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ground pvp is dead in this game.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited March 2010 in PvP Gameplay
for all those changes you guys did in the patch, you seam to have lacked interest to fix the biggest problem in ground pvp, unbreakable hold from stun guns and massive rifle butt spamm since its the best way for others to held people locked up.

When a gun have 3 sec to refresh a 100% hold attack and the hold stick solid for 8 sec when it hit it dont take a genious to understand how bad it is for the pvp ground game.

I think most people experience hold bad except maybe engineers that seam to overall love it, along with weapon dissruption that disstupt your weapon, your holstered weapon those in the bags and even those left home in the bank for what seam to be an enternity in pvp ground game.

I must say when i heard pvp was going to be fixed i was excited when i see the result that what was bad before just have gotten worse than ever its the end of the line for me, lifetime or not at the moment STO is going fast for a uninstall process and im pretty sure its dead the day any other sci fi mmo rolling over it.

least for now we have space engagements to enjoy while the Devs obviously all playing engineers sitting in ground people to join their maps so they can kill people unable to shoot or move for the duration of the fight.

totally a dissapointment.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    for all those changes you guys did in the patch, you seam to have lacked interest to fix the biggest problem in ground pvp, unbreakable hold from stun guns and massive rifle butt spamm since its the best way for others to held people locked up.

    When a gun have 3 sec to refresh a 100% hold attack and the hold stick solid for 8 sec when it hit it dont take a genious to understand how bad it is for the pvp ground game.

    I think most people experience hold bad except maybe engineers that seam to overall love it, along with weapon dissruption that disstupt your weapon, your holstered weapon those in the bags and even those left home in the bank for what seam to be an enternity in pvp ground game.

    I must say when i heard pvp was going to be fixed i was excited when i see the result that what was bad before just have gotten worse than ever its the end of the line for me, lifetime or not at the moment STO is going fast for a uninstall process and im pretty sure its dead the day any other sci fi mmo rolling over it.

    least for now we have space engagements to enjoy while the Devs obviously all playing engineers sitting in ground people to join their maps so they can kill people unable to shoot or move for the duration of the fight.

    totally a dissapointment.

    after all the good things they added this is what you want to focus on? WIth a good enough team holds wont matter
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    what you want a focus on, new ships new clothes are all good, but this game orbit pvp, ground and space, everyone knows the bugs what work and what dont work in pvp. good pvp games are the close ones, no one have fun if they cant shoot move or do anything but being target practise for a unbalanced pvp match.

    there is some serious issues that needed focus with pvp, and they seam to have missed every single one of them, the queues for one its still 5 vs 1 matches because people get impatient and do other things while waiting and don't leave the queues when they enter other maps or do missions or even go afk. so yes this was what i was looking for with a expansion that supposedly was going to fix pvp.

    in the long run it dont really matter what uniform i have when im held held held and cant move it only makes me a prettier corpse.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    As pointed out above, it sucks when half of both teams are held or rooted in place, until longer cool down times are added or the holds are nerfed some ground pvp will continue to suffer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You can cure holds with hypos now.

    Although they did increase the cooldown on hypos.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I have to agree with the original post. Since re-specs were implemented but holds not fixed, just about every ground combat Fed I've seen re-spec'd to optimize hold times / effects, roots, etc. Hold spam was already bad... now it's just insane.

    Space combat is also broken. Many space maps are running into a fail-to-terminate bug, so the match never ends nor resets, and the regular combat rewards are never given.

    With both ground and space broken, there's not much left to do for klingons to do pvp-wise.

    I seriously hope some hot-fixes are on the way. Until then, I'm retiring back to WoW...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    i don't think the holds are bad at all, when u get expose ur roll out or run around the corner or behind something, the expose goes away rather quickly then before patch. No the problem is the many science players who will root you, so you can't escape, and ur expose to exploit to vaporized. Seems to me, Cryptic wants everyone to play science. Science kills everything. i mean everything, because they can prevent from moving...on the ground, and even in space. SubNuc may not be bad, but that was no fix for space.

    ....er back to the topic...I also notice with the patch in ground matches, Blue team pugs were on even playing field with the Red team pugs...it could be just be me, Q'n in the right time. I know I had to change tactics for my Tactical Klingon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shar487 wrote:
    I have to agree with the original post. Since re-specs were implemented but holds not fixed, just about every ground combat Fed I've seen re-spec'd to optimize hold times / effects, roots, etc. Hold spam was already bad... now it's just insane.

