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What is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
Title says it, what is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp?
- it is leaving peoples sields at full but taking all hull in 5 to 10 seconds.
- some poeple have figured something out and are almost constantly doing it in T5 pvp now.

- no Im not talking about feedback pulse - know how that works very well and does not affect my cannons currently
- no it is not ramming speed that im asking about.
- no it it not just lag or beam over load to shields.

- I have tested Direct energy modulation 2 and it does little to nothing.

- antiproton says it has chance to bypass to hull, it it bugged and by pass alot?

If you say it is feedback pulse, or beam overload to shields then you just dont know what people have been asking about.

Tks for any constructive input
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I encountered the samething last night in pvp with my Sci ship. I felt like I was in Star Trek Generations, and the klingons figured out my shield modulation code, haha.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    tss, and in some case exploits.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Caligulaa wrote:
    Title says it, what is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp?
    - it is leaving peoples sields at full but taking all hull in 5 to 10 seconds.
    - some poeple have figured something out and are almost constantly doing it in T5 pvp now.

    - no Im not talking about feedback pulse - know how that works very well and does not affect my cannons currently
    - no it is not ramming speed that im asking about.
    - no it it not just lag or beam over load to shields.

    - I have tested Direct energy modulation 2 and it does little to nothing.

    - antiproton says it has chance to bypass to hull, it it bugged and by pass alot?

    If you say it is feedback pulse, or beam overload to shields then you just dont know what people have been asking about.

    Tks for any constructive input

    Depends on your ship, but i have seen escorts with rsp up take so much fire that the bleedthrough will still kill them quite quickly if they have nothing else available
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I have yet to encounter this.

    So far, the only thing I encountered similar was the Feedback pulse, but OP specifically stated it wasn't it. So, I am unsure what could be the root cause of the issue.

    PvP just doesn't seem as fun as it used to these days he he.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ardept wrote: »
    Depends on your ship, but i have seen escorts with rsp up take so much fire that the bleedthrough will still kill them quite quickly if they have nothing else available

    I'm a Tac/Fleet Escort and I've seen what your talking about and recently, what the OP is talking about. They are two VERY different things.

    OP: Was it a premade squad of Redside battlecruisers with mainly Tetreon Turrets and Plasma Arrays? If so, I saw them too and the only inkling I can see is simply a massive focus fire and/or stacking the same debuff. I scoured my combat log but cannot for the life of me find where my hull was taking that damage. I expect I'll find a single mega torpedo hit with a crit did it... and then it will be facepalm obvious what's actually happening.

    It was the exact same experience, repeatably. Shields down to maybe 80%, taking concentrated fire, suddenly hull drops from nearly full to 8% or lower, then its just a matter of time. And no, not TSS... the shields never so much as blinked. No TSS, no phaser proc, just a complete bypass of a large amount of dps direct to hull, and as far as I can tell, not feedback, as that is now 50/50 shield/hull, isnt it? (I havent checked) I've had feedback issues - I mount 4x AP DHC up front and pop Alpha, Beta 3, Omega 2, Tac Team2, and Rapid Fire 2, then spacebar at ~5km before cycling weapons... If the target hits feedback pulse just before my DHC bolts hit him, the reflected DPS is amazing/deadly, but it melts shields too.

    Maybe a Transphasic torp spread at point blank? Multiple Transphasic HY2 or HY3?

    As frustrating as it is, if its not an exploit, its a genius strategy that requires great coordination... or at least Vent and everyone targeting off the same person, lol. If that's the case, I'm fine with specialized premades dominating PUGs. I'm frustrated, but more so that I don't have a big PvP oriented guild here like I did in AoC, lol.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FBP does not reflect cannon damage, and the proposed change to make it do half damage to shields instead of all to hull is not yet in place.

    I suspect that the majority of 'wtf happened to me' complains are due to a combination of new stacking plasma dots, much higher Quantum Torp damage, and more people using TSS.

