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My arguement for cheaper respecs, please comment.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Please read my whole post before commenting:

There are 3 different classes, Tac/Sci/Eng

Each class can use 3 ships

Each ship can tank/hea/buff/dps (givin escorts can only really dps effectively, but the possibility for crazyness exists.)

There are completely different specs for

PvE
Ground
PvP

For ALL of the listed combinations.

Thats over 70 different possible specs for reasonable gameplay choices using ONLY IDEAL SPECS.

Now do you begin to see the problem? If there was no skill point cap as they had intended, it would make sense not to have a lot of respecs. As is I have 3 different char slots, for 70+ different specs. If i wanna PvP one day and PvE the next day and be good at both, i have to either pay real money or grind for around 20 hours?

You honestly think thats acceptable?
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    SithToker wrote:
    Please read my whole post before commenting:

    You honestly think thats acceptable?

    The bean counters at Atari say "yes".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The bean counters at Atari say "yes".

    which is kinda sad imo.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    No, but that's one of many reasons why I am otherwise avoiding the c-store. They expect people have disposable incomes and are willing to spend 5 dollars here, 2 there, to buy things that most MMO's make standard just for subscribing to them. The respec cost alone is at the very least proof of concept for why they want you to spend even more money than a monthly subscription instead of playing the game that you paid for.

    It isn't acceptable, and should be shunned so that all developers around know that a microtransaction system only works when incorporated properly, wholly, and completely into the game.

    Case in point, DDO is a way where the system is done right. You are rewarded for subbing instead of milked further by needing to buy tiny nuances or perks, whilst simultaneously you don't need to sub to play, but would have to otherwise buy stuff the subbers would get for free, bonus things like items, tomes, etc aside.

    Things like renaming your captain can and rightfully should cost extra. Modifying a database is risky, and requires oversight at the very least. Paying for a respec that you could do in game, but is egregiously and obviously overpriced, is not.

    Nevermind the new ship models, bridges, etc that should always be a perk of the subscription, and not something to milk out of already paying customers.

    Don't get me started on the character slots.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Wow... I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought MTs for a subscription based MMO were just taking advantage of the players.

    /agrees with OnyxBMW
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    this is just my point of view on a respec and the game and i assume you are just talking about in game merits here

    i think its fine from my point of view a respec is to tweak your character because you made a mistake or to go down a completely different route to try something new. its not there to be used every five minutes to suit your needs. you should be limited in the way you create a character. if you want to make a new tank or a new pvp style, then roll a new character.
    i like the fact that everybody is different and has different strengths and weakness. if you say there are 70+ ways to build a character then its cool that everybody should be unique in the way they create it, not just tailoring their builds to suit every situation.

    if you build a character that is good at pve you should not be able to just switch to a good pvp or to a good tank or to a good healer. you should not be a master at everything at the drop of a hat. that is what alts are for

    i will agree that we need more free character slots though as i dont think 3 is enough. 5 or 6 would be more appropriate, others would want more but considering we can have up to 6 ships, 10 bo's and our character that is a lot of information so i understand why they might have limited us to 3.

    i really think respecs should be used sparingly in games and we get enough free ones and have no problem with them being expensive (merits), as for the c-store, its each players choice to add more if they want. no one forces them to buy them. the game gives them enough respecs to use, if that's not enough then that's not the games fault.

    is the c-store a sneaky way to make money, it probably is and maybe the skins and bridges should be in game but in terms of respecs then there should be an option for people who really want to spend real money on one,
    it will forever amaze me that people complain about optional extras as that is all they are, optional. if you dont want to spend money on it dont, but others might. its our choice. you can spend real money to change some things in the game but if you really dont want to then just work within the confines of the game itself.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I think they should give us a few days of free re-specs to play around and see what we wanna stick with, after that i don't care..... Anyone know how re-specs on the test server work?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The argument that character builds shouldn't be reset on a whim is valid, but not in this case.
    Not with this system. This system is haphazard with vague skill descriptions and forces you to spend x amount of points to rank up and, most importantly of all this system is capped but wasn't designed for a cap.