    Space combat is also broken. Many space maps are running into a fail-to-terminate bug, so the match never ends nor resets, and the regular combat rewards are never given.

    With both ground and space broken, there's not much left to do for klingons to do pvp-wise.

    I seriously hope some hot-fixes are on the way. Until then, I'm retiring back to WoW...

    Wow yea I was playing my klink on ground pvp and I am not a big fan of the changes. Basically slowed refresh on weapons while not touching stuns etc equates to not fun pvp. Seems like an even bigger adv to be engin/sci and spec expose/eploit builds.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    for all those changes you guys did in the patch, you seam to have lacked interest to fix the biggest problem in ground pvp, unbreakable hold from stun guns and massive rifle butt spamm since its the best way for others to held people locked up.

    When a gun have 3 sec to refresh a 100% hold attack and the hold stick solid for 8 sec when it hit it dont take a genious to understand how bad it is for the pvp ground game.

    I think most people experience hold bad except maybe engineers that seam to overall love it, along with weapon dissruption that disstupt your weapon, your holstered weapon those in the bags and even those left home in the bank for what seam to be an enternity in pvp ground game.

    I must say when i heard pvp was going to be fixed i was excited when i see the result that what was bad before just have gotten worse than ever its the end of the line for me, lifetime or not at the moment STO is going fast for a uninstall process and im pretty sure its dead the day any other sci fi mmo rolling over it.

    least for now we have space engagements to enjoy while the Devs obviously all playing engineers sitting in ground people to join their maps so they can kill people unable to shoot or move for the duration of the fight.

    totally a dissapointment.
    Honestly, I still can't say the holds bother me. Yeah I'd love it if melee holds weren't spammable, but I move around enough that the rifle-butt monkeys don't usually hit me. The Science holds are a bit annoying, but I don't seem to die more often because of them (as compared to fighting any other class).

    1-1, holds don't make or break a fight. In team vs. team the holds play a role, but both sides can counter them and both sides are likely to have them. The only time holds really TRIBBLE me is when I'm outnumbered, but I shouldn't expect to win when I'm outnumbered anyway.

    I don't play a character that gets holds, and I mostly avoid weapons with a hold, but holds don't really bother me. The only one that bugs me is melee spam, and that only because I'm certain that players who only use a single key should not be successful in PvP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    In the new shanty town map I noticed it is more difficult to get a kill shot off when targets are exposed. Not sure if this is part of a function change or simply how the terrain gives players a lot of cover to duck behind and avoid the kill shot. There were some really great fights in Shanty Town last night, the turrents on both sides add a unique element that forces better situational awareness.

    I constantly ground PvP in STO on my Klingon Semtuk, and the balance in ground PvP is remarkable. The biggest issue is that most players aren't any good because they don't play with their teammates, and give up before learning how to play within the system. Players who spend no points in ground expect to be as good as players who spend tons of points on ground, and then after getting kicked around the 0 skill spenders complain about the system. Way too many people think ground PvP should be played like PvE - particularly too many Fed Engineers have this mentality.

    Ground PvP is fine, just unpopular due to inexperience and the lack of objective based episodes. There are probably only 2 tweaks that could be done to improve the system. (1) Do not allow people to be exposed when at more than half shields, and (2) never by someone more than 20 meters away.

    The biggest turn off I see is players at full health/shields being exposed by someone else far off in the distance and then getting one shot from long range while the guy getting killed was previously behind cover. I have no problem with the one shots, because it happens to everyone, but some of the circumstances it happens does leave me thinking the system can be improved.

    In general though, ground PvP is balanced but is difficult to do well. It does not need a massive overhaul, but ground PvP has a terrible reputation by many inexperienced players who never spent a point in ground, expect it to be as easy as against the AI, and don't understand why the combination of inexperience and no skill bonuses leads to them getting beat up badly.