    Incidentally, it'd sure be nice if the combat log had an option to filter out everything except for damage done by me or to me. It's nearly impossible to glean useful data without a third party parser, which is stupid.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    It's target shield subsytems.. They drain your shield power so ur shields just go down. Even if u have RSP on, it doesn't do anything. You either have to give full power to shields, pop emergency power to shields or eat a shield battery or do all of it at the same time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Caligulaa wrote:
    Title says it, what is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp?
    - it is leaving peoples sields at full but taking all hull in 5 to 10 seconds.
    - some poeple have figured something out and are almost constantly doing it in T5 pvp now.

    - no Im not talking about feedback pulse - know how that works very well and does not affect my cannons currently
    - no it is not ramming speed that im asking about.
    - no it it not just lag or beam over load to shields.

    - I have tested Direct energy modulation 2 and it does little to nothing.

    - antiproton says it has chance to bypass to hull, it it bugged and by pass alot?

    If you say it is feedback pulse, or beam overload to shields then you just dont know what people have been asking about.

    Tks for any constructive input

    I use Beam Overload, along with several of my Klingon colleagues doing just about the same thing. When the dampening effect is on, on the other side you take damage when you are shooting or using the tractor beam. Maybe this is what you are getting caught in?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    FBP does not reflect cannon damage, and the proposed change to make it do half damage to shields instead of all to hull is not yet in place.

    I suspect that the majority of 'wtf happened to me' complains are due to a combination of new stacking plasma dots, much higher Quantum Torp damage, and more people using TSS.

    Incidentally, it'd sure be nice if the combat log had an option to filter out everything except for damage done by me or to me. It's nearly impossible to glean useful data without a third party parser, which is stupid.


    In that case, there's little or no chance what I'm seeing is FBP (only 1 AP Array in the rear, rest is projectile/cannon). Unless TSS got a change that no longer shows the shields as down, it isn't that either... though I suppose its possible its drained so damage gets past, but not turning the shield off completely??


    What you said about stacking plasma dots may be the issue then, as I stated, I saw this mainly with ENTIRE TEAMS of opponents using Plasma arrays + Tetryon turrets. I'll have to build me a tribble captn with Plasma DHCs to see how it plays out.

    I read that Tricolbolts are now glitching out to be invisible. I'm wondering if HY Plasmas and Transphasics are also going invisible.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Diligent wrote:
    It's target shield subsytems.. They drain your shield power so ur shields just go down. Even if u have RSP on, it doesn't do anything. You either have to give full power to shields, pop emergency power to shields or eat a shield battery or do all of it at the same time.

    Again, THE SHIELDS REMAIN UP THE WHOLE TIME.

    I will admit however that it is possible there is a visibility glitch not showing our shields as actually down, OR a possibility that the shield power is low but not low enough to actually remove the shields.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I'd like to make a suggestion, though I haven't tested it in a group level.

    Fire on my Mark 3 (stacked 2 or 3 times on you)

    Attack pattern Beta 3 (I believe that's the debuff to resistance, stacked 2 or 3 times)

    Multiple disrupter (or was it plasma?) resistance debuffs.

    All of these combining to lower your resistance way into the negative numbers. I've used this solo in pve and notice my bleedthrough damage triple. Now imagine if several people do it to the same target. While using antiproton weapons.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shield power does not affect the amount of damage that bleeds through your shields, only the rate of regeneration. You could have 1 shield power, but your shields won't fall until their strength on any given facing is depleted. That's not the issue.

    TSS and similar skills don't drain your shield power for very long. It's conceivable that your shields are only dropping for a split second, but if you're taking heavy fire from multiple enemy ships even half a second without shields can lead to major hull damage - especially if you get tagged by a torp in that amount of time.

    The best thing to do when this happens to you is take 10 minutes to eyeball your combat log and figure out what it was that did all the damage.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shield power does not affect the amount of damage that bleeds through your shields, only the rate of regeneration. You could have 1 shield power, but your shields won't fall until their strength on any given facing is depleted. That's not the issue.

