test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Why Don't More People Like Ground PvP?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited April 2010 in PvP Gameplay
I think it comes down to three things:

1) Too many holds, or rather, the lack of an effective "hold immunity". I think the palm strike/rifle melee hold is an especially annoying hold: everyone can do it, it has no cooldown and the hold lasts 5 seconds. (It DOES have a functional hold immunity but com'on, 5 seconds is way too long.)

2) Spawn ins causing you to get killed repeatedly before you can rejoin the group. This can happen in space PvP too but space is a big 3-D sphere so avoiding the enemy isn't that hard. Ground PvP is a lot of narrow hallways so there's a lot more issues of people running into deathtraps while trying to rejoin their team.

3) The 40 kill requirement means that a really lopsided match is just that much more painful for that much longer.


Solutions:

1) Create a universal hold immunity timer that starts at the BEGINNING of whatever hold hits you. I believe the duration should be 3x the duration of the hold that hit you or 20 seconds, whichever is less. That is, if a 2 second stun pistol hits you, you will be immune to other holds for 6 seconds (counting the 2 you are held). If a 10 second hold hits you, you're immune for 20 seconds, counting the 10 you are held.

It's important that the immunity begins at the START of the hold rather than the END to avoid chain holding.

1b) Make melee holds last 1 second instead of the current 5. Turn the bat'leth hold (left+left combo) into a root -- it really is painful when 3 people go at you with bat'leths. You'll be stunlocked the whole time.

2) Ideally, I think, STO ground PvP would put you into a "transporter room" where you could select your spawn in location. Maybe we should be able to spawn in wherever our group leader is? That's how some FPS games work and people seem to like that.

3) Try making it 30 kills. 15 was too few. 40 is a little too much. Optionally, bring space PvP into line by switching it to, say, 25 kills rather than the current 15.


P.S.
That new ground map? Waaay too small. You guys need to think bigger. WOW's smallest non-arena PvP map is about 4 times as big as that map you made.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I said it before and i will say it again they need to get rid of the hold part of riffle butt and palmstrike and just make it a knockback only I think that will fix the spammin of those abilitys. Everything else you said I can agree with and would be good changes except maybe the 30 kills on the ground to 25 would seem more inline IMO.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I can only speak from my own personal view point, but I find ground combat to be mind numbingly boring. I take such a dislike to it, I actually run away from away team missions.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I now really enjoy ground PvP, prefer it over space actually, but I hated it initially. All of those things you mentioned can turn someone off and away from this part of gameplay. I only found out how fun it can be because I am hard-headed and refused to just give up and walk away, never to return to ground pvp.

    The changes you mention would make it easier for someone new to get accustomed to this style of play, giving them time to experience more than chain-stunned death that can be so common.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kinja wrote:
    I now really enjoy ground PvP, prefer it over space actually, but I hated it initially. All of those things you mentioned can turn someone off and away from this part of gameplay. I only found out how fun it can be because I am hard-headed and refused to just give up and walk away, never to return to ground pvp.

    The changes you mention would make it easier for someone new to get accustomed to this style of play, giving them time to experience more than chain-stunned death that can be so common.
    I mostly feel the same way.

    As holds go, melee-spam is the only part that bugs me, especially Palm-Strike. It's actually really easy to avoid melee, but you need to take the time and practice escaping from melee first, and most people aren't willing to do that. I'd put the Rifle/Palm strike on a 6 second cooldown with an improved chance of proccing a knockback (so knockback is virtually guaranteed) and no stun. That would leave it useful for escaping melee, but make it useless for spamming for CC and exposes.

    I'd shorten other melee holds down to a second or two. Once you are in melee it can be hard to move past your opponent without holds or roots, especially if you are up against a wall (and since we mostly fight in hallways... ), so the holds in addition to that are kind of excessive.

    I don't think I like the idea of hold immunity, since it's really easy to break longer holds anyway, but I would like if there were shared diminishing returns. So that for 10 or 20 seconds after being the target of any CC, any CC used on you lasts for a quarter it's normal duration or so.

    Another thing which might help would be if consumables gave immunity to CC for 5 seconds or so.

    Overall I really don't think holds are as big an issue as the crappy ground controls. This game has the worst controls of any MMO I've played, and while they are a bit more tolerable for space, they make ground PvP a real pain to learn.

    Targeting needs to be fixed so that "target closest enemy" targets the closest enemy, "never auto-target objects" never auto-targets objects, and so that when you cycle through enemies it actually cycles through more than just the same 2 over and over.

    Ground movement needs to not suck. Directional control should always be relative to the direction the camera is currently facing. If movement were always relative to the direction the character was facing, that would be better than the current method too (I don't think that's the best method, but at least I could learn it). Right now movement often seems to be relative to the direction the character was facing when combat started. You can mostly avoid the crappy movement controls by using the mouse to move, but that won't spare you from occasionally going in a completely random direction as you try to roll to avoid fire.