    I still don't understand how people will rush 4-5 enemies and expect to wipe out the enemy, then after the match complain how ground PvP in STO is bad. What PvP game is so stupid that 1 guy can rush into the middle of 4-5 enemies and start kicking butt regardless of the skill of the other players? The expectations of some people how something should work when it comes to ground PvP often doesn't make sense to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Oh and the addition of 10v10 in Shanty Town is a nice touch. I haven't been in one, but I imagine with good players on both sides the battles will be epic. If one side doesn't have enough good players though, it will be a massacre.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Melee attacks should have knockback instead of expose and grant the victim a short immunity to knockdowns so it cant be spammed. problem with melee is that it lock the victim up unable to move at all.

    weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown both works 1 sec difference makes it to easy to keep people permanently out of combat unless going with melee, that result in melee spam fest again locking people up even more. another option is to make WM only work on active weapon and not every weapon the victim have owned at once that enable people to change weapon and continue to fight while their first choice is disabled.

    stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity that leaves them viable as crowd control tools but not completely spamm button win.
    The biggest problem is actually root that dont break on damage at all, just root someone in a thermal vent or a grenade cloud and watch them die withut able to move away or do anything from stun effects.

    but the biggest problem is held weapons escpecially when 5 people all use them, 5% chance easily increased with traits is a lot when a gun fire every .25 sec throw in with a 100% +2 hold for secondary attacks and you can easily keep someone locked down while a team mate pick them to death with a fork .

    this will be fixed most easy after a 2 sec hold grant a 10 sec immunity to hold and people will fast stop using it.

    Every skill that is able to take people out 100% of the time from a combat is bad in the long run for the game. the easiest way to fix this is to grant victims immunities to what they just got hit by for a limited time afterwards that will fast stop any point in spamming any ability to the same victim over and over.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Its ded because there is a praticular exploit regaring weppons that anyone can do and they wont change
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    Melee attacks should have knockback instead of expose and grant the victim a short immunity to knockdowns so it cant be spammed. problem with melee is that it lock the victim up unable to move at all.

    I agree this could be tweaked, but it needs to be thought out. Melee expose is not a bad thing, because there are a number of ways to push people away from you (even racial traits do this). Perhaps it should only be allowed for melee weapons or fists or perhaps require skill points to be effective. It would be useful if there was a greater variety of melee weapons. Where is Sulu's fencing sword, for example.
    WUB wrote:
    weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown both works 1 sec difference makes it to easy to keep people permanently out of combat unless going with melee, that result in melee spam fest again locking people up even more. another option is to make WM only work on active weapon and not every weapon the victim have owned at once that enable people to change weapon and continue to fight while their first choice is disabled.

    Weapons Malfunction is not broken, equipment diagnostics is. ED should not have twice the cooldown as the WM, because no one heals others in groups because of the long cooldown of ED. WM has diminishing returns on reuse against the same target and can be cured by any engineer with a specific kit ability, so it is hardly as overpowering as you suggest. It should be noted people can still use kit skills while under WM, and use melee.
    WUB wrote:
    stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity that leaves them viable as crowd control tools but not completely spam button win.

    Spam "win button?" Clearly you are a newbie or have not played much at high level. At high lvl pvp stasis field is not a "win button" at all, it is exactly as you describe a crowd control ability that almost always requires teammates to get a quick kill. A stun phaser can ruin a science guys day 1v1 if they are counting on stasis field to be their "win button" at high level. Me thinks this is an experience problem, not a balance issue. I can't remember dieing to a solo science guy throwing around stasis field at tier 5 unless I was being tagged by a bunch of folks at once... which is how a good team should work together.
    WUB wrote:
    The biggest problem is actually root that dont break on damage at all, just root someone in a thermal vent or a grenade cloud and watch them die without able to move away or do anything from stun effects.

    But you can still take actions while rooted. I can shoot, heal, use my kit, etc., and root does no actual damage. Movement is important, no doubt, which is why root is useful, but again it is hardly a death nail. Root is how teams can get kills, but it still requires teamwork. The key to getting past root is to disable the person actually doing damage to you until root wears off. Most people who get rooted lose situational awareness and don't see who is dealing damage to them (an experience issue). The cooldown doesn't allow for anyone to chain root.
    WUB wrote:
    but the biggest problem is held weapons especially when 5 people all use them, 5% chance easily increased with traits is a lot when a gun fire every .25 sec throw in with a 100% +2 hold for secondary attacks and you can easily keep someone locked down while a team mate pick them to death with a fork .

    No way, and this is proof you are a newbie. I prefer facing teams like this, because stun deals no significant damage at all and one large hypo can wash away the work of 5 stun boys. It is easy to tank a stun group while your teammates wipe them out. This is 100% an experience issue or specific to playing with a bad team.
    WUB wrote:
    this will be fixed most easy after a 2 sec hold grant a 10 sec immunity to hold and people will fast stop using it.

