As a preface, I'm a BG5 Klingon Battlecruiser player. Some of you may have fought me, others fought beside me. Hard to say, but who knows? Anyways. A lot of people bring up cloaking as a massive imbalance, and I'm here to point out what I see about it, what is wrong with it, and potential solutions that don't involve castrating cloaking.
First and foremost: Cloaking isn't a problem. It has a few innate advantages. Freedom of Movement, Alpha Strike, and Running.
From what I've seen, however, Federation ships have the advantage of also being, in general, stronger than Klingon ships. To what degree, I do not know, and this fact may be wrong, but it has been, at the least, observed. Escorts aside, which hit like a truck but then die pretty fast generally. Buff escort survivability.
Anyways, let's look at these three advantages.
Alpha Strike. This is, basically, the ability to attack a person first, before they have a chance to react. Ideally, an alpha strike ends with the so called "fedball" being broken apart, or with the intended target or kill order dying.
Advantages: First strike capabilities allow a person to ideally be killed off before they can react, allowing for an otherwise assumed 5v5 game to turn into a 5v4 game, making the odds instantly better for Klingon victory. Furthermore, the ability to prebuff before an alpha strike, such as charge up rapid fire, hit your EPS Power Transfers, Emergency Power to Weapons, etc, to allow you to hit as hard, and as fast as possible.
Disadvantages: You tend to blow your primary DPS abilities at the beginning. The alpha strike period tends to last until either the initial focus target is dead, or is hardened so-as to be unkillable. If the alpha strike fails, the klingons are immediately disadvantaged, especially with their arguably weaker ships. (Ignore this part if it can be proven otherwise).
Analysis: The problem with the perceived first strike advantage is, simply, a combination of bad federation tactics, such as federation players who don't ball up or move as one cohesive group, or more ironically, were balled up but then split off into multiple smaller groups. Federation players will never survive an alpha strike if 2 of their teammates are off running to who knows where as the other half is left wondering why they're getting horribly decimated by 5 klingon ships. The other 2 won't last long after.
Solutions: The biggest issue with the alpha strike is the un-fun situation of your ship spontaneously exploding in 10 seconds. No one likes dying, and no one likes dying from a threat they couldn't see. It's especially worse when combat is so fast that the time it takes to see the target pop up on sensors, and your spontaneous death, happens so fast you likely didn't have time to react. Slowing down combat would, universally, help mitigate the sting of an alpha strike, so that good federation teams are able to compensate for it and turn it into an advantage in favor of them. Naturally, federation players being stupid hurts just as much as klingon players being stupid (we've all seen players on both sides charging in 1 at a time or splitting off to do who knows what).
Running: This is, basically, the ability for a Klingon player to run from combat and either Battle Cloak, or drop combat and then cloak, escaping further pursuit.
Advantages: You deny a kill to your enemies. You kite enemy players away from the main battle, potentially making it even easier for the main group to finish off the enemy.
Disadvantages: You potentially leave your allies to be slaughtered by the enemy. You leave the combat, and don't aid the fight in any immediately obvious ways. You annoy your healers, who are trying to keep you alive so you can continue helping.
Analysis: This is a fun tactic that can be employed by federation and klingon players alike, with klingons having the unique ability to also completely break off from combat if they either get out of the combat (and ergo can cloak) or have access to a battle cloak.
Solutions: There really is nothing wrong with this part of the cloak. Simply put, there are counters to runners, such as CMing and giving chase, tractor beam, even the oft-hated CC's of viral matrix and SNB can be used to stop runners. I can't comment on battle cloak, as I am a cruiser pilot, but I usually see birds of prey dying before they can escape combat, so I do not believe this is a problem of cloaking.
And last but not least, the largest problem with cloaking I can see, freedom of movement.
Freedom of Movement consists purely and entirely of the ability to roam around the battlefield completely safe from all harm, barring accidentally being run into or otherwise disturbed.
Advantages: You can roam around completely safe from unwanted attention, attack, or otherwise being pulled into combat in unfavorable situations. You are capable of regrouping after a failed attack to re-strategize your attack, probably with an alpha strike. You can wait out your opponent, cause frustration for them due to not attacking, or make them even wonder if they left the game. There are endless advantages to how effective this is.
Disadvantages: If you're careless, you can wander into someone depth charging VIA mines or even get scanned unintentionally. You have to cloak first, which means if you're spawned next to a fed, you may be out of luck.