    Camera controls are screwy too. Snapping to follow your target is okay, but turning around to target an ally behind you when you heal, buff, or summon an engineering device are not okay at all. (I *really* don't get why my engineer targets her nearest ally when summoning a drone). Only attacks should shift the camera view. There also doesn't seem to be a reliable way to stop the camera from snapping to face an attacker -- the options which would seem to control that sort of thing don't work.

    Ground combat has a steep learning curve just to the basic controls, and when you're wrestling with those it makes learning to avoid holds and such even harder. I'd really rather see the controls fixed before any sort of balance changes are made, because even with the hold spam ground PvP is a pretty close to balanced.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Alendiak wrote:
    I can only speak from my own personal view point, but I find ground combat to be mind numbingly boring. I take such a dislike to it, I actually run away from away team missions.
    This is the PvP forum, though, so I'm only talking about PvP.

    I agree that ground PvE is boring but then, I think the same thing about space PvE -- AI too dumb, missions too easy, etc.

    Ground PvP I actually enjoy quite a lot. "Over the shoulder RPG shooter" turned out to be more fun than regular RPG melee PvP, in my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I don't like it because the entire ground combat engine looks like something from ten years ago. It's like half-life 1 quality.

    In an era of Crysis, Bioshock, Modern Warfare 2, and other similar high-quality FPS games, STO just looks TRIBBLE together and bad. The controls are clumsy, the ability system is uninteresting and flat, but the real issue for me is just that it looks bad and isn't fun to play. The PvP aspect is totally secondary; I don't do ground content of any kind because if I wanted to play an FPS I'd go play MW2.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Slamz wrote:
    This is the PvP forum, though, so I'm only talking about PvP.

    I know, I'm referring to the gameplay mechanics. Even though space combat PVP is horribly unbalanced and promotes nigh cookie cutter builds (which if you aren't using, you might as well hit self destruct), the gameplay mechanics themselves feel altogether more enjoyable.

    Even though it's even more turnbased, for some reason I find KOTOR's more enjoyble.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I prefer ground combat over space combat because ground combat is MUCH slower.

    But, the things I dislike are the following:

    1. Holds. Lots of them, and people love to do them. As a science officer, I stand no chance standing next to a Klingon no matter what I do.

    2. Spawn camping. Has happened to me on the shanty town map... absolutely hated it.

    Yeah, that is pretty much it. Other things such as lack of coordination is player based really. But overall, I do enjoy ground combat and it actually gives me a chance at winning, rather than space.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree with the original Post. Ground PvP is a bit slow, there are very few attacks, the death match missions are a grind and assult is not as clear as it should be.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree with the OP. I like ground combat, but the damn holds are frustrating. And having hypos break them means little with chain holds and a 30 sec cooldown on them. And Motion Accelerator has the same issue - I use it, break a hold, and am immediately held again. Grrr.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I blame the 40 kill count the most. It's just overkill plain and simple.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    /agree with Slamz

    Another thing is though (not trying to troll with this) the game is so heavily based on space combat right now that players are putting their build into space and saving BO's for needed ground abilities for away team PVE. I think that is partially what you see with a lot of Feds. The skill cap does limit this IMHO. Players can't or won't put points into ground abilites at character creation and into their build while leveling and that can slant them at a disadvantage in addition what the OP pointed out.

    Having said that, hopefully the respect tool will help but as it is I don't know. When I was toying around yesterday even with the respec I can only max out one line in Admiral....my Assault cruiser skill or ground class skills.

    Just my 0.02 coppers.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I do enjoy ground PVP a lot, but there's too much CC. Also, it feels clunky and unresponsive (UI interactions) at times.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I quit ground pvp when it went to 40 kills. I have never run a ground pvp match since then. There are some other contributing reasons, but that is the one that made me stop entirely.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Definitely ground PVP is frustrating when everyone spams holds, that is the biggest turn off for me. I think a universal hold immunity could really solve the problem, although it might require reworking the fragile holds.

    And I agree and still think the matches last too long too. 40 kills is excessive. 25-30 is still a much better idea.

    The map types all being deathmatch (lets be honest, people don't do much besides deathmatch yet in shanty town) doesn't help matters either. I'd still like to see a zombie apocalypse style map from Champs, redone and imported into STO where KDF and Feds could fight side by side against hordes of borg, until all are assimilated.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Slamz wrote:
    I think it comes down to three things:

    1) Too many holds, or rather, the lack of an effective "hold immunity". I think the palm strike/rifle melee hold is an especially annoying hold: everyone can do it, it has no cooldown and the hold lasts 5 seconds. (It DOES have a functional hold immunity but com'on, 5 seconds is way too long.)