    Bad idea. This is nothing more than inexperience talking. Your idea will kill teamwork in PvP in a MMO game. Think about it.
    WUB wrote:
    Every skill that is able to take people out 100% of the time from a combat is bad in the long run for the game. the easiest way to fix this is to grant victims immunities to what they just got hit by for a limited time afterward that will fast stop any point in spamming any ability to the same victim over and over.

    There is no skill that takes people out 100% of the time. If there was no one would ground PvP, and there would be a super class in ground PvP. There is no super class in PvP, the only argument that can be made is that there are super teams because they 1) work together and 2) each member understands how to maximize their kit within the team they are in.

    There is no ability or kit that can be spammed to the same victim over and over unless you are talking about something like 3-5 vs 1, in which case your argument is the very silly case that 1 person shouldn't die fast solo to 3-5 enemies who are concentrating powers on a single target.

    Please play ground PvP for longer than a day and know what you are talking about before making suggestions, it would be more meaningful. The balance of high lvl ground PvP is remarkable in STO, the weak link in ground PvP is almost always player inexperience or a bad team.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Its ded because there is a praticular exploit regaring weppons that anyone can do and they wont change

    I play ground PvP every day, and do not know about this mythical weapon exploit. You are rumor mongering a bunch of nonsense.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    weapon malfunction shorter duration or longer cooldown...

    stasis field and hold should break on damage and grant victim a short duration immunity...

    Will Tacticals get a cooldown timer on their passive damage bonus from their Ground Traits?

    I always hear Tacticals complain about WM and Science Holds, but what do they want? To make everyone just stand there in front of them, shooting back and forth? They passively do more damage than the other guy by using skill points, so they win in 3-4 (non-exposed) shots. Sounds real fun.

    Lets nerf rolling and make cover non-blocking too.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Darksided wrote: »
    I play ground PvP every day, and do not know about this mythical weapon exploit. You are rumor mongering a bunch of nonsense.

    either you prefer quick run overs while you use your engineer science skills to the full and would hate to see the advantages it gives you taken away.

    Since Beta i have done characters with doing quests, i have leveled 4 characters up with primary ground and space pvp.

    That you claim that Weapon malfunction is not broken proves it all. there is 1 second longer cooldown than duration and as you said it yourself the cure for it have way longer cooldown, that itself makes it unbalanced.

    you talk about hypos washing away, that entered last patch yet you sound like you been using it since beta. and all your suggestions to improve a pvp that in your eyes is perfect as it is would actually help your engineer and science skills even more.

    No exposes to people with full shields? Now what class fix those again, going to hide behind stims again with a new cooldown that makes you use two every minute or so.
    now what about your statment regarding this

    "There is no skill that takes people out 100% of the time. If there was no one would ground PvP, and there would be a super class in ground PvP. There is no super class in PvP, the only argument that can be made is that there are super teams because they 1) work together and 2) each member understands how to maximize their kit within the team they are in."

    have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.

    Don't patronize me, regarding pvp experience and think you make a strong case, i was most likely pvp'ing in mmo's before you where born, and in all games i have played there have been people like you, telling thousands of people that think a game is not good or fair that it is, that changing it would be a bad idea.

    You as them are terrified it will change or terrified broken items you depend on will actually be fixed.

    And before you go on with a new newbie rant to prove your superiority, let me tell you i played Federation and klingon and all classes on both sides. I can easily log in to the game and take adavantage of the things i think need changes, but i want good fun fights no matter what class i play not an easy win at all cost. I leave that to your kind.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    either you prefer quick run overs while you use your engineer science skills to the full and would hate to see the advantages it gives you taken away.
    Engineers and Science officers both do jack for damage. With either of those, it takes several minutes to get a kill without getting an exploit. DPS is the advantage Tactical officers get, but most tend to overlook the fact that they can burn through shields and health with regular weapon damage alone.
    That you claim that Weapon malfunction is not broken proves it all. there is 1 second longer cooldown than duration and as you said it yourself the cure for it have way longer cooldown, that itself makes it unbalanced.
    If you use a shield charge, a lone Engineer can't kill you in the time your weapons are gone (unless they get an exploit). And after the first time, the second has less than a third of the duration.