Analysis: This is, hands down, the largest problem I can see with cloaking. If a klingon alpha strike is successful in breaking the fedball, they are scattered. Due to random respawn locations, and possibly pug syndrome, federation players are stuck separated from each other hoping they're in a team with someone calling a location to meet at to regroup before the klingon players start roaming to pick off stragglers. Naturally cloaked so that they don't know when the threat is coming. The federation players in a tight, cohesive group is hard for klingon players to crack, and is incredibly balanced barring insane damage numbers that can devastate a group before anyone can properly react.
However, once that ball is cracked, unless the klingons essentially allow the federation to regroup, you'll either have the feds streaming in one at a time like lambs to slaughter, or they will be hunted down 1 by 1 as they spawn in by the roaming death squad of klingons in 2v1 or worse odds for the federation.
I have at times made it a practice to allow federations to regroup (trying to get my group to go with me for a better game). Sometimes I have not, and I anticipate that many do not. The act of systematically hunting down the remnants of the federation as they scramble to regroup is fun for a klingon, but I can only imagine how horrible it is as a fed char when the klingons come and blast them to kingdom come.
Solution: This is a rather complex problem, since it has multiple issues associated with it. Cloak itself is fine. The inability to regroup is not. The easiest solution for initial problems associated with this is: Have a minute or so long warm up time before the match starts to allow federation to stream in. When games end up being 5v1 versus feds, spawn camping is going to happen. The inverse is true for klingons being disadvantaged. If the feds get slaughtered as they fall in, they are never given a chance to group up. The same is arguably true of klingons. Fixing this will help one facet of the problem.
The next is a bit more complex than that, obviously. Federation players need the ability to regroup, much like klingons can. Giving them the ability to strategize is just as important, since it's a huge fact of Klingon PVP that they go over tactics, strategies, kill orders, etc before the alpha strike begins. Allowing the federation to think would go a long way to solving this problem.
Now, there are many ways to allow this. There can be a so-called waiting area that, when the feds die, they can wait, separate from the klingons, and think out what to do, and then leave the area and transfer to a random gate. All of them. As a cohesive unit. That part is important. If they aren't allowed to regroup, then what would it accomplish splitting them up.
Another potential solution is: Allow the federation to also stealth. Now, I don't mean a proper klingon stealth. What I mean would be a stealth that allowed them freedom of movement and the option to think, organize, and then come out and start attacking.
How would this "stealth" work? Well, you could spawn in the federation at random gates as you do now, but then give them a ~15 second buff. During this time, if they activate full impulse, they can stealth much like a klingon ship. The stealth would last indefinitely as long as full impulse was maintained. You could regroup as feds, rush back into the battle as you normally do (even surprising klingon players at your unexpected return) or any number of different things, so long as you maintain full impulse.
Once impulse were dropped, you would come out of stealth, obviously disadvantaged with no weapons, shields, or auxiliary power until the power shifts back over, maintaining the advantage of klingon stealth.
You would not be able to re-enter this state unless you died, however.
The idea behind this system is, it wouldn't need to major an overhaul like allowing a staging area would, and would still allow for freedom of movement of the federation characters. I won't argue what the system would be called, since this is merely a concept solution, but it's merely the best, easiest solution I can think of.
Further aids could be to allow the scoreboard to show: Who is in the current battle, what class they are, and what ship they are piloting.
When combined, I imagine that: Lower damage, More information, and Freedom of Movement for the federation would ultimately allow for the federation side to remove a pretty glaring flaw in the stealth system, while still maintaining the most important aspect for the klingon side: That of the alpha strike.
In Cracked yes the opening can be the deciding factor, but that is often more player dependant than people realise. once that is over the zerg advantage moves to the federation. Many fed teams do not move and wait, not a bad plan. Once the initial strike is over and ships start poping rsp the fed ships will repawn closer to the figthing, the klingons however have to travel right across the map. recloaking for ships other than bops is not possible, and a bop that runs with only 4% hull will be gone longer than a dead bop. once the klingons lose a shp the balance can quickly move to the federation players as a lot of kdf players will also try to zerg back, but the kdf is not designed to zerg in such a away as well as the federation.
