't heal me when assimilated. Shouldn't that be changed? You can't seriously make me believe a Borg proc is not considered a mechnical debuff?

    So wait ... what you're saying is ... to counter the ground combat move (weapons malfunction) that people may spend a ton of skill points on to get to work frequently and for a long duration ... they might need to in turn spend a ton of skill points to get the right proper counter to also use quickly and last for a long time?

    I'm stunned by the logic being presented in such a reasonable fashion.

    Am I really on the internet? Or this the holodeck with a fake internet?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    superchum wrote: »
    So wait ... what you're saying is ... to counter the ground combat move (weapons malfunction) that people may spend a ton of skill points on to get to work frequently and for a long duration ... they might need to in turn spend a ton of skill points to get the right proper counter to also use quickly and last for a long time?

    I'm stunned by the logic being presented in such a reasonable fashion.

    Am I really on the internet? Or this the holodeck with a fake internet?


    I believe the issue raised is the fact that ED only removes WM, it doesn't prevent it for the duration, which it ought to. There isn't much of a point to ED when the power is an instant counter yet has a longer cooldown than the power it counters (yes it does more than that, but still, why shouldn't it prevent WM for the duration as a single target buff?).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Foxrocks wrote:
    I believe the issue raised is the fact that ED only removes WM, it doesn't prevent it for the duration, which it ought to. There isn't much of a point to ED when the power is an instant counter yet has a longer cooldown than the power it counters (yes it does more than that, but still, why shouldn't it prevent WM for the duration as a single target buff?).

    Actually from the skill's description it doesn't read that it should prevent wm "over time", but just removes up to 4 debuffs at the very moment of skill usage.(There are several scientist kit buffs that have similar multiple debuff removals on use)
    The buff and its duration is just a bonus that this skill has, to avoid making it too much of a specific ability, which would otherwise have no use when not confronted with another engineer as an opponent.

    Comments about ED "not being much of a point" because of it's cooldown being longer than the ability it counters(WM), are kind of ironic, when you consider that any non engineer's only counter to wm(cells, which will instantly be called out from engineers as the ultimate solution to the WM problem, whenever there is any discussion about wm and its rediculous balance of duration and cooldown) has an even higher cooldown and in addition is coupled with hypo/charge cd.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Goukes wrote: »
    (There are several scientist kit buffs that have similar multiple debuff removals on use)

    I believe Equipment Diagnostics III is supposed to mirror the science skill "Biofilter Sweep III". Here is the base description (showing no improvements via skillpoint investment):

    Picture: http://i.imgur.com/bkeyc.jpg

    BIOFILTER SWEEP III
    Buffs Damage Resistance and Cures Toxic, Mental and Radiation Debuffs
    Removes up to 16 toxic, physical or mental effects.
    +30% All Damage resistance for 15 sec


    Yet this science skill is three to eight times more powerful than the equivalent engineering skill (again, compared to basic level for engineer):

    EQUIPMENT DIAGNOSTICS III
    Cure Mechanical Debuffs and Buff Resistance
    Removes up to 2 mechanical debuffs
    +10% All Damage resistance for 16 seconds
    Reduces Damage to Shields by 10% for 16 seconds


    As you can see, 2 versus 16 cures, and 10% versus 30% damage resist... the engineering skills are weaker than the matching science skills. Even the shield recharge skills and damage resists are weaker than the same science heals (which would be a different topic).

    One solution is that you can stack a power cell for damage buff and use EDIII for resist to achieve similar end results as Biofilter Sweep III. However when you stack it with the power cell, then your hypo is locked out for the countdown, whereas Biofilter won't lockout hypos. So Biofilter is still a more powerful skill than EDIII.

    And if you are an engineer or are familiar with EDIII, if you just look down the list of all the buffs on science kits (http://i.imgur.com/bkeyc.jpg), you will see that EDIII is comparatively weaker to just about every science cure skill (Hypospray Melorazine III, Vascular Regenerator III, Hypospray Dylovene III), which does not seem to be fair or balanced to me.

    Hypospray - Melorazine III
    Cures Mental Debuffs and Buffs Energy Resistance
    Removes all expose effects.
    Removes mental debuffs over 45 sec
    +25% All Energy Damage resistance for 45 sec

    Vascular Regenerator III
    Cure Bleed and HoT
    +660 Hit Points over 10 sec
    Removes up to 11 bleed or debuffs effects.
    +25% All Damage resistance for 10 sec

    Hypospray - Dylovene III
    Cures Toxic Debuffs and Buffs Physical
    Removes all expose effects
    Removes toxic debuffs over 45 sec
    +50% Physical Damage strength for 45 sec
    +50% Physical Damage resistance for 45 sec