    If you stand there while an Engineer and his buddy both DPS you then yeah, you're done for. Then again, you were already done when you tried fighting 1-2.
    you talk about hypos washing away, that entered last patch yet you sound like you been using it since beta.
    So you're ignoring the fix so you can go on complaining about something which used to be broken?
    No exposes to people with full shields? Now what class fix those again, going to hide behind stims again with a new cooldown that makes you use two every minute or so.
    now what about your statment regarding this
    This I agree with. My tac officer is almost always down shields a bit (unless someone is healing her), which my engineer is eternally at full shields.

    I could maybe get on board with limiting exposes to 20 yards though. Honestly I think the expose/exploit thing is fine; 2 of the 3 classes are difficult to kill or to get kills with except through exploits.
    have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.
    You're really obsessed with stun pistols; they aren't that great.

    I sometimes use a stun pistol with my Tac officer, but she's specced for pistol DPS so it works decently. Stun pistol is good either for 1-1 fights or for putting a hold on someone before they exploit a buddy. the problem is that the stun shot is such low damage that there is a very high chance of the target's shields regenerating before you land your next damaging shot.

    I generally prefer dual pistols on my Tac officer. The look cool, but also an AOE expose with decent damage but no hold is usually more useful than a single target expose with a hold and crappy damage. You have a better chance of proccing an expose the more times you attempt it, so in Team vs. Team fights it's almost always better to use AOEs which have a chance of exposing multiple targets at once.

    On my Engineer I don't bother with stun pistols at all; the damage just isn't good enough. Yeah, it ****es people off, but I'd rather kill my enemies than annoy them.

    On both of my characters I usually live through the holds, even before the change to hypos. Holds mean your attacker has reduced DPS.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You misunderstand a few things Inktomi19d

    let me clarify it. Rifle spamming not only hold you but it stuns you as well so someone spamming it in narrow corridors might keep you locked forvever, it serve no purpose unless they get lucky and get an expose but its kinda boring pvp, and when 5 people run in and do nothing else it makes boring matches.

    people rifle spamm for two reasons either frustration or to get exposes for what used to be one shot kills (not anymore thankfully, least not allways)

    same reason is the stun pistols used to keep people unable to move or do any actions until exposed, usually in combination with a few that use the back of their rifles at the same time.

    when it comes to Weapon malfunction i think its one of very few abilities that have lower cooldown than duration (or equal) they prolly had a good reason for it but i fail to see it. 22 sec or as now 15 sec is very long time in a pvp heated battle and if your loaded with two guns (no melee) starting rifle spamm is your only option and that usually lead to the above situation.

    its not a problem to live trough a hold, what is boring is to live trough 7-8 holds in a row since its the only thing you can do, the changes of simms to break out is good, but compared to cooldowns on most ground abilities 30 sec seam a bit much, but then again we have to consider healing effects. with lowered dps in general lowering healing stim cooldown might make batle way to long again. perhaps we need some special stimms designed to remove effects and not depend on the healing ones and give those a cooldown of 15 or 20 sec to bring them more in pair with cooldowns of abilities.

    I dont want to remove abilities for the abilities of their own, i want to make the game more fun and create less situations that end in suicide spamming feast with no other purpose than to annoy the other side.

    But in all honesty first step would probably to fix the very broken queue system and make crowd control abilities break on damage.

    but your right in one thing tactical should be on top dps wise thats their forte, but its easier to get higher numbers on my science or engineer.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    let me clarify it. Rifle spamming not only hold you but it stuns you as well so someone spamming it in narrow corridors might keep you locked forvever
    Wrong. This game does have hold immunity timers. They don't do what you'd think because different holds seem to be on different timers, but rifle spam will not keep someone "stun locked". After you land one rifle melee hold on them, you won't be able to land another one right away.

    My answer to rifle melee spammers is (depending on my weaponry)
    a) Stun them and backpedal
    b) Shoot them and backpedal
    c) Rifle melee them right back until I get a hold on them, then backpedal and shoot them

    Never get into a "rifle melee competition" where you both just spam back and forth. You should be backing away from people like this and shooting them as you go.

    Rifle spammers used to annoy me because they killed me so often. These days they just annoy me because they're so stupid. You should kill them more often than they kill you. (Rifle melee spam is this game's "zergling rush" -- it works against the newbies and makes you look cool but when you get to pro level gameplay it's going to make you look like a fool.)


    Regarding stun pistols, the main reason to use one is, of course, to delay a particular target. I use stun pistols sometimes when I'm outnumbered, to stun the lead player that's chasing me as I run away. It's also handy to pop someone as they come out of cover in the hopes your team can focus them down quickly.