However get one or two kdf players with very high burst and you can quicly see the federation steamrolled, and this shows in the scorecard, one or two kdf will have 2-300k while the rest sit at 30-50k and the sit at federation at 30-50k. it was not cloak that won it was the players that could deliver enough damage to make that initial strike count.
the inability of the federation to regroup is more a map design flaw more than anything else, there could be a safe box to prevent spawn camping, or you could pick your respawn point, either the start point or one of the side points, but not the other factions start point. Thus if they want to spawn in an zerg right away to grind down the exposed klingons they can, or spawn further away and regroup there together if they consider the engagement over at the original location. this however is a seperate issue from cloak, and it is also the main point of contention that constitutes the cloak is OP call as it is almost always in relation to cracked planets current design
In other maps, the salvage, for example the cloak does allow movement, it allows the kdf player to scout and assess. If i see a cap point showing activity i can go look, if there are one or two players and i think i can win i will start a fight, if i see 5 i can decide not to, resulting in the cappin of the point, the death, or avoidance of death makes no difference. However once the big fight starts as it tends too, the advantage of cloak is over. i could just as easily move uncloaked select a target and start shooting. Playes are already focused and stealth or not will not offer an advantage. an escort could just as easily arrive and and pick a target who is unaware if its presence and start shooting. (this also applies to cracked planet where the alpha strkie failed to kill the 5 off before respwns) this is when awareness takes over, some people are so fixed on their own target they pay almost no attention to the state of their own ship, until it is too late.
Steaths biggest advantage, out side of unrestricted movement is in the opening of those one v one situations, particularly when you catch someone flying past at impuse so you are at 100% power and they are at 0 power, giving you more time to fire while receiving little to no damage in return. tho tbh i still see a lot of kdf players impulse in uncloak and start shooting at 0% power, totally negating the advatage of cloak. again more a problem in cracked planet where the death of a player is a factor in winning and the player cannot reach his team.
Federation regrouping could be helped by having a strong base of operations in the map that unveils cloaked ships or at least has significant firepower to bear against a ship decloaking there. The only risk now would be that the Federation never leaves it. In a "capture the flag" type map, that's no problem, but if it's just about scoring kills, it would be. Of course, the same problem should exist with Klingon vs Klingon problems,when everyone cloaks and hides from everyone else.
I think a longer combat to give more time for counter-measures would be nice.
Heh; gather a group of people whom you trust; and ask them not to cloak once during a match and see what happens. Results won't be much different unless you are lucky enough to find opponents that are not lemmings.
Cloacking has never been a problem, and the first strike ability is just a design intent. The problem is the players who cant work around the cloack dilemma. Most Klingons as ive seen prefer to full impulse in cause they got SHIELDS UP. Cloack runs a chance to be detected with shields DOWN. Goodness ive caught many Klingons like that and they got decimated. Most experienced fed players knows how to deal with suprise attacks, heal the victim, get away, FBP you name it.
Those that get destroyed, DESERVES to die and need to learn from it.
>>>>Another potential solution is: Allow the federation to also stealth. Now, I don't mean a proper klingon stealth. What I mean would be a stealth that allowed them freedom of movement and the option to think, organize, and then come out and start attacking.
Ha! Have you tried KvK? No thanks. Change re-spawning if required to make re-grouping easier, but no to adding more stealth.
I've always said that cloak gives a huge tactical advantage beyond just alpha strike. Never worrying about being attacked is a big one. And vice versa always knowing how many fed ships are heading your general direction. Feds also don't get the advantage of flying around and taking out solo klingons that haven't regrouped yet.
And lets be honest, there is a slight increase in hull strength on fed ships but it has next to zero to do with a ship surviving combat. It's almost all bridge officer abilities. Once a cruiser runs out of RSPs he's dead.
I got jumped once by two BoPs and had no RSPs left. I was dead in about 10 seconds. And I was in a cruiser with 34% resistance and an engineering team to boot. And shields are a joke anymore.
I don't think they should nerf cloak though or give cloak to the feds for that matter. Just allowing a place to group up would make a huge difference.
It wouldnt be as much of a problem if the cloaked ship coming at you was just a lone ship, but when you have 5 cloaked ships hitting you , the odds (if you are honest) are very different. I agree with a chance to strategize with the fed side. That would go a long way. Still this dog pack strategy that the KDF side uses is difficult to beat without being in a fleet. I propose, put those same KDF players in a 1 on 1 PVP environment, and the playing field becomes more level. The only problem i see with that, is there will have to be a time limit as to how long you can cloak in that situation or some will be there but wont de-cloak for the duration.
OP, nice thread, well thought out and informative.
I personally am not concerned about the cloaking itself. But the regroup issue presents itself time and again if in a non-fleet group, and especially in Cracked Planet scenario. Much like fighting CE and having players who don't pay attention to chat from more experienced players, you get the result where Fed regrouping is made even more difficult after having your TRIBBLE handed to you because some yo yo fed cowboy decided to go off on their own. I love the challenge of PVP, but don' always have the opportunity to play with a coordinated group. And in that particular scenario, the cloaking and first strike capabilities definitely present a greater obstacle to challenging , yet enjoyable, play.