    So rather than nerf weapons malfunction, I propose that we get a better counter for it through a new and improved EDIII that (1) grants higher damage resistance to offset the lengthy cooldown, or (2) lowers the cooldown duration so it can be applied more often, or (3) provides a short immunity from weapons malfunction after first use, or (4) provides a short area of effect weapons malfunction immunity or damage buff for teammates (sort of like an aoe power cell for three seconds), or (5) somehow reduces the duration of weapons malfunction for anyone (single or team aoe) who has the EDIII buff. Or anything else really, since this skill seems to be very much weaker compared to its science counterparts.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    meeowww wrote: »
    I believe Equipment Diagnostics III is supposed to mirror the science skill "Biofilter Sweep III". Here is the base description (showing no improvements via skillpoint investment):

    Picture: http://i.imgur.com/bkeyc.jpg

    BIOFILTER SWEEP III
    Buffs Damage Resistance and Cures Toxic, Mental and Radiation Debuffs
    Removes up to 16 toxic, physical or mental effects.
    +30% All Damage resistance for 15 sec


    Yet this science skill is three to eight times more powerful than the equivalent engineering skill (again, compared to basic level for engineer):

    EQUIPMENT DIAGNOSTICS III
    Cure Mechanical Debuffs and Buff Resistance
    Removes up to 2 mechanical debuffs
    +10% All Damage resistance for 16 seconds
    Reduces Damage to Shields by 10% for 16 seconds


    As you can see, 2 versus 16 cures, and 10% versus 30% damage resist... the engineering skills are weaker than the matching science skills. Even the shield recharge skills and damage resists are weaker than the same science heals (which would be a different topic).

    One solution is that you can stack a power cell for damage buff and use EDIII for resist to achieve similar end results as Biofilter Sweep III. However when you stack it with the power cell, then your hypo is locked out for the countdown, whereas Biofilter won't lockout hypos. So Biofilter is still a more powerful skill than EDIII.

    And if you are an engineer or are familiar with EDIII, if you just look down the list of all the buffs on science kits (http://i.imgur.com/bkeyc.jpg), you will see that EDIII is comparatively weaker to just about every science cure skill (Hypospray Melorazine III, Vascular Regenerator III, Hypospray Dylovene III), which does not seem to be fair or balanced to me.

    Hypospray - Melorazine III
    Cures Mental Debuffs and Buffs Energy Resistance
    Removes all expose effects.
    Removes mental debuffs over 45 sec
    +25% All Energy Damage resistance for 45 sec

    Vascular Regenerator III
    Cure Bleed and HoT
    +660 Hit Points over 10 sec
    Removes up to 11 bleed or debuffs effects.
    +25% All Damage resistance for 10 sec

    Hypospray - Dylovene III
    Cures Toxic Debuffs and Buffs Physical
    Removes all expose effects
    Removes toxic debuffs over 45 sec
    +50% Physical Damage strength for 45 sec
    +50% Physical Damage resistance for 45 sec


    So rather than nerf weapons malfunction, I propose that we get a better counter for it through a new and improved EDIII that (1) grants higher damage resistance to offset the lengthy cooldown, or (2) lowers the cooldown duration so it can be applied more often, or (3) provides a short immunity from weapons malfunction after first use, or (4) provides a short area of effect weapons malfunction immunity or damage buff for teammates (sort of like an aoe power cell for three seconds), or (5) somehow reduces the duration of weapons malfunction for anyone (single or team aoe) who has the EDIII buff. Or anything else really, since this skill seems to be very much weaker compared to its science counterparts.

    Ok first of all, looking at different abilities from different classes and do liniar "power comparisons" is always a fail approach in mmos and will do no good.

    Secondly your comparison is also very biased(you even forgot to take the shield damage reduce into account on your little ED/BS comparison). So the damage resistance part of the comparison would be much closer.
    Also i am pretty sure that the extra resistance for the shield is calculated in another more favorable way than basic damage resistance, as a shield-buffed(ED+SR) up engineer has a much stronger passive tanking property than a dr-buffed up medic, despite the damage resistance numbers on abilities which would favor the medic.
    Btw, BS cooldown is almost twice as long as ED's while its duration is fixed and not affected by skills, just a little sidenote to your objective comparison...

    Another sidenote to the other three sci abilities you listed: this ability setup is on the physician kit, and absolutely no sci uses that kit(unless they are really really bathlet crazy), despite all the oh so powerful damage resistances on the abilities, think about it.

    Also only comparing the numbers of removable debuffs to look at what ability might be stronger is just a stupid approach.
    Even a million possible "toxic and mental" debuff removal would not be worth **** against a single wm removal every 24 seconds because of the simple fact, that mental or toxic debuffs in this game tend to have an unsignificant impact on anyones gameplay(at least those that actually can be removed by the sci abilities), and noone cares about these kind of debuffs at all, while WM is a vastly more powerful debuff.
    Even for the least weapon dependant class-playstyles(i.e. medics) WM has a much bigger impact, than any mental/toxic debuff that can be removed by any sci ability, and we don't have to compare WM's or other debuffs impact on tactics captains here...