    That said, I rarely go for a stun pistol. There are better weapons to expose with if that's your primary goal, and better weapons to do DPS with if that's your goal. Stun pistols have a very specific, limited use. It's a good use but it's not a gun for every circumstance.


    Regarding weapon malfunction -- the same kit that causes it is the same kit that cures it, so if your team has engineers you can counter weapon malfunction on a 1:1 basis. Better than 1:1 now that there are consumable cures.

    When weapon malfunction really gets me down, though, I swap in a bat'leth. Once you're good with the bat'leth it's really not a terrible weapon. It's certainly better than standing around with a sparking gun. It takes practice to get good with the bat'leth, though, and you need to understand the combos.


    I do think Weapon Malfunction should only break the special attacks, though, and let the player continue to do regular attacks. Or maybe it should double the weapon's cooldown timers but still allow it to fire. I'm just saying, it's not really an "OMGWTF" ability. Usually when people put weapons malfunction on me I just focus on my kit abilities or I run around trying to rifle butt everyone on their team.
    but your right in one thing tactical should be on top dps wise thats their forte, but its easier to get higher numbers on my science or engineer.

    That seems...unlikely. My tactical has always been the #1 scorer on any ground PvP mission. In fact, I frequently outscore science officers and engineers when I'm using a bat'leth (for fun) and they're using rifles. You do need full ground combat training in the weapon of your choice, though.

    The only people who outscore my tactical in damage dealt when I'm using rifles is another tactical, and that's rare enough.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    have you played pvp at all or have you never seen a stun phaser all that time you built up your superior pvp experience. I bet you use one as first attack weapon even with your sniper rifle in the belt ready for when the expose hits.

    Sometimes, yes I do open with a stun shot. It is one of three effective beginning tactics for using the technician kit. I guess I am exploiting because I consider this one of my successful tactical approaches?

    Every engineer should carry a stun weapon, because engineers do not have a stun ability that comes with their kits. Using a stun weapon as an engineer isn't a balance issue, that's how to play the class with the kits they have.
    WUB wrote:
    Don't patronize me, regarding pvp experience and think you make a strong case, i was most likely pvp'ing in mmo's before you where born, and in all games i have played there have been people like you, telling thousands of people that think a game is not good or fair that it is, that changing it would be a bad idea.

    A boast like that could be accurate pointed towards anyone else, but this isn't your lucky day. As a former Origin employee who helped play test and develop UO PvP beginning in 1996-1997 alpha, I would be the guy who has been PvPing longer in MMOs - as I assisted in the development of the first PvP MMO Ultima Online. But that really has nothing to do with the point.

    Making changes to a system that is balanced needs to be well thought out, because the worst thing that can happen is to break the existing balance. Ability/Kit/Faction Balance isn't really the issue in STO ground PvP, the issues in ground PvP are more subtle IMO.

    For example, there is no easy way to be a healer in STO. I have to work to shield heal a friend as an engineer or potentially open myself up to WM to pass on a ED to someone whose been hit. Have you ever noticed how science folks only use AOE heals (if they have a heal at all) because the target heals are hard as hell to use effectively? This points to a more general problem, the PvP system in general (but it is more obvious in ground than in space) in STO does not favor teamwork in any of its abilities. Being a good team mate in STO is hard as hell, and one can point back to the Equipment Diagnostics issue we are discussing as another such example.

    Science folks can remove exposes from themselves. Wouldn't it be nice if they could do that easily for teammates who are standing stunned around them? Think about how many of the annoying ground PvP aspects are specific to not having a potential counter by the guy standing next to you. In most PvP games, if you are in trouble and I'm right there, I can take an immediate action to do something potentially useful about it and help someone out regardless of my class/character. STO - not so much.
    WUB wrote:
    You as them are terrified it will change or terrified broken items you depend on will actually be fixed.

    I do not agree with your assessment of the problem with ground PvP, that isn't the same as saying that improvements shouldn't be made.

    There are no significant balance issues in STO ground PvP because each class has a strength and weakness, and no class overpowers another. That is by definition what every MMO wants in PvP. Balance is not an Ivory Tower.