I agree the ability to alpha is a major bonus to the KDF and with damage the way it is getting focused by 5 KDF comming out of cloak and there is nothing that's really going to save you. BTDT.
I had the occasion to do some PVP over the past few days and frankly most of the feds play like TRIBBLE. They may take the group invite but then they zip off by themselves and usually cause a wipe as the rest of the team tries to catch up with them.
The new Crit and damage of canons plays a big part in this. as well. The first breaking of the fedball defines how the rest of the encounter will go. Sure the fed group can wipe and regroup but then they are setup again for the decloaking alpha. Combine that with the multitude of BoP's running some combination of tac and sci together and it makes for a rough round 2.
The only thing that would mitigate this is toning down DPS or adding shield/hull/resist buffs to slow combat down. That way when the alpha comes the fed team has a chance to react in stead of starting the game down 1 or 2 ships.
It wouldnt be as much of a problem if the cloaked ship coming at you was just a lone ship, but when you have 5 cloaked ships hitting you , the odds (if you are honest) are very different. I agree with a chance to strategize with the fed side. That would go a long way. Still this dog pack strategy that the KDF side uses is difficult to beat without being in a fleet. I propose, put those same KDF players in a 1 on 1 PVP environment, and the playing field becomes more level. The only problem i see with that, is there will have to be a time limit as to how long you can cloak in that situation or some will be there but wont de-cloak for the duration.
WHY DON'T YOU JUST JOIN A FLEET?
What's so horrible about TEAMWORK?
STOP WHINING ABOUT NOT BEING A GOD!
You have BETTER ships!!!!! That Klingons have already played a fleet side officer long enough to unlock Klingon content, and then gotten ROLLED repeatedly until they joined a fleet and started teaming with the same people all the time, is not a matter of ship abilities. If you want teamwork to have no advantages, STOP PLAYING MMOS AND GO BACK TO TETRIS.
Better ships? at T5 advanced escort has worse turn rate, and only 20% more hull than a BOP. Meanwhile the bop gets highly versatile crew assignment (which lets face it, means almost everything in terms of survivability), 30% better turn rate, and battle cloak... I can have VM 3+RF+HY on my BOP, come in, alpha and cloak away before the fed ball can even react. From playing t5 on both fed and klingon side I can honestly say I'd never trade my t5 bop w/all the benefits of cloak in addition to its loadout capabilities for the t5 fed escort given the choice, and that shouldn't be imo, there should be enough desirable traits to at least make it equally, or near equally desirable to play.
As to the OP, great post, the regrouping issue is the biggest, and really only problem I've had with cloaking. Once the klingon side figures out who the heavy hitters are, we can alpha them every time that is a huge advantage in and of itself, the fact that feds have the time can't even regroup gives them little chance against multiple coordinated alphas.
My Fed is only in T3 now but I don't see a problem with cloak only a problem with inexperienced or just plain bad players. If you stick together and support each other things work out well. When a few bozos go flying off on their own it can make it tough.
For the Klingons, you can have a poor player and be fine.
For the Federation, if the team has even ONE bad player, it's over for everyone.
This is now exponentially true that PvP is an ultra fast paced dog fight.
I enjoy Klingons being able to cloak, it makes me very watchful. However, being a cruiser, my ONLY hope is reverse shield polarity. Without that, I am dead within seconds.
If combat was slowed down to a point where I could actually even ask my team for help while being attacked, that'd help sooooo much.
From what I see, it'd be fun as escorts in PvP since it is a fast paced dog fight. But sadly, Klingons cloack and get the first strike, which means escorts would be immediately out. That leaves the cruisers to fly in the dogfight, and we only last a few seconds.
Imagine in ST Generations if the Duras sisters had said "So what about that galaxy class' shields... we'll take them down in under 3 seconds anyway".
The BoP should be "No match" for a Galaxy class starship... The K'Vort might be though (Which you Klinkies need cuz that ship rocks).
Meh. Currently its this:
Klingons have the win button.
Federation have the Press This and THEN press Win button.
As a tac fed flying in an T5 advanced escort I have to say the cloak isn't the problem in PvP. So many newbies cry foul because they get blasted out of the sky within the first 10 seconds. I should know, cuz I used to be one of them.
The saying is true in life like it is in STO "All's fair in love and war". If the enemy has an advantage, adapt, improvise and overcome.