    Oh and before you get me wrong, I don't want WM to be nerfed, not because i don't think it is very poorly designed, cause it really is, but because at the current state of ground pvp, it doesn't really make sense to nerf single abilities, as there are loads of stupid abilities around that are poorly designed, overpowered, just use stupid gamemechanics or have hilarious duration/cooldown properties.

    I just find a dicussion approach kind of rediculous, in which a possibly overpowered ability's impact should be toned down, by buffing another ability of the same class that counters the first one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Goukes wrote: »
    Ok first of all, looking at different abilities from different classes and do liniar "power comparisons" is always a fail approach in mmos and will do no good.

    Okay I'll admit I have a slight grudge against Science which surfaced very clearly in that post.

    The Equipment Technician kit is the only kit where the Engineer can act like a "healer" to support the team, in the sense that the kit supports shields rather than health. So, maybe compare this with the Xenobiologist kit. Here is a side by side comparison of skills:

    Biofilter Sweeep (cure) vs Equipment Technician (fix)
    Stasis Field (hold) vs Weapons Malfunction (disable)
    Medical Tricoder (heal) vs Shield Recharge (heal)
    Anesthizine Gas (hold) vs Fuse Armor (hold)


    I think the comparison between Xenobiologist and Equipment Technician is pretty fair, and makes this kit one of the most versatile and creative for the engineer. My personal favorite.

    While I'm at it, here's a shameless promotion of me using Stasis Field (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bsZDd_8gs) and Weapons Malfunction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0LGxDZ0JQ).
    Goukes wrote: »
    Secondly your comparison is also very biased(you even forgot to take the shield damage reduce into account on your little ED/BS comparison).

    Honestly even I am not sure if they are the same damage resist or if they are separate and stacked. Thanks for letting me know. The shield resist description sounded like a description of the first damage resist buff rather than a second buff, so I assumed it wasn't actually a second DR buff. However yes, now that I think about it, it might actually provide a combination 20% resist and make it closer to the 30% provided by BS. However if you are an engineer, try this experiment: when you use ED on yourself, look in your character profile. You will only get a 10% resist added to your stats. So this seems misleading to me if there is another 10% resist to your shields but it is not listed in your stats. Since I only saw 10% added to my character's stats, then I assumed it was only 10% total and not 20%. (Sorry if this is getting confusing. I am not so good with English.)
    Goukes wrote: »
    Btw, BS cooldown is almost twice as long as ED's while its duration is fixed and not affected by skills, just a little sidenote to your objective comparison...

    Honestly didn't know that. I haven't used BS so I assumed last night it was a 24 second countdown since the kit and skill looked so close to technician and ED. I looked it up and see now that it's a 45 second recharge. Maybe it should be shortened to make it more like ED.
    Goukes wrote: »
    against a single wm removal every 24 seconds because of the simple fact, that mental or toxic debuffs in this game tend to have an unsignificant impact on anyones gameplay(at least those that actually can be removed by the sci abilities), and noone cares about these kind of debuffs at all, while WM is a vastly more powerful debuff.

    WM has a 15 second recharge and 22 second duration, so it is somewhat spammable.

    Now I'm not trying to be argumentative, but in terms of WM versus mental/toxic debuffs, it's hard to say that WM is much more severe than a mental/toxic attacks since with WM, you can switch to melee for an instant solution, but not so with science radiation attacks. So I can disable someone and it's useless if they use a Bat'leth. Whereas if science makes a radiation attack, there is not a quick and simple solution you can use on yourself (unless you or teammate is science). But yes, I'll admit that the radiation and mental attacks seem weak, I honestly haven't looked at the numbers for those since I rarely play science and am basing my opinions on observing others, reading descriptions, and limited gameplay at Lt.C. level science. Now that I think about it, maybe mental/toxic debuffs should be changed to be as vicious as weapons malfunction.
    Goukes wrote: »
    Oh and before you get me wrong, I don't want WM to be nerfed, not because i don't think it is very poorly designed, cause it really is,

    WM is perfectly fine. People, can we all just use more Bat'leth and martial arts? It'll be very fun. I want to believe the Cryptic wanted more melee fighting too, thus explaining the lengthy duration of WM. Obvious example is Kirk v. Gorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SK0cUNMnMM).
    Goukes wrote: »
    I just find a dicussion approach kind of rediculous, in which a possibly overpowered ability's impact should be toned down, by buffing another ability of the same class that counters the first one.

    Well this thread is coming to an end and I liked the discussion. I rarely post on the forums but felt I had to bump up the support for my beloved skills, and I hope Cryptic will read this and leave WM alone. But as a side note, as for Equipment Diagnostics... until I leave this game, I will never ever give up trying to make my kit better and fine tune the skills.
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