    For example, weapons malfunction a tactical has a bigger impact in preventing them from shooting, but if they have points in a melee skill a WM tactical will 100% of the time hit my engineer in melee before I can hit them - thus leaving me the one stunned and potentially exposed. These give and takes must count for something, and I believe they do. Weapons malfunction effectiveness is reduced each subsequent use against the same target. It also has a specific kit ability cure. These are existing drawback of WM. How can a debuff that can be specifically fixed and comes with diminishing returns already be overpowered? If you use it, you know it isn't the "I win" button, otherwise I'd be the greatest PvPer in STO (and I'm hardly that).

    So what is the issue? Well, I believe the problem isn't Weapons Malfunction, it is Equipment Diagnostics, which should not have such a long cool down so it would be useful in helping other teammates.

    As designed, I believe the entire STO ground PvP system has a perception of being broken because of the rather powerful offensive bonuses that are achieved by teamwork that are balanced against the complete absence of defensive bonuses that are achieved with teamwork. All the skill/ability/race trait/etc nerfs in the world will not make STO ground PvP more fun for people until offensive teamwork can be balanced against defensive teamwork in an effective way.

    I think that is the only fairly obvious problem with ground PvP. Most of the other issues are usually a byproduct of that core problem. In other words, people who suggest nerfing this or that haven't really studied the problem, they are focused on the symptoms (and I accuse you of doing exactly that). Since you are a self proclaimed super MMO vet PvPer, perhaps this post will give you something to consider you had previously not examined thoroughly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    When someone equip a melee weapon or go out unarmed they plan to do melee, rifle butt however was probably designed to get away from melee types so they could continue shooting. But people use it as their primary attack to get expose so they can shoot their one exloit secondary attack.

    Yes it's a symptom, i still dont think removing Hold and expose (lesser the second actually) and keep knockback and add a short imunity to knockdown from rifle butt to victims would do anything than improve the overall of the game.

    It don't change any balance it hit everyone equally, and people have to make a clear choice if they are going to be shooters or melee specilists least in that slot.

    nor does i think bringing special abilities that break the general rule in line with other abilities, any ability that have a duration equal to cooldown is in reality without any cooldown at all. A cooldown should allways outweight the effect if not you have a single hit button tactic going. And since you have UO experience you know this from the early spells there, root wait hit, root wait hit. people even macroed it and leveled with computers running and they on vacations. but enough about UO it pionered and oh well today we all would laugh if they had released something like it.

    The symptom is that in some maps especially lower levels you can find 10 people running in circles around eachother trying to see who can hit the harest with the back of their guns.

    This symptom need to be adressed since it makes people leave maps half done from boredom and the other hlaf sitting forever waiting for a new victim to enter they all can knock silly with their guns and the only shot fired is the one that exploit the exposed new arrival.

    I been on both sides of the table and in all honesty none of them are much fun in the long run, when the inital hillarious laugh is over its back to boredom again, fixing queues are a priority so maps allways start balanced in numbers. removing rifle but as primary melee attack should be next on the list, how can be discussed but as you said before if you want to swing use a knife or sword or club or a squeeking tribble just dont depend on your firearms for clubbing your oponent to death.


    Somone mentioned there is several types of hold and all have their own immunities there is no other explanation to how we sometimes get held without ability to move at all and if we use anything to break it we are emediately held again or if there is any immunity at all involved.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Darksided wrote: »

    So what is the issue? Well, I believe the problem isn't Weapons Malfunction, it is Equipment Diagnostics, which should not have such a long cool down so it would be useful in helping other teammates.

    Weapon batteries have a 15 second cooldown and clear Weapon Malfunction now, so I don't really see it as an issue. I do think the engy cleanse should be an aoe though.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The refresh cooldown between shots is terrible... We need to be able to kill fast against groups... Don't slow us down... The worst thing you can do is make as simple as "the biggest number wins" and that's what happens when you make it tougher for us to shoot...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    WUB wrote:
    what you want a focus on, new ships new clothes are all good, but this game orbit pvp, ground and space, everyone knows the bugs what work and what dont work in pvp. good pvp games are the close ones, no one have fun if they cant shoot move or do anything but being target practise for a unbalanced pvp match.

    there is some serious issues that needed focus with pvp, and they seam to have missed every single one of them, the queues for one its still 5 vs 1 matches because people get impatient and do other things while waiting and don't leave the queues when they enter other maps or do missions or even go afk. so yes this was what i was looking for with a expansion that supposedly was going to fix pvp.

    in the long run it dont really matter what uniform i have when im held held held and cant move it only makes me a prettier corpse.
    Agrees 100%.
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