    2) Spawn ins causing you to get killed repeatedly before you can rejoin the group. This can happen in space PvP too but space is a big 3-D sphere so avoiding the enemy isn't that hard. Ground PvP is a lot of narrow hallways so there's a lot more issues of people running into deathtraps while trying to rejoin their team.

    3) The 40 kill requirement means that a really lopsided match is just that much more painful for that much longer.


    Solutions:

    1) Create a universal hold immunity timer that starts at the BEGINNING of whatever hold hits you. I believe the duration should be 3x the duration of the hold that hit you or 20 seconds, whichever is less. That is, if a 2 second stun pistol hits you, you will be immune to other holds for 6 seconds (counting the 2 you are held). If a 10 second hold hits you, you're immune for 20 seconds, counting the 10 you are held.

    It's important that the immunity begins at the START of the hold rather than the END to avoid chain holding.

    1b) Make melee holds last 1 second instead of the current 5. Turn the bat'leth hold (left+left combo) into a root -- it really is painful when 3 people go at you with bat'leths. You'll be stunlocked the whole time.

    2) Ideally, I think, STO ground PvP would put you into a "transporter room" where you could select your spawn in location. Maybe we should be able to spawn in wherever our group leader is? That's how some FPS games work and people seem to like that.

    3) Try making it 30 kills. 15 was too few. 40 is a little too much. Optionally, bring space PvP into line by switching it to, say, 25 kills rather than the current 15.


    P.S.
    That new ground map? Waaay too small. You guys need to think bigger. WOW's smallest non-arena PvP map is about 4 times as big as that map you made.
    no its the fact tha t never spend any thought to groung pvp just spam button at random pop a shield or a granade and then run around shooting.. swap weapons and hope for an expose.. and eventiually A team wins.

    Ground combat skills imo doesn't do much.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    There are pretty much 2 extremes with ground pvp.. that go along with lopsided-ness.. either its entirely too frustrating or its incredibly awesome.. the best matches are when the final scores are so close.. alot of action there.

    but, overall, personally, I enjoy the ground pvp so much more than anything else in this game. Its just crazy fun going to work on someone with that batleth thingie!! :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I actually find ground combat to be incredibly clumsy and repetitive which leaves be a bit confused because space combat can really be described in pretty much the same way. But in space I get pretty ships with which to go pew pew. Not really sure what could be done to ground combat to make it more fun for me. I think I'm just to biased towards space game play.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I don't like the ground interface at all, it is just not smooth like in World of Warcraft or Aion. With my Bo's doing a planet encounter fine. But ground pvp, forget it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Ground combat is too slow, too clunky and boring for most people. The ground combat should have been fps/3rps based since we're using guns! It would have been popular as space combat if would have been.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    What i do not like with ground PvP is that its too much "ability based" and too little skill.

    Space combat is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs.
    But ground PvP is basicly about nothing else than spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button.

    Not that i think its going to happen, but ground PvP would be much better off if they remade the whole system to a FPS or 3PS with manual aiming and minimal effect abilitites.
    No idea though if the engine even supports that.... but thats my opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    What i do not like with ground PvP is that its too much "ability based" and too little skill.

    Space combat is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs.
    But ground PvP is basicly about nothing else than spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button.

    Not that i think its going to happen, but ground PvP would be much better off if they remade the whole system to a FPS or 3PS with manual aiming and minimal effect abilitites.
    No idea though if the engine even supports that.... but thats my opinion.

    Thats a very biased opinion.
    How can someone say ground pvp is too much "ability based", when space at the current state, is pretty much defined by TSS, SNB, FBP or VM? You dont have those? Then you have to pray not to meet anyone who has them, which will be more and more unlikely as the bandwaggon rolls.
    From that point of view, ground pvp gives you way more freedom to choose your playstyle and be successful with it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    What i do not like with ground PvP is that its too much "ability based" and too little skill.

    Space combat is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs.
    But ground PvP is basicly about nothing else than spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button.

    Not that i think its going to happen, but ground PvP would be much better off if they remade the whole system to a FPS or 3PS with manual aiming and minimal effect abilitites.
    No idea though if the engine even supports that.... but thats my opinion.

    I disagree completely. Some players may play by just "spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button" but to consistently win against evenly matched teams takes much more. I think what you said about space combat fits exactly with skillful ground combat, it "is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs." Using cover and maneuvering for good shots is a large part of skillful ground combat - in fact I believe it is MORE important than abilities, buffs and debuffs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kinja wrote:
    I disagree completely. Some players may play by just "spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button" but to consistently win against evenly matched teams takes much more. I think what you said about space combat fits exactly with skillful ground combat, it "is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs." Using cover and maneuvering for good shots is a large part of skillful ground combat - in fact I believe it is MORE important than abilities, buffs and debuffs.