    However much some people (you know who you are) bark that the cap is integral and part of the core mechanics.. it isn't. It was slapped on at the last minute on a system never designed for a cap.
    In other words, the system is BROKEN and the high cost to respec penalizes players for not having the clairvoyance to know just exactly what build is right for them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Make it dearer. You made the choice live with it and adapt just like real life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    the high cost to respec penalizes players for not having the clairvoyance to know just exactly what build is right for them.

    thats what the free ones at every increase in rank and after every major update introducing new skills are for, to allow people to change if they made a mistake
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    thats what the free ones at every increase in rank and after every major update introducing new skills are for, to allow people to change if they made a mistake

    The problem is with such a broken system you're bound to keep making mistakes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree with the OP. The resepc price is way too high. I know they dont want to make this game like wow but making 20k is outragious imo. I think like 2k is acceptable thats like 4 to 5 missions and its high but not too bad either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I guess cryptic don't want to hand stuff to you on a plate.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The problem is with such a broken system you're bound to keep making mistakes.

    works ok for me, i made some mistakes because the tree is not that clear. but my respec fixed that

    the tree does need to be reworked and made clearer but i prefer the cap and believe its improved the game in my view. yes they changed it at the last minute and some things need sorting as a result but i never would have had unlimited skill points in first place

    or just reduced the speed at which you acquire the skills after RA5 as a compromise
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    thats what the free ones at every increase in rank and after every major update introducing new skills are for, to allow people to change if they made a mistake

    This is how its done in CoX as well. You get 3 only in-game throughout your leveling career. You have to complete a TF to obtain them and you can only have 1 at a time (can't have 3 saved). You do get free respec tokens at various points in the Veteran Rewards program there as well.

    It is also important to note that when changes were made that impacted powersets, free respec tokens were given to everyone even if they didn't have a character that used the powersets that were changed. I don't doubt at all if the skilltree is changed significantly here, free respec tokens will be granted to everyone.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kevscar wrote: »
    Make it dearer. You made the choice live with it and adapt just like real life.

    Only problem with this is that Cryptic is making changes to the game. This may cause playes to want to tweak their build based on Cryptics changes.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Leigis wrote:
    Only problem with this is that Cryptic is making changes to the game. This may cause playes to want to tweak their build based on Cryptics changes.

    but when ever they change the game they said we get a free respec
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Leigis wrote:
    Only problem with this is that Cryptic is making changes to the game. This may cause playes to want to tweak their build based on Cryptics changes.

    I have no doubt that if changes are made to the skilltree system, they will grant free respec tokens. They have done this before with CoX.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    but when ever they change the game they said we get a free respec

    What they say and what they do are 2 completely different things.

    Furthermore, the system doesn't need to encourage respeccing every 5 minutes, but when you realize there are optimal specs for PVP, PVE, ground combat, space combat, etc etc, you start to realize where the system starts to fall apart.

    My BG5 char is an engi set up in a tank cruiser. I like to experiment and try different things. Something other MMO's allow you to do rather cheaply. Try different builds. Different weapons.

    Getting 4 free respecs throughout my career wouldn't even let me figure out which skills would properly allow me to maximize defensive skills, let alone what weapon I want the most, such as if polaron weapons are actually worth the investment or sheer novelty.

    Throw in that my spec is purely based for space combat, so-as to be optimal, it means if I ever want to go into ground combat, I am screwed by proxy of not having anything devoted into them.

    Sure, it was my choice, but my choices wouldn't be so damning if I was offered actual real chances that didn't involve blatant grinding of PVP or the occasional klingon mission for hours on end to swap around.

    The system is set up to encourage you quite forcefully to use the C-Store at some point or another.

    You say to roll more characters. What happens if you have a DPS tac, CCer sci, and tanker engi, but then realize you want your engi to run a hybrid DPS/Heal build. Roll a new char? No. Out of merit/honor? Well, yeah! What do you do? Face down a multi-hour grind? (Good luck if you're klingon!) No! The C-Store's there to save the day!

    It's a blatant and obvious attempt to force people into the C-Store at one point or another, specifically to get stuff that should be included in the game.

    There are ways to make the respec system limiting without outright discouraging people from ever wanting to respec. Nevermind when you have such a discouraging multi-hour/day grind that is sidestepped by spending cold, hard cash.

    It's not hard to connect the dots.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Apologies for sounding like a bafoon! :D

    I swear to god i like STO so much,, my ship, my crew, my victory!!

    But i dont get it,
    i just dont get it........