If you don't want to get blown to bits in the first 10 seconds pop RSP and EM and get the hell out of dodge!
The Klingon's have cloaks and if the Romulans become a playable species so should they. This is Star Trek after all, right? So in the Star Trek universe what did the federation do to counter cloaks? Nothing!
Superior tactics and superior technology is all the federation had. So to me, the problem is that the Klingon's have the same science and engineering abilities as the Federation. Give the Klingons only 1 ensign for engineering and science BOffs regardless of level or officer type. Kkeep the fragile hulls and tweak their shields to have 2x shields fore while rear and flank shields are always at 1/2 power.
In the series and movies isn't this how the Klingon's rolled? Sick DPS combined with alpha strike capability made them a force to be reconed with, not viral matrix and SNB!
On a side note, I do think there should be a better counter to cloaks though. The 10K limit to detect cloaked ships is rediculous since at 5-7K they are decloaking and firing. Maybe a 20K range would allow you to see "something" is approaching but not enough to fire on while the 10K limit would allow for firing. This wouldn't change things much for Klingons since they would still control the battlefield and have alpha strike capability. But it may be enough to warn fed ships so that they can get into firing positions and better prepare for the alpha strike. It would be a difference of one to two seconds, maybe three. Just enough to turn your escort towards the incoming fleet.
Cloak by itself isn't a problem. Holds and DPS are problems, and since whichever side gets the holds and DPS off first is likely to win, cloak is an advantage. If ships were tougher and CC were weaker, cloak wouldn't be such a big advantage.
One thing that the OP missed is that cloak gives a positioning advantage in combat. My Federation cruiser starts off most fights with the enemy at my 6 o'clock, so my aft guns get more of a workout than anything else on my ship. On my Klingon cruiser I mount a couple of dual cannons on the front, because the fight will always start with my forward guns on target, and is likely to not last long enough for an enemy to find my flanks.
The advantage of the initial cloak positioning is compounded by Klingon ships having superior maneuverability in almost every case. It means that the Klingons can maintain superior position after the fight becomes more fluid.
An easy fix would be to just give the feds reduced power drain from using reverse. Backing up can help a lot in getting an enemy off your 6, but if you're in a cruiser you're likely to be at 25 stacks of the debuff before bringing your forward weapons to bear.
Just increasing everyone's survivability could help too. Maneuver is so important because it enables DPS, and DPS matters more than defense.
One thing that the OP missed is that cloak gives a positioning advantage in combat.
Not really. The counter to the positioning advantage is not as big a deal for experienced Fed PvPers. An experienced Fed team will fly in formation as part of a fed ball. One lead ship will determine direction throwing in the occasional crazy ivan. The Klingons still determine "when" with the cloak. But this forces the Klingons to give up some of their battle control as the feds are now determining "where" the battle will take place.
Granted, it's not too difficult for a Klingon battlegroup to swoop in behind a moving fed ball. But with a science ship popping off a particle burst every now and again the Klingons run the risk of detection.
The advantage you are referring to is the one the Klingons have against most federation PvPers who just sit at their spawn point waiting for the battle to start. It's like Halloween, you know mike meyers is somewhere in the house do you a) get the hell out of the house and run so that he can't sneak up on you or do you b) go upstairs and take a shower so he can hack you into a thousand pieces while you rinse out the conditioner?
Onyx, I dont know what planet your on but I got 2 RA5's and 1 BG5, and you have no clue what your talking about. I have pvp'ed all 3 toons and the Cloak is not a problem, even at times its a nuisance. When you go cloak in a fight you become very vulnerable for that first few secs, sometimes you get away other times you dont.
Imagine in ST Generations if the Duras sisters had said "So what about that galaxy class' shields... we'll take them down in under 3 seconds anyway".
The BoP should be "No match" for a Galaxy class starship... The K'Vort might be though (Which you Klinkies need cuz that ship rocks).
.
And this sums up all the crying many federation players, the perception is a cruiser should always beat a bop. Hate to break it to you but a t5 cruiser is just a t5 ship, no better or worse than another t5 ship, it is not god mode. Some cruisers i can make go boom (and elicit a small giggle at how easy it was) some make such a fight of it i honestly couldn't tell you who is goping to win. However i expect to win every fight and end up losing some, if you expect to lose well then that is half my work done.
The only problem with it is in 5vrs5 arena style matches the feds spawn locations are known and the Klingons always get the opportunity to pick their first strike. In Salvage map if the feds ball up its not such a problem; except in T1 where the BoP simply outclasses the Miranda. The real problem in my mind is PvP ARENAS.