    TSS and similar skills don't drain your shield power for very long. It's conceivable that your shields are only dropping for a split second, but if you're taking heavy fire from multiple enemy ships even half a second without shields can lead to major hull damage - especially if you get tagged by a torp in that amount of time.

    The best thing to do when this happens to you is take 10 minutes to eyeball your combat log and figure out what it was that did all the damage.

    Here's hoping I have this happen again tonight so I can see it in the logs again. I swear I looked through those things for 30 min and saw nothing that said "here is where you were killed by a big bad thing"

    ...which actually supports the idea that this is 5 Battle Cruisers mounting nothing but Plasma Arrays and simply stacking 3x5 or more arrays on me at once, resulting with 15+ dots ticking off my hull like a blow torch through paper.

    Going to be an amusing night of hard liquor and in-depth parser analysis... ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    All good input guys, whish I had the answer.

    TO add to the conversation,
    - only way it is tss is if my display is bugged on showing the sields down, but I have seen tss take down my shields many times and survived, this is like my sields dont exist at all fighting these guys. Yes I have alot of skills going to keep my shields functioning.
    - Yes, it is an organized group with alot of crusiers that is for sure, and only happens fighting a group like that.
    - In a battle against these group it happens alot and consistantly, so it is not lucky strikes.
    - I have had a 3 on 1 (me being the 1) do this to me, but at a little slower rate, and I think a 1 on one do it to me. So does not take 5+ guys hitting me.

    If it is an exploite which I hope not, it is a major 1, if it is really smart game play, then it is game altering. Once known everyone will likely have to do it to compete making shields alittle irrelivant?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    check your log it would show as a massive plasma fire damage in the combat log from what i have tested though max dps i could get from plasma fire dot from one ship was 140 per second so with 5 ships that could be 700 per second. if they all proc plasma torpedos can add to this proc for one ship not much but a little.
    if you use a log parser you should be able to tell the damage listed as Plasma Fire. see these numbers match up.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Jnoh wrote:
    Again, THE SHIELDS REMAIN UP THE WHOLE TIME.

    I will admit however that it is possible there is a visibility glitch not showing our shields as actually down, OR a possibility that the shield power is low but not low enough to actually remove the shields.

    Yes I've had this happen too. The shields NEVER go down. There's something fishy about it no question. Either a bug or glitch. Also noticing that I hit specials, the cool down timer goes off on them, but the special doesn't fire. Still not as annoying as having full shields but having attackes somehow go through them into your hull.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    "Incidentally, it'd sure be nice if the combat log had an option to filter out everything except for damage done by me or to me. It's nearly impossible to glean useful data without a third party parser, which is stupid."

    Right click combat log and only select that option.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I had the same thing happen to me as the OP. Shields at mostly full. No flicker of the shields as with when hit by TSS. Hull goes from 98% to 38% to 0 in 3 secs. And it wasn't FBP as i had all turrets and a single cannon fitted. Shield still same level. I couldn't understand what hit me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Couldn't this be the overwhelming number of tetryon turrets? Turrets shoot faster than any other cannon type. Couple that with cannon rapid fire, more than one turret per ship, more than one ship, and the tetryon chance per shot to drain shields this could make for near instant shield vaporization yes?

    Or if its not actually Tet turrets that were witnessed, whatever the type that has a chance to shield bypass.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Happend to me also from time to time...

    My best gues is that this has something too do with Ability Queue, lagg and the Phaser Procc.

    I noticed when I activate my Beam Overload and the target pops rsp at the same time, it will still hit their hull.

    So it should be possible a Phaser takes down your shield system for ~1sec but because of a short lagg the UI fails to show this and the whole stuff which was fired during the Phaser Procc (like Cannon Shots and Torpedos) will hit the hull when it conects, regardless of the shields being back up by then.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    For those that think for a fact they got this figured out, and that it is a display glitch, that is not the case.