    It was the same in Champions Online,
    so a month ago when i was in ingame chat and said ''when respecs are released i bet they are gonna cost cryptic points in STO too like in CO, everybody in the chat channel agreed, coz it was NO-BRAINER! heheh...

    Now, the point is we all know respecs in most any game are done through purely in game means without actually paying any real cash.. (AT LEAST in MOST pay-to-play games),

    So i wonder how does one in STO: A PAY - TO - PLAY GAME (buy the game PLUS pay SUBSCRIPTION) JUSTIFY SELLING RESPECS FOR REAL CASH?

    What do they say when asked? How do they say it?? :D
    I just wanna know.
    Thanks!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The argument that character builds shouldn't be reset on a whim is valid, but not in this case.
    Not with this system. This system is haphazard with vague skill descriptions and forces you to spend x amount of points to rank up and, most importantly of all this system is capped but wasn't designed for a cap.

    However much some people (you know who you are) bark that the cap is integral and part of the core mechanics.. it isn't. It was slapped on at the last minute on a system never designed for a cap.
    In other words, the system is BROKEN and the high cost to respec penalizes players for not having the clairvoyance to know just exactly what build is right for them.


    I agree on the fact that the skill system as it is needs an overhaul. A system that was designed without a point cap doesn't work too well if one is added at the last minute.


    However, I fail to see the link between this fact and the wish of a few "here today, gone tomorrow" kind of people to be able to change their spec whenever they please.


    You know, this bullcr** happened in WoW too. At first, one was able to have one talent build only, but could respec it whenever one wanted - however, the cost of respecing would rise everytime it was done up to a hurtful amount of in-game gold per respec. "People" complained.
    So, the max limit for these costs was set to 50 gold, with a chance to lower itself again over time if you don't respec for while. Still, "people" complained.
    Then, after a long time, a "dual spec" system was added, allowing players to pick two talent builds and switch between them whenever they wanted, at no extra cost safe for an "activation fee" of 1000 gold. And for a short time, "people" were happy.
    But then "people" started to complain again, asking for the possibility to get a "triple spec" - some of them went even further.


    Do you see where this is going? Now, you may wonder why I always put quotation marks around the word "people" - this is because those special few were by far not the majority, yet would keep complaining as if they were speaking for everyone.
    Blizzard catered partially to them because they saw that their game indeed was going into a direction on which it was almost required to have at least two talent builds readily available - then again, this also had something to do with the fact that there are hybrid classes who are only efficient (that is, useable) within a certain role if their selected talents fully supported that role.
    And indeed, for a warrior to be able to do loads of damage, he needed to be speced in one of two damage skill trees. For efficient tanking however the same warrior is required to spec into the tanking tree.


    Now, one could argue that something similar would apply to STO. This however is not really true for a number of reasons:

    - Unlike WoW, STO does not have the classic "tank, healer, dps" class distinctions. The classes and starships of STO resemble this pattern, but by far not as specialized and distinct as the classes in WoW are.

    - Except for maximizing your character's efficiency for the two STFs and maybe PvP, in STO one can pretty much skill anything and equip anything and still succeed in the game.

    - Even without "maximizing" your abilities for a given situation, unless one completely specs into a direction that he really doesn't even remotely use, everyone with practically any talent build can bring something to the table and contribute to a mission's success.



    To sum up my posting: be glad that we finally have the option to respec at all. And if you really feel the need to respec for practically each and every mission / engagement you want to play just be a big boy and pay the price for it, either with merrits or with real currency.

    However, for those special "people" that "don't get it", I recommend a different game that really allows and requires you to practically tinker with your skills at least once per day - STO is not that kind of game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Focalor wrote:
    Apologies for sounding like a bafoon! :D

    I swear to god i like STO so much,, my ship, my crew, my victory!!

    But i dont get it,
    i just dont get it........


    It was the same in Champions Online,
    so a month ago when i was in ingame chat and said ''when respecs are released i bet they are gonna cost cryptic points in STO too like in CO, everybody in the chat channel agreed, coz it was NO-BRAINER! heheh...

    Now, the point is we all know respecs in most any game are done through purely in game means without actually paying any real cash.. (AT LEAST in MOST pay-to-play games),

    So i wonder how does one in STO: A PAY - TO - PLAY GAME (buy the game PLUS pay SUBSCRIPTION) JUSTIFY SELLING RESPECS FOR REAL CASH?