Arenas are not like WAR at all. And I don't just mean the game by Mythic.
Klingons are stealthy lethal opponents to the Federation. That's cannon, and that's this game. However the Klingons should lack resources, they should also lack the numbers and research capabilities of the Federation. IF this game was truly serious about asymmetrical warfare they would have separate faction specific BOF abilities for both sides, and they would have a large open PvP zone with dozens of different objectives that by claiming these objectives new faction specific PvP only abilities could become avialble. Perhaps if feds take a certain key Klingon planet they can train the limited cloak for their escorts, for example.. (just an example)
Large space would simply destroy the Klingons perceived advantage. They would NOT know were the Feds are going to be all the time. MES could actually be utilized and you could actually hide fleets in large space areas (You could even have a AoE MES skill for this purpose). Science vessels could have long range sensors and be able to detect cloaked Klingons without giving their specific location away (like a 20 second "radar" scan.(Again maybe an ability that can be trained if you take a key Klingon world)
Klingon's would be vastly outnumbered most of the time. This would allow their cloak to save them from the unbalanced nature of the population problem. They can't just hide in cloak while the feds take their star systems now can they?
So cloak is a advantage, but much less of one in T5, and only in this one ARENA style game format. Give us open world PvP (in a safe Zone from PvE guys) and the whole thing would be amazing, and a totally new experience for everyone.
Cryptic please don't major on this Arena style PvP you put together. Your game will shine in a open PvP setting I am convinced of it.
Realize that Brittany Spears may have sold a bazzilon records, but she will never be remmbered in history like Jimi Hendrix will. We know you can do PoP records Cryptic, now make The Dark Side of the Moon.
Comments
However get one or two kdf players with very high burst and you can quicly see the federation steamrolled, and this shows in the scorecard, one or two kdf will have 2-300k while the rest sit at 30-50k and the sit at federation at 30-50k. it was not cloak that won it was the players that could deliver enough damage to make that initial strike count.
the inability of the federation to regroup is more a map design flaw more than anything else, there could be a safe box to prevent spawn camping, or you could pick your respawn point, either the start point or one of the side points, but not the other factions start point. Thus if they want to spawn in an zerg right away to grind down the exposed klingons they can, or spawn further away and regroup there together if they consider the engagement over at the original location. this however is a seperate issue from cloak, and it is also the main point of contention that constitutes the cloak is OP call as it is almost always in relation to cracked planets current design
In other maps, the salvage, for example the cloak does allow movement, it allows the kdf player to scout and assess. If i see a cap point showing activity i can go look, if there are one or two players and i think i can win i will start a fight, if i see 5 i can decide not to, resulting in the cappin of the point, the death, or avoidance of death makes no difference. However once the big fight starts as it tends too, the advantage of cloak is over. i could just as easily move uncloaked select a target and start shooting. Playes are already focused and stealth or not will not offer an advantage. an escort could just as easily arrive and and pick a target who is unaware if its presence and start shooting. (this also applies to cracked planet where the alpha strkie failed to kill the 5 off before respwns) this is when awareness takes over, some people are so fixed on their own target they pay almost no attention to the state of their own ship, until it is too late.
Steaths biggest advantage, out side of unrestricted movement is in the opening of those one v one situations, particularly when you catch someone flying past at impuse so you are at 100% power and they are at 0 power, giving you more time to fire while receiving little to no damage in return. tho tbh i still see a lot of kdf players impulse in uncloak and start shooting at 0% power, totally negating the advatage of cloak. again more a problem in cracked planet where the death of a player is a factor in winning and the player cannot reach his team.
Cloacking is by far a nuisance at best imo.
I agree with this statement
I think a longer combat to give more time for counter-measures would be nice.
oops that must be a bug as text isnt supposed to crit
Those that get destroyed, DESERVES to die and need to learn from it.
Enough cloack complaints.
Ha! Have you tried KvK? No thanks. Change re-spawning if required to make re-grouping easier, but no to adding more stealth.
I just checked your logs, the Wall of text crit was a visual bug, the actual damage was:
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Iylenya"
I've always said that cloak gives a huge tactical advantage beyond just alpha strike. Never worrying about being attacked is a big one. And vice versa always knowing how many fed ships are heading your general direction. Feds also don't get the advantage of flying around and taking out solo klingons that haven't regrouped yet.
And lets be honest, there is a slight increase in hull strength on fed ships but it has next to zero to do with a ship surviving combat. It's almost all bridge officer abilities. Once a cruiser runs out of RSPs he's dead.