    This is far to consistant to be just a glitch and only being done by particular organized player teams.

    It is also not only related to 5+ players combind damage and bleed through I have seen 3 or less doing it to a target and quickly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Yes, this happen to me a few times, full shield and hull, the next thing I know I dead, like one or two shotted. I noticed this event happen, regardless whatever i am engage in 1 v1 or 2 or 3 on 1.

    I have a feeling is the cannon, especially after this patch and something is off, if you read the general description of the cannon, is the only weapon that does damage to both hull and shield almost at the same rate, while every other weapons in this game only specialized in only one thing well, and have to go thru shield first. I talking about energy type weapon, combined dualcannon with torps and their high DPS,. I think they should adjust the cannon to be in line with every other weapon, and only do one thing well.. Either shield or Hull, but not both.

    Tip: Each of the weapons types has strengths and weaknesses associated with it.

    * Beams burn down shields very well but do less damage against the hull.
    * Cannons burn down shields almost as well as beams, but do more hull damage.
    * Torpedoes do little damage to strong shields, but do a lot of hull damage.
    * Turrets can burn down shields well, but don’t do as much damage to the hull.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    It just happend to me 3 times, guy with antiproton cannons and rapid fire just shooting everyone in 1-2 seconds down. With 100% shields no target shield subsystem and with rsp enabled. Something is surely wrong. Cruiser have most hull, but i just felt like a BoP. I thought first when i read this topic, oh i dont believe that. Prolly some bad PvP player that is QQing. But its really true.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Escort with 3x AP DHC and your dead. Period, thats the new god in town. You can not stop it. Serious, some people have the rare MK X AP DHC's and with RF III your dead in 3 sec. It's uber.The people using it will never post it here,just check your log.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    What we need is a better CombatLog to help use identify/diagnose this kind of issue. Please visit my thread on improving the CombatLog and sign your support. One of the DEVs (Falkoren) specifically said that if we want to see such improvements, we need to show our desire and support for it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    A fully specced Aux Science guy can strip your shields with Tachyon Beam.

    No, it isn't over powered because of the set required to use it but in general that is all that is required to dump a shield quickly. Combine that with Tetryon Cannons and shields are a moot point.

    If you are running with a good group it is your hull that matters anyway.



    Vllad
    Purge
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Caligulaa wrote:
    Title says it, what is being used to massively by-pass shields in pvp?
    - it is leaving peoples sields at full but taking all hull in 5 to 10 seconds.
    - some poeple have figured something out and are almost constantly doing it in T5 pvp now.

    - no Im not talking about feedback pulse - know how that works very well and does not affect my cannons currently
    - no it is not ramming speed that im asking about.
    - no it it not just lag or beam over load to shields.

    I had this happen to me tonight when I was playing my KDF Commander. It was on the Cracked Planetoid map, FvK. The shields stayed up, but the ship's hull went to hell in about 5 seconds. It happened twice in the same match. Both times I didn't even see anyone actually FIRING at me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    Vllad wrote:
    A fully specced Aux Science guy can strip your shields with Tachyon Beam.

    No, it isn't over powered because of the set required to use it but in general that is all that is required to dump a shield quickly. Combine that with Tetryon Cannons and shields are a moot point.

    If you are running with a good group it is your hull that matters anyway.



    Vllad
    Purge

    Its not a Tachyon beam. When this happens, you can see your shields are still at full power.

    And in respone to the post above this one, I had the same thing happen to me tonight as well. I got VM'd, I hit Sci Team II, but I stay VM'd, NO ONE is even shooting at me, and my hull goes down 0 in about 3 seconds. I'd love to know the receipe for that mixture of chaos and destruction...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I've been noticing this too. Shields at or near full, hull down to 8% in seconds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited April 2010
    I threw sticks at a fed ship once and it blew up
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