    What do they say when asked? How do they say it?? :D
    I just wanna know.
    Thanks!


    Oh, but you don't HAVE to buy your respec from the C-Store, you can use your merrits as well.

    Of course, if you can't use merrits anymore because you used up all of them, you can either play some missions till you once again have enough merrits, wait for another free respec or buy your respec from the C-Store.


    Personally, I consider the given OPTION to respec from the C-Store as a justified way for all those people who have too much cash and either too little patience or too little oversight.
    Of course, there are those few that always wanna shine as best they can, skill-wise, in every single moment of the game, but from the way things look right now that is neither how the game is intended to work nor is it required. If you still want to respec at least twice per day, it's gonna cost you. Simple as that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Oh, but you don't HAVE to buy your respec from the C-Store, you can use your merrits as well.

    Of course, if you can't use merrits anymore because you used up all of them, you can either play some missions till you once again have enough merrits, wait for another free respec or buy your respec from the C-Store.


    Personally, I consider the given OPTION to respec from the C-Store as a justified way for all those people who have too much cash and either too little patience or too little oversight.
    Of course, there are those few that always wanna shine as best they can, skill-wise, in every single moment of the game, but from the way things look right now that is neither how the game is intended to work nor is it required. If you still want to respec at least twice per day, it's gonna cost you. Simple as that.

    To be honest, i didnt know you could respec with merits, i thought it was a one-way ticket to buy respecs.
    Well, u learn something new every day i guess.
    ANd yeah, i dont freaking need to respec every day, week or even a month, i choose my skills very carefully after research on the forums and in-game inquaries, so paying merits would be just fine to me in that case.
    Cheers for the answer)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    SithToker wrote:

    There are completely different specs for

    PvE
    Ground
    PvP

    For ALL of the listed combinations.

    Thats over 70 different possible specs for reasonable gameplay choices using ONLY IDEAL SPECS.

    See, there's your problem. You aren't talking about "ideal" but about "optimised for one specific task". An "ideal" spec is one that's good in every situation, not perfect in one and crappy everywhere else.

    To all those who complain that they should have more free respecs to try out different builds:

    1) Tribble. Copy character, respec, try out, delete character, copy character, respec, try out, delete....
    2) You get a free one every rank-up. If you are rear admiral you should by now be able to understand enough about the system to take the skills you need.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Focalor wrote:
    To be honest, i didnt know you could respec with merits, i thought it was a one-way ticket to buy respecs.
    Well, u learn something new every day i guess.
    ANd yeah, i dont freaking need to respec every day, week or even a month, i choose my skills very carefully after research on the forums and in-game inquaries, so paying merits would be just fine to me in that case.
    Cheers for the answer)


    Glad I could help.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    but when ever they change the game they said we get a free respec

    Hadn't heard that...All good IMO then.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I have no doubt that if changes are made to the skilltree system, they will grant free respec tokens. They have done this before with CoX.

    Thing is, i dont want their free tokens. I wanna be able to respec for PvP or PvE, for tanking or for dps or for buffing at a whim.

    This isnt the early days of MMO's, i know CO does it this way. Cryptic as far as im aware is one of the last devs using this arcane way of talenting.

    You say i should pick something and go with it? Should I spec PvP on Sci/Tac/Eng?

    Should i spec that Sci/Tac/Eng for a Sci/Cruiser/Escort?

    How am I supposed to know what im going to feel like doing tomorrow?

    Might as well charge 20k merits every time someone changes costume. If everyone had access to every skill as they had originally planned, this wouldnt be an issue, we wouldnt need lots of respecs. As is they have limited our choices, which is fine. But allow me to CHOOSE to do something else, because i feel like it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    K-Tar wrote:
    See, there's your problem. You aren't talking about "ideal" but about "optimised for one specific task". An "ideal" spec is one that's good in every situation, not perfect in one and crappy everywhere else.

    To all those who complain that they should have more free respecs to try out different builds:

    1) Tribble. Copy character, respec, try out, delete character, copy character, respec, try out, delete....
    2) You get a free one every rank-up. If you are rear admiral you should by now be able to understand enough about the system to take the skills you need.

    No.