I got jumped once by two BoPs and had no RSPs left. I was dead in about 10 seconds. And I was in a cruiser with 34% resistance and an engineering team to boot. And shields are a joke anymore.
I don't think they should nerf cloak though or give cloak to the feds for that matter. Just allowing a place to group up would make a huge difference.
I have had PvP missions as a Fed where it appeared no one was in the map and after 5 minutes I left after circling the map a few times.
I personally am not concerned about the cloaking itself. But the regroup issue presents itself time and again if in a non-fleet group, and especially in Cracked Planet scenario. Much like fighting CE and having players who don't pay attention to chat from more experienced players, you get the result where Fed regrouping is made even more difficult after having your TRIBBLE handed to you because some yo yo fed cowboy decided to go off on their own. I love the challenge of PVP, but don' always have the opportunity to play with a coordinated group. And in that particular scenario, the cloaking and first strike capabilities definitely present a greater obstacle to challenging , yet enjoyable, play.
I had the occasion to do some PVP over the past few days and frankly most of the feds play like TRIBBLE. They may take the group invite but then they zip off by themselves and usually cause a wipe as the rest of the team tries to catch up with them.
The new Crit and damage of canons plays a big part in this. as well. The first breaking of the fedball defines how the rest of the encounter will go. Sure the fed group can wipe and regroup but then they are setup again for the decloaking alpha. Combine that with the multitude of BoP's running some combination of tac and sci together and it makes for a rough round 2.
The only thing that would mitigate this is toning down DPS or adding shield/hull/resist buffs to slow combat down. That way when the alpha comes the fed team has a chance to react in stead of starting the game down 1 or 2 ships.
WHY DON'T YOU JUST JOIN A FLEET?
What's so horrible about TEAMWORK?
STOP WHINING ABOUT NOT BEING A GOD!
You have BETTER ships!!!!! That Klingons have already played a fleet side officer long enough to unlock Klingon content, and then gotten ROLLED repeatedly until they joined a fleet and started teaming with the same people all the time, is not a matter of ship abilities. If you want teamwork to have no advantages, STOP PLAYING MMOS AND GO BACK TO TETRIS.
As to the OP, great post, the regrouping issue is the biggest, and really only problem I've had with cloaking. Once the klingon side figures out who the heavy hitters are, we can alpha them every time that is a huge advantage in and of itself, the fact that feds have the time can't even regroup gives them little chance against multiple coordinated alphas.
I take it that is the Klingon position.
For the Federation, if the team has even ONE bad player, it's over for everyone.
This is now exponentially true that PvP is an ultra fast paced dog fight.
I enjoy Klingons being able to cloak, it makes me very watchful. However, being a cruiser, my ONLY hope is reverse shield polarity. Without that, I am dead within seconds.
If combat was slowed down to a point where I could actually even ask my team for help while being attacked, that'd help sooooo much.
From what I see, it'd be fun as escorts in PvP since it is a fast paced dog fight. But sadly, Klingons cloack and get the first strike, which means escorts would be immediately out. That leaves the cruisers to fly in the dogfight, and we only last a few seconds.
Imagine in ST Generations if the Duras sisters had said "So what about that galaxy class' shields... we'll take them down in under 3 seconds anyway".
The BoP should be "No match" for a Galaxy class starship... The K'Vort might be though (Which you Klinkies need cuz that ship rocks).
Meh. Currently its this:
Klingons have the win button.
Federation have the Press This and THEN press Win button.
The saying is true in life like it is in STO "All's fair in love and war". If the enemy has an advantage, adapt, improvise and overcome.
If you don't want to get blown to bits in the first 10 seconds pop RSP and EM and get the hell out of dodge!
The Klingon's have cloaks and if the Romulans become a playable species so should they. This is Star Trek after all, right? So in the Star Trek universe what did the federation do to counter cloaks? Nothing!
Superior tactics and superior technology is all the federation had. So to me, the problem is that the Klingon's have the same science and engineering abilities as the Federation. Give the Klingons only 1 ensign for engineering and science BOffs regardless of level or officer type. Kkeep the fragile hulls and tweak their shields to have 2x shields fore while rear and flank shields are always at 1/2 power.
In the series and movies isn't this how the Klingon's rolled? Sick DPS combined with alpha strike capability made them a force to be reconed with, not viral matrix and SNB!