    Agreed. I play a fabrication engineer, so aside from one shield buff, I have no spammy abilities; yet I still do very well because I try to play smart.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I find Ground PvP much more enjoyable than Space PvP. It also helps that I'm better at Ground than Space.

    My complaints would be the same as others: Holds and 40 kill limit.

    Put diminishing returns on all holds, and a god damn cooldown on buttspam. Doesn't have to be long -- 2 seconds is enough time to run away from a failed riflebutt / palmstrike before they can hit you again.

    Change the kill limit so that you need 40 kills OR 15 more kills than the other side (whichever comes first). That would put an end to overly one-sided fights much less painfully...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Biggest problem is that if you want to kick TRIBBLE in ground combat, you have to shortchange your space combat skills.
    and vice versa, they need to be decoupled...or Ill just keep ignoring ground skills and focusing on My space Skills.
    PvE I don't need the ground skills anyway, my BO's do just fine.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The skill points division issue between ground and space is legit. My Klingon has a lot of points spent in ground and I do get rocked to Mars when in space PvP. My character is also a beast in ground as a result of the skill points spent though. Not sure if I think this is a good or bad thing, because people love having my Klingon in their infected group (and probably cringe when I'm doing space pvp).

    The other is in regards to "buttspam" - the rifle butt melee action. Most tacticians don't spend skill points in melee skills, so they really don't understand how much of an advantage they have in melee. While I think being exposed to a rifle slap is annoying, there is balance in giving melee strength. I don't know what the solution would be if it was to be changed, but I would not like to see melee nerfed as it is currently a necessary balance in favor of tacticians. Perhaps the solution would be to make it so engineers and scientists could not expose with the rifle slap move, only tacticians could?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Space combat is actually a challenge and takes skill to fight, to be able to maneuver for the shots and stay out of the enemy's main firing arcs.
    But ground PvP is basicly about nothing else than spamming buffs, debuffs, holds, and just hitting the fire button.

    This is false. It takes skill to be good at both. Most people don't have skills in ground, mostly due to lack of experience. There is a huge noticeable difference between the really good players and the average players in both types of PvP.

    Most good PvPers get hammered with enemy debuffs, holds, stuns, roots - and survive.

    The vast majority of players don't know what to do when that happens in ground PvP - then they die - then complain about ground PvP.

    My favorite is when someone gets hammered with holds, roots, stuns, and debuffs and dies - then starts whining about it during the match. They don't seem to notice how they were killed by 3 people, and ignore in their analysis how they just charged into the three people like a lone gunman and expected to win...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think it's more personable, interactive, requires quick reactions and paying attention to your suroundings and is extremely unpredicable.

    I love the fact that one on one I can beat anyone on the map, but can be beaten by anyone as well. When I have a good day and my fingers are hitting the right keys at the right time, I feel almost unstoppable. I know when I should have won a fight I didnt because I didnt react quick enough or hit the wrong key, and I know when I won becasue of blind luck. Once you get experienced and knowledgeable, you know when you did well or poorly.

    I have to agree with most that holds are sometimes laugable. Many a fight I have died without getting a single shot off or a singe riflebutt because of chain holds. It usually only happens when I'm 1 vs 3 or so, so I would have died anyway, but to die without doing any damage is frustrating.

    Weapons Malfunction gives the reciever a resistance buff to it after the first sucessful WM, holds (no matter what type of hold) should be the same.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    What's wrong, the short list:

    1. It's not believable
    • too much melee
    • most weapons have too short a range
    • all weapons have the same range i.e. pistol and "sniper rifle" have same range
    • very hard to kill a player with space age weapons, give me a break
    • all weapons have the same DPS unless using their special attack
    • over reliance on expose (which is what really) and hold
    • powers are OP, cut out most of the spell casting


    2. Maps are too small and confined
    • perhaps the reason weapons have such a short range and all the same range
    • not enough variety in terrain
    • unable to use much in the way of tactics
    • need a combination of indoor and outdoor ground combat

    3. Lacks competitive "sporting" events
    • 1:1 arena where players can consentually place wagers and run tournaments (bat'leth or other)
    • Last man/klingon/whatever standing cage match (20 to 40 players) all tiers together
    • Team arena (20 or so players per team) where pugs or fleets can competed (run on a timer, say 20 minutes)

    4. Where the frak is the OPEN PvP? Places where large numbers (100+) players from all tiers duke it out.
    • space - a huge deep space battlefield (no terrain to gobble up video memory)
    • ground

    5. (Edit) How could I forget the fraked up queue system. I mean really, how hard is it to get this right?
Sign In or Register to comment.