    Thats not counting all the hundreds of thousands of permutations of non ideal specs. I do understand the skillz, i can respec my characters from memory depending on what I'm trying to do. Tribble is useless, i dont just enjoy one little part of the game, i want to be good at whatever i happen to be choosing to do today.

    Choice is NOT a bad thing.

    Variety is the spice of life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Focalor wrote:
    To be honest, i didnt know you could respec with merits, i thought it was a one-way ticket to buy respecs.
    Well, u learn something new every day i guess.
    ANd yeah, i dont freaking need to respec every day, week or even a month, i choose my skills very carefully after research on the forums and in-game inquaries, so paying merits would be just fine to me in that case.
    Cheers for the answer)

    People like the OP want you to think you can't get them for free.

    Buy respecs with merits.
    Free token when they were implemented.
    Free token when you get promoted.
    Free token when they add/remove/change a skill.

    If you actually have to pay for a respec, you're doing something wrong.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree on the fact that the skill system as it is needs an overhaul. A system that was designed without a point cap doesn't work too well if one is added at the last minute.


    However, I fail to see the link between this fact and the wish of a few "here today, gone tomorrow" kind of people to be able to change their spec whenever they please.


    You know, this bullcr** happened in WoW too. At first, one was able to have one talent build only, but could respec it whenever one wanted - however, the cost of respecing would rise everytime it was done up to a hurtful amount of in-game gold per respec. "People" complained.
    So, the max limit for these costs was set to 50 gold, with a chance to lower itself again over time if you don't respec for while. Still, "people" complained.
    Then, after a long time, a "dual spec" system was added, allowing players to pick two talent builds and switch between them whenever they wanted, at no extra cost safe for an "activation fee" of 1000 gold. And for a short time, "people" were happy.
    But then "people" started to complain again, asking for the possibility to get a "triple spec" - some of them went even further.


    Do you see where this is going? Now, you may wonder why I always put quotation marks around the word "people" - this is because those special few were by far not the majority, yet would keep complaining as if they were speaking for everyone.
    Blizzard catered partially to them because they saw that their game indeed was going into a direction on which it was almost required to have at least two talent builds readily available - then again, this also had something to do with the fact that there are hybrid classes who are only efficient (that is, useable) within a certain role if their selected talents fully supported that role.
    And indeed, for a warrior to be able to do loads of damage, he needed to be speced in one of two damage skill trees. For efficient tanking however the same warrior is required to spec into the tanking tree.


    Now, one could argue that something similar would apply to STO. This however is not really true for a number of reasons:

    - Unlike WoW, STO does not have the classic "tank, healer, dps" class distinctions. The classes and starships of STO resemble this pattern, but by far not as specialized and distinct as the classes in WoW are.

    - Except for maximizing your character's efficiency for the two STFs and maybe PvP, in STO one can pretty much skill anything and equip anything and still succeed in the game.

    - Even without "maximizing" your abilities for a given situation, unless one completely specs into a direction that he really doesn't even remotely use, everyone with practically any talent build can bring something to the table and contribute to a mission's success.



    To sum up my posting: be glad that we finally have the option to respec at all. And if you really feel the need to respec for practically each and every mission / engagement you want to play just be a big boy and pay the price for it, either with merrits or with real currency.

    However, for those special "people" that "don't get it", I recommend a different game that really allows and requires you to practically tinker with your skills at least once per day - STO is not that kind of game.

    Hello, i find you rather condescending. I do 'get it'. I just wanna be able to play the game and do what i'm supposed to be doing the best i can in any given situation. That is the point of a RPG right? to fufill your ROLE?

    And to be glad we have any option at all? I guarantee if there was just no respec option a lot of people would quit. Tinkering with your character is fun. Penalizing someone because they want to PvP one day and be competitive at it, and PvE the next and be competitive at it is silly in the modern age of MMO's.

    God forbid i wanna try out different ships either right? (and be competitive while using them).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    People like the OP want you to think you can't get them for free.

    Buy respecs with merits.
    Free token when they were implemented.
    Free token when you get promoted.
    Free token when they add/remove/change a skill.

    If you actually have to pay for a respec, you're doing something wrong.

    Ya sorry, already RA, and had to pay yesterday even tho i had a token. That tokens gone now, thx for playin, better luck next time.
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