On a side note, I do think there should be a better counter to cloaks though. The 10K limit to detect cloaked ships is rediculous since at 5-7K they are decloaking and firing. Maybe a 20K range would allow you to see "something" is approaching but not enough to fire on while the 10K limit would allow for firing. This wouldn't change things much for Klingons since they would still control the battlefield and have alpha strike capability. But it may be enough to warn fed ships so that they can get into firing positions and better prepare for the alpha strike. It would be a difference of one to two seconds, maybe three. Just enough to turn your escort towards the incoming fleet.
Feds hardly have stronger ships. They are quite on par, if not more towards the Klingon side.
One thing that the OP missed is that cloak gives a positioning advantage in combat. My Federation cruiser starts off most fights with the enemy at my 6 o'clock, so my aft guns get more of a workout than anything else on my ship. On my Klingon cruiser I mount a couple of dual cannons on the front, because the fight will always start with my forward guns on target, and is likely to not last long enough for an enemy to find my flanks.
The advantage of the initial cloak positioning is compounded by Klingon ships having superior maneuverability in almost every case. It means that the Klingons can maintain superior position after the fight becomes more fluid.
An easy fix would be to just give the feds reduced power drain from using reverse. Backing up can help a lot in getting an enemy off your 6, but if you're in a cruiser you're likely to be at 25 stacks of the debuff before bringing your forward weapons to bear.
Just increasing everyone's survivability could help too. Maneuver is so important because it enables DPS, and DPS matters more than defense.
Not really. The counter to the positioning advantage is not as big a deal for experienced Fed PvPers. An experienced Fed team will fly in formation as part of a fed ball. One lead ship will determine direction throwing in the occasional crazy ivan. The Klingons still determine "when" with the cloak. But this forces the Klingons to give up some of their battle control as the feds are now determining "where" the battle will take place.
Granted, it's not too difficult for a Klingon battlegroup to swoop in behind a moving fed ball. But with a science ship popping off a particle burst every now and again the Klingons run the risk of detection.
The advantage you are referring to is the one the Klingons have against most federation PvPers who just sit at their spawn point waiting for the battle to start. It's like Halloween, you know mike meyers is somewhere in the house do you a) get the hell out of the house and run so that he can't sneak up on you or do you b) go upstairs and take a shower so he can hack you into a thousand pieces while you rinse out the conditioner?
And this sums up all the crying many federation players, the perception is a cruiser should always beat a bop. Hate to break it to you but a t5 cruiser is just a t5 ship, no better or worse than another t5 ship, it is not god mode. Some cruisers i can make go boom (and elicit a small giggle at how easy it was) some make such a fight of it i honestly couldn't tell you who is goping to win. However i expect to win every fight and end up losing some, if you expect to lose well then that is half my work done.
The only problem with it is in 5vrs5 arena style matches the feds spawn locations are known and the Klingons always get the opportunity to pick their first strike. In Salvage map if the feds ball up its not such a problem; except in T1 where the BoP simply outclasses the Miranda. The real problem in my mind is PvP ARENAS.
Arenas are not like WAR at all. And I don't just mean the game by Mythic.
Klingons are stealthy lethal opponents to the Federation. That's cannon, and that's this game. However the Klingons should lack resources, they should also lack the numbers and research capabilities of the Federation. IF this game was truly serious about asymmetrical warfare they would have separate faction specific BOF abilities for both sides, and they would have a large open PvP zone with dozens of different objectives that by claiming these objectives new faction specific PvP only abilities could become avialble. Perhaps if feds take a certain key Klingon planet they can train the limited cloak for their escorts, for example.. (just an example)
Large space would simply destroy the Klingons perceived advantage. They would NOT know were the Feds are going to be all the time. MES could actually be utilized and you could actually hide fleets in large space areas (You could even have a AoE MES skill for this purpose). Science vessels could have long range sensors and be able to detect cloaked Klingons without giving their specific location away (like a 20 second "radar" scan.(Again maybe an ability that can be trained if you take a key Klingon world)
Klingon's would be vastly outnumbered most of the time. This would allow their cloak to save them from the unbalanced nature of the population problem. They can't just hide in cloak while the feds take their star systems now can they?
So cloak is a advantage, but much less of one in T5, and only in this one ARENA style game format. Give us open world PvP (in a safe Zone from PvE guys) and the whole thing would be amazing, and a totally new experience for everyone.
Cryptic please don't major on this Arena style PvP you put together. Your game will shine in a open PvP setting I am convinced of it.
Realize that Brittany Spears may have sold a bazzilon records, but she will never be remmbered in history like Jimi Hendrix will. We know you can do PoP records Cryptic, now make The Dark Side of the Moon.